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blackrazor
06-07-2012, 8:47 AM
Deleted

littlejake
06-07-2012, 8:56 AM
Selling to 20 or 30 different people is a problem. But the wording involves transactions per calendar year. They key is to find less than six parties to receive them.

Estates are often bought in total -- that's one transaction.

You probably garner the most money by finding a buyer for each separately -- but that trips the red flag.

If I wanted to liquidate because I needed money, I sell the whole lot to Martin Retting -- one transaction.

ExtremeX
06-07-2012, 8:58 AM
Gun stores who deal with consignment sales might be another option, or shops willing to buy the lot. You probably wont be getting the type of money you would want for them going this route.

chillincody
06-07-2012, 9:00 AM
Does selling to gun store count as one transaction ? Or is it just ppt?

winnre
06-07-2012, 9:04 AM
You'd think there would be an exception for estate settling.

ojisan
06-07-2012, 9:57 AM
^ There is.
Can't remember the exact wording....it's one time or occassional sale.
You can't do this all the time but an estate sale is certainly "one time" and "occasional".
Just keep records of the estate's asset sales and where they went if any questions.
Same would also apply in a bankruptcy or other financial hardship situation.

Otherwise 5 handgun transactions max per year...but more than one handgun per transaction is OK.
Long guns...no limit on sales.
All gun sales...not done with "frequency or regularity" that makes you appear that you are in the business of gun sales without a license.

shooting4life
06-07-2012, 11:04 AM
Does it make a difference if you are selling to someone out of state as compared to a face to face transaction in California?

Librarian
06-07-2012, 11:07 AM
Somebody here posted about contacting DOJ in a similar situation, and was told that would not be considered being 'in the business'. Wasn't from a DOJ lawyer in a written opinion ...

littlejake
06-07-2012, 11:44 AM
Does it make a difference if you are selling to someone out of state as compared to a face to face transaction in California?

There's also a vague federal limit -- paraphrased as," ... not done with frequency or regularity..."

I'd never sell to an out of state entity because handguns are DROS'ed to me. The NLIP requires more than your word these days. How does one get them out of ones name.

(Sorry if that's topic drift, Librarian:D)

unusedusername
06-07-2012, 12:40 PM
For them to get you, they would have to be able to convince a jury of your peers (probably people that know nothing about guns...) that you are "in the business" of selling guns for a profit.

These magic numbers folks are worried about is just the tripping point for where they can start to investigate you.

It is vague and unclear, yes, but consider if what you are doing "looks" like what a gun shop does.

I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advise. It might be bad advise.

Librarian
06-07-2012, 1:35 PM
Well, in light of the legal fiasco going on right now re: PPT's of unrostered handguns: what happens if you sell a collection of 10 handguns to a single buyer, but he only wants 7 of them?

You can only sell them in bulk lots (regardless of what the buyer wants) thanks to the provisions outline in 12070, so he has to buy them all even if he doesn't want them all.

After the sale, he then turns around and sells the guns he didn't want, but now he's in trouble because he "wasn't the actual purchaser" of the guns he didn't want!?

What if he waited a year to sell them, does that make it legal?

Or maybe he should just wait 5 years to sell them so that even if they try to accuse him of lying on the Form 4473 the statute of limitation will have expired?

You're way over thinking this. Deep breaths, and paragraphs...

1) No, you are not limited to selling whole lots with many handguns in each. You CAN, and selling a lot of 1 and a lot of 10 are each one 'transaction' of the 'not more than 5 per year'.

2) If the buyer actually did buy 10, but wanted only 7 of them, there's no reason he could not sell the other 3. That 'actual purchaser' thing comes into play when someone else has arranged a 'you buy it and then I'll buy it from you' kind of thing. That isn't what you suggested.

The whole idea is to not act like a dealer, selling without an FFL; over 5 transactions a year is when someone at DOJ might wonder if you should get a phone call.

ptoguy2002
06-07-2012, 1:47 PM
We need to start a list of all the "little things" wrong with California firearms law that maybe a friendly legislature member can bury in a bill someplace
-A fix to this problem
-A fix to the marking issues
....

mrdd
06-09-2012, 3:17 AM
It seems unlikely that you would get prosecuted for a one-time liquidation of an entire collection or even selling a significant number of items as long as you did not do it repeatedly.

ClarenceBoddicker
06-09-2012, 3:52 AM
ATF defines dealing without a license as buying & selling guns for income. You can legally sell 1000's of guns if your intent when buying them was not to make money selling them later. You can break the law by buying & selling just one gun, if the intent was to make money. People with large gun collections sell them or their heirs do after they die. You don't see widows being forced to get FFL's to sell their husband's gun collection.

Buying without an FFL = OK
Selling without an FFL = OK
Buying & selling without an FFL with intent to make money = Felony

dantodd
06-09-2012, 6:07 AM
We need to start a list of all the "little things" wrong with California firearms law that maybe a friendly legislature member can bury in a bill someplace
-A fix to this problem
-A fix to the marking issues
....

There aren't enough bits on CalGuns to list ALL the things wrong with California's gun laws.

NYsteveZ
06-09-2012, 8:41 AM
I would figure most people sell off their guns at a loss. Sure there are a few guns out there that gain immediate value, but most dont, especially after theyve been used and abused. I would think anyone questioning the transactions can look at what you paid vs. what you sold them for and say the guy isnt selling for profit. I would also think the state would be thrilled if you sold them to a party out of state.

SoCal Gunner
06-09-2012, 11:27 AM
Let's say you've got 20 or 30 handguns, and you need money so you sell them off

So let's cut to the chase: Whatcha got?

dantodd
06-09-2012, 12:59 PM
As far as I can tell, buying a gun and turning around and just giving it to somebody else is what a "straw purchase" is all about. That's what's illegal. But if you buy a gun and then transfer it though legal channels to somebody else, it shouldn't matter if you made money or lost money, it shouldn't matter if it took 1 day or 1 year.

you are conflating 2 issues. Flipping essentially new guns and buying exact replacements only to sell those again is what has been alleged here. Doing this with the intent to make money is "dealing without a license" and, so far has not been implicated in the "straw purchase" charges which are based on other transactions which suggested that someone other than the person paying for and filling out the 4473 for a gun was initiating the purchase or had a financial interest in the gun before it was transfered.