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vantec08
06-11-2012, 10:45 PM
http://dailycaller.com/2012/06/11/senator-opens-inquiry-into-epas-armed-visit-to-nc-mans-home/#ixzz1xXjPHnm1


wtf?

akcooper9
06-12-2012, 4:00 AM
wtf?

Pretty much what I thought...why does a 'govt' agency who the people have no say in is now all of a sudden walking around 'armed' (BTW I doubt armed means just a side arm on the hip)

vantec08
06-12-2012, 4:22 AM
Add it to the list of armed federal agents and swat teams . .. .U.S. Dept. Education, USDA, etc etc

Dark Sky Solutions
06-12-2012, 4:30 AM
EPA has had their investigators for a while who are armed ad carry. Not all EPA agents are authorized to carry to my knowledge.

The other scary thing is if you look up the arresting rights and broad spectrum of the EPA arresting powers.

sfpcservice
06-12-2012, 6:54 AM
GS-1811 Special Agent. Many federal agencies have them, including the FBI.

lugee
06-12-2012, 7:19 AM
IRS field agents are armed also

ptoguy2002
06-12-2012, 8:28 AM
I'm waiting for the day when the California ARB and AQMD people are armed and have arresting power.....no big red SCAQMD tag on your machine?...they draw, cuff, and arrest you....just wait, it'll happen.

sfpcservice
06-12-2012, 8:47 AM
I think Steven segall did a movie in the 90's where he played an EPA special agent. Anyways, these guys have bbeen around for a while; they just don't make the news very often.

Lawmonkey33
06-12-2012, 10:57 AM
GS-1811 Special Agent. Many federal agencies have them, including the FBI.

Exactly...... most federal agencies have 1811 positions.

Ubermcoupe
06-12-2012, 11:02 AM
So does NOAA, NASA, Marine and Fisheries, etc.

I mean, you didn’t expect them to enforce the law because they said so right? ;)

YubaRiver
06-12-2012, 11:24 AM
Y'all heard a revenuers, right?


Anywhere there is potential for big money
crime to happen, some of the investigators need to be armed.
Those who illegally poison other people and property can be pretty desperate.

HBrebel
06-12-2012, 12:15 PM
I think arming them was a huge mistake. They are supposedly armed for their own protection, now that they are an armed agent they will need that protection even more. I might open my door to a well dressed, friendly agent with a calm demeanor, but an armed agent kicking in my door over air quality or raw milk possession or for yelling at my kid? Good luck! And they had better notify the sheriff first because I sure as hell will call the sheriff with my complaint of armed assailants on my lawn.

Curley Red
06-12-2012, 12:30 PM
I read another report on the same story and it stated that the agents were not carrying but the accompanied officers were.


Also, straight from the EPA website:

EPAís Criminal Investigation Division (EPA CID) Special Agents are fully authorized law enforcement officers empowered to enforce our nationís environmental laws as well as any other federal law in accordance with the guidelines established by the Attorney General of the United States (18 U.S.C. 3063).

POLICESTATE
06-12-2012, 12:44 PM
Seems more and more federal agencies are getting armed, and heavily so.

Gryff
06-12-2012, 1:27 PM
Every government agency wants its own armed group. Did you know that even the California Lottery has armed LEOs?

Ron-Solo
06-12-2012, 3:38 PM
Anyone here want to make an arrest of a criminal while unarmed? Just sayin.....

DrDavid
06-12-2012, 3:55 PM
If the 2nd gives me the right to bear arms... Why are we all concerned that someone else has a gun? Yeah, they're an agent for the government, but, they're still personally covered by the constitution.. No?

RP1911
06-12-2012, 3:57 PM
I'm waiting for the day when the California ARB and AQMD people are armed and have arresting power.....no big red SCAQMD tag on your machine?...they draw, cuff, and arrest you....just wait, it'll happen.

