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Mako-Wish
06-11-2012, 6:45 PM
Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I have tried the search feature to no avail.

I would say about half the boat owners I have spoken with in Dana Point say they never go out without a gun onboard. I would like to get some info regarding the "rules" of carrying "just in case".

Some of my questions are:

Can you carry concealed loaded? Or loaded open carry while on a boat? We pay property tax on our boat, and we sleep on it pretty often. Doesn't this constitute a temporary residence?

What are the regulations on where you can shoot off-shore? I have heard everything from "as far away as is safe", "three miles out", and "only in international waters". The last doesn't seem true, but I'm no expert. When shark fishing, I always here people say shoot the shark before bringing it into your boat (mostly true with a pissed-off Mako). That is the main reason I want to carry onboard, and we have caught some smaller Mako within a mile of the coast before.

I did call the USCG once, and the dude I talked to said as far as they are concerned, the only rule is to not shoot within one mile of any of the Channel Islands. He actually said he recommends shooting Mako because they can "seem" dead, and then come back to life and destroy a boat.

Appreciate any information you guys can offer, and as always, any penal code references I can look up would be best.

Intimid8tor
06-11-2012, 7:15 PM
I took my guns out on my boat and they all fell overboard. It was the weirdest freak accident ever.

When I worked on a commercial boat, we carried a shotgun and a .22 revolver. We were never that far out, but with only 2 of us on the boat bringing a decent sized shark on board while it was snapping and thrashing wasn't going to happen.

If your boat is trailered, I would transport locked and unloaded until out of the harbor.

Solidux
06-11-2012, 7:29 PM
For some reason, there's this latent magnetic ability water has to swallow up guns. ESPECIALLY if boats are involved. An acquaintance of mine pin/welded his guns to his boatsafe but the dang water managed to swallow them up.

GMG
06-11-2012, 7:53 PM
If the boat has a head and a galley, it probably passes a a 2nd home. But don't take my word for it, check with the G/G.

If you head south to Mexican waters, you do not want to have any fire arms aboard!

Manolito
06-11-2012, 7:59 PM
If you think dealing with a new officer that is badge heavy on land try dealing with and E3 coast guard person.

There are some very interesting laws that you need to read and understand including this is not a gun this is my noise maker in case of emergency.

My advice to all that go to sea. Never take the word of a coastie without it being in writing. I would send a registered mail letter to the local coast guard station and ask your questions and ask for a response in writing. There are some very different maritime laws and some very misguided E3 coasties with a gun.

RickD427
06-11-2012, 9:05 PM
Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I have tried the search feature to no avail.

I would say about half the boat owners I have spoken with in Dana Point say they never go out without a gun onboard. I would like to get some info regarding the "rules" of carrying "just in case".

Some of my questions are:

Can you carry concealed loaded? Or loaded open carry while on a boat? We pay property tax on our boat, and we sleep on it pretty often. Doesn't this constitute a temporary residence?

What are the regulations on where you can shoot off-shore? I have heard everything from "as far away as is safe", "three miles out", and "only in international waters". The last doesn't seem true, but I'm no expert. When shark fishing, I always here people say shoot the shark before bringing it into your boat (mostly true with a pissed-off Mako). That is the main reason I want to carry onboard, and we have caught some smaller Mako within a mile of the coast before.

I did call the USCG once, and the dude I talked to said as far as they are concerned, the only rule is to not shoot within one mile of any of the Channel Islands. He actually said he recommends shooting Mako because they can "seem" dead, and then come back to life and destroy a boat.

Appreciate any information you guys can offer, and as always, any penal code references I can look up would be best.

Mako,

There are an incredible number of folks on this forum that are unbelievably "Fumble Fingered" when it comes to boats, guns, and water. Please be careful out there, good guns are hard to replace.

I spent years in the Coast Guard and was a designated Boarding Officer before moving to my current LE agency some 30 years ago. To answer your question you've got to consider two different sets of law (State and Federal) and you've also got to understand some unusual authorities possessed by LEOs on the water.

California State Law - Applies out to the twelve mile limit (extended from three miles in 1988). That includes the "evil looking guns", concealed carry, and reckless discharge laws. Just the same as if you were on the beach.

Federal Law - Also applies out to the 12 mile limit. It also applies aboard any U.S. documented, or U.S. state registered vessel, anywhere on the high seas and not in the jurisdiction of another state (refer to 18 USC 7). Once you're out past 12 miles (and assuming your boat is documented or registered), then only the federal law applies. There's a real dearth of federal law regulating firearms. Nothing directly addresses discharge. The only "evil" guns are the NFA stuff, and then only if you do not have the tax stamp. There's no federal law that matches California's "reckless discharge (PC 246.3)." Please be aware that gunfire at 1 min intervals is an international distress signal.

