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View Full Version : At last! A Common Sense, Reasonable Gun Law I Can Agree With


tankarian
06-08-2012, 4:08 PM
Proposed (you probably guessed) by two GOP lawmakers:

Initiative seeks higher sentences for 'gun criminals' (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120607/METRO02/206070483/1361/Initiative-seeks-higher-sentences-for--gun-criminals-)
Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard announced the initiative at a press conference Thursday at the Sheriff's Office.
"We have enough gun laws," said Bouchard. "We need gun criminals paying a higher price for their illegal behavior."
Up to 25 years in prison in addition to the bad guys get for their crime - if they use a firearm.

Now if we could only convince Democrat politicians to push for the same kind gun laws.
Still, not holding my breath - since the average liberal gun owner doesn't consider gun rights to be as important as gay marriage or taxing the rich into bankruptcy.

MP301
06-08-2012, 4:47 PM
Yeah, in a perfect world where only criminals get the shaft, this would be acceptable.

However, i can assure you that this would be abused. In a state where you can catch a felony for, say having "evil" features on a rifle (a flash suppressor instead of a muzzle brake for example)....or pick a stupid gun law....I think something like this, not properly defined to murder, robbery or pick real violent type felony, then it will screw many folks that dont have it coming.

Slippery slope slippery slope slippery slope...you get the idea. After what I recently read about prosecutors abusing thier qualified immunity to the point of there being no recourse for lying and manufacturing evidence, giving them one more tool that can be abused is retarded.

aklover_91
06-08-2012, 4:52 PM
I also have problems with this on ethical grounds.

If guns aren't inherently bad, like we all say, why is it worse to use a gun than a knife or a bat?

Coupled with the issue mentioned above, it's going to do nothing but go off the rails.

m03
06-08-2012, 5:09 PM
If guns aren't inherently bad, like we all say, why is it worse to use a gun than a knife or a bat?

+1

A violent crime is a violent crime. Splitting them into "violent gun crimes" and "violent other-than-gun crimes" solves exactly zero problems.

cdtx2001
06-08-2012, 5:21 PM
Yeah, in a perfect world where only criminals get the shaft, this would be acceptable.

However, i can assure you that this would be abused. In a state where you can catch a felony for, say having "evil" features on a rifle (a flash suppressor instead of a muzzle brake for example)....or pick a stupid gun law....I think something like this, not properly defined to murder, robbery or pick real violent type felony, then it will screw many folks that dont have it coming.

Slippery slope slippery slope slippery slope...you get the idea. After what I recently read about prosecutors abusing thier qualified immunity to the point of there being no recourse for lying and manufacturing evidence, giving them one more tool that can be abused is retarded.

This^^^^

Many people, especially politicians, don't think of the unintended consequences of most legislations.

Then again, maybe they want to fill up the prison system with the average Joe that has the unfortunate circumstance as described above.

TKM
06-08-2012, 5:37 PM
Like hate crime legislation, it's a bad idea.

Crime is crime. No need to gild the lily.

I can't agree with this one.

bwiese
06-08-2012, 5:48 PM
A pretty thought, but where the rubber meats the road, rights get violated.

Remember the MiniMart owner in Central Valley that got robbed?

He was (legally) able to pop the robber (as I recall, he lived) with the 1911 under the counter.

But, like most mini-marts, there's all sorts of novelty items on the counter - which included novelty throwing star keychain fobs.

Naturally, in the aftermath, they bust the guy for the shurikens.

Then they bust him for 'being armed during a commission of a crime'.

[I'm unsure the end results of this case - if charges dropped, plead down or whatnot. But that is the complexity added to by making things 'gun crimes' instead of just attacking the root issue -assault, robbery, etc.]

Quser.619
06-08-2012, 6:11 PM
By giving guns that much power - an additional 25 years - aren't we validating the anti's views regarding firearms as being evil?

wjc
06-08-2012, 6:15 PM
Yeah, in a perfect world where only criminals get the shaft, this would be acceptable.

However, i can assure you that this would be abused. In a state where you can catch a felony for, say having "evil" features on a rifle (a flash suppressor instead of a muzzle brake for example)....or pick a stupid gun law....I think something like this, not properly defined to murder, robbery or pick real violent type felony, then it will screw many folks that dont have it coming.

Slippery slope slippery slope slippery slope...you get the idea. After what I recently read about prosecutors abusing thier qualified immunity to the point of there being no recourse for lying and manufacturing evidence, giving them one more tool that can be abused is retarded.

+1 on this

CBruce
06-08-2012, 6:37 PM
Proposed (you probably guessed) by two GOP lawmakers:

Initiative seeks higher sentences for 'gun criminals' (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120607/METRO02/206070483/1361/Initiative-seeks-higher-sentences-for--gun-criminals-)

Up to 25 years in prison in addition to the bad guys get for their crime - if they use a firearm.

