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View Full Version : New Method to Track Gun Use Stalled by Foes, Calguns Foundation Blamed


HowardW56
06-12-2012, 5:46 PM
New Method to Track Gun Use Stalled by Foes
By ERICA GOODE
Published: June 12, 2012

Front Page of the New York Times!

San Diego Union Tribune Has the article too... (http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/jun/13/tp-coding-on-shells-sparking-debate-on-firearms/)


Cheryl Senter for The New York Times



Todd Lizotte, an engineer who developed the microstamping technique in the 1990s, looking at casings. He says he wants the patents to lapse and the technology to be in the public domain.



A technique that uses laser technology and stamps a numeric code on shell casings can do just that. But the technology, called microstamping, has been swept up in the larger national debate over gun laws and Second Amendment rights, and efforts to require gun makers to use it have stalled across the nation.

In California, legislation signed by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger in 2007 has been held up while the attorney generalís office makes sure the technology is unencumbered by patents. A gun rights group, the Calguns Foundation, went so far as to pay a $555 fee to extend a lapsing patent held by the developer to further delay the law from taking effect.

Complete Article (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/us/code-on-shell-casings-sparks-a-gun-debate.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all)


Calguns Foundation holding up microstamping, and being publically being blamed for it, is a great reason for a DONATION! (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/donate.html)

TANK
06-12-2012, 5:51 PM
thats exactly why i contibute to cg monthly

jaymz
06-12-2012, 5:51 PM
Well, as much as I'd love to give CGF the credit, the blame actually falls squarely upon the morons that wrote the law. Unless of course CGF is responsible for the "unencumbered by patent" wording!

Maltese Falcon
06-12-2012, 5:52 PM
Now that's what I call good thinking and ROI!

.

HowardW56
06-12-2012, 5:57 PM
Now that's what I call good thinking and ROI!

.

You bet, $555.00 to avoid litigation and hold off microstamping. Money well spent!


Getting The Calguns Foundation blamed for it on the front page of the NY Times is just icing on the cake!

Gray Peterson
06-12-2012, 6:11 PM
Dun Dun Dun.

EUS in action.

mofugly13
06-12-2012, 6:13 PM
How much of an extension on the patent does $555 get us?

SilverTauron
06-12-2012, 6:15 PM
Great work gents! As an out of state beneficiary of your hard work, I offer my thanks.

Now, on to the business at hand. We know know the inventor isn't interested in money and wants the technology to become public domain, which by my interpretation spells bad news when the patent eventually expires. Which is when, if I may ask?

disturbed1
06-12-2012, 6:17 PM
well I have a new job so, as soon as I can I shall doante!

CaliforniaLiberal
06-12-2012, 6:31 PM
Outstanding!! If you can make it in New York, you can make it anywhere!

We are a completely awesome, Nationally Recognized "Gun Rights Organization!"

I am sooo proud.

bwiese
06-12-2012, 7:15 PM
Well, as much as I'd love to give CGF the credit, the blame actually falls squarely upon the morons that wrote the law. Unless of course CGF is responsible for the "unencumbered by patent" wording!

Thank our NRA friends in Sacto for having weird friends on the other side of the aisle.

HowardW56
06-12-2012, 7:33 PM
Thank our NRA friends in Sacto for having weird friends on the other side of the aisle.

:cheers2:

RobG
06-12-2012, 7:40 PM
But Bill, the NRA doesn't do anything for Californians:rolleyes:

clutchy
06-12-2012, 8:24 PM
this is just excellent.

NoJoke
06-12-2012, 8:27 PM
Are there any special instructions re: reloading micro stamped cases?

Seems kinda silly. :facepalm:

trashman
06-12-2012, 8:39 PM
Great stuff :chris:

If the New York Times is unhappy about something CGF is doing, well....\

--Neill

Zebra
06-12-2012, 8:51 PM
HA!

http://franknandrea.com/cgf_ad/forumdisplay.php_files/CGF_donate_v2.gif (http://calgunsfoundation.org/donate.html)

You bet, $555.00 to avoid litigation and hold off microstamping. Money well spent!


Getting The Calguns Foundation blamed for it on the front page of the NY Times is just icing on the cake!

VegasND
06-12-2012, 8:55 PM
I love this and got a great laugh. Keep up the good work!
... the Calguns Foundation, went so far as to pay a $555 fee to extend a lapsing patent held by the developer to further delay the law from taking effect.
...

