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View Full Version : Slidefire Magazine at Local CA Gas Station


tacticalcity
06-08-2012, 12:59 PM
The Slidefire Stocks, while very cool, are illegal here in California (see http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=527201) but somebody aparently forgot to tell Slidefire. Saw their promotional magazine on the shelf at my local CA gas station today. Spending money promoting your product in a state where it is illegal is not the best use of funds, and can get some poor ignorant gun owner into a lot of trouble. Found it ironic. Just figured I would share.

gmcal
06-08-2012, 1:09 PM
Perhaps it would be a good idea to pm that information to someone on the CGF board and they could speak to people at slidefire about the legal status of their product in CA. Perhaps they could also contact the owner/corporate office of the gas station.

M_lizar
06-08-2012, 1:14 PM
I saw some guy on blm land using a slide fire and was telling everyone it was legal. I tried explaining it wasn't, but he just ignored me.

Dreaded Claymore
06-08-2012, 1:17 PM
Unfortunately some poor soul may end up being a (losing) test case pretty soon.

tacticalcity
06-08-2012, 1:18 PM
I saw some guy on blm land using a slide fire and was telling everyone it was legal. I tried explaining it wasn't, but he just ignored me.

I don't confront people when I think their stuff is illegal. Those discussions never go well...and have the potential to go EXTREMELY wrong. You never know with strangers.

tacticalcity
06-08-2012, 1:19 PM
In their defense, it is not like they are selling the actual stocks and the magazines have interesting non slide-fire articles...but it does give the impression they want California customers for their stocks.

Trust me, I wish they were legal here. I'd buy one, or two, or three if they were.

M_lizar
06-08-2012, 1:21 PM
I don't confront people when I think their stuff is illegal. Those discussions never go well...and have the potential to go EXTREMELY wrong. You never know with strangers.

Point well taken. Thinking back its just better to mind my own business.

tacticalcity
06-08-2012, 1:23 PM
Perhaps it would be a good idea to pm that information to someone on the CGF board and they could speak to people at slidefire about the legal status of their product in CA. Perhaps they could also contact the owner/corporate office of the gas station.

Feel free...Shell station on 3591 Bradshaw Rd, Sacramento, CA

I told the clerk, but the owner wasn't there.

tacticalcity
06-08-2012, 1:25 PM
Point well taken. Thinking back its just better to mind my own business.

If they are nice people and you've been getting along and they are cool to you, then it's less risky and you're hopefully doing them a favor. Complete strangers, better safe than sorry.

skyscraper
06-08-2012, 1:25 PM
Wow even possession of one is illegal. Good to know. Thanks

skyscraper
06-08-2012, 1:26 PM
I don't confront people when I think their stuff is illegal. Those discussions never go well...and have the potential to go EXTREMELY wrong. You never know with strangers.

Im sure they know it's illegal here, but why they would advertise here is strange.

tacticalcity
06-08-2012, 1:27 PM
Wow even possession of one is illegal. Good to know. Thanks

According to that link, yep.

"(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any ......, any multiburst trigger activator,"

Sucks to be sure!

Jeepers
06-08-2012, 1:28 PM
they are on gun store shelf's in ca also

i emailed the company way back and there views it is legal and has been summited a sample to CADOJ but never got a reply(surprise surprise)

only time will tell ...

tacticalcity
06-08-2012, 1:29 PM
Im sure they know it's illegal here, but why they would advertise here is strange.

That was in answer to the side conversation about convfronting the BLM land guy using one, not to the we should let Slidefire know post.

tacticalcity
06-08-2012, 1:30 PM
they are on gun store shelf's in ca also

i emailed the company way back and there views it is legal and has been summited a sample to CADOJ but never got a reply(surprise surprise)

only time will tell ...

Well it would be nice if they end up being right (by some miracle) but I certainly would not want to be the test case.

They are probably trying to argue that the part is not a "multiburst trigger activator" because it doesn't actually touch the trigger. Problem with that is the legislature already thought of that (intentionally or not) see the bolded text below. They ban it by want it does, not how it does it.

12020 PC.
(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any ......, any multiburst trigger activator,

(23) As used in this section, a "multiburst trigger activator" means one of the following devices:
(A) A device designed or redesigned to be attached to a semiautomatic firearm which allows the firearm to discharge two or more shots in a burst by activating the device.