DTSC - Department of Toxic Substances Control has them.

alfred1222
06-12-2012, 4:00 PM
If the 2nd gives me the right to bear arms... Why are we all concerned that someone else has a gun? Yeah, they're an agent for the government, but, they're still personally covered by the constitution.. No?

we arent questioning their right to be armed, we are wondering why agents of an agency who is mandated to protect the environment need to carry guns and preform law enforcement functions. That goes beyond what they were supposed to do.

Deucer
06-12-2012, 4:03 PM
And may I see this storage facility?

http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Walter-Peck-Douche.jpg

a1c
06-12-2012, 4:19 PM
we arent questioning their right to be armed, we are wondering why agents of an agency who is mandated to protect the environment need to carry guns and preform law enforcement functions. That goes beyond what they were supposed to do.

I think you might want to read up on the EPA. A significant part of its mission is to enforce laws passed by Congress.

Dark Sky Solutions
06-12-2012, 5:33 PM
I think you might want to read up on the EPA. A significant part of its mission is to enforce laws passed by Congress.

http://www.epa.gov/oecaerth/criminal/index.html

Reads like law enforcement to me. From what I hear they have the broadest arresting powers of any federal agency. Might be wrong but...

ptoguy2002
06-12-2012, 5:54 PM
Anyone here want to make an arrest of a criminal while unarmed? Just sayin.....

I understand and agree with your point. My concern with the whole bit, and the issue behind my post, is the expanding police power behind environmental regulations (NOT laws). Violations arent criminal. If they, call the cops, or the FBI. Environmental agencies having arrest power and being armed as an LEO is wrong. Want to protect yourself in case something goes sideways, apply for a CCW like the rest of us have to. Otherwise mail me my fine.

ptoguy2002
06-12-2012, 5:58 PM
If the 2nd gives me the right to bear arms... Why are we all concerned that someone else has a gun? Yeah, they're an agent for the government, but, they're still personally covered by the constitution.. No?

Correct, and they should apply for a CCW like everybody else. The (my) concern is the police power over non-criminal activity.

Dark Sky Solutions
06-12-2012, 6:09 PM
Correct, and they should apply for a CCW like everybody else. The (my) concern is the police power over non-criminal activity.

Not arguing with u guys at all but some of the things the EPA LEOs investigate are considered criminal acts. I don't necessarily agree with that way of thinking but the laws clearly define what is a criminal offense when it comes to the EPA

POLICESTATE
06-13-2012, 12:30 PM
Anyone here want to make an arrest of a criminal while unarmed? Just sayin.....

Not all federal agencies should be affecting arrests on their own. That is one of the reasons we have the FBI and the US Marshall's service. The EPA for instance, should be identifying violations of law and then reporting them to the DOJ and let them direct the arrests and indictments.

Firefighters don't arrest people, city building inspectors don't arrest people, if they see something that breaks the law they call the police.

Gryff
06-13-2012, 1:36 PM
Firefighters don't arrest people,

They do if they are arson investigators. Firefighters with guns.

vantec08
06-13-2012, 1:46 PM
Somehow .. .. I can get my head around some guy trying to build his house in rural Idaho, making a step wall next to a "seasonal watercourse", and armed EPA agents SWAT him.

ptoguy2002
06-13-2012, 2:03 PM
. I can get my head around some guy trying to build his house in rural Idaho, making a step wall next to a "seasonal watercourse", and armed EPA agents SWAT him.

Or your diesel particulate filter on your truck quit working, and they pull you out of the vehicle at gun point....or you have a wood burning fire on Christmas in your own fire place and they no knock you.....or......

The (my) complaint isn't about somebody being armed, it is about the criminalization of stuff that shouldn't be criminalized.

YubaRiver
06-13-2012, 3:22 PM
"Somehow .. .. I can get my head around some guy trying to build his house in rural Idaho, making a step wall next to a "seasonal watercourse", and armed EPA agents SWAT him. "

Somehow I doubt anybody in rural Idaho prefers the FBI over the EPA.