707electrician
06-12-2012, 8:57 PM
Classic! So what happens IF this microstamping law goes into effect and someone picks up brass at the range with another serial number on it, reloads it, and kills someone with that realoaded ammo?

Seems like a terrible idea

Zachs300zx
06-12-2012, 8:58 PM
Interesting to see a picture of that microstamping firing pin.
About 5 seconds with a Dremel and no more numbers....
...But then they would pass a law making defacing a firing pin illegal. Next we will have checks by LEO's to "make sure the microstamp is intact". A registered firing pin list will then be enacted, registration and fees will be needed for all replacement firing pins...

Thanks CGF!

CitaDeL
06-12-2012, 8:59 PM
Pure comedy gold. It is hysterical that the NYT put it to print that the Calguns Foundation has stymied microstamping with a $555 investment.

hoffmang
06-12-2012, 9:32 PM
Our very good friends at NRA made sure that the legislature kept to it's liberal values and didn't create a monopoly and we did our part to apply a superior understanding of intellectual property and litigation to exploit such excellent work.

We had kind of expected to never get credit, but thanks to the NYT for now letting us explain how we'd kept the handgun roster from banning more handguns!

Freedom isn't free, and we have to take the Roster down. Please donate (https://interland3.donorperfect.net/weblink/weblink.aspx?name=calgunsfnd&id=1).

-Gene

Decoligny
06-12-2012, 9:33 PM
I thought the laser engraving on the firing pin wore off after about 200 rounds. If this is the case, then one afternoon of target practice would defeat the intent of the law.

Citizen 14
06-12-2012, 9:37 PM
Thank you guys for all your hard work!

jdberger
06-12-2012, 9:44 PM
Zippity do Dah!

Gray Peterson
06-12-2012, 9:51 PM
And the utopian dreams of millions of anti-gunners...shattered in an instant.

Buh Bye.

ponderosa
06-12-2012, 9:52 PM
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you again CGF.

goober
06-12-2012, 10:12 PM
heh.
beautiful.
donation inbound :D

Muzz
06-12-2012, 10:54 PM
That is about the COOLEST tactic EVER thought of!!!
SOMEBODY deserves a raise/medal/dinner/bonus.

Gray Peterson
06-12-2012, 11:22 PM
That is about the COOLEST tactic EVER thought of!!!
SOMEBODY deserves a raise/medal/dinner/bonus.

:gene:

nick
06-12-2012, 11:24 PM
:gene:

Well, it's your own fault that you're in WA :p

socalbowhunter
06-12-2012, 11:44 PM
I thought the laser engraving on the firing pin wore off after about 200 rounds. If this is the case, then one afternoon of target practice would defeat the intent of the law.

Hate the be the barer of bad news, but the intent of the law is to ban guns.

Wrangler John
06-13-2012, 12:03 AM
Once in a great while a solution to a problem is so elegant and simple that no words can describe the depth of bliss it brings us. In these cases, we simply offer a sprig of clover and a smile to our teachers.

Librarian
06-13-2012, 12:06 AM
Hate the be the barer of bad news, but the intent of the law is to ban guns.

I don't agree. That's the intent of some of the legislators and some of their backers.

The intent of the law is two-fold:
(1) to ban the so-called 'Saturday Night Special', 'Ring of Fire' inexpensive handguns: the expectation was that the inexpensive guns would fail the testing - but they all seem to have passed.

(2) to establish in the mind of the public that there are 'good' guns and 'bad' guns, that they can be identified, and that the legislature has the right, power and duty to 'protect' us from the 'bad' ones.

wildhawker
06-13-2012, 12:08 AM
While the NRA-ILA and its $500k/mo of attorneys give you duplicative press releases, we offer you product.

It's at www.calgunsfoundation.org/donate.

-Brandon

nick
06-13-2012, 12:15 AM
I don't agree. That's the intent of some of the legislators and some of their backers.

The intent of the law is two-fold:
(1) to ban the so-called 'Saturday Night Special', 'Ring of Fire' inexpensive handguns: the expectation was that the inexpensive guns would fail the testing - but they all seem to have passed.

(2) to establish in the mind of the public that there are 'good' guns and 'bad' guns, that they can be identified, and that the legislature has the right, power and duty to 'protect' us from the 'bad' ones.