Now if we could only convince Democrat politicians to push for the same kind gun laws.
Still, not holding my breath - since the average liberal gun owner doesn't consider gun rights to be as important as gay marriage or taxing the rich into bankruptcy.

Uh, what crimes? If I jaywalk while carrying my gun to a range so I get 25 years? I'm all for harsher penalties on a crime where a firearm is a direct multiplying factor (assault, robbery, etc), but not just any crime.

You might also want to rethink 'average liberal gun owner' not caring about gun rights. Arguably, the average gun owner cares a lot about 2A rights regardless of their political philosophy.

Carnivore
06-08-2012, 7:26 PM
Yep sounds like one of those "perfect" laws but the slops on this one are more slippery then MT. Everest in winter.

Turo
06-08-2012, 8:21 PM
No thank you.

12voltguy
06-08-2012, 8:27 PM
A Common Sense, Reasonable Gun Law

BS there are no such things.
I see they fooled you,but see all the replies & think again.

tonelar
06-08-2012, 8:32 PM
This reminds me of project exile.

Cato
06-08-2012, 8:38 PM
"Up to 25 years in prison in addition to the bad guys get for their crime - if they use a firearm."

The catch is "Up to 25 years...". To a judge that means 18 months. We have plenty of laws already; they just aren't enforced.

pHredd9mm
06-08-2012, 8:42 PM
If someone unlawfully murders another person, it matters not a bit what the weapon or method was used. The victim is as dead with a baseball bat, knife, gun, or even a truck. Dead is dead. Crippled is crippled. For robbery, theft, etc., the result is the same wielding a weapon as being surrounded by 10 unarmed gang members. The crime is the crime. These "enhancements" started off as feel-good laws that do not discourage crime, they only make a mess of the justice system.

I MIGHT support specific crimes having an enhancement (rape, abduction) for use of a weapon, but not a general enhancement to all "felonies" for firearms use.

Meplat
06-08-2012, 9:11 PM
So, if you have a CCW and anything; ANYTHING! goes sideways in your life, say good by to the wife and kids. You don't get to watch them grow up. Your wife probably finds someone else. They start calling him daddy, because they are embarrassed because their read dad is in prison. You get out, if you live long enough, a bitter used up old man. Just because you had a gun that did not even inter into the original offense?

If this is not total discrimination against gun owners I don't know what is. An if it does not have a chilling effect on the exercise of an enumerated right I don’t know what could. The present ten year enhancement is obscene. Support of firearms enhancements is one of the issues that make my relationship with NRA bitter sweet.

radioman
06-08-2012, 9:20 PM
for many years now, we have had a law; it is use a gun go to prison. it started out as a 5 year goody to a10 year goody, the best gun law in this state.

The Original Godfather
06-08-2012, 9:22 PM
I also have problems with this on ethical grounds.

If guns aren't inherently bad, like we all say, why is it worse to use a gun than a knife or a bat?

Coupled with the issue mentioned above, it's going to do nothing but go off the rails.

By giving guns that much power - an additional 25 years - aren't we validating the anti's views regarding firearms as being evil?



My first thought exactly.

Bill Carson
06-08-2012, 9:25 PM
I also have problems with this on ethical grounds.

If guns aren't inherently bad, like we all say, why is it worse to use a gun than a knife or a bat?

Coupled with the issue mentioned above, it's going to do nothing but go off the rails.

This

radioman
06-08-2012, 9:36 PM
This

Yes Bill, there are pit falls. but we have this law on the books. I can't use the words here to tell you what I think of someone that would pull a gun on an unarmed person, I'm getting to old to fight, but, I'd rather take on the guy with the bat or knife.

aklover_91
06-08-2012, 9:44 PM
Yes Bill, there are pit falls. but we have this law on the books. I can't use the words here to tell you what I think of someone that would pull a gun on an unarmed person, I'm getting to old to fight, but, I'd rather take on the guy with the bat or knife.

Then you're seriously underestimating knives and bats.

radioman
06-08-2012, 10:19 PM
Then you're seriously underestimating knives and bats.

No not underestimating, but the odds are better. at this point in my life I would be toast, I can't get off the ground anymore, but 15 or 20 years ago I could catch a fist in midair, and use against you. fighting over a gun does not end well, I would not want to have to take a gun.

NorCalDustin
06-08-2012, 11:09 PM
It will be abused...

el chivo
06-08-2012, 11:34 PM
the jaywalking comment was my first thought; and what if the crime is poaching, or some arcane fish and game law? Lots of people break these laws without even realizing it. Go hunting on Sunday morning, hit a deer with one too few antler tines and you're off to prison for the rest of your adult life.

Turo
06-10-2012, 5:51 PM
No not underestimating, but the odds are better. at this point in my life I would be toast, I can't get off the ground anymore, but 15 or 20 years ago I could catch a fist in midair, and use against you. fighting over a gun does not end well, I would not want to have to take a gun.

