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Chontkleer
06-05-2012, 7:52 PM
Have a 700P, 26" heavy barrel, all factory everything.

Would like to continue to shoot precision tactical competitions with it, but I've really got to get the weight down for shooting standing and kneeling. Bunch of questions:

1) How much weight will I shave off by cutting 6 inches off the barrel?
2) I want to attach a muzzle brake but a) are there any that get don't produce even more muzzle flash? b) Can a brake and target crown co-exist? Will I lose significant accuracy if I can't have target crown? (Would love to keep shooting very accurately out to 800 yards)
3) Trigger pull 'feels' like 5-6 pounds. I would like to get it to 2 lbs. Can the factory trigger be adjusted down or should I invest in Timney?
4) The stock is ok, but just doesn't feel as comfortable as an asics or McMillan, especially since can't adjust length of pull and there's no built-in cheekpiece (have strap-on cheekpiece in the meantime). I think that a lighter stock would be great... are there any that really stand out in that regard?

2nd Shot
06-05-2012, 8:05 PM
I have an SPS-Tactical, which is the same rifle, but with a 20" heavy barrel. With an HS Precision stock taken from the 700 5R, it's still nearly twice as heavy (12+ lbs) as my buddies synthetic stocked '06 Savage hunting rifle. The furthest I could adjust the factory X-Mark Pro trigger was a measured 4 lbs. It gets it done, but I may invest in a Jewell or Timney later on. I wouldn't tinker with the XM-P, though obviously the older triggers can be tuned as much as you want by a competent gunsmith. The factory 700P stock is an HS Precision or a B&C right? You probably won't gain much more accuracy going to a higher end stock, vs the difference from non bedded stocks. Whether it's worth the added ergonomics or not is up to you.

Chontkleer
06-05-2012, 8:12 PM
Yes, HS Precision.

thepro8
06-05-2012, 8:16 PM
I have the Sps tactical too. I recommend investing in optics and reloading equipment.

Chontkleer
06-05-2012, 8:20 PM
I have the Sps tactical too. I recommend investing in optics and reloading equipment.

Optics I've got. Reloading equipment is in the works.

You have 26" barrel? Standing/kneeling, the thing is just way too heavy to shoot accurately.

707electrician
06-05-2012, 8:24 PM
Have a 700P, 26" heavy barrel, all factory everything.

Would like to continue to shoot precision tactical competitions with it, but I've really got to get the weight down for shooting standing and kneeling. Bunch of questions:

1) How much weight will I shave off by cutting 6 inches off the barrel?
2) I want to attach a muzzle brake but a) are there any that get don't produce even more muzzle flash? b) Can a brake and target crown co-exist? Will I lose significant accuracy if I can't have target crown? (Would love to keep shooting very accurately out to 800 yards)
3) Trigger pull 'feels' like 5-6 pounds. I would like to get it to 2 lbs. Can the factory trigger be adjusted down or should I invest in Timney?
4) The stock is ok, but just doesn't feel as comfortable as an asics or McMillan, especially since can't adjust length of pull and there's no built-in cheekpiece (have strap-on cheekpiece in the meantime). I think that a lighter stock would be great... are there any that really stand out in that regard?

1- 6 inches will make a noticeable difference in the weight and balance of the gun but will bite you in the butt at long range
2- You can have a brake and a target crown and the brake shouldn't affect accuracy
3- Don't bother tinkering with the factory trigger, get a timney or jewell
4- There are many light-weight, ergonomic stock options out there

CK_32
06-05-2012, 8:43 PM
Importance to me in this order IMO..

Scope (What ever you can afford)
Bipod (Harris or atlas)
Stock (Mcmillan a5)
Trigger (jewel)
Better scope (NF,USO,Permier)
Barrel (Custom krager 11.5 twist)

Gofasterdammit
06-05-2012, 9:34 PM
Don't waste money on that barrel. Get a Bartlein 5R, finished at 22 or 24", chambered by a reputable builder. Pair that with a blue printed 700 action and a good chassis or bedded stock and you'll be good to go.

slappomatt
06-05-2012, 9:48 PM
1. 6" off the stock barrel should be right around 1lb.
2. What flash??! you shoot .308 at night?
3. Not sure about the current trigger, older triggers could be tuned down to a nice 3lbs
4. have your wallet ready. getting any decent target stock will set you back 400-1000 easy.

Chontkleer
06-05-2012, 10:25 PM
1. 6" off the stock barrel should be right around 1lb.
2. What flash??! you shoot .308 at night?
3. Not sure about the current trigger, older triggers could be tuned down to a nice 3lbs
4. have your wallet ready. getting any decent target stock will set you back 400-1000 easy.

I was hoping more around 2lbs.... if the stock barrel is 8 pounds and it weights 1/3rd lb per inch, but then again it tapers.

Woops, typed flash instead of blast. Don't want to blast people shooting next to me.

I've had the rifle for about 8 years... will have to investigate the trigger further.

Cost is definitely a concern, so I think I'll stay with the current stock, build up the cheek rest, chop down the barrel, add the brake, adjust the trigger if possible, get a sling, a decent mat (camping mat isn't cutting it... too bouncy)

Chontkleer
06-05-2012, 10:30 PM
Don't waste money on that barrel. Get a Bartlein 5R, finished at 22 or 24", chambered by a reputable builder. Pair that with a blue printed 700 action and a good chassis or bedded stock and you'll be good to go.

It shoots .5 moa or better now. You think the fabled Bartlein 5R barrel will improve that?

G-forceJunkie
06-05-2012, 11:24 PM
What long rang comps are you shooting? Around here, nobody runs a 20" barrel because we want the velocity. Note that most long range high power records are set with 26-30" barrels. Its your technique, not the barrel holding you back. Look at this picture (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33302087@N04/6911485670/), thats about a 6" group at 200 yard group, standing, with a 2 1/2 foot barrel. The lighter you make your rifle, the harder it is going to be be to shoot in most positions. Its going to recoil more, its going to move around more. Most comp rifles are 16-18 pounds.

Have a 700P, 26" heavy barrel, all factory everything.

Would like to continue to shoot precision tactical competitions with it, but I've really got to get the weight down for shooting standing and kneeling. Bunch of questions:

1) How much weight will I shave off by cutting 6 inches off the barrel?
Don't know, but I suggest you not cut it.

2) I want to attach a muzzle brake but a) are there any that get don't produce even more muzzle flash? b) Can a brake and target crown co-exist? Will I lose significant accuracy if I can't have target crown? (Would love to keep shooting very accurately out to 800 yards)

An 11 degree target crown is sort of a waste in a brake. The point of an 11 degree crown is it is supposed to mimic the angle the gases excape around the base of the bullet as it leaves the barrel. A brake instead funnels this blast of gas forward in a contained chamber. As long as the crown is done accurately, its not going to matter. What matters more is that the threads and brake is installed perfectaly aligned to the bore.

3) Trigger pull 'feels' like 5-6 pounds. I would like to get it to 2 lbs. Can the factory trigger be adjusted down or should I invest in Timney?

Get the Timney. Your remington trigger may be old enough that it can be adjusted by a competent gunsmith to 3 pounds or so. If its a newer X Mark trigger, throw it in the trash.


4) The stock is ok, but just doesn't feel as comfortable as an asics or McMillan, especially since can't adjust length of pull and there's no built-in cheekpiece (have strap-on cheekpiece in the meantime). I think that a lighter stock would be great... are there any that really stand out in that regard?

You can adjust the length of pull by putting spacers behind the butt pad. Stock packs to raise the cheekpiece work fine. Most tac comp shooters want their stocks heavier, not lighter. Finding a stock that fits you is like buying clothes or shoes, try on as many as you can get behind before making any decisions.

