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Jagermeister
06-08-2012, 9:02 AM
If you have a WWII German bring back pistol that's been in the family for decades and in CA since the mid 90s:

- Is there a need to register this gun with the DOJ?
- Can it be taken to and used at the range by all family members?
- Would the family members need handgun safety certifications?

Thanks!

Jagermeister

Librarian
06-08-2012, 11:08 AM
If you have a WWII German bring back pistol that's been in the family for decades and in CA since the mid 90s:

- Is there a need to register this gun with the DOJ?
- Can it be taken to and used at the range by all family members?
- Would the family members need handgun safety certifications?

Thanks!

Jagermeister

No.

Yes.

No - that's for buying or receiving in another kind of transfer.

Jagermeister
06-08-2012, 11:36 AM
No - that's for buying or receiving in another kind of transfer.

Or if you lend it to a non-family member?

Thanks for the quick help!

Jagermeister

FXR
06-08-2012, 4:54 PM
No.

Yes.

No - that's for buying or receiving in another kind of transfer.

Really? I could have sworn that to lend a handgun, the borrower had to have an HSC. If the OP is the owner, wouldn't he be lending it to everyone else?

Librarian
06-08-2012, 5:38 PM
Really? I could have sworn that to lend a handgun, the borrower had to have an HSC. If the OP is the owner, wouldn't he be lending it to everyone else?

Lending is 'another kind of transfer'; the HSC applies when the loan really is supposed to go through an FFL, that is, for longer than 30 days, and for OPLAW transfers - intrafamily or inheritance or spouse-to-spouse.

Mssr. Eleganté
06-08-2012, 7:45 PM
Really? I could have sworn that to lend a handgun, the borrower had to have an HSC. If the OP is the owner, wouldn't he be lending it to everyone else?

You are correct. The person who borrows the handgun needs an HSC. So if one brother owns the handgun then the other brother would need an HSC to borrow it, unless the borrower stays "within the presence" of the lender. And like Librarian said, if the loan is longer than 30 days then the loan would have to be processed through a California licensed dealer (and the borrower would still need an HSC).

mrdd
06-09-2012, 2:58 AM
I tried asking this before, but I don't remember getting a clear answer: just what constitutes "loaning" or "borrowing"? Are these terms legally defined? If you let someone hold a gun for a few seconds, is that a "loan"? Or does it only count as a "loan" if the borrower physically removes the gun from your presence? That would seem to be common definition. If I let someone sit in my car, or even drive it while I'm in the passenger seat, I'm not "loaning" it to them, right? However, if I give someone the keys and let them take it to the store, that would be a "loan". Or if I go to the library and read a book, I'm not "loaning" or "borrowing" the book until I check it out, right?

California law defines an instance of loaning where the loaner is at all times in the presence of the loanee (CA PC 27885). As a practical matter, a transfer happens whenever a firearm changes hands. The above cited section is an exception from the requirement to perform a PPT.

Mssr. Eleganté
06-09-2012, 2:36 PM
So you're saying that if someone helps you load/unload your guns out of the trunk of your car, you're "loaning" them your guns for 10 seconds??

You could call that a loan, but it's a loan that is exempt from any FFL or paperwork or reporting or HSC requirements, so it doesn't really matter.

The penal code does not define what a loan is. The penal code just says that firearms loans have to be processed through an FFL, but then exempts certain types of loans (which it does define) from having to go through an FFL.

Loans up to 30 days to persons "personally known" to you don't have to go through an FFL as long as the loans are "infrequent". If the firearm is a handgun then the loanee needs to have an HSC. You don't need to stay near the loanee during this kind of loan. They can take the gun home or go shooting by themselves.

You can also loan a handgun to a complete stranger who does not have an HSC. But with this kind of loan you have to stay in the presence of the loanee the whole time and the loan can't exceed three days.

mrdd
06-10-2012, 5:09 AM
So you're saying that if someone helps you load/unload your guns out of the trunk of your car, you're "loaning" them your guns for 10 seconds??

The law sees it as a transfer, and you're probably relying on the exception in PC 27885. Note that this case does not have an "infrequent" requirement.

27885. Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm if all of the following conditions exist:

(a) The person loaning the firearm is at all times within the presence of the person being loaned the firearm.

(b) The loan is for a lawful purpose.

(c) The loan does not exceed three days in duration.

(d) The individual receiving the firearm is not prohibited by state or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a firearm.

(e) The person loaning the firearm is 18 years of age or older.

(f) The person being loaned the firearm is 18 years of age or older.

Section 27545 is the requirement to transfer through an FFL (PPT).

mofugly13
06-10-2012, 5:16 AM
If one of us takes a new shooter to the range, as we are all encouraged to do, do we need to make them get an HSC in order to fire one of our handguns? If so, it seems like yet another way of discouraging new shooters/2A supporters.

mrdd
06-10-2012, 5:23 AM
If one of us takes a new shooter to the range, as we are all encouraged to do, do we need to make them get an HSC in order to fire one of our handguns? If so, it seems like yet another way of discouraging new shooters/2A supporters.

No, because PC 27885 does not require an HSC for handguns. As long as you remain in their presence the entire time.