Didn't we already call them morons? You don't have to be redundant.

Gray Peterson
06-13-2012, 12:49 AM
Well, it's your own fault that you're in WA :p

Ha. I come down to CA enough.

Wasn't me, though..

socalbowhunter
06-13-2012, 1:11 AM
I don't agree. That's the intent of some of the legislators and some of their backers.

The intent of the law is two-fold:
(1) to ban the so-called 'Saturday Night Special', 'Ring of Fire' inexpensive handguns: the expectation was that the inexpensive guns would fail the testing - but they all seem to have passed.

(2) to establish in the mind of the public that there are 'good' guns and 'bad' guns, that they can be identified, and that the legislature has the right, power and duty to 'protect' us from the 'bad' ones.

That is the intent of the roster, but not the micro-stamping.

MindBuilder
06-13-2012, 1:27 AM
So if the inventor wanted the patent to lapse, what stops him from just signing over ownership of the patent to the State, or selling it to a gun control group under the contractual obligation that it be re-licensed royalty free to anyone until it expires?

bwiese
06-13-2012, 1:36 AM
So if the inventor wanted the patent to lapse, what stops him from just signing over ownership of the patent to the State, or selling it to a gun control group under the contractual obligation that it be re-licensed royalty free to anyone until it expires?

That's still 'encumbered' intellectual property

mosinnagantm9130
06-13-2012, 1:58 AM
Freedom isn't free, and we have to take the Roster down. Please donate (https://interland3.donorperfect.net/weblink/weblink.aspx?name=calgunsfnd&id=1).

-Gene

So if the roster falls, microstamping goes with it?:confused:

Librarian
06-13-2012, 2:24 AM
So if the roster falls, microstamping goes with it?:confused:

As currently conceived, yes. If ever microstamping is to be 'implemented', it is a condition that would be required for a gun to get on the Roster.

Librarian
06-13-2012, 2:31 AM
That is the intent of the roster, but not the micro-stamping.

Microstamping is implemented through the Roster. And guns already sold in CA before that requirement would become effective would not have the markings, ETA nor would any semiautomatics already on the Roster and still sold in CA, nor would guns moved here from out of state, nor would revolvers, nor would any long guns.

With that many exceptions, even legislators living in fantasy land understand that microstamping cannot 'ban guns'. (For that same litany of reasons, the theoretical benefits of microstamping to law enforcement, the putative reason for the requirement, are too small to pass the laugh test.)

steelciocc
06-13-2012, 3:46 AM
Donation sent - keep up the good work!

rkt88edmo
06-13-2012, 4:45 AM
Yay - very nice

HowardW56
06-13-2012, 6:54 AM
And the utopian dreams of millions of anti-gunners...shattered in an instant.

Buh Bye.

With a signature on a $555.00 check..... :D:43::D:43::D:43:

Calguns, frustrating anti's for a fraction of a cent each!

HowardW56
06-13-2012, 6:57 AM
That is about the COOLEST tactic EVER thought of!!!
SOMEBODY deserves a raise/medal/dinner/bonus.

SOMEBODY, I can think of a whole group who deserve that and more!

SanPedroShooter
06-13-2012, 6:59 AM
How long can CGF keep extending the patent? Can the NRA buy it out right?

I dont know a lot about patent law. I am working for a high profile patent attorney (or as high profile as patent attorneys get) right now. I'll ask him.

Meplat
06-13-2012, 7:00 AM
Originally Posted by Decoligny
I thought the laser engraving on the firing pin wore off after about 200 rounds. If this is the case, then one afternoon of target practice would defeat the intent of the law.


Hate the be the barer of bad news, but the intent of the law is to ban guns.

The intent of the law is to further erode the 2A by making guns more expensive and reduce the available choices. It is also to build another useless expensive regulatory boondoggle.

Virtual micro stamping has existed forever. Every machined steel part has microscopic tool marks. If you surround a brass casing in machined steel and create an internal pressure of 10,000 to 60,000 PSI, itís gonna leave marks! Forensic science has been using this for years! The existing tool marks on firing pins and breach blocks are all unique to each individual part. Other parts such as extractors, ejectors, and feed ramps also leave unique marks.

VegasND
06-13-2012, 7:50 AM
And some states require a fired case from each handgun sold to be kept for such identification.