(B) A manual or power-driven trigger activating device constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.

gil671
06-08-2012, 1:57 PM
Someone was actually selling one on Craigslist here in San Diego awhile back.
Really surprised me.

boamedt
06-08-2012, 2:03 PM
Well it would be nice if they end up being right (by some miracle) but I certainly would not want to be the test case.

They are probably trying to argue that the part is not a "multiburst trigger activator" because it doesn't actually touch the trigger. Problem with that is the legislature already thought of that (intentionally or not) see the bolded text below. They ban it by want it does, not how it does it.

12020 PC.
(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any ......, any multiburst trigger activator,

(23) As used in this section, a "multiburst trigger activator" means one of the following devices:
(A) A device designed or redesigned to be attached to a semiautomatic firearm which allows the firearm to discharge two or more shots in a burst by activating the device.

(B) A manual or power-driven trigger activating device constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.
Yet they sell them in ca gun stores
And CA hasnt done nothing about it.i dont see how they can prosecute u for a product u bought in CA from a CA gun store. that sold it to u....seems it would b the person who sold it to u who should b prosecuted

skyscraper
06-08-2012, 2:04 PM
That was in answer to the side conversation about convfronting the BLM land guy using one, not to the we should let Slidefire know post.

Ok I see.

bobomb
06-08-2012, 2:22 PM
one could argue it is not the device that allows the discharge but the persons finger and what is the definition of a burst each shot is actuated by your finger depressing the trigger

boamedt
06-08-2012, 2:34 PM
a burst is more than one shot per trigger pull........which the slide fire doesnt do, its still one shot per trigger pull

Fractured
06-08-2012, 2:36 PM
one could argue it is not the device that allows the discharge but the persons finger and what is the definition of a burst each shot is actuated by your finger depressing the trigger

Shhhhhhh they will make fingers illegal!!!

Dirtbiker
06-08-2012, 2:40 PM
Just playing devils advocate here, what about the huys that hold the MPA 380s to their bellys and bumpfire them, is their belly a multiburst trigger device?

Don't get me wrong no way I want to be a test case but it's not that different.

winnre
06-08-2012, 2:43 PM
How about we just install the triggers used on paintball guns so we can have two fingers back and forth on the same trigger?


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KYSEaDCqL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

shark92651
06-08-2012, 2:52 PM
Penal Code 12001.5, 12020(a)(1)
It is unlawful for any person to own, possess, lend, manufacture, import, sell, or offer to sell any short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle, any firearm that is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any cane or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any ammunition that contains or consists of a flechette dart, any bullet that contains or carries an explosive agent, any zip gun, any unconventional pistol, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any ballistic knife, any shuriken, any writing pen knife, and any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica hand grenade. It is unlawful for any person to carry a concealed dirk or dagger.

Penal Code 12020(c)(23)
A multiburst trigger activator means a device designed or redesigned to be attached to a semiautomatic firearm which allows the firearm to discharge two or more shots in a burst by activating the device, or a manual or power-driven trigger activating device constructed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.

Your finger or belly does not meet the definition above. The Slidefire stock most certainly does. Yes there are people illegally selling these at gun shows in CA. If caught with it you most certainly could be prosecuted - doesn't matter that you bought it from someone else, it is in YOUR possession. Both the buyer and the seller could be prosecuted for this.

Jeepers
06-08-2012, 3:00 PM
here is a copy of the email SF sent me about a year ago . i have to agree soneone sooner or later will end up in court over then seeing that that are coming out with bumpfire stocks for everything now it seems like ..

Dear Mr. None,

Thank you for your interest in Slide Fire Solutions.

The SSAR-15, by definition, is not an adjustable stock, nor does it qualify as a trigger manipulation device. It has been approved by the BATFE and we include that approval letter with your purchase. Slide Fire Solutions has not been notified by any state (including California) that our product conflicts with any laws. We did send them a stock months ago requesting approval but have not, and do not expect a response. It would cost any state an exceptional amount of money to test and respond to every product that comes onto the market, and that is something that more than just California is short on right now.