Can you say "Lon Horiuchi".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lon_Horiuchi

TheBest
06-13-2012, 9:03 PM
DTSC - Department of Toxic Substances Control has them.
I'm not in DTSC, but I know my department has armed. One of them ND'ed in the building (upstairs farthest away from me) and is now working somewhere else.

Ubermcoupe
06-13-2012, 9:11 PM
why agents of an agency who is mandated to protect the environment need to carry guns and preform law enforcement functions. That goes beyond what they were supposed to do.

I fail to see your reasoning.
Enviormental laws are in Place to protect the environment. Law enforcement agents enforce said law, thus protecting the environment.

Did I miss something? :confused:

I get that the idea of armed EPA agents may be disconcerting to some but the charter of their duties fully authorizes and warrants their need- not that I agree or disagree.

If you dont l know, Most govt agencies have a GS/GL series armed investigators to conduct field work. They process info, apply for warrants, and get assistance in arresting folks.
I know a few IRSCID and although armed, it's an accounting job. If/when they raid it's in addition to local LEOs and over fed LEOs. They left after a few years because of the mundane work and transferred to other agencies.

JimSar
06-13-2012, 9:20 PM
It's crazy.
In the Soviet Republik Of Obamalaland we'll soon have:
- Child Protection Services armed special agents,
- Department Of Labor armed special agents,
- Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity armed special agents,
- Housing Office (HUD) armed special agents
- Minority Business Development Agency armed special agents
....and that's just to name a few.

WOW! You mean these agencies didn't have armed agents in previous administrations?

DSB
06-13-2012, 9:32 PM
Many environmental crimes are punishable by prison. Here's an example:

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2009/February/09-enrd-114.html

Any agent with arrest authority should be armed. Criminals facing prison time have a funny habit of resisting.

GNE
06-13-2012, 9:34 PM
Its just in case they have to assault and destroy an oil refinery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Deadly_Ground).

DSB
06-13-2012, 9:40 PM
It's crazy.
In the Soviet Republik Of Obamalaland we'll soon have:
- Child Protection Services armed special agents,
- Department Of Labor armed special agents,
- Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity armed special agents,
- Housing Office (HUD) armed special agents
- Minority Business Development Agency armed special agents
....and that's just to name a few.

Huh?

CnCFunFactory
06-14-2012, 3:23 AM
Anyone here want to make an arrest of a criminal while unarmed? Just sayin.....

Basically... what Ron said ^^^^

ptoguy2002
06-14-2012, 7:35 AM
Any agent with arrest authority should be armed.
Correct, I'd agree, but the EPA shouldn't have arrest authority.
Yes there are bad environmental crimes. Turn the case over to the FBI, have them arrest the guy.
The case you referenced is bad, but it is also a slippery slope. The bar for "environmental crimes" will keep being lowered, and lowered, and lowered, until you are arrested and thrown in jail because your car fails the smog test, or the land you own turns out to be a wet lands 200 years ago that they want to restore. Slippery slope. And with some of the crap coming out of ARB and AQMD.....Have an unregistered assault diesel environmental weapon? ->Arrested

Does your reciprocating engine burn diesel fuel and have more than one of the following features:
1. Two stroke
2. Mechanical injectors
3. No EGR
...etc, etc.

Get my point?
I'm for environmental regulations, don't get me wrong. I get told the stories from the older folks of how bad it was 20-30 years ago, and how so much better the air quality is today. And I sure don't want to drink contaminated water, or work in a building where that didn't have proper asbestos removal, but it is getting insane and out of hand in a lot of ways, and a lot of the people doing the regs have absolutely no clue what there doing - I sure don't want them [professionally] armed too.

a1c
06-14-2012, 7:46 AM
Correct, I'd agree, but the EPA shouldn't have arrest authority.
Yes there are bad environmental crimes. Turn the case over to the FBI, have them arrest the guy.