I'll bet somebody the facts on hand regarding how many crimes have been solved by and how much money has been spent on these programs?
The intent of the law is to further erode the 2A by making guns more expensive and reduce the available choices. It is also to build another useless expensive regulatory boondoggle.

Virtual micro stamping has existed forever. Every machined steel part has microscopic tool marks. If you surround a brass casing in machined steel and create an internal pressure of 10,000 to 60,000 PSI, it’s gonna leave marks! Forensic science has been using this for years! The existing tool marks on firing pins and breach blocks are all unique to each individual part. Other parts such as extractors, ejectors, and feed ramps also leave unique marks.

12voltguy
06-13-2012, 8:04 AM
Classic! So what happens IF this microstamping law goes into effect and someone picks up brass at the range with another serial number on it, reloads it, and kills someone with that realoaded ammo?

Seems like a terrible idea

all a killer needs to do is pick up a bag full & scatter it at crimer sceans, & use a revolver
great law no getting past that one!:rolleyes:

winnre
06-13-2012, 8:10 AM
Maybe California will decide to pay the royalties for the microstamping and pass the costs on to us in a higher DROS fee.

Wherryj
06-13-2012, 10:27 AM
A gun rights group, the Calguns Foundation, went so far as to pay a $555 fee to extend a lapsing patent held by the developer to further delay the law from taking effect.


Wow, those Calguns guys sound nice, helping that patent owner out after he went delinquent on his payments. What a nice, charitable bunch.

HowardW56
06-13-2012, 10:44 AM
Wow, those Calguns guys sound nice, helping that patent owner out after he went delinquent on his payments. What a nice, charitable bunch.

Better yet, I believe they made the payment before he could go delinquent, wouldn't want his patent to lapse... :D

bwiese
06-13-2012, 10:53 AM
So if the roster falls, microstamping goes with it?:confused:

Not that microstamping is all but dead & gone, but microstamping was only a gating factor to being Rostered, just like the SB489 loaded chamber indicator.
feature requirement on pistols.

If the Roster is gone, these gating features are irrelevant.

bwiese
06-13-2012, 10:54 AM
Five-five-five... the NEW 'mark of the beast'!!

robcoe
06-13-2012, 10:56 AM
As soon as I have another $50 that isn't tied up in something I'll be donating again.

rero360
06-13-2012, 12:07 PM
And some states require a fired case from each handgun sold to be kept for such identification.

I'll bet somebody the facts on hand regarding how many crimes have been solved by and how much money has been spent on these programs?

NY is one of those states.

I'm not positive but I'm going to make a guess at 0 crimes solved and a metric buttload of cash spent. :D

JSolie
06-13-2012, 12:23 PM
Five-five-five... the NEW 'mark of the beast'!!

Or read & execute, read & execute, read & execute. Yep... CGF is all about action--very well thought out action.

ojisan
06-13-2012, 12:41 PM
This is exactly the kind of clever, sneaky, rude, back-door, underhanded, unexpected and totally effective kind of stuff that I want to see going on from a pro- 2A organization.
:notworthy:

:punk:



Oh, to be there to see their faces when they first found out...
:smilielol5:


Donation sent.

HowardW56
06-13-2012, 12:58 PM
This is exactly the kind of clever, sneaky, rude, back-door, underhanded, unexpected and totally effective kind of stuff that I want to see going on from a pro- 2A organization :notworthy:
:punk:

Oh, to be there to see their faces when they first found out...
:smilielol5:


Donation sent.

I think it was brilliant......

And to have been a fly on the wall when Bloomberg read that article...... :D

ptoguy2002
06-13-2012, 1:29 PM
This is exactly the kind of clever, sneaky, rude, back-door, underhanded, unexpected and totally effective kind of stuff that I want to see going on from a pro- 2A organization.

That was a pretty awesome move. Whoever thought of that "Hey, I'll just pay his late maintenance fee for him" is a clever, clever person.

HowardW56
06-13-2012, 1:30 PM
That was a pretty awesome move. Whoever thought of that "Hey, I'll just pay his late maintenance fee for him" is a clever, clever person.

:gene:

G60
06-13-2012, 1:53 PM
As for reloading, you don't reuse primers.

m03
06-13-2012, 3:52 PM
The story has been posted on Slashdot:

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/06/13/215204/blocking-gun-laws-with-patents

...expect a few hundred to a few thousand extra visitors to the site today.

