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AaronHorrocks
06-14-2012, 6:17 PM
A friend of mine is in the movie business, and got a deal to shoot 'X' number of movies over 'Y' number of years.

And I'm the guy he wants to build him rifles, such as military firearms, AK types, AR types, M2HB, whatever the movie calls for.

Now before the guy starts cutting me checks, should I apply for an "Assault Weapon" Permit?

Being in the movie biz, is basically the only way to get this permit, so I hear. ;)

However, I wonder, do I give up any freedom or privacy in doing so?
Does this permit give the CA DOJ a free pass to come to my house and search the premises and my safe?
Is the permit expensive?
Does the permit need to be renewed annually?

What's the whole jist?

safewaysecurity
06-14-2012, 6:19 PM
Screw that, now you can prolly get some full auto class 3 into Cali.

Intimid8tor
06-14-2012, 6:34 PM
Are you already an FFL? The feds might require you to be one if you are not?

AaronHorrocks
06-14-2012, 6:41 PM
Why would the Feds require me to be an FFL, before the CA DOJ issues me an AW permit?

wildhawker
06-14-2012, 6:49 PM
You're in Jason Davis territory. Call him first, second, and third.

Southern California:
Mr. Jason Davis
Davis and Associates
27281 Las Ramblas, Suite 200
Mission Viejo, CA 92691
info@calgunlawyers.com
T: 949.310.0817
F: 949.288.6894

-Brandon

A friend of mine is in the movie business, and got a deal to shoot 'X' number of movies over 'Y' number of years.

And I'm the guy he wants to build him rifles, such as military firearms, AK types, AR types, M2HB, whatever the movie calls for.

Now before the guy starts cutting me checks, should I apply for an "Assault Weapon" Permit?

Being in the movie biz, is basically the only way to get this permit, so I hear. ;)

However, I wonder, do I give up any freedom or privacy in doing so?
Does this permit give the CA DOJ a free pass to come to my house and search the premises and my safe?
Is the permit expensive?
Does the permit need to be renewed annually?

What's the whole jist?

bwiese
06-14-2012, 6:50 PM
AW permit for FFLs are discretionary
DOJ sure as hell ain't gonna issue AW permit till you have FFL + are member of Centralized List ("CA FFL"). You'd be gunsmithing so you need
an FFL anyway.
AW permit requires add't security (safes/rooms etc.)
expensive - tax/fees on inventory
to remotely have a chance, you'd have to be perceived as 'serious',
which is unlikely to be achieved by a fresh FFL


You need to consult to Jason Davis to get right with the world.

Intimid8tor
06-14-2012, 6:56 PM
Why would the Feds require me to be an FFL, before the CA DOJ issues me an AW permit?

Because you are gunsmithing for business which requires and FFL. Also, why would the CA DOJ give you a permit if you don't have an FFL?

I am just guessing, but bweise made some good points and recommendations.

Alan Block
06-14-2012, 7:10 PM
There are several companies that rent weapons of all kinds to movie productions. This seems like the obvious solution.

ICONIC
06-14-2012, 7:14 PM
All the major prop houses in the industry either have an armorer or work with an armorer. You have to have an FFL due to being able to manufacture and import firearms. To just start as an armorer is going to be hard to do. The only way I know how is through an apprenticeship with an armorer.

curtisfong
06-14-2012, 7:41 PM
This is showbiz you are talking about. You can't do jack squat unless you know somebody who knows somebody. The system is entirely corrupt. The whole thing is set up to make it hard for outsiders to get anywhere.

Unless you know an armorer or two personally *and* some hollywood heavy hitters *and* donate a ton of money to your local corrupt congressman and CLEO, you are SOL.

AaronHorrocks
06-14-2012, 9:15 PM
You'd be gunsmithing so you need
an FFL anyway.

Why do I need an FFL to do gunsmithing work?


Also, why would the CA DOJ give you a permit if you don't have an FFL?

So what are you saying? Individuals can't get one? I didn't see that in the law anywhere.

There are several companies that rent weapons of all kinds to movie productions. This seems like the obvious solution.

He specifically wants to use ME, because I already have an impressive collection, and I lean on the side of older military firearms, which are hard to find in a modern tacticool picatinny-rail-on-everything world.

All the major prop houses in the industry either have an armorer or work with an armorer. You have to have an FFL due to being able to manufacture and import firearms. To just start as an armorer is going to be hard to do. The only way I know how is through an apprenticeship with an armorer.

I manufacture firearms already... and I have no interest to import any. Yes, it's highly skilled work, which requires lots of specialized tools. Both of which I already have.

