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greentriple
06-06-2012, 6:44 PM
Diceptive title...

What I'm looking for is suggestions on a non-AR Cal legal semi-auto rifle. For example, a bullpup model. And where to get my mits on it.

Richard Erichsen
06-06-2012, 7:18 PM
Diceptive title...

What I'm looking for is suggestions on a non-AR Cal legal semi-auto rifle. For example, a bullpup model. And where to get my mits on it.

You might get whacky responses to this unless you specify 1) a budget 2) If you want something featureless or bullet-button locked 3) what sort of shooting you plan to do and the sort of distances or game critters you plan to hunt 4) The calibers you are interested in

Contrary to the above, there are far more semi-automatic rifles in the world than the AR. Off-list rifles are a much longer list than on-list (fortunately). Have a look at the flowchart and the rifles banned by name and feature to get an idea of what you need to comply with. Report back with the above and there are folks here who will steer you in the right direction.

R

greentriple
06-06-2012, 7:26 PM
>$2K.
I want a decent sight and light.
I'd like it to require a bullet button to release mag.
I'm thinking PD.
Not sure on caliber.

Richard Erichsen
06-06-2012, 7:46 PM
>$2K. Less than $2K then?

I want a decent sight and light. Do you mean iron sights and some way to mount a flashlight?

I'd like it to require a bullet button to release mag. I'm not sure you understood that question. The reference was to the two configurations for a semi-auto off-list rifle you can own or build. This first option is a rifle an off-list rifle with "evil features" and a fixed 10 round magazine (such as a bullet button secured mag where a tool is needed to release the magazine), the second option is a "featureless" rifle with magazines that are detachable without the need for a tool and you can use any standard capacity magazines you may have obtained prior to the year 2000 when the large capacity mag ban went into effect. For the featureless option, the pistol grip must be removed or obscured (grip straps or special pistol grips, Monsterman or Hammerhead, for example) unless the rifle is already using a semi-pistol grip, such as the Mini-14, M1A, etc. View the Flowcharts and OLL Assembly Guide under the CGN banner and the advertisers banners.

I'm thinking PD. OK

Not sure on caliber. That would help to know. Your capabilities and costs fire your rifle will be based more or less directly on the decisions you make with regard to caliber.

R

Librarian
06-06-2012, 7:47 PM
>$2K.
I want a decent sight and light.
I'd like it to require a bullet button to release mag.
I'm thinking PD.
Not sure on caliber.

M1a with McMillan or JAE stock.

freonr22
06-06-2012, 7:48 PM
Fal...mas....1919a4..

Richard Erichsen
06-06-2012, 7:54 PM
Fal...mas....1919a4..

FAL, sure. MAS, only if it's been rechambered would I agree with that one (do we really want to direct this chap to use a MAS49 in an obsolete caliber like French 7.5x54mm?). FAL would need some "improvements" on the often wobbly rear sights, but the sights are adequate otherwise. Mounting a light is a bit challenging without adding a picatinny segment to the handguard through the bottom hole. Not sure what you could do with an old MAS49, unless you used zip ties or duct tape. I could almost follow on the last two, but the Browning 1919A4? I think he said RIFLE. ;)

R

greentriple
06-06-2012, 7:56 PM
I'm clearly a neophyte on the topic.
I want "evil features" that require fixed mag.
I want a easy to acquire scope/sight with moderate magnification.
I'd like to mount a flashlights as well.
I'm open o advise on caliber.

greentriple
06-06-2012, 7:58 PM
I like the M1A. What are some advantages and disadvantages?

freonr22
06-06-2012, 8:01 PM
FAL, sure. MAS, only if it's been rechambered would I agree with that one (do we really want to direct this chap to use a MAS49 in an obsolete caliber like French 7.5x54mm?). FAL would need some "improvements" on the often wobbly rear sights, but the sights are adequate otherwise. Mounting a light is a bit challenging without adding a picatinny segment to the handguard through the bottom hole. Not sure what you could do with an old MAS49, unless you used zip ties or duct tape. I could almost follow on the last two, but the Browning 1919A4? I think he said RIFLE. ;)

R

I was just trying to open the mind to all possibilities..

