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drdarkness
06-03-2012, 8:20 AM
I met her through friends and after talking for while she told me she had a felony but it was exponged,which I know still counts as a felony in th eyes of the law. What I want to know is what kind of legal issues may arise if things work out for us and the guns are in my name?

paul0660
06-03-2012, 8:28 AM
She cannot have access to them. They have to be in a safe or a locked room or in your hands as you take them to the car.

SilverTauron
06-03-2012, 8:36 AM
Look elsewhere.

Im not judging this woman's past, but a phrase from my CCW legal training comes to mind:"A higher standard of care".

The term applies to people with LTC's who are obligated to de-escalate a conflict, but I believe its applicable to general gun ownership as well. On the side of the road at 1am , the LEO who arrests your date and seizes your firearm will not care about being judgmental. Being a gun owner means you need to take care about who you socialize with;because the law being what it is you are held to a "higher standard of care" by society in light of your status.

A guy with a clear record who doesn't own guns can get caught with a dimebag of weed and an ex-con girlfriend, and odds are he'll not be the worse for wear should the five-oh pay a visit. If that same guy owns firearms, fugedeboutit. Jail, charges, and at the very least certain forefiture of the firearms can happen, all the while the authorities will be shaking their heads at the stupidity of a guy who willfully choose to hang out with a crook. It may not be fair , but that's the breaks. We are held to a higher standard in choosing our company.

No one that I know has a record, expunged or otherwise, will be in my company going to or from the range. This is a personal rule which exists to ensure me, my friends, my car, and my guns stay out of the police station.

Cactus_Tim
06-03-2012, 9:09 AM
I met her through friends and after talking for while she told me she had a felony but it was expunged,which I know still counts as a felony in the eyes of the law. What I want to know is what kind of legal issues may arise if things work out for us and the guns are in my name?

Yes, but...
If her conviction was a wobbler, and it was reduced to a misdemeanor and then dismissed...
She is not required to answer 'yes' to a question about a felony conviction (except for political office, or state license).
She may have had her rights restored and may be okay to purchase and possess firearms.
Have her send in a Personal Firearms Eligibility Check (http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/pfecapp.pdf?) to find out for sure.
That is, if you really want to know.

bussda
06-03-2012, 9:28 AM
I met her through friends and after talking for while she told me she had a felony but it was exponged,which I know still counts as a felony in th eyes of the law. What I want to know is what kind of legal issues may arise if things work out for us and the guns are in my name?

As things progress, you will need to know the type of expungment, i.e. as a felony or felony reduced to misdemeanor then expunged. Worst case is you would have to choose her or guns.

Look elsewhere.

Im not judging this woman's past, but a phrase from my CCW legal training comes to mind:"A higher standard of care".

The term applies to people with LTC's who are obligated to de-escalate a conflict, but I believe its applicable to general gun ownership as well. On the side of the road at 1am , the LEO who arrests your date and seizes your firearm will not care about being judgmental. Being a gun owner means you need to take care about who you socialize with;because the law being what it is you are held to a "higher standard of care" by society in light of your status.

A guy with a clear record who doesn't own guns can get caught with a dimebag of weed and an ex-con girlfriend, and odds are he'll not be the worse for wear should the five-oh pay a visit. If that same guy owns firearms, fugedeboutit. Jail, charges, and at the very least certain forefiture of the firearms can happen, all the while the authorities will be shaking their heads at the stupidity of a guy who willfully choose to hang out with a crook. It may not be fair , but that's the breaks. We are held to a higher standard in choosing our company.

No one that I know has a record, expunged or otherwise, will be in my company going to or from the range. This is a personal rule which exists to ensure me, my friends, my car, and my guns stay out of the police station.

Thread drift. "Higher standard of care." Law enforcement jargon. That is putting an unwritten moral standard on a person who only owns firearms or may have an LTC. While it is appropriate as a policy for employment and credibility, it cannot be expected for conduct. But it is wise.

littlejake
06-03-2012, 9:40 AM
I agree with Cactus Tim. Before you kick her to the curb, you need to find out more about whether this is a disqualification. The PFEC is a good place to start. An expunged felony can mean a lot of things. Here in CA, she might be on the prohibited persons file at DOJ -- but still be good in the Federal NICS.

