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View Full Version : Divorce and Protecting Guns and Self from bitter spouse


Shinobi'sZ
06-10-2012, 10:49 AM
I have a friend whose divorce just went south from being amicable to bitter. He has quite a few firearms and asked me how to protect himself and guns, I told him get a lawyer but feel like that was a cliche thing to tell him.

Any advice on what he can do to protect himself, this might be helpful for more people to understand as well, as I'm clueless to help him.

1911su16b870
06-10-2012, 10:53 AM
Give the guns to his father, mother, sons or daughters to hold while it works itself out.

ETA: They will need to be a non-prohibited person and a HSC card if they are pistols.

Demonicspire
06-10-2012, 10:53 AM
Well, IIRC he only stands to lose the guns if he's been violent. Of course she could claim it, and the authorities could be overly sympathetic and just ding him without proof. If he wants to be super safe, arrange for their storage somewhere she has no access to. Are you saying she wants the guns as part of the settlement? Or is this a divorce advice thread? I'm not sure the specific threat to the guns here.

Super Spy
06-10-2012, 10:55 AM
Transfer all the guns to a friend for a lowball price, give the ex half the money, when the divorce is final buy them all back. This does need to be done smartly, lowball price, not ridiculous price. If she gets half the bucks she will probably be happy. If she's a gunny too things could get ugly.

SilverTauron
06-10-2012, 11:01 AM
He needs to see an attorney quick fast and in a hurry.Proper advice for the disposition of the firearms should come from a competent legal authority and not from this public forum. Depending on the nature of the case, transferring or selling the guns to avoid seizure consequent to being served a restraining order may be misinterpreted in court as a ploy to keep property from the ex.

CALI-gula
06-10-2012, 11:01 AM
I have a friend whose divorce just went south from being amicable to bitter. He has quite a few firearms and asked me how to protect himself and guns, I told him get a lawyer but feel like that was a cliche thing to tell him.

Any advice on what he can do to protect himself, this might be helpful for more people to understand as well, as I'm clueless to help him.

Even if just an amicable divorce and she doesn't have any interest in the guns or their value, tell him to beware of her attorney adding in a standard restraining order clause in the divorce paperwork even when there is no aspects of violence or even reason to believe there ever would be; some attorneys do this as standard CYA for themselves, considering how weird divorce parties can get later. With the restraining order as standard wording, the attorney puts an element of protection in the paperwork for his client and himself so his client can't come back later and claim his oversight.

Tell him to read any divorce paperwork carefully. Many people go straight to the "what's his/what's hers" sections and miss this part about the R/O. It can cause a gun owner some trouble.

.

Shinobi'sZ
06-10-2012, 11:02 AM
Well, IIRC he only stands to lose the guns if he's been violent. Of course she could claim it, and the authorities could be overly sympathetic and just ding him without proof. If he wants to be super safe, arrange for their storage somewhere she has no access to. Are you saying she wants the guns as part of the settlement? Or is this a divorce advice thread? I'm not sure the specific threat to the guns here.

From what I understand she has threatened a restraining order against him, this is why I told him not to talk to her and get an attorney. I should have clarified, what should he do if she files a restraining order against him? It's either surrender or sell right?

Demonicspire
06-10-2012, 11:05 AM
From what I understand she has threatened a restraining order against him, this is why I told him not to talk to her and get an attorney. I should have clarified, what should he do if she files a restraining order against him? It's either surrender or sell right?

Well doesn't she have to have it granted? TBF that's often pretty easy for the woman. I'm not a lawyer, but he might want to consider beating her to the punch by getting his own restraining order in first. That at least will weirden the game up. Probably the best is to find a guy who can legally have his guns and give them away. Then once its died down ,the guy can give them back. I don't think you need paperwork if money doesn't change hands.

OleCuss
06-10-2012, 11:06 AM
If there's a restraining order it's generally surrender or sell.

His lawyer is his best friend. And if he sells the firearms before any restraining order, it just might make it more difficult to slap a restraining order on him (he should check on that with his attorney).

CALI-gula
06-10-2012, 11:08 AM
From what I understand she has threatened a restraining order against him...

Bummer. It's very easy to get a TRO in CA. While it's a lot of paperwork and time, you don't need an attorney to do it, and Judges are very sympathetic to the purposes, especially if he has given her any credible reason why a TRO would be granted. The TRO is as damaging as an R/O, until he attends the R/O hearing to make his case as to why we request for a restraining order is not warranted.

CALI-gula
06-10-2012, 11:10 AM
Well doesn't she have to have it granted? TBF that's often pretty easy for the woman. I'm not a lawyer, but he might want to consider beating her to the punch by getting his own restraining order in first. T

TRO is just as applicable, until a hearing where he can defend why it's not warranted. And the part in bold - that, do that. Retaliatory TROs by the party subject to the original filing are usually not granted.

.