This is showbiz you are talking about. You can't do jack squat unless you know somebody who knows somebody. The system is entirely corrupt. The whole thing is set up to make it hard for outsiders to get anywhere.

Unless you know an armorer or two personally *and* some hollywood heavy hitters *and* donate a ton of money to your local corrupt congressman and CLEO, you are SOL.

He's the somebody I know. Yes, I know it's corrupt.

I'm basically an armourer already. I don't care for most other people's work because of their lack of attention to detail. It's not hollywood.

wildhawker
06-14-2012, 9:17 PM
So, since you seem to be ignoring it [and the counsel of reasonable and informed people], let me quote my own post in spite of how much I hate to do so:

You're in Jason Davis territory. Call him first, second, and third.

Southern California:
Mr. Jason Davis
Davis and Associates
27281 Las Ramblas, Suite 200
Mission Viejo, CA 92691
info@calgunlawyers.com
T: 949.310.0817
F: 949.288.6894

-Brandon

stix213
06-14-2012, 9:31 PM
Why do I need an FFL to do gunsmithing work?


Gunsmithing for personal use and gunsmithing as part of a business are not the same thing.


So what are you saying? Individuals can't get one? I didn't see that in the law anywhere.


The permit is discretionary. You need to convince a government that doesn't want to give it to anyone to give it to you, not just meet some minimum requirement written in law.

Intimid8tor
06-14-2012, 9:34 PM
Why do I need an FFL to do gunsmithing work?

From the ATF Website.

Q: Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?

Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.

[27 CFR 478.11]




I manufacture firearms already... and I have no interest to import any. Yes, it's highly skilled work, which requires lots of specialized tools. Both of which I already have.

From the ATF Website again.

An individual acquires frames or receivers and assembles firearms for his personal use, not for sale or distribution.

The individual is not manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution and is not required to be a licensed manufacturer.




See responses in the quote. I made it big so it couldn't be missed. The internet is your friend. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html

AaronHorrocks
06-14-2012, 9:51 PM
So, since you seem to be ignoring it [and the counsel of reasonable and informed people], let me quote my own post in spite of how much I hate to do so:

I am not ignoring you. I am not about to call him at 8:30 at night. That would be rude.

See responses in the quote. I made it big so it couldn't be missed. The internet is your friend. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html

Does not apply.

joefreas
06-14-2012, 10:03 PM
Sure bro apply away-

Quiet
06-14-2012, 10:29 PM
Why do I need an FFL to do gunsmithing work?
Because it's required by law.

Per CA laws [PC 16630], a gunsmith requires a FFL.
Ergo, if you do not have a FFL & a business license as a "gunsmith", you are not legally a gunsmith.




Penal Code 16630
As used in this part, "gunsmith" means any person who is licensed as a dealer pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, who is engaged primarily in the business of repairing firearms, or making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or the agent or employee of that person.

AaronHorrocks
06-14-2012, 10:34 PM
None of my questions in my first post have even been touched.

Quiet: So I guess everyone that's hosting an "AK Build Party" needs to get an FFL. Seriously? :rolleyes:

Ubermcoupe
06-14-2012, 10:38 PM
None of my questions in my first post have even been touched.

/snip/

Quiet: So I guess everyone that's hosting an "AK Build Party" needs to get an FFL. Seriously? :rolleyes:

AK build parties are all done by the individuals who are conducting such event AND they have ATF/Legal papers to prove so.

If you engage in a business (and profit from said business) in the industry of “gunsmithing” as defined by the ATF and caught, you’re screwed.

The “answers” that have be given apply to 2A stuff.
Your questions should be really proposed in the FFL forum BECAUSE you’re going to need an FFL.

However, I wonder, do I give up any freedom or privacy in doing so?
Does this permit give the CA DOJ a free pass to come to my house and search the premises and my safe?
Is the permit expensive?
Does the permit need to be renewed annually?

If you figure out a way to get a DW permit as an individual, you will be the first to do so in about 12 years...

killmime1234
06-14-2012, 10:39 PM
I don't think the OP realizes what he's asking for. It sounds like he thinks that the DOJ might just issue an AW permit to joe citizen who gives a good enough reason such as for the movies (it dorsn'y work like that). He seems to also believe that since he's likely built some of the firearms in his personal collection (this is legal), he could just build some more and "rent" them to the movie studio without needing a license (this isn't).

Kestryll
06-14-2012, 10:41 PM
Quiet: So I guess everyone that's hosting an "AK Build Party" needs to get an FFL. Seriously? :rolleyes:

No, they are making them for personal use/ownership, you would be making them for sale/rental.