If you're really hooked on this gal; maybe you would want to spend some money on a lawyer. Depending on what "expunged felony" means -- a lawyer might be able to set this right.

Your choice.

I'm going to add some thoughts here. My adult stepson was convicted of a felony. He plead nolo contendre in exchange, he got community service plus 1 year probation with a stipulation that the record could be expunged after probation if he had no further incidents. At the end of the year, more money to the lawyer and the court expunged it. Can he buy a gun -- No, the 4473 says Have you ever been convicted of a felony? Can he get a government security clearance -- not likely as all convictions must be disclosed. To my point -- if the woman's case parallels my stepson's, then she cannot buy a gun. But, I think an expunged felony would not show if the police were to run her during an interaction.

I hope she saved all the paperwork from the case -- some expunged felonies may be reduced to non-disqualifying misdemeanors by a lawyer filing the correct paperwork -- and that would be best for both of you.

Someone with more legal knowledge might know that process.

drdarkness
06-03-2012, 12:44 PM
I don't know what she did all she said was she was young and stupid it was 20yrs ago and she has not been in any trouble since,not even a ticket. Btw she's the one who came forward with this info when I asked how she felt about guns,don't want to date an anti. I guess my next plan of action is to do what Cactus_Tim said. Thanks guys.

Ubermcoupe
06-03-2012, 1:01 PM
Keep firearms out of her possession/control. I mean, you have safe right?

If she’s a good woman, she’s a good woman and I see no reason to not explore it further.

I think it would sound kind of funny if you went “Well, we have to stop seeing each other because I prefer to stroke my pistols @ night” ;)

Cannon-Arms
06-03-2012, 1:11 PM
I don't know what she did all she said was she was young and stupid it was 20yrs ago and she has not been in any trouble since,not even a ticket. Btw she's the one who came forward with this info when I asked how she felt about guns,don't want to date an anti. I guess my next plan of action is to do what Cactus_Tim said. Thanks guys.

All kidding aside, that sounds like the most prudent first step to take, get her checked out.

Good luck, affairs of the heart make us mens do stoopid things sometime.

ClarenceBoddicker
06-03-2012, 2:46 PM
Wow there seems to be a lot of 1968 Gun Control Act fans here that love to go above & beyond what is written in that wholly un-Constitutional law. That stupid law says nothing about who or who a gun or ammo owner can't be romantically involved with or marry, as long as said owner doesn't have the felony conviction. If she has a felony conviction (there are a few white collar crimes that don't = a lifetime ban on firearms possession BTW), than that is her issue, not yours. If she gets caught with a gun in her possession, then she will be the one to face the heat not you.

Don't believe all the misapplied constructive possession or conspiracy gun FUD that endlessly gets spouted here either. You could easily apply the ATF's own logic with NFA weapons possession to people who have felony convictions & guns. The ATF allows a registered machine gun owner to let anyone hold & shoot their machine gun, as long as the owner is still nearby. If they let someone else borrow or take their machine gun without an ATF approved transfer, then that would be a crime for both parties. Do the FUD spouters here know that it's 100% legal under Federal law to ship a registered machine gun to an out of state gunsmith for repair without getting an ATF approved transfer? ATF does recommend getting a tax free form 5, but they also say that it is not required. The gunsmith can hold on to the machine gun as long as needed to repair it & does not need to have it registered to them. They can also legally ship it to another gunsmith to do work that they can't.

As CA is one of the leading Police States in the US, I could see getting a prenup & will that excludes her from ownership of your guns and ammo and any that are acquired later on. Just because she has access to firearms or ammo, doesn't mean that she is in possession of them. A gun owner living with a felon is not committing conspiracy either, unless they do something unlawful like hand the felon one of their guns & tells them to go to the shooting range with it, without them going along. Using the paranoid FUD "logic" here, it would be a crime for a felon to walk into any store that sold guns & ammo like Wal-mart. All the Wal-mart workers who didn't do criminal background checks on their customers before letting them into the store, would also be committing conspiracy. Would a Wal-mart worker (with the key to the guns & ammo display) who is working in the store that sold guns & ammo, that had a few felon customers shopping, be in "constructive possession"? Is there anything in CA law that specifically states that it's illegal for gun owner to live with or marry someone who has a firearm possession legal disability? What about felons being in or around places that have or sell guns or ammo? I'd like to see the PC #'s of all these laws.