Capita159
06-05-2012, 11:57 PM
At op:
You should just shoot the hell out of that gun and leave it alone. I was in the same position as you seven years ago with the same rifle "700P". It shot >0.65" groups with 3 shots at 100 yards from the gecko. And then the modifications came, a lot of silly "unnecessary" modifications that was a waste of money. It looks pretty and all. End up selling it for $850.00 to fund the rifle I should've bought in the first place :confused:

My old 700P weighted 12lbs. with the barrel chop to 22". That was a little on the light side. I have a 15lbs AR-308, that thing doesn't move when I shoot it prone, knee, or stand.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5285/5207752709_f40070a45a_b.jpg

Chontkleer
06-06-2012, 1:18 AM
What long rang comps are you shooting? Around here, nobody runs a 20" barrel because we want the velocity. Note that most long range high power records are set with 26-30" barrels. Its your technique, not the barrel holding you back. Look at this picture (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33302087@N04/6911485670/), thats about a 6" group at 200 yard group, standing, with a 2 1/2 foot barrel. The lighter you make your rifle, the harder it is going to be be to shoot in most positions. Its going to recoil more, its going to move around more. Most comp rifles are 16-18 pounds.


Don't know, but I suggest you not cut it.


An 11 degree target crown is sort of a waste in a brake. The point of an 11 degree crown is it is supposed to mimic the angle the gases excape around the base of the bullet as it leaves the barrel. A brake instead funnels this blast of gas forward in a contained chamber. As long as the crown is done accurately, its not going to matter. What matters more is that the threads and brake is installed perfectaly aligned to the bore.


Get the Timney. Your remington trigger may be old enough that it can be adjusted by a competent gunsmith to 3 pounds or so. If its a newer X Mark trigger, throw it in the trash.


You can adjust the length of pull by putting spacers behind the butt pad. Stock packs to raise the cheekpiece work fine. Most tac comp shooters want their stocks heavier, not lighter. Finding a stock that fits you is like buying clothes or shoes, try on as many as you can get behind before making any decisions.

Haven't shot anything long range yet in competition yet. 1st competition was 25-300 yards:

http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3849

I was only one of two shooters that nailed the 5th stage. Unfortunately that was only at 25 yards.

I can hit the 600 yard targets all day long at Angeles, prone, but what I noticed at the competition is that standing or kneeling, trying to hit at 200 was just a joke. Maybe it's upper body strength or technique, or not using a sling.

Stock pack: Yeah, the one I got has extra velcro so I can build it up from the inside which is nice.

Crown/brake: so you think cut just thread it and put brake on? Recommend the best brake? Even if it reduced felt recoil 10-20% it has to improve the shooting by reducing the flinch-factor.

Trigger, check. Will have gunsmith make the call. Thanks.

Chontkleer
06-06-2012, 1:20 AM
At op:
You should just shoot the hell out of that gun and leave it alone. I was in the same position as you seven years ago with the same rifle "700P". It shot >0.65" groups with 3 shots at 100 yards from the gecko. And then the modifications came, a lot of silly "unnecessary" modifications that was a waste of money. It looks pretty and all. End up selling it for $850.00 to fund the rifle I should've bought in the first place :confused:

My old 700P weighted 12lbs. with the barrel chop to 22". That was a little on the light side. I have a 15lbs AR-308, that thing doesn't move when I shoot it prone, knee, or stand.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5285/5207752709_f40070a45a_b.jpg

Definitely don't want silly/ineffective. I've seen you shoot, and definitely take your word that heavier is better (as long as it's not so heavy that it's hard to actually hold the sights on the target)

P.W.
06-06-2012, 1:55 AM
I'd vote to chop the Barrel to 18" and my reasoning is based of off personal experience as it does not affect the accuracy of your weapon and or range as most people think. Here is some light reading to back up this rationale.
http://www.sniperschool.com/sniper-rifle-barrel-length/
http://forums.sniperschool.com/barrel-length-revisited

As far as squeezing the most out of your stick when it comes to accuracy I would put the list in this order:
1. Barrel (18 or 20" with a Good Crown)
2. Stock (Bedded and allows the barrel to be free floating)
3. Trigger (2.5-3lb Range)
4. Glass (Get the best glass you can afford)
5. Ammo (Buy/use quality ammo and or get a recipe loaded up that shoots)

Capita159
06-06-2012, 8:05 AM
Definitely don't want silly/ineffective. I've seen you shoot, and definitely take your word that heavier is better (as long as it's not so heavy that it's hard to actually hold the sights on the target)

Holy moly, how can I miss your user name :o ???
I had problems shooting and holding my old 26" 700 standing, because it was front heavy. And also my left arm is a little weak. It's easier to shoot a heavy rifle as long as it's balance correctly for the shooter. 14lbs on a 20" heavy barrel or 24" fluted barrel is my perfect weight.

If you cut 6" off your barrel, you'll probably shave off about 1lbs.

AM9000
06-06-2012, 8:17 AM
I chopped my PSS down from 26" to 22". The actual amount of weight that was chopped, I dont know, but the main benefit is that it shifts the balance back towards the shooter, instead of having it weighed down towards the muzzle. Very effective mod. The rifle feels much better all around.

As far as the target crown and muzzle device- Get in touch with Randy at RD Precision.

In regards to your stock, not many stocks worth a damn are going to be lighter weight than the HS Precision.

RuggedJay
06-06-2012, 9:04 AM
22"-20" is fine and will reduce weigh up front. Out to about 600yds the reduce MV wont matter much. Practicing is also a good idea. Now if you want to shoot past 600 then I would reccomend another caliber(.260/.243/etc.) Are there any ranges in SoCal that are over 600?

DirtRacer151
06-06-2012, 9:18 AM
Optics I've got. Reloading equipment is in the works.

You have 26" barrel? Standing/kneeling, the thing is just way too heavy to shoot accurately.

You need more practice with a sling. I shoot my 18# rifle standing, kneeling, unsupported prone all the time.

Don't chop the barrel as a crutch. You're still gonna suck at those positions until you practice.

Buy a Timney. I have 5 of them

DirtRacer151
06-06-2012, 9:21 AM
It shoots .5 moa or better now. You think the fabled Bartlein 5R barrel will improve that?

Bartlein barrels are the best. You will not find another more quality barrel maker. Your factory barrel is junk compared to a well built/hand lapped stainless barrel.

707electrician
06-06-2012, 9:22 AM
I'd vote to chop the Barrel to 18" and my reasoning is based of off personal experience as it does not affect the accuracy of your weapon and or range as most people think. Here is some light reading to back up this rationale.
http://www.sniperschool.com/sniper-rifle-barrel-length/
http://forums.sniperschool.com/barrel-length-revisited

As far as squeezing the most out of your stick when it comes to accuracy I would put the list in this order:
1. Barrel (18 or 20" with a Good Crown)
2. Stock (Bedded and allows the barrel to be free floating)
3. Trigger (2.5-3lb Range)
4. Glass (Get the best glass you can afford)
5. Ammo (Buy/use quality ammo and or get a recipe loaded up that shoots)

Shoot an 18-22" barrel at 1000 yards and tell me it doesn't affect accuracy. At short to medium range it will be fine but not at long range

DirtRacer151
06-06-2012, 9:25 AM
Shoot an 18-22" barrel at 1000 yards and tell me it doesn't affect accuracy. At short to medium range it will be fine but not at long range


But 18"-20" is so much better for those CQB scenarios :D

james758
06-06-2012, 9:30 AM
Changing the stock is a good idea, but here is something to consider.
You want something that is going to have an adjustable cheek peice.
If you get a Mcmillan stock, you are going to have to also buy the bottom metal and do some trimming and some glass bedding, which you COULD do yourself, but you are best to leave that work to someone who does it for a living. So a super stock with the hardware, and installed will cost about the same as one of those chassis systems that free float the barreel (most of them) and can by installed by YOU if you have a torque wrench and the right allen sockets.
So, if it were me, I would (and did) get the AICS. worth the money. But it did require a little trimming to get the Jewell trigger to fit in it. The AICS was kinda made to just drop a stock 700 into it.