Search and Inspection Authorities - Here's where it really gets tricky. Your boat may have all of the properties of secondary residence (actually, for a lot of folks its their primary residence). But its also a vessel in a legal arena that is "Closely Regulated". Because a vessel has great capability to do harm if not properly maintained and operated, the law allows for inspection without need of "Probable Cause" (For discussion of the general principle in federal law, and for an application to state law, please refer to People v. Eng (California Court of Appeal, First District A094853)). This authority allows an LEO to inspect your vessel for proper equipment and operation. Any contraband or criminal evidence observed during the inspection may be seized, and may form the basis for more intrusive search.

Where there is "Probable Cause" to believe that contraband or criminal evidence may be found, a LEO has the same authority under U.S v Ross to conduct a warrantless search, to the extent supported by the PC.

Where it really gets interesting is in applying the "Border Search" authority to a boat. Whenever a person crosses the U.S. Border, they are subject to search without practical limitation and without need of probable cause (refer to U.S. v Ramsey (431 U.S. 606)). The border search authority does not only apply to folks crossing a border inbound to the U.S. It also applies to folks crossing the border leaving the U.S. (refer to U.S. v Odutayo (Fifth Circuit 03-20830)). There is no requirement for the search to occur right at the border. The law allows for the border search to occur at other locations, so long as there was an associated border crossing (refer to Almeida-Sanchez v. United States (413 U.S. 266)). Remember, there is an international border 12 miles offshore.

One of my most interesting boardings was off Catalina Island, we put a boarding party onto a large charter yacht to do an inspection. The boat had been chartered by a bunch of lawyers from one of the downtown law firms. The inevitable question was "by what authority are you going to search this boat?" I was the CO of the cutter, and when that was relayed back to me, I somehow sensed that it was not going to be a good day. I was surprised. Lawyers are trained to keep an open mind and read the law. When the boarding officer finished answering the question, the inspection went smoothly, and the lawyers sent a nice complementary letter to the District Admiral.

RickD427
06-11-2012, 9:21 PM
If you think dealing with a new officer that is badge heavy on land try dealing with and E3 coast guard person.

There are some very interesting laws that you need to read and understand including this is not a gun this is my noise maker in case of emergency.

My advice to all that go to sea. Never take the word of a coastie without it being in writing. I would send a registered mail letter to the local coast guard station and ask your questions and ask for a response in writing. There are some very different maritime laws and some very misguided E3 coasties with a gun.

Manolito,

Here's some advice from a Coastie (retired O-5). With all due respect, I would not send a registered letter. All that you're going to get back is a polite reply suggesting that you seek legal advice from a qualified attorney.

Unfortunately, there are misguided, and misinformed, officers in all aspects of law enforcement. If you were to stack up all of the books containing sources of law, you'd have a pile more than 20 feet high. No human can remember all of that stuff. I'll fault those who "wing it", though I do understand.

I did have some issues with the manner of CG law enforcement. When I went through the Boarding Officer School in 1979, we were instructed to be very firm and directive in our manner. The officer in charge of the school learned to do boardings during operation "Market Time" in Vietnam. That background didn't translate so good to the U.S. recreational boating community. One of the discussions (OK - argument) that I got into with the instructors occurred after a role play exercise where I had "requested" to come aboard a boat to do an inspection. I was faulted for asking permission and thus suggesting to the person that he could refuse. My point (and I had previously served as police officer), was that by asking, I would more likely establish a positive rapport. If the person refused, well that wouldn't be the final word, and the boarding would still occur. I would also have the advantage of the "officer safety intelligence" that would prove helpful to the boarding.

The other aspect to the CG boardings, that is not shared by landside LEO's is that there really isn't any back-up out there and you have to provide accordingly.

shooter5
06-12-2012, 2:04 AM
Manolito,

I was faulted for asking permission and thus suggesting to the person that he could refuse. My point (and I had previously served as police officer), was that by asking, I would more likely establish a positive rapport. If the person refused, well that wouldn't be the final word, and the boarding would still occur. I would also have the advantage of the "officer safety intelligence" that would prove helpful to the boarding.



I appreciate your service in both the Guard and LEO but RESPECTFULLY disagree with your premiss.

While I believe your intention is GOOD, most civilians have no understanding of their rights and as a LEO you use this to your advantage, as you should.

HOWEVER... You have citizens like myself that UNDERSTAND their rights.. And as soon as we "decline" or submit that a warrant (on land obviously) is required, many officers use such "trepidation" as to un-invite you into our home as "cause" and do it anyway.. And as far as I'm concerned that's BS..

Case in point.. SDPD showed up at my home at 8pm last year in response to my nephews BAPTISM RECEPTION with a whopping crowd of 15 people...

