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JL99325
06-06-2012, 11:39 AM
If New York passes microstamping, will that have any impact on the ability of CA DOJ to implement it here?

I thought I read something about the patents being an issue but that was a while ago. If its enacted in NY would that trump any hold ups DOJ has in CA? If so, we should try and do whatever possible to stop microstamping in NY.

Would love to get an update from someone on this before I put too much time in.

OldShooter32
06-06-2012, 12:07 PM
If it won't work,costs a lot of money and retards law-abiding firearms sales, you bet California will jump on it!

robcoe
06-06-2012, 12:15 PM
IIRC the hold up is that the california law requires more than one company to hold the patent, I dont see how a NY law would trump that.

Mr.1904
06-06-2012, 12:32 PM
Call me a bad gunowner, or just new. But this is the first time i've heard of this. Looked it up on Wikipedia and it specifically said LEO's are exempt from the law??

How does that make sense???

oni.dori
06-06-2012, 12:35 PM
Also, from what I heard, one of the laws caveats is that a reliable, viably permanent form of the tech oligy must exist. Right now, as it stands (last I heard), there is no technology that exists that has been proven to last more than approx. 200 rounds in independant testing (could be FUD though, IDK).

clutchy
06-06-2012, 12:40 PM
I thought microstamping had already passed as a law here in CA, but no one can actually do it so it's been put on indefinite hold?

Decoligny
06-06-2012, 12:49 PM
Also, from what I heard, one of the laws caveats is that a reliable, viably permanent form of the tech oligy must exist. Right now, as it stands (last I heard), there is no technology that exists that has been proven to last more than approx. 200 rounds in independant testing (could be FUD though, IDK).

There is also no technology that will prevent the replacement of the firing pin, or the polishing off of the microstamp from then end of the firing pin with a dremel tool. :D

There is also no way to make the technology work on a revolver. No brass for the police to pick up, so no way the bad guy can be identified by the microstamp.

p7m8jg
06-06-2012, 12:51 PM
More crap we can fear from Jerry and the Pacemaker geriatic legislature. Possible? Sure. Probable? Depends who has more political suck in Sacratomato....

alfred1222
06-06-2012, 1:09 PM
People have been talking about microstamping for awhile, i doubt it will happen. its useless and ineffective

tba02
06-06-2012, 1:35 PM
If it won't work [and] costs a lot of money and retards law-abiding firearms sales, you bet California will jump on it!

Fixed that for ya !

oni.dori
06-06-2012, 1:40 PM
There is also no technology that will prevent the replacement of the firing pin, or the polishing off of the microstamp from then end of the firing pin with a dremel tool. :D

There is also no way to make the technology work on a revolver. No brass for the police to pick up, so no way the bad guy can be identified by the microstamp.

My understanding was there was no limitations in the law that pretender you from legally being able to swap out the barrel & firing pin in the first place.

oni.dori
06-06-2012, 1:40 PM
People have been talking about microstamping for awhile, i doubt it will happen. its useless and ineffective
Since when is that different from any othe CA gun law?

vantec08
06-06-2012, 1:45 PM
Call me a bad gunowner, or just new. But this is the first time i've heard of this. Looked it up on Wikipedia and it specifically said LEO's are exempt from the law??

How does that make sense???


Yes, LE is exempt . . . . because they are part of the protected class.

bwiese
06-06-2012, 1:47 PM
If New York passes microstamping, will that have any impact on the ability of CA DOJ to implement it here?

No, and I am curious why would you think so?

CA microstamping law (passed back in 2008) going further depends on technology that must be unencumbered by patents/licensing.

Even if a free license were given, that's still an encumbrance.

Plus, relevant proprietary technologies in the semiconductor and nanomachine fields. Broadly speaking, regulations cannot even be begin to be formulated until these hurdles are overcome - in addition to identifying appropriate technologies, setting standards, etc.

bwiese
06-06-2012, 1:48 PM
There is also no way to make the technology work on a revolver. No brass for the police to pick up, so no way the bad guy can be identified by the microstamp.