Demonicspire
06-10-2012, 11:13 AM
TRO is just as applicable, until a hearing where he can defend why it's not warranted. And the part in bold - that, do that. Retaliatory TROs by the party subject to the original filing are usually not granted.

.

yeah, if he has some kind of bitter email where she threatened to destroy him and all he loves or the like, he might stand a reasonable chance of getting one. That might open up the floodgates, but if it is a bitter divorce, that kind of stuff was going to come up anyway, so might as well get some use out of it.

Ceseuron
06-10-2012, 11:21 AM
Actually, a restraining order is rather difficult to get in California if there is no established history of domestic violence or harassment. Speaking from relatively recent experience, I was seeing a woman who turned out to be VERY unstable and more than a little insane. I broke it off due to this and inquired about filing a restraining order. I was informed that the court wouldn't consider any order, temporary or permanent, if there was no probable cause to warrant it. Hersay and accusations do not constitute probable cause. This was a little less than a year ago and they probably have it set up like this to prevent the court from wasting time on frivolous RO requests from parties with an axe to grind.

SilverTauron
06-10-2012, 11:29 AM
Actually, a restraining order is rather difficult to get in California if there is no established history of domestic violence or harassment. Speaking from relatively recent experience, I was seeing a woman who turned out to be VERY unstable and more than a little insane. I broke it off due to this and inquired about filing a restraining order. I was informed that the court wouldn't consider any order, temporary or permanent, if there was no probable cause to warrant it. Hersay and accusations do not constitute probable cause. This was a little less than a year ago and they probably have it set up like this to prevent the court from wasting time on frivolous RO requests from parties with an axe to grind.

It must be remembered that crazy people, male and female, do not tend to have a strong moral fiber. In my experience women are well aware of the damage a RO can do to a man's life and reputation, and as such have no reservations about making up "probable cause" if need be to get one. How can the court know that her claims that you threatened her with your firearms are baseless bunk? More importantly, they aren't in a position to ask if it is true-they'll grant the TRO as basic CYA , since no one wants to be on the evening news as the officer who denied a restraining order right before the requester turned up dead.

In the hearing for a permanent restraining order the judge will determine real quick that its a load of horse droppings, but by then your guns will already be at the FFL's display case or in a police department storage room.

CALI-gula
06-10-2012, 11:31 AM
Actually, a restraining order is rather difficult to get in California if there is no established history of domestic violence or harassment. Speaking from relatively recent experience, I was seeing a woman who turned out to be VERY unstable and more than a little insane. I broke it off due to this and inquired about filing a restraining order. I was informed that the court wouldn't consider any order, temporary or permanent, if there was no probable cause to warrant it. Hersay and accusations do not constitute probable cause. This was a little less than a year ago and they probably have it set up like this to prevent the court from wasting time on frivolous RO requests from parties with an axe to grind.

No, it's easy to get with measurable evidence or incidents. Correct, your case might not have gone through, unless you had some form of incident or evidence. But if she had a history of violence, you might have been surprised if they checked her background and saw your fears of her actions as credible. It sounds like this situation has more going on.

Only takes 1 call or incident for police involvement on record over a dispute. Or, only takes one piece of evidence of a threat like an email or voicemail. True, heresy doesn't fly with a judge, and they do check the background of both parties before he grants it. They don't only go off the submission.

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Demonicspire
06-10-2012, 11:34 AM
True, heresy doesn't fly with a judge
.

Sorry I know you meant "hearsay" but that typo tickles me.

CALI-gula
06-10-2012, 11:35 AM
It must be remembered that crazy people, male and female, do not tend to have a strong moral fiber. In my experience women are well aware of the damage a RO can do to a man's life and reputation, and as such have no reservations about making up "probable cause" if need be to get one. How can the court know that her claims that you threatened her with your firearms are baseless bunk? More importantly, they aren't in a position to ask if it is true-they'll grant the TRO as basic CYA , since no one wants to be on the evening news as the officer who denied a restraining order right before the requester turned up dead.

In the hearing for a permanent restraining order the judge will determine real quick that its a load of horse droppings, but by then your guns will already be at the FFL's display case or in a police department storage room.

Exactly. The TRO does not require much. One incident. Or one witness at the TRO. Or police reporting just once even if nobody was arrested. The party subject to the TRO filing has a less than favorable background (any arrest for A&B, history of prior R/Os, etc.) The eventual R/O does need more, but the TRO is often granted on shreds.

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CALI-gula
06-10-2012, 11:37 AM
Sorry I know you meant "hearsay" but that typo tickles me.

I wrote hearsay, but must have typed a letter/order wrong - I'm notorious for typing my e's and a's backwards - spell-check corrected it to heresy! :mad:

.

tbhracing
06-10-2012, 12:11 PM
Chicks are crazy, want money and the divorce just elevates the entire ordeal. Tell your friend not to trust me and take every step to protect himself, his assets, his retirement and firearms!