707electrician
06-06-2012, 9:32 AM
But 18"-20" is so much better for those CQB scenarios :D

And with an 18" you can practically put it in a holster

redcliff
06-06-2012, 9:57 AM
Maybe it's upper body strength or technique, or not using a sling.


Your main problem in bold imho. A good trigger wouldn't hurt either. If you're shooting .5moa now with your barrel I'd leave it alone until you wear it out.

Gear will not replace skill. Practice with a sling.

Chontkleer
06-06-2012, 10:06 AM
22"-20" is fine and will reduce weigh up front. Out to about 600yds the reduce MV wont matter much. Practicing is also a good idea. Now if you want to shoot past 600 then I would reccomend another caliber(.260/.243/etc.) Are there any ranges in SoCal that are over 600?

There's one that I know of but they shoot from a pad that sits behind the other line so it can only happen if there aren't other shooters out there. Long Range is a desert sport here for the most part.

Chontkleer
06-06-2012, 10:29 AM
Great info here. Thanks to all. 264Charlie and RkSimple, if you're lurking, please weigh in to if you've got anything to add/correct.

t0kie
06-06-2012, 10:31 AM
Your main problem in bold imho. A good trigger wouldn't hurt either. If you're shooting .5moa now with your barrel I'd leave it alone until you wear it out.

Gear will not replace skill. Practice with a sling.

+1 on this. Practice more & then you'll know exactly what you need. It is a progress...

Legasat
06-06-2012, 10:34 AM
I have shot my 700P LTR 20" out to about 800yds at Pala. Seems fine to me. Accuracy is around .5 MOA (probably better with a better shooter). Chopping 6" off will cost you around 250fps or a little more in velocity. You will have to decide whether or not it is worth it.

RugerNo1
06-06-2012, 10:44 AM
Practice makes permanent. So, get with some of the local Practical Precision shooters in your area and learn the proper way to use a good sling (T.A.B. or T.I.S are top choices), practice with that sling, learn to make or buy consistant ammo, and install a Timney.

And, repeat your post on CAPRC.com (http://www.caprc.com/forums/index.php) for some more info that will come from actual Practical Precision competitors. Moreover, get in touch with Rksimple, 264Charlie, and Dirtracer as they seem to know what they are doing as well. ;)

DirtRacer151
06-06-2012, 10:44 AM
Great info here. Thanks to all. 264Charlie and RkSimple, if you're lurking, please weigh in to if you've got anything to add/correct.

They're in Honduras for the week

CS Sports
06-06-2012, 10:59 AM
1) How much weight will I shave off by cutting 6 inches off the barrel?

Between 10 and 15oz depending on the specific barrel contour. Don't listen to the nay-sayers who say you will kill the long range performance if you cut the barrel. Anyone who makes such a claim hasn't done the research, as 20" will easily get a 308 (or similar chambering) past 1000 yards.


2) I want to attach a muzzle brake but a) are there any that get don't produce even more muzzle flash? NO b) Can a brake and target crown co-exist? YES Will I lose significant accuracy if I can't have target crown? The key is a GOOD crown, shape is irrelevant (Would love to keep shooting very accurately out to 800 yards)



3) Trigger pull 'feels' like 5-6 pounds. I would like to get it to 2 lbs. Can the factory trigger be adjusted down or should I invest in Timney?

Maybe, maybe not. Some Remington triggers can be quite good.


4) The stock is ok, but just doesn't feel as comfortable as an asics or McMillan, especially since can't adjust length of pull and there's no built-in cheekpiece (have strap-on cheekpiece in the meantime). I think that a lighter stock would be great... are there any that really stand out in that regard?

Pick your poison, but keep in mind that slapping a light weight stock on a heavy barreled rifle will result in a nose heavy pig that will balance like crap.

Gofasterdammit
06-06-2012, 11:16 AM
It shoots .5 moa or better now. You think the fabled Bartlein 5R barrel will improve that?

There is a reason why it takes 6 to 8 months to get a Bartlein. All of mine shoot .25 MOA or less to 1,000 yards.

RugerNo1
06-06-2012, 11:28 AM
Between 10 and 15oz depending on the specific barrel contour. Don't listen to the nay-sayers who say you will kill the long range performance if you cut the barrel. Anyone who makes such a claim hasn't done the research, as 20" will easily get a 308 (or similar chambering) past 1000 yards.


Well then, lets see your research that proves the contrary. Those nay-sayers are experienced shooters, whose experience is based on shooting across the nation, have put more rounds down range in one month than most do in a year. We are not talking about "making hits". We are talking about consistant performance over multiple scenarios and Density Altitudes (DA). Actual data from real shooters (who are not affiliated with tacticool training DVDs) shows that the longer barrels do, in fact, perform better at long range over a more broad range of locations/DAs.

P.S.
In before Lowlight's supressed 18" at 1000 yards video.

707electrician
06-06-2012, 11:36 AM
Between 10 and 15oz depending on the specific barrel contour. Don't listen to the nay-sayers who say you will kill the long range performance if you cut the barrel. Anyone who makes such a claim hasn't done the research, as 20" will easily get a 308 (or similar chambering) past 1000 yards.

Sure a 20" will get a .308 out to 1000 yards but it doesn't get it there very well. I seldom see people shooting short barreled .308's in the 1000 yard matches and those that do are the ones scoring well.

Before I chambered my 700 for .260 I had the barrel cut to 22" and while it shot well up to about 800 yards, 900 and 1000 were a struggle for it and shots would be all over the target. So yes, the shots made it to the target, but as the bullet goes transonic its going to start wobbling out of control and it is not going to be accurate.

There is a reason that the guys that shoot palma and setting national records are using 26-30" barrels

DirtRacer151
06-06-2012, 12:09 PM
Don't listen to the nay-sayers who say you will kill the long range performance if you cut the barrel. Anyone who makes such a claim hasn't done the research, as 20" will easily get a 308 (or similar chambering) past 1000 yards.




Would love to see your research.

I don't look up stuff on the internet. I actually go out and try for myself. While an 18" barrel has its place for hunting, police snipers, and wannabe tactical ninjas.. the truth is for target shooting a longer barrel is almost always better.

The savings in weight and maneuverability you gain by chopping the barrel does not make up for the loss of performance you gain down range. Hunters usually take ethical shots inside 500yds and PD snipers rarely shoot past 100.

Nobody ever said an 18" barrel wouldn't make it to 1000 (hell my 16" 308 LMT makes it to 1K) We're just saying the benefits don't out weight what you loose down range for the average target shooter. A 22"+ barrel will really help when you're trying to keep them in the X ring 1000yds away.

But i'll bet you think it looks cool anyway ;)

Chontkleer
06-06-2012, 12:19 PM
Between 10 and 15oz depending on the specific barrel contour. Don't listen to the nay-sayers who say you will kill the long range performance if you cut the barrel. Anyone who makes such a claim hasn't done the research, as 20" will easily get a 308 (or similar chambering) past 1000 yards.






Maybe, maybe not. Some Remington triggers can be quite good.



Pick your poison, but keep in mind that slapping a light weight stock on a heavy barreled rifle will result in a nose heavy pig that will balance like crap.

Capita mentioned it too. That's the key: balance.

Chontkleer
06-06-2012, 12:21 PM
There is a reason why it takes 6 to 8 months to get a Bartlein. All of mine shoot .25 MOA or less to 1,000 yards.

Heard nothing but good things about Bartlein barrels, but are you sure it's the barrel itself? Can't get similar performance from less expensive barrels as long as action is trued, parts mated to a t, etc?