I believe the CA microstamping law only applied to pistols, not revolvers.

gunnerstuff
06-06-2012, 2:04 PM
That is the underlying problem with this technology. Bad guy finds some micro stamped cases. Does his deed with a revolver (of same caliber). Drops the ill begotten cases at the crime scene, and you get a knock on your door and have to spend tons of money trying to prove your innocence.

Decoligny
06-06-2012, 2:07 PM
I believe the CA microstamping law only applied to pistols, not revolvers.

Exactly, it won't prevent crimes commited with guns because criminals can still use revolvers to bypass the mircrostamping if ever implemented.

ubet
06-06-2012, 2:17 PM
Exactly, it won't prevent crimes commited with guns because criminals can still use revolvers to bypass the mircrostamping if ever implemented.

Well that is, if criminals actually REGISTERED their guns, but as we all know, they dont.

SFgiants105
06-06-2012, 2:22 PM
Who the hell came up with these laws? Did they even ask experts (as in anyone who knows a damn thing about guns at all) if it was feasible, or were they just smoking pot at a Phish concert when they were like "Hey, you know what would be a good idea..."

Librarian
06-06-2012, 2:43 PM
Who the hell came up with these laws? Did they even ask experts (as in anyone who knows a damn thing about guns at all) if it was feasible, or were they just smoking pot at a Phish concert when they were like "Hey, you know what would be a good idea..."

Again, please don't think California gun laws have anything to do with guns.

Bills always have more to do with getting re-elected. Technical merit is far less interesting to the politicians. We know; we've told them repeatedly; they don't change.

Tiberius
06-06-2012, 3:18 PM
I'm waiting for the "macrostamping" bill. This will require that if you fire a gun during a crime, you sign your name (and also print it) next to each casing. If you use a revolver, you must dump the empty brass on the ground and, again, sign and print your name.

I think this would do a lot to stop crime. Just think how easy it would be to catch every criminal since the police would have their names?

T

ja308
06-06-2012, 4:01 PM
this microstamping issue is a dream of international organisations ,the same international organisation that has already labeled cases of ammo with the #0012 .

Our rkba will be under attack as long as we elect those who pay tribute to international law .
Ive got my tin foil hat on so feel free to pile on and ridicule this post .

JL99325
06-06-2012, 4:07 PM
bwiese...my initial thought was that if NY passed microstamping then CA would somehow be able to show that the microstamping patents were no longer an issue and it would get implemented here. It seems like based on everyone's response that I was off on this (one of the times when its good to be wrong).

With that being said, and I'm not trying to doubt anyone's statements, but how do we know the patents are still encumbered? How long are they encumbered for?

asme
06-06-2012, 4:11 PM
More crap we can fear from Jerry and the Pacemaker geriatic legislature. Possible? Sure. Probable? Depends who has more political suck in Sacratomato....

I'm pretty sure Jerry the Attorney General was the reason we're not all shooting microstampified pistols today.

POLICESTATE
06-06-2012, 4:17 PM
Microstamping is not going to stop any gun crime. But that won't stop a bunch of stupid politicians from trying anyway.

bwiese
06-06-2012, 4:28 PM
I'm pretty sure Jerry the Attorney General was the reason we're not all shooting microstampified pistols today.

Yup.
Esp. when you consider who the Deputy AG was at the time.

hoffmang
06-06-2012, 8:30 PM
The core patents remain in full effect :43:

-Gene

oni.dori
06-06-2012, 11:21 PM
this microstamping issue is a dream of international organisations ,the same international organisation that has already labeled cases of ammo with the #0012 .

Our rkba will be under attack as long as we elect those who pay tribute to international law .
Ive got my tin foil hat on so feel free to pile on and ridicule this post .

#0012? I have not heard this one yet.

Ub3rD0rk
06-06-2012, 11:44 PM
I believe the law states that if an individual uses a microstamped revolver during the commission of a crime, he must remove the stamped cases from the cylinder and leave them at the crime scene. Not leaving them at the crime scene would result in a stern talking to if caught and convicted through other evidence.