There is a difference between a private citizen making an AK for themselves and someone making them for commercial purposes.

Quiet
06-14-2012, 10:48 PM
However, I wonder, do I give up any freedom or privacy in doing so? yes
Does this permit give the CA DOJ a free pass to come to my house and search the premises and my safe? yes
Is the permit expensive? yes
Does the permit need to be renewed annually? yes

What's the whole jist?

Propmasters obtain assault weapons via a Dangerous Weapons Permit (DWP) for an Assault Weapon (AW).

In order to obtain one you need a "good cause".
For use as a prop in the movie/tv industry is a viable "good cause", but you need (not your backer, but you) the backings/endorsement of a major studio for CA DOJ to accept this as a valid "good cause".

Individuals can not apply for a Dangerous Weapons Permit, only a business and the business needs to have a FFL.

Application for a DWP is $321 for the first and $22 for each additional permit.
You need one permit per Dangerous Weapon.

If you do obtain a DWP, annual renewal fee ($165-$1500) will be dependent upon your inventory size.

All Dangerous Weapons in your inventory needs to be registered with CA DOJ.

All vehicles that will be used to transport the Dangerous Weapons in your inventory needs to be registered with CA DOJ.

All locations where the Dangerous Weapons in your inventory will be stored needs to be registered with CA DOJ.

You must report all movie/tv events that used your Dangerous Weapons to CA DOJ.
Requires make/model/serial number of Dangerous Weapon and location of the event and name of the production company the event was for.

As a DWP holder, your business will be subject to compliance inspection audits. Done yearly, usually one scheduled and one suprise.

Failure to register any Dangerous Weapon in your inventory, transport a Dangerous Weapon in a non-registered vehicle, storing the Dangerous Weapon in a non-registered location, failing to report all events that used your Dangerous Weapons and using the Dangerous Weapons in a way not covered under your "good cause" is grounds to have your DWP revoked, your entire inventory confiscated and you fined for non-compliance.

Ubermcoupe
06-14-2012, 10:50 PM
IIRC, the registered vehicle needs to have a strong box or secure way of storing said DWs when not in use.

Shooting Galley just aired an expose about a hollywood gun/prop house; http://issprops.com/
http://www.downrange.tv/blog/shooting-gallery-hollywood-guns/13474/ (link to the episode ad)

Aside from calling J.Davis, I am sure this prop house could offer you some advice. :shrug:
Best of Luck in the process.

Quiet
06-14-2012, 10:55 PM
IIRC, the registered vehicle needs to have a strong box or secure way of storing said DWs when not in use.

Correct.

And when transporting Dangerous Weapons, you need to travel directly to and from an event location and the storage site. No side stops/trips. No driving around for the fun of it.

I am sure this prop house could offer you some advice. :shrug:

They will suggest/insist you apprentice under an existing propmaster first, so that you get to know what the deal is.
You also need to join their union.

Quiet: So I guess everyone that's hosting an "AK Build Party" needs to get an FFL. Seriously? :rolleyes:
Kestryll answered this in post #21.

Per Federal and CA state laws, there is a difference between making for personal use and making for commerical use.

mud99
06-14-2012, 10:57 PM
Or you could just shoot the movie in Nevada or Arizona.

five.five-six
06-14-2012, 10:59 PM
Or you could just shoot the movie in Nevada or Arizona.



That's probably the most reasonable suggestion so far.

Quiet
06-14-2012, 11:01 PM
Or you could just shoot the movie in Nevada or Arizona.

Need a business license in NV/AZ to do so.

In addition, NV/AZ requires film permits and insurance.

curtisfong
06-15-2012, 12:06 AM
I'm basically an armourer already.

Trust me, you aren't in the way that is important.

If you were a show biz armorer, you wouldn't be here asking how to become one.

Alan Block
06-15-2012, 12:18 AM
I was just suggesting your producer friend go to one of the prop houses that handles weapons instead of having you build them. Whoever equipped Band of Brothers certainly can get their hands on enough of anything. I realize this cuts you out of the gravy train but maybe you can be a Best Boy or Gaffers assistant.

socalbowhunter
06-15-2012, 12:37 AM
I manufacture firearms already...

And you don't have an FFL? You might want to add, "for personal use".

Ford8N
06-15-2012, 5:56 AM
This is showbiz you are talking about. You can't do jack squat unless you know somebody who knows somebody. The system is entirely corrupt. The whole thing is set up to make it hard for outsiders to get anywhere.