The SSAR-15 is not classified as a "trigger manipulation device" as it does not allow for more than one round to be fired per trigger pull. For EVERY round fired the trigger must be manually operated and the person firing the rifle can choose to stop pulling the trigger at any time. The SSAR also does nothing to increase the rate of fire inherent in the firearm. The rate of fire of any semi-automatic firearm is only limited by the speed in which one can pull the trigger.
Here's a link from the NRA that can empower prospective customers to know the laws of their state: http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/. It is ultimately the responsibility of consumers to know the current and changing/updated laws of their state.The best place for legal advice is not always on an internet blog, and if you are ever in doubt, please contact your State Department of Justice!
Feel free to contact me again with any more concerns.

Thank you,
Chris
SFS Customer Service

"It's not just a stock ... it's the Slide Fire Solution!!!"

boamedt
06-08-2012, 3:03 PM
one could argue it is not the device that allows the discharge but the persons finger and what is the definition of a burst each shot is actuated by your finger depressing the trigger

Yes because bumpfiring without the device has the same effect as bumpfiring with device, so rate of fire does not increase more with the device, its the same, nor does the device create "burstfire" which is more than one shot per trigger pull......so yes it is ur finger that is doing it.....not the "device"

shark92651
06-08-2012, 3:30 PM
Yes because bumpfiring without the device has the same effect as bumpfiring with device, so rate of fire does not increase more with the device, its the same, nor does the device create "burstfire" which is more than one shot per trigger pull......so yes it is ur finger that is doing it.....not the "device"

Can you put your cheek on the stock of your AR and bump fire it while aiming down the sights? I certainly wouldn't want to be defending myself in court with the argument that the device doesn't activate the trigger, but rather my finger does. It certainly appears to increase the rate of fire, at least to a prosecutor it does. Where is the definition of "burstfire" that you are referring to? I would love for this item to be legal in CA, looks like a lot of fun, albeit at the cost of a lot of ammo, but it's too risky at this point for me to consider it.

Don the savage
06-08-2012, 3:32 PM
Ive also seen these for sale in a certain sgv gun shop, with a video running showing the slide fire in action. Of course the same shop was selling a beretta bm59 as a "garand tanker" so i really dont think they care.

MXRider
06-08-2012, 3:39 PM
Can you put your cheek on the stock of your AR and bump fire it while aiming down the sights? I certainly wouldn't want to be defending myself in court with the argument that the device doesn't activate the trigger, but rather my finger does. It certainly appears to increase the rate of fire, at least to a prosecutor it does. Where is the definition of "burstfire" that you are referring to? I would love for this item to be legal in CA, looks like a lot of fun, albeit at the cost of a lot of ammo, but it's too risky at this point for me to consider it.

Yes you can. See video:

rEAxXMOVPh4

I personally don't see how the slidfire is a "multiburst trigger activator" in any way. Has nothing to do with the trigger at all.

shark92651
06-08-2012, 3:54 PM
Yes you can. See video:


Try it off-hand while walking around ;) The Slidefire makes it trivial to bumpfire.

boamedt
06-08-2012, 3:54 PM
Multiburst can not be described as one shot fired per tigger pull....thats the definition of semi-automatic fire, and thats what the slide fire does....u can look up what multi burst means, Im pretty sure more than one...if it didnt then all semi-auto rifle are breaking the multi burst law

boamedt
06-08-2012, 3:58 PM
Why would u walk around bumpfiring if ur engaging targets.....u would waant to be stationary anyways....

Travis590A1
06-08-2012, 4:05 PM
Well I see handgunner advertise guns that aren't cali legal all the time in their magazines should someone tell them too? It seems nobody is even sure to the legality of the stock anyways. Someone needs to contact the powers that be in kalifornistan and hear it from the horses mouth and also let me know asap so I can order one if they are CA approved ;)

Jeepers
06-08-2012, 4:07 PM
Try it off-hand while walking around ;) The Slidefire makes it trivial to bumpfire.
found it no modified stock being bumpfired from the shoulder .....
dPtC5Jwmbcg

shark92651
06-08-2012, 4:10 PM
Why would u walk around bumpfiring if ur engaging targets.....u would waant to be stationary anyways....

I usually don't shoot my carbines from a bipod off a table. I think you get my point that the technique in that video is hardly the way most people bumpfire. The slidefire lets even a novice shooter bumpfire at ease, from any firing position. Like I said before, I would love for it to be legal but so far the word from people whose legal opinions I trust say to stay away.

daybreak
06-08-2012, 4:38 PM
How about we just install the triggers used on paintball guns so we can have two fingers back and forth on the same trigger?


