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HBrebel
06-07-2012, 5:38 PM
I just got this email article from JFPO (Jews For the Preservation of Firearms Ownership) and found it pretty interesting and thought provoking. Here is a link to the article:
http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/bohica.htm

SanPedroShooter
06-07-2012, 6:38 PM
JFPO is a very strident organization. Take that for what ever its worth. I like them on principle, and have bought a few of their 'All in favor in gun control, raise your right hand' Adolf hitler stickers.

They have there place in the scheme of things. I leave it up the NRA to get our collective hands dirty and play politics while SAF and few others get down to business in the courts.

JFPO, why not? There is some advantage in monopolizing on moral high ground, and Jews can always point to the holocaust to make their case.


This is a link that shows the collective human cost of gun control. They should probably add Cuba and now Venezuela and Syria...
http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm#chart


And to answer your question, 'We' are doing the best we can. California is not exactly a bastion of reasonableness.

HBrebel
06-08-2012, 2:57 PM
Just to be clear, I was not trying to push JFPO on anybody. I just thought folks might like to read that article. I too am NRA but they don't really care for guys like me. I'm sure JFPO wouldn't let me in their house either.

Spirit 1
06-08-2012, 3:38 PM
I'd say JPFO is a very important organization today. It always amazes me to hear that the very large percentage of Jews in America along with most minorities identify with the Democrats and leftists and their gun-grabbing oppressive agendas. Of all people in the history of the world the Jew should be fiercely against almost all of the Dem & leftist entrapment principles. Here the JPFO stands up boldly in the crowd and makes real sense and tells it like it really is! I say more power to them in every way!

The JPFO would be happy to accept you into membership and you don't even have to be Jewish to join.

Gem1950
06-08-2012, 4:59 PM
This is a link that shows the collective human cost of gun control. They should probably add Cuba and now Venezuela and Syria...
http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm#chart


Don't forget Mexico. One of the best examples of only the bad guys having the guns. I would include their government in that one too.

hoffmang
06-08-2012, 5:29 PM
Absolutism is so much easier than thinking through a plan to incrementally bring back everything absolutists complain we've lost.

It's the tale of the old bull, the young bull, and the herd of cows...

-Gene

dantodd
06-08-2012, 5:54 PM
Absolutism is so much easier than thinking through a plan to incrementally bring back everything absolutists complain we've lost.

It's the tale of the old bull, the young bull, and the herd of cows...

-Gene

Yes, but if not for young bulls we'd never have old bulls.

taperxz
06-08-2012, 6:09 PM
It's the tale of the old bull, the young bull, and the herd of cows...

-Gene

I always thought it was the old man and young man, and the flock of sheep?:p

wjc
06-08-2012, 6:12 PM
I always thought it was the old man and young man, and the flock of sheep?:p

Are you from New Zealand? :D

hoffmang
06-08-2012, 6:13 PM
Yes, but if not for young bulls we'd never have old bulls.

The only way you get young bulls is with the sexual exploits of the old bulls...

-Gene

dantodd
06-08-2012, 6:24 PM
The only way you get young bulls is with the sexual exploits of the old bulls...

-Gene

Yes, they need each other. It is the danger of the extremist that drives the antis into working with the incrementalist.

hoffmang
06-08-2012, 6:32 PM
Yes, they need each other. It is the danger of the extremist that drives the antis into working with the incrementalist.

Uhm, I think you missed something. Without Old Bulls we'd all still be focused on this:

http://www.thediamondjubilee.org/

-Gene

dantodd
06-08-2012, 6:36 PM
Uhm, I think you missed something. Without Old Bulls we'd all still be focused on this:

http://www.thediamondjubilee.org/

-Gene

Isn't that what most of the US media is focused on? Bread and Circus.

rugershooter
06-08-2012, 11:25 PM
Absolutism is so much easier than thinking through a plan to incrementally bring back everything absolutists complain we've lost.

It's the tale of the old bull, the young bull, and the herd of cows...

-Gene

I'm a 2A absolutist. But I also recognize and agree with thinking though things and taking steps. One problem I see is that many pro gun people see those steps as being the end in and of itself. For example, I'd like Constitutional Carry here in CA, but I realize that's a long ways down the road and there's no realistic way to get it without first getting shall-issue LTCs. But many people only want the LTCs because they don't trust people with freedoms unless they have the approved government training and permission slip.

Sunday
06-09-2012, 7:16 AM
Pretty much the truth.

scarville
06-09-2012, 8:21 AM
I'm a 2A absolutist. But I also recognize and agree with thinking though things and taking steps. One problem I see is that many pro gun people see those steps as being the end in and of itself. For example, I'd like Constitutional Carry here in CA, but I realize that's a long ways down the road and there's no realistic way to get it without first getting shall-issue LTCs. But many people only want the LTCs because they don't trust people with freedoms unless they have the approved government training and permission slip.
From reading the 2A forums here I strongly suspect that if Calguns ever does gets "virtual shall issue", their support will drop off considerably.

jdberger
06-09-2012, 8:39 AM
The only way you get young bulls is with the sexual exploits of the old bulls...

-Gene

I can't remember, you self-identifying with the young guys or the old guys these days? :D:D

Dreaded Claymore
06-09-2012, 8:43 AM
Just to be clear, I was not trying to push JFPO on anybody. I just thought folks might like to read that article. I too am NRA but they don't really care for guys like me. I'm sure JFPO wouldn't let me in their house either.