Cypriss32
06-06-2012, 12:22 PM
Heavier isnt better...... You can run light palma barrel instead of a damm truck axle. OR a carbin wrapped barrel and they will be just as accurate. Buy a nice stock, Manners or MCM. BUT be ready for a long *** wait. Also looking into the new bushnell HDMR or NF scopes.

Cypriss32
06-06-2012, 12:23 PM
There are ALOT of barrels ready for shipment RIGHT NOW.......... Just gotta A) know people B) know WERE to look............

Gofasterdammit
06-06-2012, 12:28 PM
Heard nothing but good things about Bartlein barrels, but are you sure it's the barrel itself? Can't get similar performance from less expensive barrels as long as action is trued, parts mated to a t, etc?

Everyone has their preference. 90% of the guys I shoot with run Bartlein's. There are a few Kreiger's, Rock Creek, and Brux barrels. They are all in the same price range. Expect $300-$420 depending on length and fluting, for a barrel blank. It still has the get chambered, usually another $200-$350. I wouldn't waste any money on anything but a cut rifled barrel.

Chontkleer
06-06-2012, 12:29 PM
Well then, lets see your research that proves the contrary. Those nay-sayers are experienced shooters, whose experience is based on shooting across the nation, have put more rounds down range in one month than most do in a year. We are not talking about "making hits". We are talking about consistant performance over multiple scenarios and Density Altitudes (DA). Actual data from real shooters (who are not affiliated with tacticool training DVDs) shows that the longer barrels do, in fact, perform better at long range over a more broad range of locations/DAs.

P.S.
In before Lowlight's supressed 18" at 1000 yards video.

True nuff, but have the nay-sayers actually used any short barrel rifles, or is all the nay-saying coming from people who've never actually tried them?

The only semi-scientific attempt at resolving this issue is the TacOps barrel cut-down where they say they saw no loss in velocity (using the same bullets). Have any of the great LR shooters actually tried short barrels in competition or even in their own ad-hoc experiments? Of course if they develop loads that are optimized for long barrels they are going to get more velocity out of the longer barrels, and that in itself would tend to make for more accurate shots, but I guess the question is "does this outweigh the rumored superior accuracy of shorter, stiffer barrels".

It's not a terribly important issue because once you get out there, it's all about the wind anyway, but if you're shooting into 0 to light wind or into lulls... maybe it's worth considering.

The Palma shooters are masterful, but it's been suggested that the real reason they love those long barrels is the longer sight radius (plus you're just that much closer to the target ::smile::)

All standard JUST GO SHOOT YOUR FREAKING RIFLE rules apply.

Chontkleer
06-06-2012, 12:47 PM
I chopped my PSS down from 26" to 22". The actual amount of weight that was chopped, I dont know, but the main benefit is that it shifts the balance back towards the shooter, instead of having it weighed down towards the muzzle. Very effective mod. The rifle feels much better all around.

As far as the target crown and muzzle device- Get in touch with Randy at RD Precision.

In regards to your stock, not many stocks worth a damn are going to be lighter weight than the HS Precision.

Will do, thanks.

Chontkleer
06-06-2012, 12:53 PM
Before I chambered my 700 for .260 I had the barrel cut to 22" and while it shot well up to about 800 yards, 900 and 1000 were a struggle for it and shots would be all over the target.

Ok now that is solid data.

Were you shooting the exact same loads? Same crown if any, no additional factors like brake?

hnoppenberger
06-06-2012, 1:01 PM
Don't run that gun in a compition that requires you to shoot from standing positions. That rifle is a precision bolt gun meant for prone or supported shooting. Build an AR for what your wanting to do.

DirtRacer151
06-06-2012, 1:35 PM
Don't run that gun in a compition that requires you to shoot from standing positions. That rifle is a precision bolt gun meant for prone or supported shooting. Build an AR for what your wanting to do.

What if the competition also requires you to shoot 1000yd shots one minute and 200yd off hand shots the next minute...with the same rifle???

Chontkleer
06-06-2012, 1:45 PM
What if the competition also requires you to shoot 1000yd shots one minute and 200yd off hand shots the next minute...with the same rifle???

Yup, those are the kinds of competitions I like.

P.W.
06-06-2012, 1:50 PM
Shoot an 18-22" barrel at 1000 yards and tell me it doesn't affect accuracy. At short to medium range it will be fine but not at long range

Sorry you know not what you speak of. Ryan and the boys over at GPS have proved that w/ a 26" Barreled PSS zeroed at 100yds hit the target @ 920yds with a 34 MOA increase above their baseline zero. When they cut the barrel down to 18" they recorded hits at 36 MOA with a 100yd zero of the same weapon @ 920yds. The difference here is negligible (2MOA).

I bought my PSS with a 26" barrel, when I took boys over at GPS' advice and chopped it to 18" My rifle went from shooting 1MOA to .5MOA. So unless you actually understand what your talking about or can back up your rationale don't spread fallacies.

Chontkleer
06-06-2012, 1:56 PM
Sorry you know not what you speak of. Ryan and the boys over at GPS have proved that w/ a 26" Barreled PSS zeroed at 100yds hit the target @ 920yds with a 34 MOA increase above their baseline zero. When they cut the barrel down to 18" they recorded hits at 36 MOA with a 100yd zero of the same weapon @ 920yds. The difference here is negligible (2MOA).

I bought my PSS with a 26" barrel, when I took boys over at GPS' advice and chopped it to 18" My rifle went from shooting 1MOA to .5MOA. So unless you actually understand what your talking about or can back up your rationale don't spread fallacies.

NOW we're getting somewhere. Using the same load? Same wind conditions? Bullets arriving nose first?

This Ryan? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Cleckner He's got some great videos pertinent to LR shooting.

P.W.
06-06-2012, 2:19 PM
NOW we're getting somewhere. Using the same load? Same wind conditions? Bullets arriving nose first?

This Ryan? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Cleckner He's got some great videos pertinent to LR shooting.


Yes Same Ryan. Same range, Same conditions. Originally they saw 39.5MOA @ over 900yds using Federal box ammo but switched to Black Hills and saw a 3.5MOA drop by just the ammo switch. This is what I was saying after you get your stick dialed in with cutting the barrel, fitting your stock, trigger, and glass then comes where you need to pick up a few loads and test w/ them as Ryan did. As you can imagine, a 2MOA increase @ 920yds w/ a 18" barrel compared to one that is a 26" isn't enough to worry about.

707electrician
06-06-2012, 2:23 PM
Sorry you know not what you speak of. Ryan and the boys over at GPS have proved that w/ a 26" Barreled PSS zeroed at 100yds hit the target @ 920yds with a 34 MOA increase above their baseline zero. When they cut the barrel down to 18" they recorded hits at 36 MOA with a 100yd zero of the same weapon @ 920yds. The difference here is negligible (2MOA).

I bought my PSS with a 26" barrel, when I took boys over at GPS' advice and chopped it to 18" My rifle went from shooting 1MOA to .5MOA. So unless you actually understand what your talking about or can back up your rationale don't spread fallacies.

Does it shoot .5 MOA at 1000 yards? If so I would love to see that target. You better inform all the palma shooters that they are doing it wrong because those 30" barrels are almost twice as long as they need to be and probably killing their scores

P.W.
06-06-2012, 2:27 PM
.5 or better @ 100yds. I never stated .5MOA @ 1000yds. Since your the expert 1K yd shooter here, please feel free to fill us in on your Expert Advice. I just don't get why some people are so wrapped up around spreading fallacies or hinting that an 18" Barreled PSS 700 will tank because it doesn't have a 26" barrel when shooting @ 1000yds. As long as the person shooting has the proper DOPE on that weapon and the conditions are right, there should be No issues...

bcrich
06-06-2012, 2:32 PM
Don't run that gun in a compition that requires you to shoot from standing positions. That rifle is a precision bolt gun meant for prone or supported shooting. Build an AR for what your wanting to do.

