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CocoTiTs
06-09-2012, 1:45 PM
Hey.

I am in need of Crime statistics for firearm dealership locations, shooting ranges, and also along with those statistics showing the affect both have on thier surrounding city/area.

I do not know where to start and am waiting to talk to a fellow friend in law enforcement who is on vacation at the moment.

Any fellow cal-gunners know where I can get this important information?

spgripside
06-09-2012, 4:18 PM
Crime maps and stats for individual areas of Los Angeles can be found here (http://projects.latimes.com/mapping-la/neighborhoods/). It's a start, if nothing else.

Librarian
06-09-2012, 4:50 PM
This sounds like another LCAV attempt to get their favorite laws implemented on some unsuspecting town.

Please provide more info - you may get a lot of help in short order.

ETA every time this has been done, the data show no correlation whatsoever with crime of any kind and the business locations you specify.

fizux
06-09-2012, 9:57 PM
Hey.

I am in need of Crime statistics for firearm dealership locations, shooting ranges, and also along with those statistics showing the affect both have on thier surrounding city/area.

I do not know where to start and am waiting to talk to a fellow friend in law enforcement who is on vacation at the moment.

Any fellow cal-gunners know where I can get this important information?

John Lott has done a lot of similar research -- you may want to look at the revised edition of his book. If you go to one of his presentations IRL, he will usually spend quite a bit of time answering individual questions such as yours, and may have some data on point.

fizux
06-09-2012, 10:06 PM
(duplicate post deleted)

BanjoGunner
06-10-2012, 6:02 AM
It's not much, but Sunnyvale did a Firearms Sales Study last year and the resulting report (http://sunnyvale.ca.gov/Portals/0/Sunnyvale/NonCouncilReports/pc/2011/pc-2011-7071.pdf) contained a single page map (p35) showing no correlation between firearms business locations and gun crimes. Unfortunately, none of the underlying data is included, only the map.

jdberger
06-10-2012, 8:00 AM
The Sunnyvale Report linked above is an amazing resource.

CocoTiTs
06-10-2012, 10:17 AM
Thank you everyone. I'll look into those links. I am applying for my ffl and my local police chief for the location says NO he will not support a dealer at my location. I will not get approval from ATF if when they call he's against. So I decided I need much more information so I can bring this to city councils attention and hope for support there. I thought with statistics like these it would be a very good argument and would make it slightly more difficult to ignore my request with no backing.

CocoTiTs
06-10-2012, 10:51 AM
Wow that Sunnyvale study is VERY informative and actually debunks a lot of the concerns of the chief in his reasons for being against my proposed dealer location. Thank you.

Did the planning devision do this research for Sunnyvale? Would this be done for my city?

Flopper
06-10-2012, 11:03 AM
The Sunnyvale study showed not only that the areas around FFL's had LESS crime, but that the areas around schools had MORE crime. . .

CocoTiTs
06-10-2012, 11:50 AM
Haven't got that far but that is good news for my endeavor!

wjc
06-10-2012, 6:10 PM
The Sunnyvale report was done *by* the Sunnyvale Planning Commission. It was instrumental in proving the case to the City Council that there was no correlation between crime increases and gun shops.

Andy (if I remember correctly) from the Planning Commssion actually did a pretty good job on it and keeping it objective.

CocoTiTs
06-10-2012, 9:22 PM
I've read a lot of it and they really did very well staying unbiased and factual on there conclusions.

jdberger
06-10-2012, 10:55 PM
OP - could you either send me a PM or an email at joshua[DOT]berger[at]calgunsfdn[DOT]org with details of your application, please?

The Calguns Foundation is interested in denials of applications.

Thanks.

wildhawker
06-10-2012, 11:50 PM
I'll second Josh's request and also note that Cal-FFL (http://calffl.org) is also interested in these issues.

-Brandon

stix213
06-11-2012, 12:29 AM
The Sunnyvale report was done *by* the Sunnyvale Planning Commission. It was instrumental in proving the case to the City Council that there was no correlation between crime increases and gun shops.

Andy (if I remember correctly) from the Planning Commssion actually did a pretty good job on it and keeping it objective.

I think part of the reason was because us gun owners put a lot of pressure on them during public meetings. They had to keep things on the level cause they knew a lot of people were watching this one.

CocoTiTs
06-12-2012, 4:25 PM
OP - could you either send me a PM or an email at joshua[DOT]berger[at]calgunsfdn[DOT]org with details of your application, please?

The Calguns Foundation is interested in denials of applications.

Thanks.

I'm sorry I don't know what OP is but are you asking me ?
I haven't been denied yet but it will be if city council doesn't work out.

fizux
06-13-2012, 5:42 AM
Original Poster

mud99
06-13-2012, 8:10 AM
I'm seriously concerned that you are considering becoming an FFL without being an active participant on this board.

California gun laws are very complex with severe penalties including jail sentences for violating them.

Do not ask LEO for advice. Most of them don't know anything about gun laws, especially the ones which affect you as a dealer.

CocoTiTs
06-13-2012, 11:31 AM
I appreciate that. I read as much as I can. But yes I am relatively new the the scene. This is a dream of mine that I have just started researching since late April. All the help n support is recommended n supported by myself.

45acpfan
06-13-2012, 11:48 AM
What city are you applying in?

CocoTiTs
06-13-2012, 5:03 PM
Pittsburg

wildhawker
06-13-2012, 5:12 PM
Coco, to restate, please keep me and Josh informed of progress and issues. Do consider engaging counsel as the process can be something of a [legal, political, and PR] minefield - especially in the Bay Area/CoCoCounty.

-Brandon

jrwhitt
06-13-2012, 6:07 PM
We could do with some new FFL's out here in the far reaches of CoCo County so please listen to Brandon and Josh - they won't guide you wrong.

wjc
06-13-2012, 7:36 PM
I think part of the reason was because us gun owners put a lot of pressure on them during public meetings. They had to keep things on the level cause they knew a lot of people were watching this one.

Well...yeah!

One Hundred plus gun owners at a city council meeting can kinda have that effect.

:43:

CocoTiTs
06-13-2012, 9:08 PM
Brandon an josh thank you! Along with everyone else too. I really had no idea calguns was this helpful. I will Definately keep updates. Where should I post the updates is this the right section? And I have a NRA dinner on the 16th in Antioch. I hope to meet more supporters and learn more there.

@jrwhitt- yes I completely agree. Being that there is NO indoor fireing range in the contra costa county definately raises flags to me. Why? And what is the reason behind this.

I spoke to the chief of police of Pittsburg Arron Baker and he did not support the idea of a dealer and was totally against a future indoor range. I tried to explain that I do not believe that a dealer nor a shooting range should bring a negative atmosphere to the community because the fact we deal with firearms. Firearms should not have a "evil" associated with them and that I am against that mindset. He assured me that he did not believe that. He "carries a firearm with him everyday." I feel like he does not want to push any pro gun views maybe because of peers or the idea that more work may come of this desire of mine. It's frustrating to hear a chief sound anti-gun.

My ultimate goal is to get this business of the ground. I can't afford a new shop in a new location. Which is more where is pushed me to believe is my only option. I actually only want to start as a by appointment only. So I can learn an get client base.

CocoTiTs
06-17-2012, 5:08 AM
The NRA dinner last night was a success. I met quite a few people that also will stand behind us at the city council meeting. I will be contacting one of them who will hook me up with someone who can help guide me through my process. I will say between everyone here and some of the people I met last night we Definately have a chance. I will update more as more details come to light. Here are done pictures.

http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww342/shayne061488/de97db03.jpg
http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww342/shayne061488/8a0d8b79.jpg
http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww342/shayne061488/e257f0f0.jpg
http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww342/shayne061488/427efd2e.jpg
http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww342/shayne061488/5c0f5a43.jpg
http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww342/shayne061488/8db13f4d.jpg

Librarian
06-17-2012, 12:24 PM
The last time this idea got any progress at all was 1999, when Canyon Sports wanted to build a range when they relocated to Howe Road.

See http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/1999/09/10/MN14964.DTL

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/e/a/1999/09/12/METRO5286.dtl&ao=all

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/1999/09/17/MNR4CO2.DTL

Contra Costa Times has a few articles in their archive, behind a paywall; those seem about the same as the sfgate content.

wash
06-17-2012, 1:07 PM
I think part of the reason was because us gun owners put a lot of pressure on them during public meetings. They had to keep things on the level cause they knew a lot of people were watching this one.
Actually, that's 100% wrong.

Sunnyvale didn't care until a bunch of soccer moms raised a stink and then it became a study issue.

They actually had some common sense but the combination of soccer moms and two ~anti gun council members made them do the study issue.

As hard as they tried (and they did try hard), they could not find correlation between FFL dealers and crime.

They still recommended a ridiculous school and daycare zone and special conditional use permits with safety checks by the police department.

It was the 100+ civil rights activists that forced the council to not add unconstitutional zoning requirements for FFL businesses.

In the end, Sunnyvale was rational, not friendly toward us.

jdberger
06-18-2012, 10:23 AM
Brandon an josh thank you! Along with everyone else too. I really had no idea calguns was this helpful. I will Definately keep updates. Where should I post the updates is this the right section? And I have a NRA dinner on the 16th in Antioch. I hope to meet more supporters and learn more there.

@jrwhitt- yes I completely agree. Being that there is NO indoor fireing range in the contra costa county definately raises flags to me. Why? And what is the reason behind this.

I spoke to the chief of police of Pittsburg Arron Baker and he did not support the idea of a dealer and was totally against a future indoor range. I tried to explain that I do not believe that a dealer nor a shooting range should bring a negative atmosphere to the community because the fact we deal with firearms. Firearms should not have a "evil" associated with them and that I am against that mindset. He assured me that he did not believe that. He "carries a firearm with him everyday." I feel like he does not want to push any pro gun views maybe because of peers or the idea that more work may come of this desire of mine. It's frustrating to hear a chief sound anti-gun.

My ultimate goal is to get this business of the ground. I can't afford a new shop in a new location. Which is more where is pushed me to believe is my only option. I actually only want to start as a by appointment only. So I can learn an get client base.

Post updates here, please.

CocoTiTs
06-18-2012, 12:33 PM
The last time this idea got any progress at all was 1999, when Canyon Sports wanted to build a range when they relocated to Howe Road.

See http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/1999/09/10/MN14964.DTL

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/e/a/1999/09/12/METRO5286.dtl&ao=all

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/1999/09/17/MNR4CO2.DTL

Contra Costa Times has a few articles in their archive, behind a paywall; those seem about the same as the sfgate content.


Great research. Good to know. I'm going to try and warm up Pittsburg to the idea of a range by first gettin the dealership approved.

I emailed Daniel Wilhelm from the NRA that I met at the dinner like he asked today. Hopefully hear back soon.

CocoTiTs
06-19-2012, 3:50 PM
update:

ATF called me today and we made our inspection appointment at the address for july 5th. They are going to call the city planning and city police for their approval today. I have already gotten verbal approval from planning and verbal denial from city police. ATF says they will give me a chance to change their mind as long as it stays within the 30 day period of when they received my application.

Also i have been trying to get ahold of the city manager to find out how to get my issue heard by city council to change the desicion made by the city police. finally after 3 days of calling i have reached someone. they redirected me back to planning dept manager as per request of city manager Joe Sbranti. so i talked to Daina Hawket a manager within planning dept. she was helpful. per Daina since i have only had a verbal denial from police it is not sufficient enough to take to city council. i need to apply for both the business license and also the business permit which need to be turned in together. both the planning dept and police dept research these applications and either deny or approve. if and only if i receive a denial from these applications can i then appeal those desicions. it would then be heard by a hearing officer. then if a denial happens from the hearing officer i then can appeal once again and finally be heard by city council. being that i have a time stamp of july 5th this process will not be done by this atf ffl application cut off date. most likely worst case scenario i would not see city council until october. each of these processes takes 4-6 weeks generally.