Never mind the RAGING collage party (50+) across the street..

When "robo-cop" asked if he could come in my house I RESPECTFULLY DECLINED... I assured him that we would keep it down (amongst the booming house music across the street) and he insisted he had to come in my house..

He the asked why i didn't want to let him in, and I told him the TRUTH!

our kids are sleeping, we are just hanging outback by the fire and "once I invite you in my house, I cant tell you to leave"..

He insisted that he "just wants to talk to everyone", so when i turned to my friend and asked him to "bring everyone out front so the officers can talk to them" he just stepped in the door and as I asked for his warrant I was physically shoved to the floor and this "fine example" of the SDPD just stomped through my home and out back to freak out my guests and wake up our kids when we we just minding our own business..

When I stick up for LEO every day I have to deal with *****s like this? FOR NOTHING!

So my point is if you have such "authority" AT SEA and the Intent? STATE IT!

If your CG, and you can board at will..STATE IT and do your job..

If your LEO and your shocked some of us know our rights.. hell some LEO don't care anyway.. So just state your "Intent" and the "definition of the law" so we are all on the same page and we wont have to wonder if you a "good" or a "weasel" official..

That way I don't have to write ***** like this when I spend way more time sticking up for LEO..

Mako-Wish
06-12-2012, 8:37 AM
That's what I was afraid of. It doesn't really seem like there is a legitimate answer to these questions.

As for guns falling overboard... That sucks!!! Tie a lanyard or some para-cord onto them?

The boat does have a full galley and head. We have spent many weekends on the boat.

The boat is not trailered. Slipped in Dana Point, but any guns I carry onto the boat are locked and unloaded until we are at least out of the harbor anyway.

I know the USCG can board any vessel, for any reason, at any time, but what about LE? A lawyer previously told me that it all depends on why they are approaching you to begin with. According to him, if you are just out fishing and LE decides to board your boat, they must have a warrant or your permission. If they were called specifically to your boat for something, it still depends on the reason they were called out (and the reason would essentially have to be proven). I am not taking this as the word of god, but sounds reasonable to me. Any thoughts?

Still nothing official regarding how far off-shore you can shoot?

SWalt
06-12-2012, 9:40 AM
I appreciate your service in both the Guard and LEO but RESPECTFULLY disagree with your premiss.

While I believe your intention is GOOD, most civilians have no understanding of their rights and as a LEO you use this to your advantage, as you should.

HOWEVER... You have citizens like myself that UNDERSTAND their rights.. And as soon as we "decline" or submit that a warrant (on land obviously) is required, many officers use such "trepidation" as to un-invite you into our home as "cause" and do it anyway.. And as far as I'm concerned that's BS..

Case in point.. SDPD showed up at my home at 8pm last year in response to my nephews BAPTISM RECEPTION with a whopping crowd of 15 people...

Never mind the RAGING collage party (50+) across the street..

When "robo-cop" asked if he could come in my house I RESPECTFULLY DECLINED... I assured him that we would keep it down (amongst the booming house music across the street) and he insisted he had to come in my house..

He the asked why i didn't want to let him in, and I told him the TRUTH!

our kids are sleeping, we are just hanging outback by the fire and "once I invite you in my house, I cant tell you to leave"..

He insisted that he "just wants to talk to everyone", so when i turned to my friend and asked him to "bring everyone out front so the officers can talk to them" he just stepped in the door and as I asked for his warrant I was physically shoved to the floor and this "fine example" of the SDPD just stomped through my home and out back to freak out my guests and wake up our kids when we we just minding our own business..

When I stick up for LEO every day I have to deal with *****s like this? FOR NOTHING!

So my point is if you have such "authority" AT SEA and the Intent? STATE IT!

If your CG, and you can board at will..STATE IT and do your job..

If your LEO and your shocked some of us know our rights.. hell some LEO don't care anyway.. So just state your "Intent" and the "definition of the law" so we are all on the same page and we wont have to wonder if you a "good" or a "weasel" official..

That way I don't have to write ***** like this when I spend way more time sticking up for LEO..

This just pisses me off! Did you file a complaint? What was his justification for shoving you to the floor and entering without a warrant? Good thing for him CA doesn't have a law like the one Indiana just passed or he might have faced lawful lethal or grave bodily harm himself.

interstellar
06-12-2012, 10:29 AM
Glad to see other former Coasties here on the forum that aren't heavy handed E3s.

I can't explain the stress felt when going in to a dark space from a brightly lit deck to conduct a search. More than likely the E3 is more scared than the vessel's owner/operator and over emphasizes his/her bravado to conceal their nervousness. It's for this reason most boardings are conducted by experienced POs and not seaman.