Richard Erichsen
06-06-2012, 8:07 PM
I'm clearly a neophyte on the topic.

We all have to start somewhere.

I want "evil features" that require fixed mag.

The Flowchart will guide you - review it, learn it, know it, print it, laminate it and live by it. Hopefully you'll never have to explain it to an LEO because of a misunderstanding.

I want a easy to acquire scope/sight with moderate magnification.

Don't get ahead of yourself. Rifle first, then work out the mount/base/rings and scope. A good scope may cost as much as the rifle.

I'd like to mount a flashlights as well.
I'm open o advise on caliber.

You are a new user and don't appear to have any hunting plans or any terribly specific needs. Plinking on the 100 yard range? Maybe a tactical carbine course or two? Common intermediate calibers are likely a best bet for you. I am curious why you began with "non-AR" - any specific reason why?

For milder calibers, because I don't have a lot to go on, I'd suggest any of the following:

* 22 LR
* .223 or 5.56 NATO
* 5.54x39 mm
* 7.62x39 mm

There are plenty of rifles in the calibers above, though if your total budget, which scope is $2K you can exclude a lot of rifles from the list right off the bat. Others may scoff at this, but I'd put the .22 cals at the top of the list so that you can learn proper technique and avoid developing a flinch (they can be hard to get rid of).

.22 Long Rifle
* Ruger 10/22
* Marlin Model 60

.223/5.56 NATO
* Daewoo DR200
* SIG 556
* Armalite AR180B
* Ruger Mini-14
* Polish OBR Beryl (Atlantic Firearms)
* Serbian Zastava M85 Krinkov (Atlantic Firearms)
* Arsenal SLR-106FR

5.45x39 mm
* Polish OBR Tantal (Atlantic Firearms)
* VEPR AK74 (Atlantic Firearms)

7.62x39 mm
* Ruger Mini-30
* Daewoo DR300
* SIG 556R
* Serbian Zastava M92 Krinkov (Atlantic Firearms)
* Serbian Zastava M70 PAP (Atlantic Firearms)
* VEPR AK47 (Atlantic Firearms)

All of these rifles would need to be fitted with a bullet button and other adjustments made (pinning buttstocks, etc.) prior to shipment to CA or to your FFL.

This is not an attempt to build an exhaustive list, that would take awhile, but should give you some idea of what's out there.

R

greentriple
06-06-2012, 8:16 PM
5.54X39 is something I've looked at.
Everyone and their grandma had an AR. I'm already a Glock owner.
Float chart?!?

Mossy Man
06-06-2012, 8:17 PM
saiga ak74 conversion imo

wireless
06-06-2012, 8:43 PM
I thought the M1A didn't require a bullet button?

Librarian
06-06-2012, 8:47 PM
I thought the M1A didn't require a bullet button?

As usually configured, it doesn't.

If you change to a pistol-grip-type stock, it has a 'feature'; to keep the feature, need the magazine lock.

Richard Erichsen
06-06-2012, 8:55 PM
I like the M1A. What are some advantages and disadvantages?

Other than cost ($1400 is about as low as a basic model goes, not counting fancy stocks that add $800, a suitable optic and base or the more costly ammo), these are rifles in a full power rifle caliber, the .308 Winchester (can also fire 7.62 NATO). It's a poor first rifle, the cost of shooting it, the recoil, length and weight will turn it into a safe queen until you're ready. In time, it will make more sense. It's a "tame looking" rifle (not something most LEOs would mistake for an AW) which has advantages in some circles. Detachable mags are the norm with this configuration.

R

Richard Erichsen
06-06-2012, 8:58 PM
5.54X39 is something I've looked at.
Everyone and their grandma had an AR. I'm already a Glock owner.
Float chart?!?

5.45x39 mm is still the cheapest milsurp going. Only .22 LR approaches the shear cost effectiveness to shoot regularly.