So now i am going to get copies of both the business license and also the business permit fill them out and move forward from there. the reason this was not done already by me was i was told i cannot fill out these applications without first the approval of the atf and having the ffl number for these applications. of course this is the run around i have received.

wash
06-19-2012, 4:45 PM
A lesson should be learned from this example and Pinole.

A denial at any step in the process is an opportunity for any anti-gun person in the local government to block you.

To get around that, your first application must be so perfect that you can not be denied.

One mistake is enough to screw you over.

Volunteering information to the police sounds nice but if they are antis, they will just use it against you.

Anyone who wants to do something like this needs to have a solid strategy, make no mistakes and probably partner with a group like Brandon's Cal-FFL thing.

Any other way is too easy for an anti to block.

mud99
06-19-2012, 5:15 PM
I don't know much about the process, but you need to get a roadmap together and pair up with someone more experienced.

If you have to ask the people at the city how to do it, you are doing it wrong. A lawyer should be able to read the city code and figure out where you need to go and what steps you have to take to get an approval, and it doesn't matter what all the peons you have talked to think.

The more people you ask for more permission, the more chances you have to be denied.

wildhawker
06-19-2012, 5:27 PM
I don't know much about the process, but you need to get a roadmap together and pair up with someone more experienced.

If you have to ask the people at the city how to do it, you are doing it wrong. A lawyer should be able to read the city code and figure out where you need to go and what steps you have to take to get an approval, and it doesn't matter what all the peons you have talked to think.

The more people you ask for more permission, the more chances you have to be denied.

Whoda thunkit.

Coco, to restate, please keep me and Josh informed of progress and issues. Do consider engaging counsel as the process can be something of a [legal, political, and PR] minefield - especially in the Bay Area/CoCoCounty.

-Brandon

I haven't received any emails, and I'm betting Josh hasn't either.

:gene:

-Brandon

wjc
06-19-2012, 7:25 PM
A lesson should be learned from this example and Pinole.

A denial at any step in the process is an opportunity for any anti-gun person in the local government to block you.

To get around that, your first application must be so perfect that you can not be denied.

One mistake is enough to screw you over.

Volunteering information to the police sounds nice but if they are antis, they will just use it against you.

Anyone who wants to do something like this needs to have a solid strategy, make no mistakes and probably partner with a group like Brandon's Cal-FFL thing.

Any other way is too easy for an anti to block.

I would also bet dollars to donuts that LCAV, and possibly the Brady Bunch, were contacted the minute you got those verbal approvals.

CocoTiTs
06-19-2012, 9:53 PM
Emails sent to Brandon and Josh. :)

jdberger
06-20-2012, 8:46 AM
Nothing received.

Joshua[dot]berger@calgunsfdn[dot]org

CocoTiTs
06-20-2012, 10:39 AM
Resent. I typed ffn not fdn.

CocoTiTs
06-21-2012, 5:01 AM
I received a reply from the man I met from the NRA. He passed along my info and I should be hearing back soon.

Librarian
06-22-2012, 3:10 PM
Somewhat more general statistics, and wider in scope, are available by city. For example, http://www.city-data.com/city/Pittsburg-California.html for Pittsburg.

A lot is a re-statement from the Census data.

There is a growing number of crime-incident mapping programs - here's one for Oakland (http://oakland.crimespotting.org/#dtstart=2012-06-14T23:59:59-07:00&types=AA,Mu,Ro,SA,DP,Na,Al,Pr,Th,VT,Va,Bu,Ar&dtend=2012-06-21T23:59:59-07:00&lat=37.806&zoom=14&hours=0-23&lon=-122.270), for example - and many of the maps are available through the city web sites.

CocoTiTs
06-23-2012, 11:21 AM
That's useful thank you. Pittsburg is actually low compared to its neighbor of Antioch.

CocoTiTs
06-24-2012, 4:50 AM
I was contacted by a law firm that i may use to help me through this situation so I can get my ffl. Hear back Soon