Former QM3/DV - 12th and 14th Districts (Basswood/Sassafras/OAN) with lots of fishery boarding under my feet.


Manolito,

Here's some advice from a Coastie (retired O-5). With all due respect, I would not send a registered letter. All that you're going to get back is a polite reply suggesting that you seek legal advice from a qualified attorney.

Unfortunately, there are misguided, and misinformed, officers in all aspects of law enforcement. If you were to stack up all of the books containing sources of law, you'd have a pile more than 20 feet high. No human can remember all of that stuff. I'll fault those who "wing it", though I do understand.

I did have some issues with the manner of CG law enforcement. When I went through the Boarding Officer School in 1979, we were instructed to be very firm and directive in our manner. The officer in charge of the school learned to do boardings during operation "Market Time" in Vietnam. That background didn't translate so good to the U.S. recreational boating community. One of the discussions (OK - argument) that I got into with the instructors occurred after a role play exercise where I had "requested" to come aboard a boat to do an inspection. I was faulted for asking permission and thus suggesting to the person that he could refuse. My point (and I had previously served as police officer), was that by asking, I would more likely establish a positive rapport. If the person refused, well that wouldn't be the final word, and the boarding would still occur. I would also have the advantage of the "officer safety intelligence" that would prove helpful to the boarding.

The other aspect to the CG boardings, that is not shared by landside LEO's is that there really isn't any back-up out there and you have to provide accordingly.

RickD427
06-12-2012, 10:43 AM
That's what I was afraid of. It doesn't really seem like there is a legitimate answer to these questions.

As for guns falling overboard... That sucks!!! Tie a lanyard or some para-cord onto them?

The boat does have a full galley and head. We have spent many weekends on the boat.

The boat is not trailered. Slipped in Dana Point, but any guns I carry onto the boat are locked and unloaded until we are at least out of the harbor anyway.

I know the USCG can board any vessel, for any reason, at any time, but what about LE? A lawyer previously told me that it all depends on why they are approaching you to begin with. According to him, if you are just out fishing and LE decides to board your boat, they must have a warrant or your permission. If they were called specifically to your boat for something, it still depends on the reason they were called out (and the reason would essentially have to be proven). I am not taking this as the word of god, but sounds reasonable to me. Any thoughts?

Still nothing official regarding how far off-shore you can shoot?

Mako,

Check out some of the Calguns threads, you’d be really surprised how many Calgunners have experienced catastrophic losses of their firearms collections at sea. Most of these are variously described as “Boating Accidents”. When you read the content of some of those threads, I’m not sure that a lanyard would help.

I’m not in complete agreement that “the USCG can board any vessel, for any reason, at any time.” As practical matter, yes you can expect a USCG visit at any time of the day or night. The authority statutes that give LE authority to specified CG members are quite broad (14USC89 (Authority to make arrests and conduct searches) and 14USC143 (Defining CG members as Customs Officers)). At the same time those statutes are subordinate to the Constitution. When you combine 14USC89 with the “Closely Regulated” inspection authority previously discussed, that’ll allow a CG boarding pretty much anytime your boat is on, or near, the water. It would not allow inspection of a trailered boat sitting in your driveway. It’s also important to note the scope of the inspection is limited by its purpose. The inspector could check your engine room, tanks, navigation gear, but could not inspect your personal locker or seabag. On the other hand, if there is a border crossing and the CG member is acting under 14USC143, then scope of search is not limited and he would be able to check the locker and seabag. If there is probable cause to believe a crime has been committed, then the CG member can search as far as the PC applies (the old adage is that you can’t search in a desk drawer if you’re looking for an elephant). Regardless of what search authority is applied, the search still has to meet the Fourth Amendment’s requirement of “reasonableness”.

The Eng case involved a CG boarding. The content of the opinion would support an inspectional visit by a state or local LEO. The key point is “why is the LEO coming aboard?” If the agency has a program of checking safety gear on boats, they’re probably rock solid in coming on board. If the agency has never taken a safety role, and you’re the first vessel boarded, you’d probably have the making of a good court case.

In your lawyer’s example, there are a number of inspectional authorities possessed by California DFG officers. I’m not knowledgeable as to their content. They have been discussed in other threads. I would respectfully disagree with your attorney that a warrant would ever be needed for a boat that is underway. The scope of U.S. v Ross is broad enough that I cannot think of an example where it would not apply to an underway vessel. If your boat were in drydock, or on the hard, then a warrant would likely be needed for a PC-based search.