CAL.BAR
06-13-2012, 4:21 PM
OK, but the inventor still owns the patent. He can simply assign it to the first company that wants it. CGF doesn't own the patent. The only thing stopping this is that the technology just doesn't exist yet. Patent or no, it's the technology stopping this - not the patent. The roster issue notwithstanding of course.

SanPedroShooter
06-13-2012, 4:54 PM
So I talked to the patent attorney I am working for.

According to him, patents are exclusive for 17 years or 20 from the time of filing if the feds dick around with the app for awhile, what ever is longer. I think that is what he said. After that they are free for anyone to use.

I guess I still dont understand what CGF is paying for. You cant 'extend' a patent after the time alloted.

Maybe I didnt explain the situation to him properly. He obvioulsy doesnt read the NYT, and the WST isnt covering the story as far as I know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maintenance_fee_(patent)
Found it. The holder must pay 'maintanince fee's' Probably in the amount of 555 dollars ;)

Scarecrow Repair
06-13-2012, 5:14 PM
Or read & execute, read & execute, read & execute. Yep... CGF is all about action--very well thought out action.

Now now, there's plenty of rights in there too. We're right about the rights!

goober
06-13-2012, 6:12 PM
OK, but the inventor still owns the patent. He can simply assign it to the first company that wants it. CGF doesn't own the patent. The only thing stopping this is that the technology just doesn't exist yet. Patent or no, it's the technology stopping this - not the patent. The roster issue notwithstanding of course.

read the law.

12126(b)(7) Commencing January 1, 2010, for all semiautomatic pistols that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section 12131, it is not designed and equipped with a microscopic array of characters that identify the make, model, and serial number of the pistol, etched or otherwise imprinted in two or more places on the interior surface or internal working parts of the pistol, and that are transferred by imprinting on each cartridge case when the firearm is fired, provided that the Department of Justice certifies that the technology used to create the imprint is available to more than one manufacturer unencumbered by any patent restrictions. The Attorney General may also approve a method of equal or greater reliability and effectiveness in identifying the specific serial number of a firearm from spent cartridge casings discharged by that firearm than that which is set forth in this paragraph, to be thereafter required as otherwise set forth by this paragraph where the Attorney General certifies that this new method is also unencumbered by any patent restrictions. Approval by the Attorney General shall include notice of that fact via regulations adopted by the Attorney General for purposes of implementing that method for purposes of this paragraph. The microscopic array of characters required by this section shall not be considered the name of the maker, model, manufacturer's number, or other mark of identification, including any distinguishing number or mark assigned by the Department of Justice, within the meaning of Sections 12090 and 12094.

mymonkeyman
06-13-2012, 6:39 PM
Well I am a patent litigator and I'd just like to say, I'm glad we have smarter lawyers than the antis do.

Also, shouldn't that be $565, not $555? I'm assuming it was the 3.5 year fee and the current assignee is a small entity. Who is the assignee anyways and what are the patent numbers? I've never heard of someone other than the assignee paying the maintenance fee. Was the thought that they weren't going to pay it, or just worried that they might not?

I hope you have the next payments of $1,425.00 and $2,365.00 lined up with an attorney for those windows as well so you can get the full term.

Edit: Nevermind, I see what happened. Cutting it kind of close there guys given how many went expired. And you paid the late surcharge on the '419 so it was definitely more than $555.

mymonkeyman
06-13-2012, 7:21 PM
read the law.

Well the other issue is that, how is the CA DOJ qualified or have the man power to prove something is patent unencumbered? Yes, of course, there are these well known patents, but you can have multiple blocking patents from different people all covering the same thing. Conducting a search is expensive and error prone. I guess they could just wait 22 years after the law was issued, assuming an enabling public disclosure at the time the law issued (1 year 102(b) period, 1 year provisional application period, 20 year period of effect from filing for post-Uruguay round application priority), but there is still the possibility, however unlikely, for pre-Uruguay round submarine patents out there. On the other hand, who knows, maybe Lemelson (R.I.P.) still has some bar code patent applications floating around the PTO that could read on microstamping. Because those patent applications could be secret as a matter of law (US patent applications are not published if the patentee gives up the right to file a PCT / foreign patents based on the US patent application), the DOJ could never know whether the technology remains unencumbered. I guess at some point you could say, as a matter of law, any such pending patent must be no longer valid because of prosecution laches, but prosecution laches is such a weak doctrine, so I'd say that's probably something like 50 years out.