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KYSEaDCqL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

You do realize those are electronic switches / solenoid activated right?

tonelar
06-08-2012, 4:50 PM
A dealer I know phoned DOJ to ask when they'll come out with a statement about the slidefire. He was told that so far they can't refute that the stock is a non-mechanism.

Mebbe someone here can phone them and help them declare it illegal?

Merc1138
06-08-2012, 5:58 PM
You do realize those are electronic switches / solenoid activated right?
It's not that you couldn't make a gun with an electronic switch and solenoids, but you have to consider the problem of bounce(bouncing the trigger would be the same as bump firing, but the switch itself bouncing internally with only one trigger pull... GL with that in court).

shark92651
06-08-2012, 6:19 PM
A dealer I know phoned DOJ to ask when they'll come out with a statement about the slidefire. He was told that so far they can't refute that the stock is a non-mechanism.

Mebbe someone here can phone them and help them declare it illegal?

Phone calls to the DOJ or any verbal opinion that may result are useless. A letter sent certified mail with return receipt is better as you will get a written reply. My guess is that the written reply would still be vague but it would be interesting to see what they have to say about it. Somebody send a letter and then post the reply :D

strongpoint
06-08-2012, 6:36 PM
Yes because bumpfiring without the device has the same effect as bumpfiring with device, so rate of fire does not increase more with the device, its the same, nor does the device create "burstfire" which is more than one shot per trigger pull......so yes it is ur finger that is doing it.....not the "device"

I personally don't see how the slidfire is a "multiburst trigger activator" in any way. Has nothing to do with the trigger at all.

Multiburst can not be described as one shot fired per tigger pull....thats the definition of semi-automatic fire, and thats what the slide fire does....u can look up what multi burst means, Im pretty sure more than one...if it didnt then all semi-auto rifle are breaking the multi burst law

you guys are doing it wrong; this isn't how legal terminology works. start from the other end -- the definition, not the name.

the only question this law asks is, does the device in question fit the definition given? in other words (roughly speaking), is it a mechanical device that increases rate of fire? if so, then it's illegal.

the name that the law THEN gives this illegal device is "multiburst trigger activator" -- but that's just a name, nothing more. it has NO relevance to the definition of what devices are illegal.

trying to argue that a "multiburst trigger activator" is not what a slidefire stock IS -- that entire argument is a red herring. it seems to make sense, but laws don't work that way.

ETA: i point out (for the benefit of who haven't encountered the issue before) that a thread arises about once a fortnight or so regarding the legality of slidefire stocks. every time the question comes up, several posters make the exact same argument above -- mistaking the name for the definition -- and then the CGN legal beagles come along and shoot the argument full of holes using exactly the logic i'm conveying here. that's why there's a sticky on the subject.

Fate
06-08-2012, 7:40 PM
found it no modified stock being bumpfired from the shoulder .....
dPtC5Jwmbcg

That's just an out of spec fire control system. Not uncommon in PSLs from awhile back.

Jeepers
06-08-2012, 7:47 PM
That's just an out of spec fire control system. Not uncommon in PSLs from awhile back.

skEc628-eGs&
5J9roTD6eTw&
and theres many more from 1022's to AR...

arsilva32
06-08-2012, 10:39 PM
last i heard they had a doj letter that they gave out with the stock saying they were legal in cali, but from what the CGF said its not worth being a test case to own one here.the expense could go way over what the stock cost, in legal fees and such.

bwiese
06-08-2012, 11:14 PM
Yet they sell them in ca gun stores
And CA hasnt done nothing about it.i dont see how they can prosecute u for a product u bought in CA from a CA gun store. that sold it to u....seems it would b the person who sold it to u who should b prosecuted

Dude, get clear on it: possession is illegal, even if the item is unattached ot gun.

Now, you do bring up an argument that might be valid if a GUN were illegal. CA DOJ uses gunshops as their agents and thus if everything is aboveboard, a good gun lawyer can likely defend an illegal GUN sale from a gunshop since the gunshop is de fact DOJ's agent. But that's only for firearms transactions - I don't think this extends to parts/accessories.

bwiese
06-08-2012, 11:14 PM
last i heard they had a doj letter that they gave out with the stock saying they were legal in cali, but from what the CGF said its not worth being a test case to own one here.the expense could go way over what the stock cost, in legal fees and such.