But the odds aren't better. For someone to use a gun against you effectively, they need to have at least some training, the ability to aim, practice with followup shots, and have some training in weapon retention. With a knife, all they have to do is get close. It's near impossible to take a knife away from someone without getting cut, and there's no aiming necessary.

And remember, the odds of surviving a gunshot wound is something like 80% nowdays.

dantodd
06-10-2012, 6:13 PM
Gottalove that 25 year term for DUI.

Librarian
06-10-2012, 6:23 PM
Existing laws have varying sentence enhancements when convicted for a felony that involves a firearm. For example, PC 12021.5 TITLE 2. SENTENCE ENHANCEMENTS [12001. - 12022.95.]


12021.5.
(a) Every person who carries a loaded or unloaded firearm on his or her person, or in a vehicle, during the commission or attempted commission of any street gang crimes described in subdivision (a) or (b) of Section 186.22, shall, upon conviction of the felony or attempted felony, be punished by an additional term of imprisonment in the state prison for one, two, or three years. The court shall select the sentence enhancement which, in the court’s discretion, best serves the interests of justice and shall state the reasons for its choice on the record at the time of sentence, in accordance with the provisions of subdivision (d) of Section 1170.1.

(b) Every person who carries a loaded or unloaded firearm together with a detachable shotgun magazine, a detachable pistol magazine, a detachable magazine, or a belt-feeding device on his or her person, or in a vehicle, during the commission or attempted commission of any street gang crimes described in subdivision (a) or (b) of Section 186.22, shall, upon conviction of the felony or attempted felony, be punished by an additional term of imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or four years. The court shall select the sentence enhancement which, in the court’s discretion, best serves the interests of justice and shall state the reasons for its choice on the record at the time of sentence, in accordance with the provisions of subdivision (d) of Section 1170.1.

(c) As used in this section, the following definitions shall apply:

(1) “Detachable magazine” means a device that is designed or redesigned to do all of the following:

(A) To be attached to a rifle that is designed or redesigned to fire ammunition.

(B) To be attached to, and detached from, a rifle that is designed or redesigned to fire ammunition.

(C) To feed ammunition continuously and directly into the loading mechanism of a rifle that is designed or redesigned to fire ammunition.

(2) “Detachable pistol magazine” means a device that is designed or redesigned to do all of the following:

(A) To be attached to a semiautomatic firearm that is not a rifle or shotgun that is designed or redesigned to fire ammunition.

(B) To be attached to, and detached from, a firearm that is not a rifle or shotgun that is designed or redesigned to fire ammunition.

(C) To feed ammunition continuously and directly into the loading mechanism of a firearm that is not a rifle or a shotgun that is designed or redesigned to fire ammunition.

(3) “Detachable shotgun magazine” means a device that is designed or redesigned to do all of the following:

(A) To be attached to a firearm that is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell through a smooth or rifled bore.

(B) To be attached to, and detached from, a firearm that is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell through a smooth bore.

(C) To feed fixed shotgun shells continuously and directly into the loading mechanism of a firearm that is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.

(4) “Belt-feeding device” means a device that is designed or redesigned to continuously feed ammunition into the loading mechanism of a machinegun or a semiautomatic firearm.

(5) “Rifle” shall have the same meaning as specified in paragraph (20) of subdivision (c) of Section 12020 until January 1, 2012, and, on or after that date, Section 17090.

(6) “Shotgun” shall have the same meaning as specified in paragraph (21) of subdivision (c) of Section 12020 until January 1, 2012, and, on or after that date, Section 17190.

(d) This section shall remain in effect only until January 1, 2014, and as of that date is repealed, unless a later enacted statute, that is enacted before January 1, 2014, deletes or extends that date. (There's a replacement, similar language, that is effective Jan 2014.) and the primary sentence enhancement section, PC 12022.53 TITLE 2. SENTENCE ENHANCEMENTS [12001. - 12022.95.]
( Title 2 repealed and added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 5. )


12022.53.
(a) This section applies to the following felonies:

(1) Section 187 (murder).

(2) Section 203 or 205 (mayhem).

(3) Section 207, 209, or 209.5 (kidnapping).

(4) Section 211 (robbery).

(5) Section 215 (carjacking).

(6) Section 220 (assault with intent to commit a specified felony).

(7) Subdivision (d) of Section 245 (assault with a firearm on a peace officer or firefighter).

(8) Section 261 or 262 (rape).

(9) Section 264.1 (rape or sexual penetration in concert).

(10) Section 286 (sodomy).

(11) Section 288 or 288.5 (lewd act on a child).

(12) Section 288a (oral copulation).

(13) Section 289 (sexual penetration).

(14) Section 4500 (assault by a life prisoner).