For shooting – you’re on real solid ground (bad pun, sorry, I meant water) when you’re 12 miles out. The reason I say that is 246.3 PC no longer applies. Inside 12 miles, you’ve got to deal it. If your discharge of a weapon “could result in injury or death to a person” you’ve got a problem. The word “could” really opens the section up for broad application. I would pretty much rule out any firing within a mile since your rounds “could” reach shore. If you’ve got good visibility and can establish a clear range, I would think you’re good firing past a mile, but then others could disagree with me. On land, I’ve seen 246.3 applied very broadly. I’ve done .50 Cal (M2) qualification fire from cutters in the waters between Catalina and San Clemente Islands. I’ve always done a “Security” broadcast on VHF 16, but that may also invite attention to your firing.

SWalt
06-12-2012, 11:00 AM
OP.....I am not a lawyer but it sounds to me like there are so many laws covering different aspects that its impossible to really know. "Safety" seems to give any LEA the ability to board a boat without a warrant and if they happen to see another "crime" being committed, arrest you for that offense. You might find answers in the hunting forums since you are dealing with F & G regulations too, if you are fishing. My guess is if you are past the 12 mile limit state LEA has no jurisdiction, unless they are pursuing you. But since you have to transverse the 12 mile limit, state laws will be enforced with in that zone. Just shooting from a boat in a safe manner in open water within the 12 mile limit, is a boat a "vehicle" would be my question.

old151
06-12-2012, 11:02 AM
Then once at sea, could you assemble your 30 round magazines?

RMP91
06-12-2012, 11:10 AM
Mako,

There are an incredible number of folks on this forum that are unbelievably "Fumble Fingered" when it comes to boats, guns, and water. Please be careful out there, good guns are hard to replace.

I spent years in the Coast Guard and was a designated Boarding Officer before moving to my current LE agency some 30 years ago. To answer your question you've got to consider two different sets of law (State and Federal) and you've also got to understand some unusual authorities possessed by LEOs on the water.

California State Law - Applies out to the twelve mile limit (extended from three miles in 1988). That includes the "evil looking guns", concealed carry, and reckless discharge laws. Just the same as if you were on the beach.

Federal Law - Also applies out to the 12 mile limit. It also applies aboard any U.S. documented, or U.S. state registered vessel, anywhere on the high seas and not in the jurisdiction of another state (refer to 18 USC 7). Once you're out past 12 miles (and assuming your boat is documented or registered), then only the federal law applies. There's a real dearth of federal law regulating firearms. Nothing directly addresses discharge. The only "evil" guns are the NFA stuff, and then only if you do not have the tax stamp. There's no federal law that matches California's "reckless discharge (PC 246.3)." Please be aware that gunfire at 1 min intervals is an international distress signal.

Search and Inspection Authorities - Here's where it really gets tricky. Your boat may have all of the properties of secondary residence (actually, for a lot of folks its their primary residence). But its also a vessel in a legal arena that is "Closely Regulated". Because a vessel has great capability to do harm if not properly maintained and operated, the law allows for inspection without need of "Probable Cause" (For discussion of the general principle in federal law, and for an application to state law, please refer to People v. Eng (California Court of Appeal, First District A094853)). This authority allows an LEO to inspect your vessel for proper equipment and operation. Any contraband or criminal evidence observed during the inspection may be seized, and may form the basis for more intrusive search.

Where there is "Probable Cause" to believe that contraband or criminal evidence may be found, a LEO has the same authority under U.S v Ross to conduct a warrantless search, to the extent supported by the PC.

Where it really gets interesting is in applying the "Border Search" authority to a boat. Whenever a person crosses the U.S. Border, they are subject to search without practical limitation and without need of probable cause (refer to U.S. v Ramsey (431 U.S. 606)). The border search authority does not only apply to folks crossing a border inbound to the U.S. It also applies to folks crossing the border leaving the U.S. (refer to U.S. v Odutayo (Fifth Circuit 03-20830)). There is no requirement for the search to occur right at the border. The law allows for the border search to occur at other locations, so long as there was an associated border crossing (refer to Almeida-Sanchez v. United States (413 U.S. 266)). Remember, there is an international border 12 miles offshore.

One of my most interesting boardings was off Catalina Island, we put a boarding party onto a large charter yacht to do an inspection. The boat had been chartered by a bunch of lawyers from one of the downtown law firms. The inevitable question was "by what authority are you going to search this boat?" I was the CO of the cutter, and when that was relayed back to me, I somehow sensed that it was not going to be a good day. I was surprised. Lawyers are trained to keep an open mind and read the law. When the boarding officer finished answering the question, the inspection went smoothly, and the lawyers sent a nice complementary letter to the District Admiral.

With all due respect to your military and law enforcement service, isn't this what Flare guns were for?

Mako-Wish
06-12-2012, 11:15 AM
Rick,

Thanks for the reply. Being a former Marine, I would never point a gun in any direction I believed would cause any danger to anybody (obviously unless I INTENDED to do harm). I fully understand ballistics of all the calibers I own, and I keep that in mind when shooting (.30-06 needs a better back-drop than my .45ACP, etc.). If I were 3 miles out, I know my .45 will never make it to shore if shooting parallel or into the water. The .30-06 however could possibly (unlikely, but possibly is good enough to say no) make it to shore on a ricochet.

I was actually surprised we were not looked at more closely a few weeks back. I'm sure everyone heard of the bails of marijuana found off Dana Point. We were out fishing that day, stayed on the boat off-shore that night, and watched CG Cutter Pike, along with Harbor Patrol, cruising up and down all night long. They didn't even seem to pay attention to us being out there. Maybe they scoped us with FLIR and determined we weren't what they were looking for, don't know.

As you said, with 246.3, there is some gray area. So what would you say is the best course of action to C.Y.A. if shooting where I think is safe? Just in case someone else disagrees (LE)? Pictures? GPS coords? Video of the surrounding area before shooting? Or are you at risk of 246.3 every time you squeeze one off inside 12 miles?

I have also shot some large caliber (.50, 20mm...) from the USS Boxer LHD-4 during SocEx, FleetEx, RimPac, and not near California, but WestPac as well. We did have a fishing vessel close to us one time that I believe was told to leave the area, because he bailed REAL quick-like before the shooting began.

Aside from driving out to BLM land to shoot, we are on the water every weekend and I would love to plink some off more often. I am just a bit leery of where is okay.

Mako-Wish
06-12-2012, 11:17 AM
Then once at sea, could you assemble your 30 round magazines?

I have heard this asked before also, and I never saw a solid answer. I believe it was on BloodyDecks.com. Guys were asking about hi-caps and tracers. My question was if tracers are illegal to possess in CA, how did you get them off the coast?? I would imagine outside 12 miles you would be okay, but again, how did you get them outside of 12 miles?

RickD427
06-12-2012, 11:26 AM
Glad to see other former Coasties here on the forum that aren't heavy handed E3s.

I can't explain the stress felt when going in to a dark space from a brightly lit deck to conduct a search. More than likely the E3 is more scared than the vessel's owner/operator and over emphasizes his/her bravado to conceal their nervousness. It's for this reason most boardings are conducted by experienced POs and not seaman.

Former QM3/DV - 12th and 14th Districts (Basswood/Sassafras/OAN) with lots of fishery boarding under my feet.

Good to meet you.

How'd you get two choice Buoy Tenders? I asked for any Patrol Cutter on the gulf (wanted to do drug interdiction). They sent me to the Confidence (when she was in Kodiak). For my second tour, I requested anything south of 33 north, they sent me to Alaskan District Office with the explanation "We gave you exactly what you wanted the first time, now you got to work with us. Shame on you if you weren't clear enough about which gulf you wanted". That's when I decided to return to a civilian LE career. Stayed in the reserves and took lots of AD assignments. Retired in 2003.

Did lots of fisheries in Alaska. Got to hook up the first Soviet Factory Ship seized under the Magnuson Act.

I have to agree with many that the professionalism of CG boarding could improve. The people are top-drawer, but you need to get a "critical mass" of skills for things to work. That's hard for a command to do with two-year tour rotations and boarding duties usually being a collateral assignment. I'm hoping that things will settle out with the new "Maritime Enforcement" rating.

KWB977
06-12-2012, 11:28 AM
Guess no more CC when Im wake boarding, it was uncomfortable anyway.

RickD427
06-12-2012, 11:30 AM
With all due respect to your military and law enforcement service, isn't this what Flare guns were for?

When it comes to distress signals, redundancy is probably a good thing. I would not want to be SOL if the flare gun decided to fail right when I needed it. But the context of my post was so that the OP would not inadvertantly send out a "Distress Signal" which would likely prompt a "Search and Rescue" operation which would really mess up his recreational shoot.

RMP91
06-12-2012, 11:34 AM
When it comes to distress signals, redundancy is probably a good thing. I would not want to be SOL if the flare gun decided to fail right when I needed it.

I see your point, but flares, when launched can remain airborne and bright for upwards of 20 minutes (the ones my family has on our boat anyway), maybe more. All bullets can do is make a REALLY loud noise, but leave no visual marker. Both audio and visual markings are key to being rescued if you're stranded on your boat.

I can understand where your coming from if the flare gun fails to fire, but that's rather rare to hear about, they have VERY few moving parts, which means less things that can break.

RickD427
06-12-2012, 11:38 AM
Rick,

Thanks for the reply. Being a former Marine, I would never point a gun in any direction I believed would cause any danger to anybody (obviously unless I INTENDED to do harm). I fully understand ballistics of all the calibers I own, and I keep that in mind when shooting (.30-06 needs a better back-drop than my .45ACP, etc.). If I were 3 miles out, I know my .45 will never make it to shore if shooting parallel or into the water. The .30-06 however could possibly (unlikely, but possibly is good enough to say no) make it to shore on a ricochet.

I was actually surprised we were not looked at more closely a few weeks back. I'm sure everyone heard of the bails of marijuana found off Dana Point. We were out fishing that day, stayed on the boat off-shore that night, and watched CG Cutter Pike, along with Harbor Patrol, cruising up and down all night long. They didn't even seem to pay attention to us being out there. Maybe they scoped us with FLIR and determined we weren't what they were looking for, don't know.

As you said, with 246.3, there is some gray area. So what would you say is the best course of action to C.Y.A. if shooting where I think is safe? Just in case someone else disagrees (LE)? Pictures? GPS coords? Video of the surrounding area before shooting? Or are you at risk of 246.3 every time you squeeze one off inside 12 miles?

I have also shot some large caliber (.50, 20mm...) from the USS Boxer LHD-4 during SocEx, FleetEx, RimPac, and not near California, but WestPac as well. We did have a fishing vessel close to us one time that I believe was told to leave the area, because he bailed REAL quick-like before the shooting began.

Aside from driving out to BLM land to shoot, we are on the water every weekend and I would love to plink some off more often. I am just a bit leery of where is okay.

As a practical matter, I'd feel comfortable firing a mile out if weather is clear, seas calm, and I can be assured nothing is in the water downrange. It would probably be good to video the range when you fire. The GPS will convince people where you were, but it will not give any information about other marine traffic in the area. If there's going to be a problematic encounter with LE, you'd likely know about before you're done tying up.

alfred1222
06-12-2012, 11:48 AM
all my guns got lost in a horrific freak boating accident, so watch out.

vincewarde
06-12-2012, 11:53 AM
If the boat has a head and a galley, it probably passes a a 2nd home. But don't take my word for it, check with the G/G.

In the case of a motor vehicle, it only qualifies as a residence when parked. When moving on the road, all the rules that apply to a car apply to a motorhome. (I don't know about trailers.)

I therefore would not rely on the "temporary residence" exemption unless anchored. This is not to say that other laws do not exist that would allow loaded firearms while underway.

jsragman
06-12-2012, 11:57 AM
Rick: thanks for your insightful, respectful responses.

Mako-Wish
06-12-2012, 12:49 PM
all my guns got lost in a horrific freak boating accident, so watch out.

Okay, I keep hearing about "losing guns" on their boat, but I cannot find anything doing a forum search. Care to elaborate?

SWalt
06-12-2012, 1:20 PM
Fortunately I'm rarely on the water so the chances are I won't lose them in an boating accident and not have to rebuild my collection. Although I can be very clumsy and forgetful at times, always losing this or that. Good to know you guys are just as clumsy as me! Always wanted to go duck hunting on a boat or go shooting on the ocean tho. Unfortunately for me if uncle sam ever outlaws firearms he knows where to find them :( I guess thats the breaks tho.

Glock22Fan
06-12-2012, 1:49 PM
With all due respect to your military and law enforcement service, isn't this what Flare guns were for?


There's a number of alternatives to flare guns.

For example, a burning oil barrel on deck (no, really, I am not making that up).

Another is flying the national flag upside down. This can be a problem for British vessels, as many people do not understand that the Union Flag (which is only a Union Jack when flown from the Jack Mast) has a right side up, and therefore cannot see the difference.

Glock22Fan
06-12-2012, 1:53 PM
Okay, I keep hearing about "losing guns" on their boat, but I cannot find anything doing a forum search. Care to elaborate?

For some people, it is a euphemism for "I have hidden my guns away so the Gubmint doesn't know where they are, and I have covered my tracks by pretending I lost them overboard."

Not that anyone here would do that of course.

Mako-Wish
06-12-2012, 2:33 PM
There's a number of alternatives to flare guns.

For example, a burning oil barrel on deck (no, really, I am not making that up).

No, you're not making that up. Just got my Captain's License about a year ago, and distress signals was obviously one of MANY topics. Kinda laughed at the burning barrel idea. Lighting an oil fire on my deck is the last thing I would want to do!

For some people, it is a euphemism for "I have hidden my guns away so the Gubmint doesn't know where they are, and I have covered my tracks by pretending I lost them overboard."

Not that anyone here would do that of course.

Oh, of course not!

DTOM CA!
06-12-2012, 3:37 PM
If "ignorance is no excuse for braking the law" then why can't each of us write to the Coast Guard, DMV, IRS, State and Federal Govt. and ask them for a hard copy of the laws we must abide by. If they don't send them how can we be held responsible ? Also if they are responsible to uphold these laws shouldn't we be able to quiz them every year to make sure the authorities know the CORRECT laws ?

Carnivore
06-12-2012, 3:55 PM
Been boating most of my life and carry a pistol all the time. I do not CC or loaded carry unless actively fishing for Maco or other large toothy fish I aim to keep. Other then that it is in a pelican case in the cuddy. I shoot often out there but make sure I am 5+miles out and that includes the islands as they are parks and don't care to get into it with the wardens (they are dip sh**s anyway).

Only been boarded by coast guard once and when asked if they could come aboard I told them the whole 4th amend speech but that I wouldn't physically stop them. I let them know my glock is on board and where (that will check it and run serial numbers) so be ready. I know the whole 4th thing will not stop them but if they find anything (they won't) I at least have that to bring up in court if it were to get that far. I make sure nothing illegal is on board and follow all DFG rules so I don't think I will have a hassle. They just thanked me and moved on.

If you get your boat checked by the coastguard aux every year before going out at least you can point to the window sticker and say you have been inspected already. I have heard in some cases they move on to others if they are in the little boat. If it the cutter they are just being douches and will still board.

interstellar
06-12-2012, 7:59 PM
^^^^^^^

Dumb Sh** and Douches!

I bet you won't call them that when they pick your *** out of the water some stormy night after you pissed yourself from fear.

Make sure you put the "No assistance needed from Douches!" sticker on the windshield so they can identify you and respond correctly.

I get the whole less government, no police state thing, but I think you should go a little easier on the negative CG comments. 90% of their job is to risk their lives to save your ***, when you screw up - another 5% is to keep you from screwing up. The remaining 5% is **** work nobody likes but it needs to be done.

Semper Paratus and have a nice day.

DiscoBayJoe
06-12-2012, 8:15 PM
Ok to Shoot Skeet from the Bow?

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/Sleepercp/Boat%20Pics/BoatinPool.jpg

KWalkerM
06-12-2012, 9:01 PM
IANAL. Game Wardens, IIRC, can demand to check any Containers that can be capable of holding fish if there is evidence of fishing/hunting. So basically if you having fishing equipment, wardens can check livewells, tackleboxes, lunch bags etc. I dont know about boarding the vessel though. I would assume that they can board the vessel to search for illegally taken fish/undersized fish in the boat.

Just to reiterate. I am not a lawyer and i picked up this info from F&G warden ride alongs.

ar15robert
06-13-2012, 6:07 PM
If you are on a boat it can be boarded by any LEO on the water.All in the name of a safety check on the lakes it could be the lake patrol in the ocean it can be harbor patrols,local LEO,DFG or coast guard.

Manolito
06-13-2012, 6:50 PM
RMP91 Look at the expiration date of the flares. The flare itself does not last very long. The flares both smoke and burning can not be seen in dense fog. Sound carries for an incredible distance on water.

I would be interested in knowing what type of flare lasts 20 minutes? When we recerted the life rafts the flares did not last more than 40 seconds a minute at best. http://gcaptain.com/flares-meets-eye?8526


Shooting at sea is a lifetime of reading to try and understand the laws. This may help some http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/staff/law_of_sea.html
Respectfully,
Bill

Carnivore
06-13-2012, 7:23 PM
^^^^^^^

Dumb Sh** and Douches!

I bet you won't call them that when they pick your *** out of the water some stormy night after you pissed yourself from fear.

Make sure you put the "No assistance needed from Douches!" sticker on the windshield so they can identify you and respond correctly.

I get the whole less government, no police state thing, but I think you should go a little easier on the negative CG comments. 90% of their job is to risk their lives to save your ***, when you screw up - another 5% is to keep you from screwing up. The remaining 5% is **** work nobody likes but it needs to be done.

Semper Paratus and have a nice day. Oh great another one of "THOSE" guys. How is the view from the ivory tower you are on? Look if they actually did do that out here then I would be all for it but they don't. If you are dieing they will send out a helo but if you are in danger or foundering, or adrift with a dead boat they don't come out and save the day they will tell you to call vessel assist or sea tow so you can pay for the help you get. To bad you don't have a clue what you are complaining about. This isn't the Bering Sea it is Southern California which leaves them all the time in the world to practice boarding drills on every boat they see. Get off the couch and stop watching Deadliest catch those guys earn their stripes down here not so much.

If they see that I have been inspected already and moved on I wouldn't have any complaint but they don't. That is why I like the guys in the inflatables. They are out just having fun and if you have been inspected they just move along.


Game wardens are a completely other story. Those idiots have given me 7 tickets all that I beat and not because I am so wonderful and brilliant or what ever it is because they are mental midget want-a-be cops and very rarely know what they are doing. If you have ever seen just one of those wild Justice train wreck shows you would know what I am talking about.