That's like telling the ATF, the IRS or the DEA - just ask the FBI to arrest those guys for you.

pHredd9mm
06-14-2012, 8:06 AM
This is all part of a guvment plot to have a federal employee armed force bigger than the U.S. Army so they can take over the country and disarm all of us civilians. :mad:

ptoguy2002
06-14-2012, 8:19 AM
That's like telling the ATF, the IRS or the DEA - just ask the FBI to arrest those guys for you.

And do you want the EPA to evolve into what the ATF was in the 80's? Or to evolve into the IRS? Maybe you'll have to submit a form xxx every year to state your carbon footprint and pay the appropriate taxes. Hopefully they'll have a form XXX-EZ where if you live off solar and ride a bike you can cut down on the paperwork.
A level of separation between the job of the EPA, and the power to arrest, will help to some sort of balance of power, and hopefully prevent the above.

vantec08
06-14-2012, 8:23 AM
More armed federal agents running through the states, an expanded "kill decree" and drone use, a continuing effort to effectively neutralize the 2nd amendment, 4th and 5th being chipped away at (some of the 1st also), the Boy Scouts and the NRA are the "evil empire." What the blazes happened??

a1c
06-14-2012, 8:30 AM
And do you want the EPA to evolve into what the ATF was in the 80's? Or to evolve into the IRS? Maybe you'll have to submit a form xxx every year to state your carbon footprint and pay the appropriate taxes. Hopefully they'll have a form XXX-EZ where if you live off solar and ride a bike you can cut down on the paperwork.
A level of separation between the job of the EPA, and the power to arrest, will help to some sort of balance of power, and hopefully prevent the above.

So this is really what it's about. This is not about whether federal agents needed to make an arrest need to carry a firearm.

Let's be honest here: those who are contesting the concept of a handful of armed EPA agents are not contesting the concept - they're contesting the powers and the mission of the EPA.

I have no problems with the EPA's general mission. Hey, it was created by a Republican president. Are some of the EPA's current regulations abusive or questionable? You bet.

Reform that. But don't oppose the principle of armed federal agents if they need to make arrests.

elSquid
06-14-2012, 8:37 AM
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/06/22/MN5494.DTL&ao=all

And that's why I don't mind that some agencies have designated armed personnel.

:shrug:

-- Michael

YubaRiver
06-14-2012, 8:41 AM
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/06/22/MN5494.DTL&ao=all

And that's why I don't mind that some agencies have designated armed personnel.

:shrug:

-- Michael

+1+

ptoguy2002
06-14-2012, 9:33 AM
So this is really what it's about. This is not about whether federal agents needed to make an arrest need to carry a firearm.

Let's be honest here: those who are contesting the concept of a handful of armed EPA agents are not contesting the concept - they're contesting the powers and the mission of the EPA.

In general (for me anyway) about federal agents, correct. You need to differentiate between federal agents that should have a badge and a gun, and those that shouldn't have a badge and a gun. That "handful" will soon grow. It's not so much about the mission (I'd agree with that, for the most part), but about the powers behind that mission.


But don't oppose the principle of armed federal agents if they need to make arrests.
I don't oppose it either, or oppose the principle of anybody being armed (provided they are law abiding). You can't just give every TLA government agent a badge and a gun.

ETA:
I suppose I need to differentiate between armed, and armed with a badge.
Armed for personnel defense - OK (anybody, not just LEOs)
Armed with authorization to arrest - BAD.

ptoguy2002
06-14-2012, 9:39 AM
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/06/22/MN5494.DTL&ao=all

And that's why I don't mind that some agencies have designated armed personnel.

:shrug:

-- Michael

And they could have just as easily been bankers, investors, customers, whoever that the guy was pissed off at. I'm for anybody who is law abiding and wants to carry to be able to carry. Armed - yes. Armed with a badge and arrest powers - NO.
Huge difference.
Apply for a CCW like everybody else.

el chivo
06-14-2012, 12:58 PM
death penalty for littering

vantec08
06-14-2012, 1:04 PM
death penalty for littering


YOU VILL BE PONISHED!!