Unless you know an armorer or two personally *and* some hollywood heavy hitters *and* donate a ton of money to your local corrupt congressman and CLEO, you are SOL.

^^^ This

You have to realize, your dealing with a corrupt state government too. Your seeing how the system is set up in California, the rulers totally fear firearms in the hands of their serfs. It's not fair, but it's the way it is, nothing can be done about it. Just remember this next time you hear people talking about how we are all citizens of the United States and the Constitution is the rule of the land, including California. :puke:

Don29palms
06-15-2012, 7:20 AM
I always love these kind of threads. Someone poses a question and then argues with all the advice given to him. This is another post that proves there is no cure for stupidity.

OP,
Since it seems you know all the answers then go get your permits and licenses and move on with your career. Best of luck to you in your endeavors.

Mesa Tactical
06-15-2012, 9:13 AM
OP's gonna do what he's gonna do.

We have been interested in an AW permit for some years, since (for example) putting a collapsing stock on a semi-auto shotgun makes it an AW. While we wouldn't have had any problem manufacturing and selling stocks that would not be legal to use in California, there's no legal route for us to actually test the stocks or photograph them here in California.

Anyway, we got the forms years ago. There seemed to be a lot of requirements for police endorsements, though now all they want are "references." Back in the day, that put us out of the running, though now, with all the LEO business we do, we could pursue it with a real possibility of success. It's not something I would attempt without the assistance of an attorney, however. Just one of the things on our To-do list (and, yes, an FFL is the first requirement).

Chuck Michel has a PDF of the California DoJ information packet and California Dangerous Weapons License Application required for persons to obtain a permit/license to lawfully sell, manufacture, etc assault weapons, short barreled shotguns/rifles, machine guns, and/or destructive devices. You can download it here (http://www.calgunlaws.com/Docs/ASSAULT%20WEAPONS/Agency%20Corr/DWPERMIT.pdf).

Dirtbiker
06-15-2012, 9:20 AM
Sorry Arron, this isn't happening without a lot of $ and about 2 years of paperwork...

I'd get a job through him to work as an on set consultant. This way you can join the stunt workers union, maybe even get your SAG card. Use this as a stepping stone to get into movies.

Falconis
06-15-2012, 10:36 AM
Your friend wants to hire you for your firearms right? You would be doing firearm things for him such as armoring and smithing right? Sounds like a business where you need an FFL. If you want to play cute games you can call the attorney later or call him now and get squared away from the start. The latter is a lot less stressful.

series11
06-18-2012, 10:28 AM
Wow, After reading all of this I want even more to move to a more gun friendly state.... or hope that the government changes...(Never will happen in this hippie "peace" loving state)

Bhobbs
06-18-2012, 11:21 AM
Wow, After reading all of this I want even more to move to a more gun friendly state.... or hope that the government changes...(Never will happen in this hippie "peace" loving state)

The CA AWB will be overturned in :twoweeks:

SARC_Mike
06-18-2012, 2:47 PM
The CA AWB will be overturned in :twoweeks:

Uhhh....explain ^^^!

Bhobbs
06-18-2012, 2:50 PM
Uhhh....explain ^^^!

There is currently a lawsuit seeking to overturn the AWB.

bwiese
06-18-2012, 2:56 PM
There is currently a lawsuit seeking to overturn the AWB.

Overturn?

There are other incremental paths to success that do not require full overturn.

Remember the huge looming issues in legislature right now - the freaky Yee bill about maglocks its writers don't even understand (nor understand the consequences/interrelations thereof/therefrom) plus Dickinson's Cop AW "fixup" bill that has Giant Problems - and buyback drama etc.

Many items can be added to a pot to make a good stew and you don't always have to get to the end of the full recipe to get a very good meal. ;-)

Bhobbs
06-18-2012, 3:03 PM
Overturn?

There are other incremental paths to success that do not require full overturn.

Remember the huge looming issues in legislature right now - the freaky Yee bill about maglocks its writers don't even understand (nor understand the consequences/interrelations thereof/therefrom) plus Dickinson's Cop AW "fixup" bill that has Giant Problems - and buyback drama etc.

Many items can be added to a pot to make a good stew and you don't always have to get to the end of the full recipe to get a very good meal. ;-)

I thought the key part of the suit was that the law was vague. Seems to me that the whole law would go down if that was the case. I may be missing something but I don't speak legalese so it's hard for me to follow along sometimes.

bwiese
06-18-2012, 3:17 PM
All I'm saying is that these are interesting times with many things coming to a head.