ClarenceBoddicker
06-07-2012, 2:03 AM
Old idea & tech. The Lawgiver has been around since the late 1970's.

JL99325
06-07-2012, 9:06 AM
Thanks Gene, good to hear. I still hope it doesn't pass in NY though. Anything we can do to help them stop microstamping?

winnre
06-07-2012, 9:09 AM
So if microstamping comes about them I take it we cannot buy firing pins or replacement barrels with ease.

robcoe
06-07-2012, 9:33 AM
Something I have always wondered about micro stamping, how can they tell if the round was from the casing they found?

the difference in diameter between a .38 special/357 magnum and a 9mm is only 2 thousandths of an inch, seems like any criminal with 2 brain cells would go to somewhere people shoot, grab some used brass off the ground, then use a revolver and drop the 9mm brass. Given how mangled bullets get when they hit things(not to mention the force of being fired) I doubt it would be even possible to tell the difference between a .357 and a .355 dia bullet.

And speaking of reloads, if a round is reloaded which micro stamp do you believe, I have some brass I have fired 5 times or more, are all those people going to be arrested?

winnre
06-07-2012, 9:51 AM
Sweep up the brass at a gun range.
Commit your crime.
Toss all the brass in the area as evidence.

liketoshoot
06-07-2012, 9:53 AM
IIRC the hold up is that the california law requires more than one company to hold the patent, I dont see how a NY law would trump that.

one word Bloomberg, G-D of NY

robcoe
06-07-2012, 9:59 AM
one word Bloomberg, G-D of NY

That still doesn't explain how a New York state law would rewrite a California state law.

Bloomberg might be able to do anything he wants in New York, but he has no authority here.

Librarian
06-07-2012, 12:13 PM
All the technical objections being mentioned here were communicated to the Legislature when the microstamping bill was presented.

Don't bother; they don't care, because as I continue to remind, gun bills in CA are not about guns. They're about appearing to do something about some public-perceived problem while at the same time not actually offending any constituent groups who might support that member's reelection.

bwiese
06-07-2012, 5:23 PM
The core patents remain in full effect :43:

-Gene


What Gene's really trying to say is that we'll probably have something quite funny to say about this in the near future.

bwiese
06-07-2012, 5:26 PM
Sweep up the brass at a gun range.
Commit your crime.
Toss all the brass in the area as evidence.


Many of you may not know that there is internal tension at CA DOJ between the BoF (Firearms Bureau) and the professional firearm specialists in the wholly separate forensics/evidentary group.

The first group is a political group, while the latter is pure law enforcement evidence group. These two groups have been at odds before, and in fact the 'marked brass swept up and deposited somewhere else' is indeed a known problem worried about by the evidentiary group.

donw
06-08-2012, 6:52 AM
My understanding was there was no limitations in the law that pretender you from legally being able to swap out the barrel & firing pin in the first place.

they will simply pass more legislation saying a licensed gunsmith must replace the firing pin and register it with the DOJ.

insofar as altering the firing pin with your dremel...it will become a felony to do so.

legislatures, on all levels, will continue to pass laws, no matter how ludicrous; it's about CONTROL...

ja308
06-08-2012, 1:08 PM
#0012? I have not heard this one yet.

Look at any case of ammo ,you will see a circle with un0012 on it somewhere .
Surprising this applies to domestically manufactured ammo too .
possibly someone can take a pic and post it here.

joefreas
06-08-2012, 1:13 PM
Maybe they could make milk from something other than cows, like beans or nuts or something...

donw
06-08-2012, 3:02 PM
Maybe they could make milk from something other than cows, like beans or nuts or something...

they do...

i just finished off a half gallon of almond milk; made from almonds.

very tasty and nutritious

Wherryj
06-08-2012, 3:11 PM
Call me a bad gunowner, or just new. But this is the first time i've heard of this. Looked it up on Wikipedia and it specifically said LEO's are exempt from the law??