(15) Section 4501 (assault by a prisoner).

(16) Section 4503 (holding a hostage by a prisoner).

(17) Any felony punishable by death or imprisonment in the state prison for life.

(18) Any attempt to commit a crime listed in this subdivision other than an assault.

(b) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any person who, in the commission of a felony specified in subdivision (a), personally uses a firearm, shall be punished by an additional and consecutive term of imprisonment in the state prison for 10 years. The firearm need not be operable or loaded for this enhancement to apply.

(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any person who, in the commission of a felony specified in subdivision (a), personally and intentionally discharges a firearm, shall be punished by an additional and consecutive term of imprisonment in the state prison for 20 years.

(d) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any person who, in the commission of a felony specified in subdivision (a), Section 246, or subdivision (c) or (d) of Section 26100, personally and intentionally discharges a firearm and proximately causes great bodily injury, as defined in Section 12022.7, or death, to any person other than an accomplice, shall be punished by an additional and consecutive term of imprisonment in the state prison for 25 years to life.

(e) (1) The enhancements provided in this section shall apply to any person who is a principal in the commission of an offense if both of the following are pled and proved:

(A) The person violated subdivision (b) of Section 186.22.

(B) Any principal in the offense committed any act specified in subdivision (b), (c), or (d).

(2) An enhancement for participation in a criminal street gang pursuant to Chapter 11 (commencing with Section 186.20) of Title 7 of Part 1 shall not be imposed on a person in addition to an enhancement imposed pursuant to this subdivision, unless the person personally used or personally discharged a firearm in the commission of the offense.

(f) Only one additional term of imprisonment under this section shall be imposed per person for each crime. If more than one enhancement per person is found true under this section, the court shall impose upon that person the enhancement that provides the longest term of imprisonment. An enhancement involving a firearm specified in Section 12021.5, 12022, 12022.3, 12022.4, 12022.5, or 12022.55 shall not be imposed on a person in addition to an enhancement imposed pursuant to this section. An enhancement for great bodily injury as defined in Section 12022.7, 12022.8, or 12022.9 shall not be imposed on a person in addition to an enhancement imposed pursuant to subdivision (d).

(g) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, probation shall not be granted to, nor shall the execution or imposition of sentence be suspended for, any person found to come within the provisions of this section.

(h) Notwithstanding Section 1385 or any other provision of law, the court shall not strike an allegation under this section or a finding bringing a person within the provisions of this section.

(i) The total amount of credits awarded pursuant to Article 2.5 (commencing with Section 2930) of Chapter 7 of Title 1 of Part 3 or pursuant to Section 4019 or any other provision of law shall not exceed 15 percent of the total term of imprisonment imposed on a defendant upon whom a sentence is imposed pursuant to this section.

(j) For the penalties in this section to apply, the existence of any fact required under subdivision (b), (c), or (d) shall be alleged in the accusatory pleading and either admitted by the defendant in open court or found to be true by the trier of fact. When an enhancement specified in this section has been admitted or found to be true, the court shall impose punishment for that enhancement pursuant to this section rather than imposing punishment authorized under any other provision of law, unless another enhancement provides for a greater penalty or a longer term of imprisonment.

(k) When a person is found to have used or discharged a firearm in the commission of an offense that includes an allegation pursuant to this section and the firearm is owned by that person, a coparticipant, or a coconspirator, the court shall order that the firearm be deemed a nuisance and disposed of in the manner provided in Sections 18000 and 18005.

(l) The enhancements specified in this section shall not apply to the lawful use or discharge of a firearm by a public officer, as provided in Section 196, or by any person in lawful self-defense, lawful defense of another, or lawful defense of property, as provided in Sections 197, 198, and 198.5.

And, I might be wrong, but the phrasing suggests that the enhancements 'stack' - shoot and injure someone and get 25 years from (d), another 20 from (c), and another 10 from (b).

nicki
06-10-2012, 6:25 PM
I don't have an issue with nailing criminals, but like Bill said, we have to watch for abuses.

While I agree we need to nail violent criminal offenders, we need to also look at why we have violence in the first place and work to fix the problems.

Till we fix the sources that create violent criminals, all we are doing is warehousing violent offenders.

It is a sad commentary that we need such laws in the first place.

Nicki

gunsandrockets
06-10-2012, 7:53 PM
Existing laws have varying sentence enhancements when convicted for a felony that involves a firearm. For example, PC 12021.5 (There's a replacement, similar language, that is effective Jan 2014.) and the primary sentence enhancement section, PC 12022.53

And, I might be wrong, but the phrasing suggests that the enhancements 'stack' - shoot and injure someone and get 25 years from (d), another 20 from (c), and another 10 from (b).

I remember when the 10-20-life gun law came about, but have heard almost nothing about is since then. Have DAs around the state even bothered to apply this gun use penalty enhancement?