Please show me a DOJ letter.

You CAN'T.

They're bandying about an ATF letter which has no relevance toward separate CA law.

guitar-nut
06-08-2012, 11:42 PM
Both the buyer and the seller could be prosecuted for this.

Someone should tell that to Atlantic Firearms...

roushstage2
06-09-2012, 12:02 AM
Instead of telling Atlantic Firearms or any other CA dealer their business, perhaps it'd be better to educate them that it might be best if they were an out-of-state sale item because both they and the buyer could get in trouble.

ClarenceBoddicker
06-09-2012, 12:50 AM
The whole CA "multi-burst trigger activator" law is very weak at best when talking about any non crank or powered trigger devices. Whoever drafted that law doesn't understand how semi-automatic guns function compared to machine guns under the law. They also don't understand the definition of a machine gun by the ATF under the NFA. Under ATF's interpretation of Federal law: "once a machine gun, always a machine gun. That means that a machine gun can never be a semi-auto, no matter what CA tries or wishes to do.

(23) As used in this section, a "multiburst trigger activator" means one of the following devices:

(A) A device designed or redesigned to be attached to a semiautomatic firearm which allows the firearm to discharge two or more shots in a burst by activating the device.

(B) A manual or power-driven trigger activating device constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.

The terms in bold meet the Federal & CA definition of a machine gun or are MG terms. A machine gun fires more than one round with each pull of the trigger. ATF has held that a conversion part such as the Lighting Link or the original Poor Man's Machine Gun, is a machine gun. The Poor Man's Machine Gun was designed by a TV repairman. It was an electric motor with a cam lobe on a shaft. The unit was clamped onto a gun so the cam lobe would engage the trigger. When the power to the motor was turned on, the gun would fire like it was a machine gun. It was kinda like the original late 1940's Vulcan/mini-gun project, which was just an old original manual powered Gatlin gun that had an electric motor attached. The internals of the gun were not changed.

Rate of fire (cyclic rate of fire or rounds per minute) or burst (multiple rounds fired per pull of the trigger) does not apply to semi-auto weapons, as the so called rate of fire depends upon the speed of the shooter trigger finger or such techniques as bump firing. Burst is not defined as far as I could find in the section.

1) Definition (A) describes a device that turns a semi-automatic weapon into a machine gun. Any so call trigger activator that is legal under Federal law can't turn a semi into a MG. Only a restricted conversion device like a Lightning Link can do that. Trying to include spring powered devices like a Hell-Fire which reduce the trigger pull weight & travel in that vague definition would not stand up to legal review. This part only covers the post 5/19/86 banned & Federally restricted conversion devices (MG's under Federal & CA law), which were banned in CA before this law. This section really only extra bans & calls a conversion device by a new scary name.

2) Definition (B) possibly bans manual powered versions of the Poor Man's Machine Gun such as the BMF Activator & the similar GAT. The post 5/19/86 banned & Federally restricted Poor Man's Machine Gun which is of course a machine under both CA & Federal law, is extra banned & renamed. Other than possibly banning crank type trigger devices or the already banned conversion devices, this section is vague and unenforceable. A skilled trigger finger or certain grip techniques could fall under the "manual powered" part. Not even a CA court would go for that. "Your honor the evil gun nut defendant was caught shooting his evil assault weapon at too high of a rate of burst fire". Has anyone seen some of the professional competition or entertainment shooter who can fire a semi-auto as fast as a machine gun with just their trigger finger? If they were to wrap the sling of a semi-auto around their arm, would they become a "multi-burst trigger activator" under CA law? They would be attached to the semi-auto & they can certainly increase the "rate of fire" of the weapon.

Nowhere in both A & B is there any exact mention or description of spring loaded trigger pull/travel reducers (like most trigger activators are), extended ratcheting cam external triggers such as the Tri-Burst Activator, or other such devices like a free floating stock design. Mechanical machine guns such as Gatling Guns are fully legal under Federal & even CA law. Too broad of a definition makes a law vague and unenforceable. If the CA Legislature wished to ban such items as the Hell-Fire, BMF Activator, Tri-Burst Activator, or others like a free floating stock, they are required to either name the item in question or define it unambiguously. Just making vague blanket statements such as "multi-burst trigger activator" & "rate of fire" is not enough to meet Constitutional standards. They have to describe how the activator works or exactly how many rounds fired per minute or per "burst" is unlawful.

How many people in CA have actually been convicted (not pleaded out) of this law? What is the case law on this? Has any attempt ever been made to fight it? What is the NRA's position on this easily defeated law?

bwiese
06-09-2012, 2:21 AM
Clarence Boddiker...

You are highly uninformed. It doesn't matter who wrote the law or what that person knows (or doesn't). What you think is easily beatable ain't, esp in a CA courtroom. Some AW matters are a lot easier to defend.

This has all been covered before, but I'll type once more. In addition, CA gun lawyer Jason Davis has told me it's an illegal MBTA too. If Jason says something is illegal, and I've separately said so too, then you should assume the ground is well-covered.

Your 'rate of fire' concept is what you think the 'cyclic rate' of a machine gun is.

It's not , it's just rounds fired over unit time - in court it'll come down to 'how rapidly can you fire the gun with vs without this device.' A crime lab will run some tests, and the SlideFire manufacturing videos will come into play to seal the deal. Add to the drama that this will be perceived as a machine-gun like behavior in a California court and your rear is toast. Lifetime felony prohibition.

Bottom line, the definition is broad enough to include anything that facilitates a higher avg rate of fire when attached/mounted/in operation contrasted as to the original device state without the offending device.

Let's say an avg person that, even with bump firing, and after averaging over multiple sessions (and perhaps even averaging over multiple users) achieves a firing rate of N rounds per minute on a stock gun.

Attaching the SlideFire device will readily [I do indeed believe their sales videos] achieve K*N + B rounds per minute on the modified gun, where K is a value maybe around 1.2 and B is a number in the 3 - 6 area.

I note bump firing is a very conditional, semi-stable kinda thing; you can easily go in & out of 'the zone'. The SlideFire makes that 'zone' far easier to achieve and 'stay within', and the average number of rounds out the barrel over unit time increases.

That's all the judge needs for a conviction, esp when the sales literature and demonstration videos already do 99% of the work convicting the offender.

The fact it's called a 'trigger activator' and yet the SlideFire stock in no way connects to the trigger is irrelevant: what controls is the definition(s) as opposed to the name. This device could be legally named as a purple hamster masturbator, and if you a device that facilitated firing rate increase like the SlideFire and you got popped, you'd be charged with possessing a purple hamster masturbator.

You really need to think before you write the crap you wrote.

No lawyer or group is gonna take such a case except on a paid defense basis.
Why would the NRA or CGF take a losing case, when the definition is clear enough that it's obvious [to those with analytic capacity] that it should be avoided? You are wrong that it is 'vague and unenforceable'.

I do know there have been Hellfire activator busts in the 90s, although I am unsure if they were primary or add-on charges.


Furthermore, why would one want to waste precious time/resources in an attempt to defend a joy-toy for kiddies - when there AW bans to be taken down, hicap mag exemptions to be exploited, carry permit & Roster issues to be fought???

ClarenceBoddicker
06-09-2012, 5:57 AM
All sorts of so called "unbeatable" laws have been defeated in a courtroom before. I'm sorry, but the only opinion that really matters is the Appellate Court judges &/or the Supreme Court judges. Until there is legal precedent set (which requires a conviction & appeal), it's a matter of opinion & interpretation. You should know that.

If your "rounds fired over time" theory is correct, then any mods made to semi-auto guns (pistols included) that can increase how fast a person can dump the mag/drum would be a so called multi-burst trigger activator. You could change the recoil spring, bump up the gas system volume, lighten the bolt carrier, lighten the bolt, lighten the slide, lighten the firing pin, lighten the hammer, change the hammer spring, lighten the trigger pull*, reduce the trigger pull* (*commonly called a trigger job), cut the barrel length down, etc etc. Many of those mods are done to "race guns" so they have less "lock time" for better accuracy & faster shooting. What about adding a huge drum or a super long belt? A guy with a 100rd drum is going to be able to shoot more rounds over time than a guy with the same gun, but with a 10rd magazine. Are large capacity magazines now multi-burst trigger activators because you can shoot longer before reloading? What about stuff that lets you change magazines faster like mag well funnels, extended mag releases, etc? How about hot loads with light bullets? All those items attach to the gun.

Never seen a Slidefire stock, but I can imagine how it works. It's just a prop for someone who can't bump fire correctly, or won't practice enough. If you understand how a semi-auto gun works, then you will know that the so called rate of fire is mechanically limited by the design of the operating system. If you knew anything about the Poor Man's Machine Gun than you would know that the speed of the trigger cam had to be kept below the mechanical limit of the gun's ability to cycle the action & reset the trigger/sear. If you try pushing a semi-auto too fast by overspeeding it's trigger, it will not fire until it can reset itself. No so called trigger activators (Slidefire stocks included) can make a semi-auto gun shoot faster than what a human is capable of doing, either with skilled trigger finger work or by skilled bump firing. Simple physics. The Poor Man's Machine Gun is not restricted Federally because it shoots too fast, but because it allows more than one shot to be fired with the simple flip of a switch.

Personally I could care less about trigger activators. Most are cheap junk anyways. The only one that's somewhat useful is the Tri-Burst, IMO. I've got one stored in NV, but haven't used it for many years. Once you learn how to bump fire correctly, you won't want to play with gimmicks. You're right that it should not be put ahead of fighting other larger CA anti-gun laws, but you're 100% wrong that's it's not vague & unenforceable, as written. Of course no one will know for sure if it's never challenged.

bohoki
06-09-2012, 11:12 AM
the romak type stocks have a spring loaded buttplate and if you are skilled you can use that to your advantage does that make it a burst fire device as well?

Josh3239
06-09-2012, 12:40 PM
Not that anyone cares but I am with Mr Clarence Boddicker. This device is basically a free floating thumbhole stock/retractable stock. Or in other words, just a stock. It fails to have anything to do with the trigger, playing with springs/bolt groups/gas settings/etc have a large effect on changing rof than this stock, and it creates a burst that is just as fast and done the same way as someone rapidly hitting the trigger twice.

With respect to Shark, but he said what can be done with the Slidefire cannot be done with a finger. When shown proof he said you cannot do it standing and moving. Standing and moving is irrelevant and is not the barometer to what is or isn't a mbta. Regardless, there is a guy on Youtube with an RRA 9mm AR15 who easily shoots as fast as a slidefire from the shoulder, standing and moving at steel targets just a few yards in front of them. It can certainly be done without the stock.

And with respect to Bill, it seems to me that you seem more like your making the point that you can be prosecuted by it, not so much that it is illegal. The naysaying to this stock versus a GAT or Hellfire seems reminiscent of the naysaying of an open magwell, magazine locking mechanism. As for Jason Davis, I know he has done great things for the cause and is a great attorney, but as an attorney his number one priority is winning cases. Legal or illegal, if he believes he would lose a court case on it I think it obvious he wouldn't support his fellow gunowners owning it. But again, this is reminiscent of the bullet button and the naysayers reminding us that legal or illegal we can be prosecuted for an OLL having an open magwell.

the romak type stocks have a spring loaded buttplate and if you are skilled you can use that to your advantage does that make it a burst fire device as well?

2 words: Atkins Accelerator. Keep in mind this is a case by case basis, Slidefire are the ones with the letter from the ATF, the same ATF that bent over Mr Atkins for his stock (after initially approving it no less). Even if the CA DOJ went after you, having that ATF letter to show a jury could certainly help. But then again how many people and retailers have the DOJ gone after again?

Steve G
06-09-2012, 1:06 PM
Not that anyone cares but I am with Mr Clarence Boddicker. This device is basically a free floating thumbhole stock/retractable stock. Or in other words, just a stock. It fails to have anything to do with the trigger, playing with springs/bolt groups/gas settings/etc have a large effect on changing rof than this stock, and it creates a burst that is just as fast and done the same way as someone rapidly hitting the trigger twice.

With respect to Shark, but he said what can be done with the Slidefire cannot be done with a finger. When shown proof he said you cannot do it standing and moving. Standing and moving is irrelevant and is not the barometer to what is or isn't a mbta. Regardless, there is a guy on Youtube with an RRA 9mm AR15 who easily shoots as fast as a slidefire from the shoulder, standing and moving at steel targets just a few yards in front of them. It can certainly be done without the stock.

And with respect to Bill, it seems to me that you seem more like your making the point that you can be prosecuted by it, not so much that it is illegal. The naysaying to this stock versus a GAT or Hellfire seems reminiscent of the naysaying of an open magwell, magazine locking mechanism. As for Jason Davis, I know he has done great things for the cause and is a great attorney, but as an attorney his number one priority is winning cases. Legal or illegal, if he believes he would lose a court case on it I think it obvious he wouldn't support his fellow gunowners owning it. But again, this is reminiscent of the bullet button and the naysayers reminding us that legal or illegal we can be prosecuted for an OLL having an open magwell.



2 words: Atkins Accelerator. Keep in mind this is a case by case basis, Slidefire are the ones with the letter from the ATF, the same ATF that bent over Mr Atkins for his stock (after initially approving it no less). Even if the CA DOJ went after you, having that ATF letter to show a jury could certainly help. But then again how many people and retailers have the DOJ gone after again?

Respectful and very well written. I tend to agree with Josh.

NHP1127
06-09-2012, 3:12 PM
Is really so hard for a Cal Guns lawyer to request an official position in writing from the Calif DOJ? They either say "yes" or "no". Has this already been done or am I missing something?

Librarian
06-09-2012, 5:31 PM
Is really so hard for a Cal Guns lawyer to request an official position in writing from the Calif DOJ? They either say "yes" or "no". Has this already been done or am I missing something?

The DOJ, supervised by the Attorney General, is not required to reply to 'citizen' inquiries; the advisory role is to the government of California.

And, for political reasons that should be apparent, providing clarity in gun laws is not in the perceived interests of the current AG.

Librarian
06-09-2012, 5:43 PM
Let's look a this based on expected results.

There is a common opinion, which I share, that the slide-fire stock is illegal. (That is, the opinion is it's a multiburst trigger activator, and violates PC 32900.)

Suppose that opinion is wrong.

What are the consequences of following that wrong opinion? I suggest that the results are a few people (dozens? hundreds?) forgo the pleasure of an amusing device.

There is the complementary position, that the slide-fire stock is legal.

Suppose that opinion is wrong.

What are the consequences of following that wrong opinion? Some small number of people (dozens? hundreds?) would buy the devices. Every one of those runs some (unknown level of) risk of "imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison."

Be informed. Make a choice based on your understanding of risk.

Fate
06-09-2012, 6:10 PM
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and theres many more from 1022's to AR...

I wasn't disputing that it's possible to bumpfire from the shoulder. I've done it. I was only noting that that video shows something else. You can even see it on the guy's face that he wasn't intending to go full auto. If he had, his face would've looked like this :D instead of :confused:

Jeepers
06-09-2012, 6:26 PM
I wasn't disputing that it's possible to bumpfire from the shoulder. I've done it. I was only noting that that video shows something else. You can even see it on the guy's face that he wasn't intending to go full auto. If he had, his face would've looked like this :D instead of :confused:

that was ment to be bumpfire , it was the same person shooting off the bench with the AR he also has a "HOW TO" vid for bumpfireing with bipod and from the shoulder ....... so you may be correct or not on out of spec FCG, but the vid was a demo of shoulder fired bumpfire not out of spec parts .....

vintagearms
06-09-2012, 6:33 PM
A dealer I know phoned DOJ to ask when they'll come out with a statement about the slidefire. He was told that so far they can't refute that the stock is a non-mechanism.

Mebbe someone here can phone them and help them declare it illegal?

I'd rather someone call and help them declare it LEGAL.

arsilva32
06-09-2012, 8:03 PM
Let's look a this based on expected results.

There is a common opinion, which I share, that the slide-fire stock is illegal. (That is, the opinion is it's a multiburst trigger activator, and violates PC 32900.)

Suppose that opinion is wrong.

What are the consequences of following that wrong opinion? I suggest that the results are a few people (dozens? hundreds?) forgo the pleasure of an amusing device.

There is the complementary position, that the slide-fire stock is legal.

Suppose that opinion is wrong.



What are the consequences of following that wrong opinion? Some small number of people (dozens? hundreds?) would buy the devices. Every one of those runs some (unknown level of) risk of "imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison."

Be informed. Make a choice based on your understanding of risk.



isn't that what i basically said? is it worth being a test case just for a few wasted rounds bumpfiring? not to me it isnt.


P.S. i like bills new name for the PHM ( purple hamster masturbator ) thats possible sig fodder right there.

r8dr rider
06-09-2012, 8:03 PM
Somebody here should just buy one and "take one for the team". I would but they don't make slide fires for M1As.