How does that make sense???

Why did the legislators exempt LEOs from the law? They generate most of their gun laws by watching Hollywood movies. Haven't they seen Magnum Force? The COPS were the killers!

donw
06-08-2012, 4:05 PM
Call me a bad gunowner, or just new. But this is the first time i've heard of this. Looked it up on Wikipedia and it specifically said LEO's are exempt from the law??

How does that make sense???

when does California state legislature EVER make sense?

:rolleyes::sleeping::cool:

ALSystems
06-08-2012, 4:59 PM
The core patents remain in full effect :43:

-Gene
No Patent lasts forever.

What happens to the existing California Microstamping law when the patent finally expires? Any idea what year that will be?

tlcwrites
06-08-2012, 5:37 PM
What happens to the existing California Microstamping law when the patent finally expires? Any idea what year that will be?

From what I can tell, the patents expire in 2023. Whether there's enough profit possible from this technology to make it attractive for a second company to enter the market would be an interesting question to answer.

donw
06-08-2012, 6:19 PM
All the technical objections being mentioned here were communicated to the Legislature when the microstamping bill was presented.

Don't bother; they don't care, because as I continue to remind, gun bills in CA are not about guns. They're about appearing to do something about some public-perceived problem while at the same time not actually offending any constituent groups who might support that member's reelection.

bold emphasis is mine...

well said...

hoffmang
06-08-2012, 6:22 PM
No Patent lasts forever.

What happens to the existing California Microstamping law when the patent finally expires? Any idea what year that will be?

Peņa will be decided far before a patent expires.

-Gene

scrat
06-08-2012, 8:14 PM
Shoot if this went in effect in CA i for see a record setting amount of gun sales in california prior to the law going in effect. Gun dealers wouldnt even be able to keep the shelves stocked. More small arms sales would surpass the amount of weapons used in ww2

oni.dori
06-09-2012, 7:20 PM
they will simply pass more legislation saying a licensed gunsmith must replace the firing pin and register it with the DOJ.

insofar as altering the firing pin with your dremel...it will become a felony to do so.

legislatures, on all levels, will continue to pass laws, no matter how ludicrous; it's about CONTROL...

Yes, I realize that. However, as it stands, there is no such requirement.

oni.dori
06-09-2012, 7:20 PM
Look at any case of ammo ,you will see a circle with un0012 on it somewhere .
Surprising this applies to domestically manufactured ammo too .
possibly someone can take a pic and post it here.

Never seen that before. I'm going to have to go look again.

Librarian
06-09-2012, 8:23 PM
Look at any case of ammo ,you will see a circle with un0012 on it somewhere .
Surprising this applies to domestically manufactured ammo too .
possibly someone can take a pic and post it here.

I don't see the '0012' part, but the doc here - http://issuu.com/tdgrregs/docs/g12_packaging - explains the markings

"(UN) 4G/Y26.7/S/11"

"U", "N" in a circle - packaging has been UN tested and certified

Next 2 char, kind of package, e.g. "4G" - fiberboard box

/

A letter, packaging group, e.g. "Y" - packaging group 2, medium level of danger

Numbers, e.g. '26.7' - mass in kg

/

a letter, e.g. "S" - solids

/

2 numbers, e.g. "11" - last 2 digits of year of manufacture


All examples from a case of Federal small arms ammo.

donw
06-10-2012, 9:13 AM
Yes, I realize that. However, as it stands, there is no such requirement.

yet...

as an example: i'm truly amazed that the California legislature has not done something to negate the BB...with practice and proper use of a "Tool", the mag of a BB operated AR mag, can be dropped nearly as quickly as a 'normal' mag release operated AR during a mag change.

it was a stroke of genius and design engineering that brought about the BB in response to the California laws and don't think they were happy about it.

my point is: if the micro-stamping DOES become active, i'm certain they will try to thwart ways to get around it by such legislation.