But that's where all the fun is!

Chontkleer
06-06-2012, 2:33 PM
Does it shoot .5 MOA at 1000 yards? If so I would love to see that target. You better inform all the palma shooters that they are doing it wrong because those 30" barrels are almost twice as long as they need to be and probably killing their scores

I think we need to talk to the Palma shooters. Are they doing it more for the ballistics or more for the sight radius?

DirtRacer151
06-06-2012, 2:36 PM
.5 or better @ 100yds. I never stated .5MOA @ 1000yds. Since your the expert 1K yds shooter here, please feel free to fill us in on your Expert Advice. I just don't get why some people are so wrapped up around spreading fallacies or hinting that an 18" Barreled PSS 700 will tank because it doesn't have a 26" barrel when shooting @ 1000yds.

So tell me what a .5 moa rifle @ 100yds has to gain from chopping the barrel down 8 inches at 100yds and 1000yds?

Your only claim is that it made your crappy groups shoot better. You obviously haven't heard of http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

For a shooter who has worked out the optimum load for their rifle and is capable of .5moa @100yds i would like to know why you feel it necessary to hack off 8" of velocity potential from a perfectly good barrel??

phish
06-06-2012, 2:37 PM
100 yards is srs bzns, amirite?

P.W.
06-06-2012, 2:49 PM
So tell me what a .5 moa rifle @ 100yds has to gain from chopping the barrel down 8 inches at 100yds and 1000yds?

Your only claim is that it made your crappy groups shoot better. You obviously haven't heard of http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

For a shooter who has worked out the optimum load for their rifle and is capable of .5moa @100yds i would like to know why you feel it necessary to hack off 8" of velocity potential from a perfectly good barrel??

Did his 26" barreled PSS shoot .5 to begin with ? I've stated above what he gains.

In the short run:
Saves some weight, negligible (1LB at most) , The barrel becomes stiffer by that -8" of (good barrel length). The weapon becomes more maneuverable and compact which if you were to move from a static position and have to dynamically clear/shoot targets @ close distances (should be self explanatory).

Cons:
I hacked off 8" of Perfectly good barrel length :rolleyes:
You have a change in velocity.
Your jumped on by uneducated people who don't understand this logic ;)

DirtRacer151
06-06-2012, 2:50 PM
I think we need to talk to the Palma shooters. Are they doing it more for the ballistics or more for the sight radius?

A lot of it is ballistics. Since there is limitations on the ammo (308 or 223) they squeeze everything they can from it. Running 155s from a 30" tube at warp speed is a much different game then we play with our 175s chugging along at snail pace.

If you have a rifle/ammo combo that shoots 1 MOA less wind at 1K then your buddy next to you and you both don't catch that gust of wind down range, you will be 10" closer to the target then him with the same hold.

Chontkleer
06-06-2012, 2:50 PM
Let's settle this tomorrow morning. Meet me here with Ryan Cleckner, a top Palma shooter, a top F-Class shooter, and a hacksaw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_Slide_(California)

Assuming the roof is 20'-30' tall of course.

707electrician
06-06-2012, 2:51 PM
.5 or better @ 100yds. I never stated .5MOA @ 1000yds. Since your the expert 1K yds shooter here, please feel free to fill us in on your Expert Advice. I just don't get why some people are so wrapped up around spreading fallacies or hinting that an 18" Barreled PSS 700 will tank because it doesn't have a 26" barrel when shooting @ 1000yds.

Then how does your argument have any validity in this situation. We are talking about long range shooting, I never said a short barreled .308 wouldn't do great at shorter ranges, and I am not doubting that your rifle shoots better now than it did before at 100 yards.

Im not a "1K yard expert" but I am trying to fill you in with my experience. I don't know why some people are so wrapped up with spreading fallacies that an 18" barreled .308 will do great at 1000 yards just because it shoots .5MOA or better at 100 yards, from 100 to 1000 yards there are a lot more outside variables that come into play beside gravity and bullet drop.

Like I said before I HAVE shot a short barreled .308 and I have also shot with other shooters that have shot short barreled .308's to 1000 yards and they don't do so hot. When I first got my R700 it was an SPS-V with the 26" barrel, I had it cut down to 22" and like I stated previously, it did well from 100-800 yards but past that they drop off tremendously.

Now at 900-1000 it wasn't like the bullets were falling out of the sky and dropping to the ground in front of the target, Im not saying that. With my 22" .308 I still had no problem getting the shots onto the target and they were still going in head first, but at that distance, with such a short barrel, there just isn't enough velocity to keep the bullet out of the transonic range which is where it starts to have issues.

So, I am not spreading fallacies, I am stating what I have seen from experience and giving people more information to think about before they cut their barrel down should they decide to compete in long range matches.

I was the same way when I first got the rifle. The first thing I did was cut the barrel down and put a brake on it but when I started competing in LR matches I quickly found out it wasn't going to cut it.

Now I have a 26" bartlein barrel with a .260 match chamber and all is right in the world again:D

P.W.
06-06-2012, 2:53 PM
Listen I'm not here to get into a pissing match, everyone in here has expressed their opinions ans tried to give some advise. Whether he decided to chop his barrel or not is up to him but at least he has some information to go off of. The OP now has some good information to work up his own opinion, that is what this thread was meant to establish...

707electrician
06-06-2012, 2:56 PM
So tell me what a .5 moa rifle @ 100yds has to gain from chopping the barrel down 8 inches at 100yds and 1000yds?

Your only claim is that it made your crappy groups shoot better. You obviously haven't heard of http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

For a shooter who has worked out the optimum load for their rifle and is capable of .5moa @100yds i would like to know why you feel it necessary to hack off 8" of velocity potential from a perfectly good barrel??

Another good point. The load P.W. used was obviously better suited for an 18" barrel than a 26" barrel, assuming everything else remained the same

P.W.
06-06-2012, 2:58 PM
Another good point. The load P.W. used was obviously better suited for an 18" barrel than a 26" barrel, assuming everything else remained the same

Well I would account my improvement to a number of things but a good quality crown after I cut it and the right load. The rifle out of the box had grouping issues to begin with. My 18" PSS works for me and what I need it to do, that may not be what the next person down the line needs. The mission dictates the gear...

tacticalcity
06-06-2012, 2:59 PM
All the mods I would do would add weight, not cut down on weight. There are hunting rifles, and precision rifles. The hunting rifle is about being able to lug it around all day long and not get tired while still having the accuracy and umph to do the job. The precision rifle is about supreme accuracy at all costs.

If money were no object...I would add a McMillan A5 stock in a swirl pattern (tan/brown/olive), Badger DBM, Badger 20MOA rail, Badger 30mm Rings, Leupold Mark IV 3.5x10x40 scope, Viking Tactics Precision 2 point sling, maybe a heavier barrel with 5R milspec rifling made from stainless steel, and cerecoat the metal and scope tan.

Chontkleer
06-06-2012, 3:00 PM
Listen I'm not here to get into a pissing match, everyone in here has expressed their opinions ans tried to give some advise. Whether he decided to chop his barrel or not is up to him but at least he has some information to go off of. The OP now has some good information to work up his own opinion, that is what this thread was meant to establish...

All very much appreciated. I think we definitely have established that barrel length is a very contentious issue. Will leave it to the Freuds to figure out why.

:o

707electrician
06-06-2012, 3:02 PM
My 18" PSS works for me and what I need it to do, that may not be what the next person down the line needs. The mission dictates the gear...

This we can both agree on. If it works for you that is all the matters

Cypriss32
06-06-2012, 3:03 PM
Factory barrels and aftermarket barrels are NOT the same, so you CAN NOT compair them period!
A 18" barrel with a TIGHT bore and chamber can shoot higher velocities then any FACTORY 308 gun........