Shinobi'sZ
06-10-2012, 12:19 PM
I wrote hearsay, but must have typed a letter/order wrong - I'm notorious for typing my e's and a's backwards - spell-check corrected it to heresy! :mad:

.

If a TRO or RO is issued, and he surrenders his guns to Law Enforcement, do you know if he will get them back if the TRO or RO is lifted or withdrawn after the hearing. I remember back in the 80's the Sheriff in my town was going through a divorce and his wife filed an R/O, because of it he was not allowed to carry a gun..but he was the Sheriff...I heard that it was the case that changed the law so that if carrying a gun was a requirement of the job that it would not mean surrendering the gun...but the guy I'm talking about isn't a LEO.

So should I tell him if his wife files an RO, just to surrender to the LEO and he will get back his property if it is proved to be a bogus RO after the hearing? I mean if it's not bogus he is prohibited from owning the firearms for 10 years anyway based on the information I have read.

SilverTauron
06-10-2012, 2:02 PM
If a TRO or RO is issued, and he surrenders his guns to Law Enforcement, do you know if he will get them back if the TRO or RO is lifted or withdrawn after the hearing. I remember back in the 80's the Sheriff in my town was going through a divorce and his wife filed an R/O, because of it he was not allowed to carry a gun..but he was the Sheriff...I heard that it was the case that changed the law so that if carrying a gun was a requirement of the job that it would not mean surrendering the gun...but the guy I'm talking about isn't a LEO.

So should I tell him if his wife files an RO, just to surrender to the LEO and he will get back his property if it is proved to be a bogus RO after the hearing? I mean if it's not bogus he is prohibited from owning the firearms for 10 years anyway based on the information I have read.

He would need to file a document with the DOJ to have the guns legally returned to him, at a $25 fee per firearm.Looking at this another way the safest place for the weapons may just be the police department armory. I don't like the idea either, but no matter how this turns out he's going to loose access to the guns during the divorce proceedings. With the weapons in Law Enforcement custody, the ex's lawyers cant make a pratical claim against selling the guns as part of the settlement, especially since it costs money to have the weapons released.

The choice the ex wife faces is either have a restraining order served-and lose access to half the OP's gun collection, or don't file one and preserve the option of taking half the weapons value. She can't have it both ways, unless I missed something.

loose_electron
06-10-2012, 2:06 PM
Get an attorney with expertise in family and divorce law.

Get their advice, trying to hide or transfer
assets can lead to a more expensive outcome.

stitchnicklas
06-10-2012, 2:23 PM
give all firearms to a family member,use a dealer if necessary .
inform disgruntled spouse that you have moved all firearms away but are not hiding them from her.if she wants a portion in the divorce then she will have a legal right to them.selling to a friend is hiding assets and a no no.

just take firearms out of the equation and use proper control of mouth with ex,use a recording mic if needed for he said/she said protection

dantodd
06-10-2012, 2:33 PM
Move the guns before the TRO is served,nthat way he has options. After the TRO is served he MUST SELL them to an FFL (no PPT) or turn them in to the police. Either way he'll be unarmed for some period of time and denied his 2A rights.

Remember though that if they were acquired within the arrive they may well be community property so he may still lose some/all of them depending upon just how angry and vindictive she is.

loose_electron
06-10-2012, 3:17 PM
Get a lawyer.
Get their advice.

Librarian
06-10-2012, 3:46 PM
See also the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Protective_or_Restraining_orders

Lawmonkey33
06-10-2012, 5:09 PM
Email me on Monday (no charge) - marc at dionlawoffice dot com

tbhracing
06-10-2012, 5:29 PM
Email me on Monday (no charge) - marc at dionlawoffice dot com

I love seeing brothers helping brothers. Marc- let me buy you a beer some day.

Lawmonkey33
06-10-2012, 7:33 PM
Thanks - just doing my part .....

jeep7081
06-10-2012, 8:01 PM
If she seeks a restraint order. Which is common until things cool down. Tell him to ask for a non "CLETS" order. This will keep his firearms, she gets her restraint order. After 90 days, and him have zero contact with her, have him ask the Judge to remove it. Now, if he has threaten her before with a firearm, all beats are off.

dls
06-10-2012, 8:07 PM
He's getting a divorce, it's gone South and he doesn't already have an attorney?
Transfer the guns and get an attorney regardless of the firearm situation.

tbhracing
06-10-2012, 8:33 PM
Just FYI, not all TROs are mandatory for firearms surrender. Depends on the case and court's opinion. Here is a copy I have from an old case where the box wasn't checked. (and no, it was not served against me)

http://img.tapatalk.com/44188398-66ed-4f1c.jpg

erik_26
06-10-2012, 8:48 PM
If someone wants to submit a Bill, perhaps something that would protect a Man or Woman with guns during a divorce. Meaning, one should not have to surrender property just because they are mad at each other and going through divorce.

There should be no need to transfer assets of any kind.

Murder is illegal already. If the guy or girl kills the other, well there is an app for that.