The flow chart is on the top of the page on the same line with HOME and THE RULES. Here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8714011#mypopupmenu

Have a gander. You'll need to know it well and it's advised you keep a copy on hand at all times.

R

Ziggy91
06-06-2012, 9:15 PM
I've been sick of the AR scene for a while now, so no surprise seeing this thread.

If you're a little guy (under 5'8"ish) then try out an AK 47 or 74 variant. Lots of options for make/model, probably get a rail and attach a light easily, and ammo is dirt cheap.

If you're over 6' like me (i'm 6'3") then try out an FAL or PTR. Just picked up my PTR last month and haven't felt more comfortable with a rifle in my life. It's like the thing was made for my big a** hands and long arms. On the downside of these, I don't see anyone mounting lights or fancy optics on them, and your ammo may double in cost for good stuff over the AR.

Squidward
06-06-2012, 9:21 PM
Kriss Super V.

Richard Erichsen
06-06-2012, 9:38 PM
I've been sick of the AR scene for a while now, so no surprise seeing this thread.

If you're a little guy (under 5'8"ish) then try out an AK 47 or 74 variant. Lots of options for make/model, probably get a rail and attach a light easily, and ammo is dirt cheap.

Adjusting Length Of Pull (LOP) is easy enough to do on most common rifles. Where a buttstock length sized up or down doesn't exist, slip over buttpads can add length, or trimming material off (in some stocks possible, others not) to make them shorter.

If you're over 6' like me (i'm 6'3") then try out an FAL or PTR. Height really shouldn't be a consideration in rifle choice. Big Marines use dinky M4s all the time without difficulty. Overly long stocks do more harm than somewhat short stocks can do and prevent other family members or friends from mounting the rifle properly. The main reason to steer the OP away from the FAL and PTR91 rifles is the full power battering most new users aren't really ready for from a 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester chambering. Cost of ammo is a factor, though reloading is one option (yes, even for the PTR91) and with patience and investment will start to pay for itself after the first few thousand rounds.

On the downside of these, I don't see anyone mounting lights or fancy optics on them, and your ammo may double in cost for good stuff over the AR. If you buy a railed forend, you can mount whatever you want. PTR sells some fancy rail interfaces for their PTR91 rifle: http://scorpion-arms.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=2069
Mako makes a slightly better one for twice the price. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/996784/mako-one-piece-handguard-tri-rail-hk-91-g3-cetme-aluminum-black
You can go wild trick-tacticalizing your PTR91 if you really want to. The parts dealers have a higher than average price point for whatever suits your fancy.

R

Crazed_SS
06-06-2012, 9:43 PM
I like the M1A. What are some advantages and disadvantages?

Advantages:

-Doesnt require bullet button (unless you want to put evil features on it)
-Decent accuracy
-Big and Heavy
-Powerful
-Great iron sights
-Makes watermelons explode
-Powerful enough for hunting
-Very Reliable and easy to maintain

Disadvantages:

-Expensive to obtain .. at least $1500
-Mounting optics can be a challenge sometimes
-Ammo costs more than 5.56 or 7.62x39.. Surplus can be found for $10/box sometimes. Newer ammo can be $15-20/box
-Limited Aftermarket compared to ARs and AKs
-Big and Heavy

greentriple
06-07-2012, 5:35 PM
5.54X39 is something I've looked at.
Everyone and their grandma had an AR. I'm already a Glock owner.
Float chart?!?

Thanks everyone great info

Redchevyman
06-07-2012, 5:41 PM
Soumi M31 built from a kit. Fun project for $300.
http://cf.mp-cdn.net/79/35/ef9b6d9b52083b1260502e758b81.jpg

Richard Erichsen
06-07-2012, 7:22 PM
Why not? 7.62x25 is in the category with the more cost effective milsurp available, some of it quite spunky (the Czech stuff in particular), but this is basically a semi-auto SMG, a pistol caliber carbine rather than a "rifle" in the conventional sense. Looks like fun though.

R

JeremyKX
06-07-2012, 7:41 PM
For non bullpup,

SCAR