PEBKAC
06-13-2012, 7:26 PM
This is hilarious news, recurring donation set up. :D

Shotgun Man
06-13-2012, 8:14 PM
Wow, Mr. Monkey Man, you said a mouthful!

GOEX FFF
06-13-2012, 8:14 PM
Well I am a patent litigator and I'd just like to say, I'm glad we have smarter lawyers than the antis do.

Also, shouldn't that be $565, not $555? I'm assuming it was the 3.5 year fee and the current assignee is a small entity. Who is the assignee anyways and what are the patent numbers? I've never heard of someone other than the assignee paying the maintenance fee. Was the thought that they weren't going to pay it, or just worried that they might not?

I hope you have the next payments of $1,425.00 and $2,365.00 lined up with an attorney for those windows as well so you can get the full term.

Edit: Nevermind, I see what happened. Cutting it kind of close there guys given how many went expired. And you paid the late surcharge on the '419 so it was definitely more than $555.


I'm sure CGF does, and of they don't, Calgunners will raise/donate that money in 24/48 hours. :43:

Just look at the victory raised for Sheriff Palmer's Live scan machine -

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=267404

"WE GOT IT! We got $11,614 total (5420 Gunpal/CalGuns, 4831 OFEF, 1365 mailed donations), and the machine costs 11,292.94. We got it done, folks, great thanks to all who donated!"

We all know Freedom isn't Free...

hoffmang
06-13-2012, 8:54 PM
Wow, those Calguns guys sound nice, helping that patent owner out after he went delinquent on his payments. What a nice, charitable bunch.

Better yet, I believe they made the payment before he could go delinquent, wouldn't want his patent to lapse... :D
:D
Well the other issue is that, how is the CA DOJ qualified or have the man power to prove something is patent unencumbered?

We have also noticed that issue and plan to exploit it should we need to... :chris:

The funniest part is that we expected to not say a word about this, but the NYT does some investigative journalism still. Who knew?

-Gene

Paladin
06-13-2012, 9:24 PM
CGF FTW!

:King:

nick
06-13-2012, 9:36 PM
Or read & execute, read & execute, read & execute. Yep... CGF is all about action--very well thought out action.

Nerd :p

Glock21sfsd
06-13-2012, 9:40 PM
I didnt bother to read all the posts in this thread but the one Thing I would like to bring up is that this seems easily bypassed if your a criminal. Just go to the local rang and pick up a handful of spent brass in your preferred caliber and then when you commit your crime drop those spent casings and make sure you collect all yours. Wallah you just got away with murder................................What a bunch of dumb politicians to think this is a good idea in any way shape or form.

Meplat
06-13-2012, 9:44 PM
As for reloading, you don't reuse primers.

I wondered how long it was going to take for someone to point that out. I HAVE ďreloadedĒ primers.:43: Pop out the anvil. Flatten out the firing pin dent. Dab in the compound. Replace the anvil. Let dry.

Itís risky and I would never do it except to learn how, or if no commercial primers were obtainable. The micro-stamping would most likely be destroyed in the process.

Meplat
06-13-2012, 10:02 PM
I didnt bother to read all the posts in this thread but the one Thing I would like to bring up is that this seems easily bypassed if your a criminal. Just go to the local rang and pick up a handful of spent brass in your preferred caliber and then when you commit your crime drop those spent casings and make sure you collect all yours. Wallah you just got away with murder................................What a bunch of dumb politicians to think this is a good idea in any way shape or form.

Yes. Several people have mentioned that. Itís not about effective. Itís about public perception, and making life miserable for shooters.


ďIf the mind is baffled, when the rules donít fit the game.Ē (Ed Aims)

NSR500
06-13-2012, 10:08 PM
Winning!

Lifeon2whls
06-20-2012, 7:08 PM
Donated

motorhead
06-21-2012, 11:13 AM
i know it's not nice to gloat, but...

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj22/neon_tony/1313910213375.png

Tarn_Helm
06-21-2012, 12:03 PM
Thank our NRA friends in Sacto for having weird friends on the other side of the aisle.

A friend of the Second Amendment is a friend to me--aisle or no aisle.

:cheers2: