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GettoPhilosopher
06-11-2012, 12:41 PM
Paging Bill or Librarian?

For Fed GFSZ compliance, I need to lock my long gun cases. Unfortunately, they all have those zippers with the ?paracord? pulls instead of a metal zipper. I doubt that is good enough to count as a locked case, so I've been putting my rifle bags in a duffel bag and locking that.

Is there a better way? I can fit a key ring in the zipper pull and use that, but again, not exactly a locked case. Could I solder the key ring together?

Worth mentioning: I have a new baby daughter, so "buy new cases" isn't really an option right now. Any suggestions for legally fixing my current cases?

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

NotEnufGarage
06-11-2012, 1:02 PM
Install grommets alongside the zipper and weave a cable lock through them?

duggan
06-11-2012, 2:22 PM
I bought two small metal rings (keychain style) put those through the holes in the zipper and run a regular padlock through the rings. I guess you could put solder or jb weld on the rings so that they cant be seperated but for now I roll with the rings in their stock form.

Cactus_Tim
06-11-2012, 2:31 PM
I installed #10 split rings from Turner's.
You get them in the fishing dept. for attaching lures.
You really can't work these split rings without tools.
I had to use dikes and pliers to open them up to install them.

http://users.sdsc.edu/~tmcnew/gallery/case1.jpg

A lock for the rifle compartment and a lock for the pistol compartment.
That should satisfy the requirements. Wouldn't it?

http://users.sdsc.edu/~tmcnew/gallery/case2.jpg

Librarian
06-11-2012, 3:35 PM
I'll reiterate my concern over split rings; understanding that these particular examples are difficult to manipulate, split rings are designed to be 'openable'.

That strikes me as skating on thin ice. Sometimes it will support you, sometimes you fall through.

But since there are no standards for 'secure' in "a secure container that is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar locking device" ....

bohoki
06-11-2012, 4:10 PM
i suggest you use combination locks i prefer the cheapest 3 digit luggage type i would have to loose a key

heyjerr
06-11-2012, 4:32 PM
I'm not sure what the official definition of a "lock" is, but would suspect it requires being opened with something officially defined as a "key". Since the rings could be removed with just a small flathead screwdriver, I do not (personal opinion) believe you have met the definition.

Of course I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to even play one on TV. ;)

artoaster
06-11-2012, 4:49 PM
Heck, why not have bullet or cartridge as tool to unlock the d*mn thing!

YubaRiver
06-11-2012, 4:56 PM
http://cattarp.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/p1010004.jpg

1/16" galvy cable and aluminum swages from the hardware or bike store.
Crimp the swages with pliers to form permanent cut resistant loops through the
zipper sliders where the cords are now. Then your padlocks can be attached to the
wire loops to a grommet in the bag on the end of the zipper.

(Not sure how to involve the bullets in the process.)

Oh, IANAL and don't know if this would work to meet any laws.

chris12
06-11-2012, 5:08 PM
But since there are no standards for 'secure' in "a secure container that is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar locking device" ....

How do you feel about the case having a zipper? Those split rings are likely much harder to open than the zipper. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf-DGKUNffI

choprzrul
06-11-2012, 5:35 PM
I don't see a problem with the split rings. Librarian makes a valid argument that they are designed to be opened, but then again so is a padlock. The padlock uses a key to open it and the split rings require a tool to open them. Either way, a key is an opening tool the same as a pair of split ring pliers are an opening tool.

Can a 10 year old with 10 minutes open it? If not, I personally would consider it locked. 'Locked' surely cannot be interpreted to mean impenetrable. After all, the Maginot Line was supposed to lock France, but with the right tools it got opened up...


IANAL & YMMV. Just my $.02

.

Chaos47
06-11-2012, 5:57 PM
Not trying to troll but zippers are not secure no matter what. Take a simple ball point pen and jam it between the teeth and it will pop right open.

But like Libraian said
there are no standards for 'secure'

IMO adding metal rings that are only open able by a tool to use a lock on string pulls is probably a good idea to just help you along with a police encounter.

Librarian
06-11-2012, 7:01 PM
How do you feel about the case having a zipper? Those split rings are likely much harder to open than the zipper. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf-DGKUNffI

I personally use hard cases with built-in locks; that avoids the whole issue of zippers.

That's not a requirement, but it does skip over a lot of ambiguity.

wjc
06-11-2012, 7:10 PM
Just to throw my .02 into the fray....

I picked up a Mat that's similar to what Cactus_tim has and it's non-complient zipper pulls. Here's what I was thinking of doing to get it compliant....

At the hardware store, you can buy steel rings that are welded shut. they're mainly used for rope-work, i.e pulleys, and whatnot.

I was going to get a couple, cut them, and take them to my friendly neighborhood welder and ask him to weld them back together after they are on the zippers.

I would then have two steel rings, welded onto the zipper pulls and could lock them without having the ability to get them off without a hacksaw.

What do you think?

donw
06-12-2012, 12:07 PM
Just to throw my .02 into the fray....

I picked up a Mat that's similar to what Cactus_tim has and it's non-complient zipper pulls. Here's what I was thinking of doing to get it compliant....

At the hardware store, you can buy steel rings that are welded shut. they're mainly used for rope-work, i.e pulleys, and whatnot.

I was going to get a couple, cut them, and take them to my friendly neighborhood welder and ask him to weld them back together after they are on the zippers.

I would then have two steel rings, welded onto the zipper pulls and could lock them without having the ability to get them off without a hacksaw.

What do you think?

there are chain links that have a threaded on nut that closes the opening.

simply get the smallest one available for your application and epoxy the threads when installing. i've made gate lock chains that way, but i brazed the links closed.

there are also split link chain links that are similar to split rings and it takes a great effort to crimp them shut.

unusedusername
06-12-2012, 1:49 PM
I'll reiterate my concern over split rings; understanding that these particular examples are difficult to manipulate, split rings are designed to be 'openable'.

That strikes me as skating on thin ice. Sometimes it will support you, sometimes you fall through.


If they require a tool to be opened then you could just use a knife and cut open the container. There isn't too many gun cases that would hold up to a good set of tools. (Lockpicks?, Sledgehammer?)

Personally I would not be too worried about the thick split-rings. I would also avoid the thinner split rings as they are flimsy.


But since there are no standards for 'secure' in "a secure container that is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar locking device" ....

I like the "10 year old" rule proposed here. If an average 10 year old could get it open on the witness stand without using tools then it isn't secure.

I agree though that there isn't a good definition for what is secure, only a good one for what isn't secure.

wjc
06-12-2012, 3:46 PM
there are chain links that have a threaded on nut that closes the opening.

simply get the smallest one available for your application and epoxy the threads when installing. i've made gate lock chains that way, but i brazed the links closed.

there are also split link chain links that are similar to split rings and it takes a great effort to crimp them shut.

You're missing the point of what I described. I don't want something that I can take apart.

Re-welding the ring would tend to prove that I can't undue it easily.

Wherryj
06-13-2012, 11:32 AM
I'll reiterate my concern over split rings; understanding that these particular examples are difficult to manipulate, split rings are designed to be 'openable'.

That strikes me as skating on thin ice. Sometimes it will support you, sometimes you fall through.

But since there are no standards for 'secure' in "a secure container that is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar locking device" ....

I would consider this an opening for a zealous DA as well. Perhaps welding the ring closed after passing it through?

Munk
06-14-2012, 2:53 AM
Use a crimped link from a chain. Use some pliers to open it up, get it through the hole, then use the pliers to bend it back into position.

You could also get a smaller lock that can go through the holes that he paracord is run through (think luggage locks), I have some that I run through the smallest part of a zipper-pull, and I can get it through both zippers, or a zipper and a D-ring. If you like, you can take this a step further, instead of the split rings... use the locks I mentioned, one for each zipperpull and then run a larger lock through those two smaller locks. If you want to increase the security by zero, but disable the key, you can epoxy up the keyholes on them so that you can only remove the small locks with pliers or other cutters.

fastpowerstroker
06-14-2012, 7:49 AM
I like the idea with the cable and lead crimps. If anyone is gonna weld stuff to the zippers. How are you gonna keep from melting your nice rifle bags? I think the split ring idea is good also.

Californio
06-14-2012, 9:40 AM
Copper Nicro-Press Swage fittings work great but are on the large side and overkill.

Try a Saltwater Tackle Shop and look for the braided stainless leader wire, thin and tuff. The simple swage fittings that are used on leaders are plenty tuff. I make two small swaged loops in the meat of the zipper top and call it done, they will not separate on a 1,000lb fish, that is good enough for me.

As been stated nylon zippers are easily defeated.

Decoligny
06-14-2012, 10:36 AM
I'm not sure what the official definition of a "lock" is, but would suspect it requires being opened with something officially defined as a "key". Since the rings could be removed with just a small flathead screwdriver, I do not (personal opinion) believe you have met the definition.

Of course I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to even play one on TV. ;)

A lock could be cut with just a small hacksaw or a boltcutter.
This is a cloth bag. You could use a razorblade and open the whole thing in a fraction of a second.
It comes down to how secure is legally secure. If you have to use a tool to open it, I would consider it secure.

Of course I'm not a lawyer, but I did play a USMC Full Bird Colonel on an episode of JAG. :)