JMO...;):)

SilverTauron
06-10-2012, 9:36 AM
How do these guys plan on enforcing the microstamping law? Crusing around the range for illegally configured semi-auto rifles is easily accomplished;but how can the police determine that a firearm has a legal firing pin without shooting it?

Are LEOs going to be canvassing ranges asking customers to,if you would good please, shoot their weapons so as to inspect the casing that comes out? How will they know at a traffic stop whether or not a firearm is in compliance? Will a certified gunsmith be riding shotgun to disassemble the owner's piece during the "E" check ?

Perhaps more sinister, will the police invoke some clause to the effect of "we need your gun for 48 hours to test compliance with the microstamping section" afterwards the owner has to go through the LEGER process for return?

donw
06-10-2012, 9:46 AM
How do these guys plan on enforcing the microstamping law? Crusing around the range for illegally configured semi-auto rifles is easily accomplished;but how can the police determine that a firearm has a legal firing pin without shooting it?

Are LEOs going to be canvassing ranges asking customers to,if you would good please, shoot their weapons so as to inspect the casing that comes out? How will they know at a traffic stop whether or not a firearm is in compliance? Will a certified gunsmith be riding shotgun to disassemble the owner's piece during the "E" check ?

Perhaps more sinister, will the police invoke some clause to the effect of "we need your gun for 48 hours to test compliance with the microstamping section" afterwards the owner has to go through the LEGER process for return?

by way of serial number of the pistol being required to have the DATE of manufacture encoded or roll stamped in the frame.

it could become quite a quagmire of requirements and solutions if it ever does become effective.

another useless bit of legislation from California legislature

SilverTauron
06-10-2012, 9:54 AM
by way of serial number of the pistol being required to have the DATE of manufacture encoded or roll stamped in the frame.

it could become quite a quagmire of requirements and solutions if it ever does become effective.



Here's the catch:how do the authorities know you didn't change the firing pin in your basement on that serialized pistol?



another useless bit of legislation from California legislature

I disagree. Its usefulness must be evaluated from the viewpoint of the disarmament lobby. As soon as a crook commits a violent crime using a gun with an illicit firing pin or striker, the race will be on to see who can come up with a worse way to infringe on gun owners. How can we keep the kids safe if the police CAN'T hold a citizens' handguns to ensure they're in compliance?

Thus this conversation may be taking place after enactment of the microstamping law:

"Ill just give you a warning for that tailight,but your handguns will be held by (INSERT CA POLICE AGENCY HERE) for 14 days pending a ballistics test to ensure compliance with the microstamping statutes.Please file a release form with the DOJ after the tests are concluded. Thank you for your cooperation".

Demonicspire
06-10-2012, 10:06 AM
Would the stamping even work if you used say, steel cases? The firing pin material would have to be harder than the case material.

sfbadger
06-10-2012, 10:29 AM
Would the stamping even work if you used say, steel cases? The firing pin material would have to be harder than the case material.

The micro-stamping is on the primer, not the case.

Demonicspire
06-10-2012, 10:51 AM
The micro-stamping is on the primer, not the case.
Ah right, that makes more sense anyway given that's where the pin strikes, still, just pick up your brass, or better yet not shoot anyone. It sounds pretty expensive and easy to circumvent. this would be even easier to conceal than a defaced serial number because well... its tiny and inside the gun. But as someone else commented before, this sounds like a typical CA gun control law.

donw
06-10-2012, 1:59 PM
Here's the catch:how do the authorities know you didn't change the firing pin in your basement on that serialized pistol?

they won't...until there is a reason to verify.

if they find it altered...they don't care who did it or where and how they did it, the registered owner will be held responsible.




I disagree. Its usefulness must be evaluated from the viewpoint of the disarmament lobby. As soon as a crook commits a violent crime using a gun with an illicit firing pin or striker, the race will be on to see who can come up with a worse way to infringe on gun owners. How can we keep the kids safe if the police CAN'T hold a citizens' handguns to ensure they're in compliance?