707electrician
06-06-2012, 3:05 PM
Factory barrels and aftermarket barrels are NOT the same, so you CAN NOT compair them period!
A 18" barrel with a TIGHT bore and chamber can shoot higher velocities then any FACTORY 308 gun........

Who was comparing factory barrels to aftermarket barrels?

Untamed1972
06-06-2012, 3:08 PM
[U][B]I was hoping more around 2lbs.... if the stock barrel is 8 pounds and it weights 1/3rd lb per inch, but then again it tapers.

Dont forget the leverage factor. 1lbs off the end of the barrel will feel different than 1lbs out of something near the butt of the stock.

DirtRacer151
06-06-2012, 3:08 PM
In the short run:
The barrel becomes stiffer by that -8" of (good barrel length). Why does the barrel need to be stiffer if you've found the correct load for your gun using the OCW method? That point become irrelevant. Doesn't a thicker barrel also mean in theory that it is also stiffer? Would chopping a 1" thick barrel to 18" make your .5 groups go to .25 just by being stiffer? How come hunting contour 26" barrels are able to shoot tight groups?
The weapon becomes more maneuverable and compact which if you were to move from a static position and have to dynamically clear/shoot targets @ close distances (should be self explanatory).
This is true although really a non issue. Have you ever used your rifle in a manner where this would benefit you? I have. Go shoot some national matches with "mouse traps" and "scramblers" and you will realize that a 26" barrel really doesn't hurt you as bad as you would think. Not once have i got done shooting a stage with objects to crawl through, under, over, and around and thought to myself i could've done better if only i had an 18" barrel instead. You will also notice %90 of the shooters at these matches also running 22" plus barrels.

Cons:
Your jumped on by uneducated people who don't understand this logic

I'm very entertained that you give yourself the credit of being "educated" because you took a class. Well i am educated because i read it on the internet...HOW'S THAT!! :rolleyes:

Cypriss32
06-06-2012, 3:14 PM
Shoot an 18-22" barrel at 1000 yards and tell me it doesn't affect accuracy. At short to medium range it will be fine but not at long range

Ya........ No.......

https://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2445026

hnoppenberger
06-06-2012, 3:27 PM
What if the competition also requires you to shoot 1000yd shots one minute and 200yd off hand shots the next minute...with the same rifle???

yea, and I'd be equiped with an ar-10 platform in .243 or .308, 16" or 18" barrel, and be alot better off than a 26" hbar'd bolt gun. even an ar-15 in 6.8 would be fine.

DirtRacer151
06-06-2012, 3:29 PM
Ya........ No.......

https://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2445026

As you already stated.. you can't compare a factory barrel to a tight bore custom gun...especially with a suppressor!! I'd love to see someone get 2700fps using 175 class bullets in an 18" factory remington.

DirtRacer151
06-06-2012, 3:30 PM
yea, and I'd be equiped with an ar-10 platform in .243 or .308, 16" or 18" barrel, and be alot better off than a 26" hbar'd bolt gun. even an ar-15 in 6.8 would be fine.


Sounds like a plan. You should start competing!!

Timbob55
06-06-2012, 3:33 PM
Replace the lawyer trigger with a Timney. I did and it made a world of difference

Chontkleer
06-06-2012, 3:46 PM
Sounds like a plan. You should start competing!!

So far at some competitions that I've seen, a number of people with semi-autos had serious issues with jams.

Cypriss32
06-06-2012, 3:49 PM
As you already stated.. you can't compare a factory barrel to a tight bore custom gun...especially with a suppressor!! I'd love to see someone get 2700fps using 175 class bullets in an 18" factory remington.

All I know is someone said a 18" barrel 308 sucks a dick past 800yrds and they are wrong thats all...... I think factory rifles are NOT worth it. But thats me, Considering I HAVE ALOT of stuff.......... I dont need anymore factory stuff.

DirtRacer151
06-06-2012, 3:50 PM
So far at some competitions that I've seen, a number of people with semi-autos had serious issues with jams.

Exactly ;)

I've never been to a big match where a semi auto won. Sure they have some advantages. I love shooting my LMT 260 but it would never hold its own at the matches i've been to. I've seen autos do ok at the local events but the competition usually isn't as stiff.

Chontkleer
06-06-2012, 3:54 PM
Exactly ;)

I've never been to a big match where a semi auto won. Sure they have some advantages. I love shooting my LMT 260 but it would never hold its own at the matches i've been to. I've seen autos do ok at the local events but the competition usually isn't as stiff.

Hey were you at the CAPRC match on the 27th?

DirtRacer151
06-06-2012, 4:02 PM
Hey were you at the CAPRC match on the 27th?

No. I haven't shot a CAPRC match in over a year.

Cypriss32
06-06-2012, 4:22 PM
No. I haven't shot a CAPRC match in over a year.

Tell them why................... lol

DirtRacer151
06-06-2012, 8:15 PM
Tell them why................... lol

Nah.. we let that go. There's no point trying to discredit them now. Many of the original members and board members such as myself had a big fallout. It's all in the past now and and we all try to get along as best as possible. It's all about having fun so that's the main focus.

ubet
06-06-2012, 10:11 PM
Didnt read the whole thing, so bear with if its been mentioned.
1. Buy as much ammo as you can afford, and burn the barrel out, THEN and only then will you truly know what you want in a rifle. But here are a few things I do to my rifles.

2. optics, buy once cry once, whatever you can afford, save up and buy the 2nd step passed that, you wont regret it.

3. Good base and rings, Nightforce or Badger. Dont settle for cheap stuff.

3. Bipod, atlas v8 t

4. Upgrade the stock, mcmillan or mcrees, depending on what you like. While you are upgrading, make sure that it will accept AI mags. You want a dbm, its just a lot easier. Add, I have a 700 5r and just put an adjustable cheek piece and butt plate on it, its been bedded and has been good to me.

5. Get a good trigger.

phish
06-07-2012, 7:25 AM
Have any of the great LR shooters actually tried short barrels in competition or even in their own ad-hoc experiments? Of course if they develop loads that are optimized for long barrels they are going to get more velocity out of the longer barrels, and that in itself would tend to make for more accurate shots, but I guess the question is "does this outweigh the rumored superior accuracy of shorter, stiffer barrels".

no there hasn't, that's why I told you to feel free to run your own experiment on your own dime, then get back to us

It's not a terribly important issue because once you get out there, it's all about the wind anyway, but if you're shooting into 0 to light wind or into lulls... maybe it's worth considering.

see first comment above

The Palma shooters are masterful, but it's been suggested that the real reason they love those long barrels is the longer sight radius (plus you're just that much closer to the target ::smile::)

you're stubbornly argumentative and inquisitive, I'll give you that, you can read up on it yourself here: http://www.accurateshooter.com/competition/palma-basics-in-usa/

All standard JUST GO SHOOT YOUR FREAKING RIFLE rules apply.
finally...a glimmer of hope...

...

CS Sports
06-07-2012, 7:47 AM
Would love to see your research.

I don't look up stuff on the internet. I actually go out and try for myself. While an 18" barrel has its place for hunting, police snipers, and wannabe tactical ninjas.. the truth is for target shooting a longer barrel is almost always better.

The savings in weight and maneuverability you gain by chopping the barrel does not make up for the loss of performance you gain down range. Hunters usually take ethical shots inside 500yds and PD snipers rarely shoot past 100.

Nobody ever said an 18" barrel wouldn't make it to 1000 (hell my 16" 308 LMT makes it to 1K) We're just saying the benefits don't out weight what you loose down range for the average target shooter. A 22"+ barrel will really help when you're trying to keep them in the X ring 1000yds away.

But I'll bet you think it looks cool anyway ;)

First off, we are talking about a 20" 308, not an 18" 308. However, the velocity difference between 18 and 20" in a 308 Win is negligible, so the argument still holds. How do I know? I started with a 27" 308 Win and recorded velocities with identical loads then progressively cut down the barrel until I got to 17". Velocity loss with a short barrel is not nearly as much as one would expect. I'd show you the data, but you wouldn't believe it. Try it for yourself sometime.

I never said that a 20" 308 was exceptional at 1000 yards, but neither is a 26" 308. The notion that somehow a 26" barrel turns the 308 into a long range hammer is laughable and not worth responding to. Your argument that 2" of barrel length make an appreciable difference in performance borders on the absurd. Some FGMM ammo exhibits a larger extreme spread than the difference 2" of barrel will make.

Going from 26" to 20" will result in a net loss of less than 100 fps, probably closer to 80-90. That means that the 308 with a 175gr Berger (or MatchKing) is still supersonic to somewhere around 1200 yards.

Again, how do I know this? A couple hundred pounds of lead, copper and powder sent down range is how. A place to shoot past 2000 yards is how. The ability to ring the gong at 1012 yards with a 20" 308 with surprising consistency is how.

The whole point is that the guy already has the 308. Cutting it down to 20" doesn't handicap it nearly as much as some internet commandos would suggest. The 308 will never be a first choice for a dedicated long range rig, but that doesn't mean that it can't fill that role in a pinch, and do so admirably.

707electrician
06-07-2012, 8:57 AM
First off, we are talking about a 20" 308, not an 18" 308. However, the velocity difference between 18 and 20" in a 308 Win is negligible, so the argument still holds. How do I know? I started with a 27" 308 Win and recorded velocities with identical loads then progressively cut down the barrel until I got to 17". Velocity loss with a short barrel is not nearly as much as one would expect. I'd show you the data, but you wouldn't believe it. Try it for yourself sometime.

I never said that a 20" 308 was exceptional at 1000 yards, but neither is a 26" 308. The notion that somehow a 26" barrel turns the 308 into a long range hammer is laughable and not worth responding to. Your argument that 2" of barrel length make an appreciable difference in performance borders on the absurd. Some FGMM ammo exhibits a larger extreme spread than the difference 2" of barrel will make.

Going from 26" to 20" will result in a net loss of less than 100 fps, probably closer to 80-90. That means that the 308 with a 175gr Berger (or MatchKing) is still supersonic to somewhere around 1200 yards.

Again, how do I know this? A couple hundred pounds of lead, copper and powder sent down range is how. A place to shoot past 2000 yards is how. The ability to ring the gong at 1012 yards with a 20" 308 with surprising consistency is how.

The whole point is that the guy already has the 308. Cutting it down to 20" doesn't handicap it nearly as much as some internet commandos would suggest. The 308 will never be a first choice for a dedicated long range rig, but that doesn't mean that it can't fill that role in a pinch, and do so admirably.

How big of a gong? "The ability to ring the gong at 1012 yards with a 20" 308 with surprising consistency is how." This does not mean anything. How about you come out with your short barreled .308 to the next long range palma match at sac valley and show us "internet commandos" that long barrels are really unnecessary. I will even pick you and your gear up.

Untamed1972
06-07-2012, 9:39 AM
4. Add, I have a 700 5r and just put an adjustable cheek piece and butt plate on it, its been bedded and has been good to me.

Is that still on the factory 5R stock? What kinda cheek piece did you use?

707electrician
06-07-2012, 9:40 AM
Is that still on the factory 5R stock? What kinda cheek piece did you use?

I put a Karstens cheekpiece on my B&C A2 stock

Cypriss32
06-07-2012, 11:16 AM
Nah.. we let that go. There's no point trying to discredit them now. Many of the original members and board members such as myself had a big fallout. It's all in the past now and and we all try to get along as best as possible. It's all about having fun so that's the main focus.

I know all about it.... I stopped before you got involved. 16,000 a year of school is alot of money and not much left over for guns and shooting.

CS Sports
06-07-2012, 11:43 AM
How big of a gong? "The ability to ring the gong at 1012 yards with a 20" 308 with surprising consistency is how." This does not mean anything. How about you come out with your short barreled .308 to the next long range palma match at sac valley and show us "internet commandos" that long barrels are really unnecessary. I will even pick you and your gear up.

3 of them are 10" circles, 4 of them are 10"x12" rectangles.

Bottom line is that 4,6, or even 8" of barrel length doesn't turn the 308 into a great long range chambering. Likewise, if you can't hit consistently with a 20" barreled 308, 26" won't help you.

The difference in wind drift between a 175gr Berger launched from a 26" tube and a 20" tube is about .4 MOA at 1000 yards. Difference in drop is about 2 MOA. ES variation in many FGMM loads accounts for more than that, and if you can't manage a 2 MOA adjustment in your come ups, you have no business shooting at 1000 yards.

Stoopy
06-07-2012, 11:54 AM
Hey were you at the CAPRC match on the 27th?

Yes

DirtRacer151
06-07-2012, 12:02 PM
First off, we are talking about a 20" 308, not an 18" 308. However, the velocity difference between 18 and 20" in a 308 Win is negligible, so the argument still holds. How do I know? I started with a 27" 308 Win and recorded velocities with identical loads then progressively cut down the barrel until I got to 17". Velocity loss with a short barrel is not nearly as much as one would expect. I'd show you the data, but you wouldn't believe it. Try it for yourself sometime.

I never said that a 20" 308 was exceptional at 1000 yards, but neither is a 26" 308. The notion that somehow a 26" barrel turns the 308 into a long range hammer is laughable and not worth responding to. Your argument that 2" of barrel length make an appreciable difference in performance borders on the absurd. Some FGMM ammo exhibits a larger extreme spread than the difference 2" of barrel will make.

Going from 26" to 20" will result in a net loss of less than 100 fps, probably closer to 80-90. That means that the 308 with a 175gr Berger (or MatchKing) is still supersonic to somewhere around 1200 yards.

Again, how do I know this? A couple hundred pounds of lead, copper and powder sent down range is how. A place to shoot past 2000 yards is how. The ability to ring the gong at 1012 yards with a 20" 308 with surprising consistency is how.

The whole point is that the guy already has the 308. Cutting it down to 20" doesn't handicap it nearly as much as some internet commandos would suggest. The 308 will never be a first choice for a dedicated long range rig, but that doesn't mean that it can't fill that role in a pinch, and do so admirably.

I still can't figure out what you're arguing about?? To me it just sounds like you're trying to justify your reasoning for chopping your barrel off and thats fine. Nobody else needs to agree with you. I'm glad you've put in hundreds of pounds worth of bullets and powder to come to that conclusion for yourself...

You assume that myself and others here never leave our keyboards...like i've never chopped a barrel before...like none of us have ever shot a rifle before. I'm here to tell you that you're wrong.

If the OP would like to sacrifice his barrel for his own testing purposes then thats up to him. To lead him to believe that chopping the barrel is the definitive answer though is misleading and what everyone of us "naysayers" are trying stop from happening. I'm glad it works for you. Its benefits don't outweigh its disadvantages for the rest of us though.

I'm going to drop this conversation now. Obviously we're being told by someone who has much more knowledge and experience then us..

I'll leave these threads here for you to take a gander at when you're ready to put that stubby barrel up against some real simulated conditions in tactical and LR matches we will all be ready to show you how little your short barrel actually helps you vs hurt..
James-

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/06/2011-tactical-bolt-rifle-challenge-match-video/

tactical matches
http://caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=281
http://caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=490
http://caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=743
http://caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=913

LR matches
http://caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2760
http://caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3478

DirtRacer151
06-07-2012, 12:05 PM
Likewise, if you can't hit consistently with a 20" barreled 308, 26" won't help you.




Dude.. you're impossible. While not as critical as a 260 or 243 it most certainly WILL help. :chris:

I give up

Cypriss32
06-07-2012, 12:13 PM
Dont forget palma shooters can really only shoot 155gr 30cal bullets. They need to get the most out of there velocity.
Plus if I remember correctly that longer sight radius is better........


How about this, go shoot your ****. See what works for you, rock it and dont ask anyone for advice. Everyone believes what they have works great, that WHY we have what we have. Ie: 284s, 7wsm, 243s, 260, 6.5x47, USO, NF, MArk4......

CS Sports
06-07-2012, 12:22 PM
The point is that posters jumped all over the guy telling him that cutting 6" off his barrel will render the rifle useless for long range. That just isn't the case.

Is the 308 an ideal 1000 yard cartridge? No, that is not at issue here. There are lots of far better options.

The bottom line is that if the guy wants to cut his barrel to 20" he will still have a very capable rifle that will easily perform at 1000 yards. He will also have a much better handling rifle to boot.

CS Sports
06-07-2012, 12:24 PM
Dude.. you're impossible. While not as critical as a 260 or 243 it most certainly WILL help. :chris:

I give up

Yep, it will give you 2 MOA of elevation at .4 MOA of windage. If you have a good load with ES under 20 fps, you might be able to take advantage of the "help".

707electrician
06-07-2012, 12:36 PM
3 of them are 10" circles, 4 of them are 10"x12" rectangles.

Bottom line is that 4,6, or even 8" of barrel length doesn't turn the 308 into a great long range chambering. Likewise, if you can't hit consistently with a 20" barreled 308, 26" won't help you.

The difference in wind drift between a 175gr Berger launched from a 26" tube and a 20" tube is about .4 MOA at 1000 yards. Difference in drop is about 2 MOA. ES variation in many FGMM loads accounts for more than that, and if you can't manage a 2 MOA adjustment in your come ups, you have no business shooting at 1000 yards.

So why don't you come out to the next long range match at Sac Valley with us and show us how its done? If you can consistently hit a 10" circle at 1000 yards you can clean the 1000 yard F-class target no problem and win the match. You will even give the guys shooting f/open, with their expensive front and rear rests and high bc 6mm cartridges, a run for their money

CS Sports
06-07-2012, 12:54 PM
Nice try. I said with surprising consistency. I never claimed to be able to hit them every time, nor have I claimed that I would clean up at any competition.

It is no harder to make hits with the rifle with it's 20" tube than it was with the 26" tube, and that is the entire point of the discussion.

Since you seem to want to bait me into an alternative discussion, I take it that you can't refute my argument? You really think that 2 MOA in elevation and .4 MOA in windage will make a dramatic difference in score at 1000 yards? Do you really not have the ability to adjust a come up 2 MOA?

707electrician
06-07-2012, 1:10 PM
Nice try. I said with surprising consistency. I never claimed to be able to hit them every time, nor have I claimed that I would clean up at any competition.

It is no harder to make hits with the rifle with it's 20" tube than it was with the 26" tube, and that is the entire point of the discussion.

Since you seem to want to bait me into an alternative discussion, I take it that you can't refute my argument? You really think that 2 MOA in elevation and .4 MOA in windage will make a dramatic difference in score at 1000 yards? Do you really not have the ability to adjust a come up 2 MOA?

All Im going to say is that the real world is a bit different than a ballistics calculator and while 2 MOA elevation and .4 windage (on paper) wouldn't make a difference in score (as long as you compensated for it), I can tell you the difference from 26" to 20" does and is probably due to the bullet going transonic at that distance and not being stable.

Im going to ask you again and I am asking in all seriousness, why don't you come out and shoot a long range match with us?

Outonthegrind
06-07-2012, 1:13 PM
This may be taken wrong but a lot of times having the proper form in your kneeling position takes significant weight off the rifle as you can use your knees and elbows to turn your body into a "base" so to speak. Standing is a different thing altogether..I hope that made some kind of sense, i could show you better than i could tell you. A quick google search for crouched shooting positions may help as im sure theres old field training manuals in pdf online somewhere..good luck

707electrician
06-07-2012, 1:21 PM
This may be taken wrong but a lot of times having the proper form in your kneeling position takes significant weight off the rifle as you can use your knees and elbows to turn your body into a "base" so to speak. Standing is a different thing altogether..I hope that made some kind of sense, i could show you better than i could tell you. A quick google search for crouched shooting positions may help as im sure theres old field training manuals in pdf online somewhere..good luck

This is a great point. Watch service rifle shooters and you will see that weight isn't a big issue, its all about how you hold it. With a match service rifle you have a heavy barrel and a lot of us actually ADD weight to the stock and foregrip to balance the rifle. Supporting the rifle while standing/sitting/kneeling is all about skeletal support, not using your muscles, and in some positions, using the sling. In the off hand position we aren't even allowed to use the sling.

Chontkleer
06-07-2012, 7:36 PM
Yes

Hi Stoopy. Have fun? I had a blast.

Chontkleer
06-07-2012, 7:41 PM
This may be taken wrong but a lot of times having the proper form in your kneeling position takes significant weight off the rifle as you can use your knees and elbows to turn your body into a "base" so to speak. Standing is a different thing altogether..I hope that made some kind of sense, i could show you better than i could tell you. A quick google search for crouched shooting positions may help as im sure theres old field training manuals in pdf online somewhere..good luck

No, that's definitely key. I did a little research, learned about bone on bone, and watched some people and I've got the sitting down pretty well. Kneeling and standing and unsupported prone is a different story which I hope to get under control with a good sling.

Chontkleer
06-07-2012, 7:44 PM
...

Lol, thanks for the link.

Stoopy
06-09-2012, 10:24 PM
Hi Stoopy. Have fun? I had a blast.

Yeah I had fun. What was your shooter number that day?

As to this on going argument, I think it would be better to spend the money on ammo and practicing positional stages than cutting down the barrel.

Chontkleer
06-09-2012, 10:34 PM
Yeah I had fun. What was your shooter number that day?

As to this on going argument, I think it would be better to spend the money on ammo and practicing positional stages than cutting down the barrel.

I was number 5. With John Lee only one to hit 100% on the mini hostages, came in 11th overall I think.

As for the barrel... it's fluted and the smiths don't want to cut down fluted barrel anyway, so it's shoot the barrel out uncompensated now. I think the only mods I'll be doing is dialing down the trigger or replacing it and either getting a DM or stock with included DM.

Planning to do the reloading class at Angeles and then buying the equipment. I was shooting great with fgmm's but then I bought some reloads and things went haywire.

If anyone on the thread wants to teach .308 reloading on their equipment, in the 818 or nearby please let me know. $50 and beer?

nimoZ
06-10-2012, 12:54 AM
Many interesting data points here.
I read this (http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/01/cartridges-1000-yard-308-load.htm) and put a 30" barrel on my FN SPR.
- Maybe I should have picked 15" instead? At least I would not need to fold the backseat to get the gun in to the trunk :)

Going subsonic makes a world of difference and mussel velocity means nothing if not compared to the environmentals (http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_da.htm) for where you shoot: Altitude, Temperature, etc.
Sac Valley DA usually run in the 0 - 200 range, except for hot summer days.
- My local range is usually over 4000, so none of my initial loads would work well at Sac.
Cutting my barrel would not have helped, but your mileage may vary.

707electrician
06-17-2012, 6:52 PM
CS Sports-

June 23 is another 1k match at sac valley. Come out so I can see how well that 18" .308 does.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=584935

6mmintl
06-18-2012, 5:48 AM
Not mentioned yet but dont forget a good bolt cleaning and polishing on firing pin/striker bearing surfaces then a light oil.

If using the mag box a good tune up of follower and ramping of feed ramp at front of mag bow mating to receiver ramp. You could also lightly stone receiver feed ramps for smooth feeding.