Bhobbs
06-18-2012, 3:19 PM
All I'm saying is that these are interesting times with many things coming to a head.

It's what I keep hearing. Hopefully it brings the changes we are looking for.

chris
06-18-2012, 3:33 PM
Bill. Like many here would love to see the AWB either be overturned entirely or reduced to complete ineffectiveness. Either way I can't wait for it to happen.

On a side nite I took a rifle class the instructor mentioned to apply for and AW permit. I told him I know of no one who has been given one for a private citizen.

SARC_Mike
06-18-2012, 3:35 PM
There is currently a lawsuit seeking to overturn the AWB.

Ahhh...that was excited hopeful forecasting...not fact.

I will not be holding my breath for the results of the lawsuit.

Bhobbs
06-18-2012, 3:36 PM
Bill. Like many here would love to see the AWB either be overturned entirely or reduced to complete ineffectiveness. Either way I can't wait for it to happen.

On a side nite I took a rifle class the instructor mentioned to apply for and AW permit. I told him I know of no one who has been given one for a private citizen.

I want at least to be able to buy an AR15 as designed and built and take it where ever I want. I wouldn't want them to start issuing permits due to the restrictions placed on AWs.

wildhawker
06-18-2012, 4:36 PM
Ahhh...that was excited hopeful forecasting...not fact.

I will not be holding my breath for the results of the lawsuit.

Why do you say this?

Progress is progress. If there's something else you had in mind, I'd like to better understand what that is.

-Brandon

Bhobbs
06-18-2012, 10:03 PM
Ahhh...that was excited hopeful forecasting...not fact.

I will not be holding my breath for the results of the lawsuit.

It may take a long time to work out but it will work out in our favor.

sharxbyte
06-19-2012, 9:55 AM
There are several companies that rent weapons of all kinds to movie productions. This seems like the obvious solution.

You mean an excuse to NOT legally acquire fully automatic etc. weapons? Because we REALLY need more of those in California... If he has the dough (or his movie friend can subsidize it) there is no (obvious) reason NOT to.

But anyway, definitely call a lawyer to avoid getting reamed later.

SARC_Mike
06-19-2012, 11:06 AM
Why do you say this?

Progress is progress. If there's something else you had in mind, I'd like to better understand what that is.

-Brandon

My response was to the "two week" statement. I would bet a paycheck that in 2 weeks I will not be able to purchase an "assault" weapon...

It would be nice...

And yes...I am all for progress!!!

Bhobbs
06-19-2012, 11:14 AM
My response was to the "two week" statement. I would bet a paycheck that in 2 weeks I will not be able to purchase an "assault" weapon...

It would be nice...

And yes...I am all for progress!!!

Two weeks on Calguns doesn't mean two weeks. It's something people say when they have no idea when something will happen. I'm surprised you never saw that being her for a few months already.

Carnivore
06-19-2012, 11:43 AM
You mean an excuse to NOT legally acquire fully automatic etc. weapons? Because we REALLY need more of those in California... If he has the dough (or his movie friend can subsidize it) there is no (obvious) reason NOT to.

But anyway, definitely call a lawyer to avoid getting reamed later.

The problem is that the 3 largest movie prop companies (gun props go with it) in the state have closed due to either loss of license in one case from not filing proper paper work, to taxes, lack of work, fees up the wazoo etc. There hasn't been a new (prop gun company) started in this state in over 10 years because the headaches are so huge it is better to get in with an established company. My Bro-in-law works in the field and even his company has come close to closing 4 times due to the unbelievable paper work involved. Not to mention that the guns are strictly regulated and you can't just run to the desert and start shooting for fun. Their use goes with the filming permits and they are checked on constantly. It isn't like having a person RAW it is tied to filming itself. I won't say "some people" don't use them but if caught it is mandatory loss of license, fines and things you don't even want to know.

I think the OP thought it was a slam dunk if you have a reason but like a CCW just having a reason isn't near good enough. You can be turned down for any reason or just not crossing a "T" that should have been. That is why the filming industry as been moving out of California. Is the restrictions and the whole "cash cow" mentality of local and state legislators.

timdps
06-22-2012, 8:13 AM
Just saw this comment; "Actually, I do that for a living and no you can't. New weapons handlers permits aren't being issued because, I kid you not, 9/11. Apparently we're at great risk of terrorists deciding to go under cover as practical fx guys in Hollywood and.. something something Homeland Security."

Found in the comments section of this article: http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/06/21/california-law-enforcement-unclear-on-legality-of-bullet-button/#respond