Thus this conversation may be taking place after enactment of the microstamping law:

"Ill just give you a warning for that tailight,but your handguns will be held by (INSERT CA POLICE AGENCY HERE) for 14 days pending a ballistics test to ensure compliance with the microstamping statutes.Please file a release form with the DOJ after the tests are concluded. Thank you for your cooperation".

(bold is my entry)

good point...right now all we're doing is hypothesizing, but, IMO, it's good to discuss, and debate, for future possibilities.

IMO, we are in the beginning stages of a police state...can we head off a full blown police state? :confused:

Librarian
06-10-2012, 2:38 PM
Folks, I hope you realize this is all old ground - everything brought up in this thread was shared with the legislators in committees and the entirety of each house in 2003.

sfbadger
06-10-2012, 3:27 PM
Just wondering, did this vast pool of wisdom presented to the CA Legislators enlighten them at all? I guess I can assume it did since it's gone nowhere.

chris
06-10-2012, 3:38 PM
Who the hell came up with these laws? Did they even ask experts (as in anyone who knows a damn thing about guns at all) if it was feasible, or were they just smoking pot at a Phish concert when they were like "Hey, you know what would be a good idea..."

Again, please don't think California gun laws have anything to do with guns.

Bills always have more to do with getting re-elected. Technical merit is far less interesting to the politicians. We know; we've told them repeatedly; they don't change.

and they never will change.

Just wondering, did this vast pool of wisdom presented to the CA Legislators enlighten them at all?

the same wisdom that brought us the finacial disaster we are in. it's called the california voter.

oni.dori
06-10-2012, 7:52 PM
I don't see the '0012' part, but the doc here - http://issuu.com/tdgrregs/docs/g12_packaging - explains the markings

"(UN) 4G/Y26.7/S/11"

"U", "N" in a circle - packaging has been UN tested and certified

Next 2 char, kind of package, e.g. "4G" - fiberboard box

/

A letter, packaging group, e.g. "Y" - packaging group 2, medium level of danger

Numbers, e.g. '26.7' - mass in kg

/

a letter, e.g. "S" - solids

/

2 numbers, e.g. "11" - last 2 digits of year of manufacture


All examples from a case of Federal small arms ammo.

Is that the same as the circle with the cross through it on all the Federal an Lake City mil-surp 5.56 cases?

yet...

as an example: i'm truly amazed that the California legislature has not done something to negate the BB...with practice and proper use of a "Tool", the mag of a BB operated AR mag, can be dropped nearly as quickly as a 'normal' mag release operated AR during a mag change.

it was a stroke of genius and design engineering that brought about the BB in response to the California laws and don't think they were happy about it.

my point is: if the micro-stamping DOES become active, i'm certain they will try to thwart ways to get around it by such legislation.

JMO...;):)

Only because less-than-foresighted people flagrantly flaunt and throw such thingsin our "opposition's" face that cause those situations (UPC is a pretty solid example of this). However, I have yet to really see someone that is able to do it with a BB'd rifle (even HIGHLY trained military personnel).

How do these guys plan on enforcing the microstamping law? Crusing around the range for illegally configured semi-auto rifles is easily accomplished;but how can the police determine that a firearm has a legal firing pin without shooting it?

Are LEOs going to be canvassing ranges asking customers to,if you would good please, shoot their weapons so as to inspect the casing that comes out? How will they know at a traffic stop whether or not a firearm is in compliance? Will a certified gunsmith be riding shotgun to disassemble the owner's piece during the "E" check ?

Perhaps more sinister, will the police invoke some clause to the effect of "we need your gun for 48 hours to test compliance with the microstamping section" afterwards the owner has to go through the LEGER process for return?

The only feasible way would be to confiscate/impound your firearm, fire rounds through it, then check under a microscope (hence, MICROstamping).

The micro-stamping is on the primer, not the case.

My understanding is that it was also supposed to be on the wall of te chamber, so that it was stamped in to the side of the casing as it expands upon firing.

Librarian
06-10-2012, 9:12 PM
The UN in a circle is http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/images/tdg-eng/unmark.png