What kind of guy is a guy like you?

dantodd
06-09-2012, 9:00 AM
From reading the 2A forums here I strongly suspect that if Calguns ever does gets "virtual shall issue", their support will drop off considerably.


Some people mistake milestones for goals. Those people may be useful in Short-term efforts but are not responsible for strategy.

scarville
06-09-2012, 9:32 AM
Just to be clear, I was not trying to push JFPO on anybody. I just thought folks might like to read that article. I too am NRA but they don't really care for guys like me. I'm sure JFPO wouldn't let me in their house either.
HUH?!?! Could you explain that, please.

Meplat
06-09-2012, 10:53 AM
I always thought it was the old man and young man, and the flock of sheep?:p

No, that’s the old liberal and the young liberal.

Meplat
06-09-2012, 4:14 PM
From reading the 2A forums here I strongly suspect that if Calguns ever does gets "virtual shall issue", their support will drop off considerably.

I disagree. I know it is the dream of CGF leadership to get this over with and get back to their lives. However, there will be a need for an organization like this far into the future.
If we ever do get anything like constitutional carry in this state, the response will be to make it very risky and dangerous to do so. The greatest tool in that box is firearms enhancements.

Hypothetical: You are driving between Ludlow and Needles at 3AM. Now Ludlow is the very definition of the middle of nowhere. The gas station sells T shirts that have a road Signe with a buzzard sitting on it. It says: “Needles 150 MI, Water 100 MI, Hell 10 Feet.” But you have to Pee like a Russian Midget. You can see no lights for 100 mi in all directions. You pull over, step off the road. And you are watering a cactus plant that looks like it really needs it. Just then headlights, spotlights and off-road lights eliminate the world like it was noon. A disembodied electronically amplified voice tells you; “Put your hands on top of your head and walk backward toward the light”.

Two hours later you have been cuffed, disarmed, and are watching a tow truck haul your car away to who knows where. You are stuffed into the back of a BLM wannabie’s SUV. You have been caught red handed (or red peckered as the case may be) molesting an endangered species (a $500 misdemeanor), however you were using a vehicle in said crime (felony enhancement), and you were doing it while armed (25 year sentence enhancement).

This battle will not be over when we get shall issue.

scarville
06-10-2012, 2:20 PM
I disagree. I know it is the dream of CGF leadership to get this over with and get back to their lives. However, there will be a need for an organization like this far into the future.
I agree that some organization will have to succeed Calguns. If for no other reason than to slow the inevitable enchroachments.

If we ever do get anything like constitutional carry in this state, the response will be to make it very risky and dangerous to do so. The greatest tool in that box is firearms enhancements.
I put the odds that California will go constitutional carry in the next several decades somewhere between zero and nothing. Still, your argument about penalty enhancement being used against gun owners is good one. IIRC, there is a new bill in the CA legislature about just that. Extra enhancement on the enhanced enhancements for use of a firearm.

<hypothetical snipped>

This battle will not be over when we get shall issue.
I agree but I think for a lot of Calgunners that permission slip is like the Holy Grail. If Calguns can get some reasonable equivalent of shall issue CCW then I think a lot of -- maybe even a majority of -- Calgunners will consider that the endgame.

hoffmang
06-10-2012, 2:54 PM
Constitutional carry is going to happen because people can convince courts in Texas or Florida to go there and then it would get re-imported into CA. Direct action to get Constitutional carry here in California is a losers game as the UOC advocacy highlighted.

People adequately armed in such a way that nimbys and the portion of law enforcement that hates legal gun owners don't see isn't a bad outcome for the medium term.

One problem with Constitutional carry in regions that are anti-gun is that it puts pressure on private establishments like malls and restaurants to ban guns on their premises in ways that broad concealed carry does not.

-Gene

nicki
06-10-2012, 6:06 PM
Calguns will not die once we get virtual shall issue, if anything, it will have massive growth.

As far as constitutional carry, I agree with Gene that it won't happen here unless the courts force it.

While I would not champion against constitution carry, it is not something I would be promoting at this time, at least until we have every state with shall issue, 50 state carry and 50 state effective castle doctrine.

The reality is we are judged not by our best folks, but by our stupidest.

Carrying a gun IMHO should treated as a recognized right, but with fits come responsibilities.

Yes getting a ccw permit even under shall issue is a burden, but so is getting a driver's license.

Few of us would want constitutional driving where anyone could just drive a car on the highways with NO training of any kind.

When we do get carry in this state, the mission of calguns will probably change at that point to protecting gun owners from harassment.

When we get carry, we are probably going to get a generation of new gun owners and those people will probably be open to hooking up with an effective California based gun organization.

While the NRA handles things at the state level, many problems are at the local level and that is where Calguns will fill in.

Nicki

dantodd
06-10-2012, 6:19 PM
Time, Manner and Place restrictions certainly could work within a permitless carry environment. You can have manner regulations that require concealment even if requiring a license is deemed unconstitutional.

chris
06-10-2012, 6:21 PM
California is not exactly a bastion of reasonableness.

but it is the bastion of stupity on a scale that cannot be measured by mere mortal men.