Kappy
06-04-2012, 1:13 AM
Good luck.

Oh... is there any way to get her 2A rights given back to her? You can get your voting privileges back... does the 2A follow similarly?

MudCamper
06-04-2012, 8:38 AM
OK first, ignore the idiotic posts by people in this thread that live in a fantasy black and white world who say just dump her.

Then, get more details. Quite often people don't really know what they mean when they say "felony" and "expungement". Felony often times turns out to be a felony-wobbler, which can be reduced to misdemeanor to get full rights back.

And expungement sometimes means a 1203.4 "dismissal", which is worthless, and sometimes means a 17(b) "reduction", which gives firearms rights back. Find out exactly what the charges were, and exactly what "expungement" she got. Go ask the court for the records if necessary. Then speak with a competent attorney and ignore internet commandos.

http://www.paul.net/guns/CDM_Memorandum_on_restoration_of_rights.pdf

SilverTauron
06-04-2012, 8:57 AM
OK first, ignore the idiotic posts by people in this thread that live in a fantasy black and white world who say just dump her.

We live in a day and age where people get divorced over very petty things.If casual deceit and infidelity is a reason to drop someone, you'd best believe a felony record is a great factual reason to consider ending a relationship. Women are half the people in the world;odds are the OP will eventually find someone who doesn't have a rap sheet.




Then, get more details. Quite often people don't really know what they mean when they say "felony" and "expungement". Felony often times turns out to be a felony-wobbler, which can be reduced to misdemeanor to get full rights back.

Here's the problem with this analysis. People being people, folks usually don't volunteer negative aspects of their past unless they absolutely have to. For the OP's lady friend to voluntarily admit that she has a felony conviction, it must be something so awful hiding it is impossible, or she's so honest and trusting of the OP that she'd volunteer that aspect of her past without reservation. I doubt its the latter(no offense intended to the OP).

I know from experience on this topic-I brought a firearm to my stepdad's home in Illinois to go shooting with friends.Turned out as I was packing up to leave my mom had something to say about why he was so anti-gun:turned out back in the 70's he was dealing drugs and got busted, so he's a prohibited person for life. The man's an ordained minister now, so I had not the first idea he was a convicted felon . I chalked up his anti-gun attitude to being a symptom of spending a lifetime living in the Chicago area. Not that it would mean jack if the authorities came to that house for any reason. How could I prove to an activist DA that I DIDN'T know he was a felon and that he had NO access to my firearms?






And expungement sometimes means a 1203.4 "dismissal", which is worthless, and sometimes means a 17(b) "reduction", which gives firearms rights back. Find out exactly what the charges were, and exactly what "expungement" she got. Go ask the court for the records if necessary. Then speak with a competent attorney and ignore internet commandos.

http://www.paul.net/guns/CDM_Memorandum_on_restoration_of_rights.pdf

All of this costs money and time, and for what my worthless opinion is on this topic, she's not worth it. Should the OP decide to marry this woman then perhaps at that point it would be wise to consider taking the steps to expunge or address the conviction. This is a problem she brought about herself, and its not the OPs place-or even his job, really-to fix this.

If he dumps this girl on account of her conviction none of us can say he's not justified in doing so.None of my ex-gfs had a felony record to my knowledge, yet they still became ex's for reasons far less serious than a conviction.

OleCuss
06-04-2012, 9:31 AM
A gun vault that only you have access to(either by key or combination) is still just hearsay to the police. They can neither confirm or deny that she does not have access to them and neither can you. Saying that will keep you in line with the law is not correct. Can you prove that she doesn't know how to access them? No? Then how are the police supposed to confirm it?

That's why you do not give consent for a search. That way they don't know what's in the thing. And yes, I actually have a GunVault and I also have a gun safe which do not have any firearms in them at all. Others do, but I have one of each which do not.

And if the cops are worried that the person with a previous felony conviction just might have the combo - I think that they are going to have fun proving that in court.

If one wishes to be very, very certain that they could never be arrested for a prohibited person having possession of a firearm then staying far away from anyone you don't know has a perfectly clean record is the smart thing to do.

But I might point out that if the cops can arrest you and you can be prosecuted because your Significant Other just might have the combination for your safe, then there are (IIRC) at least tens of thousands of Californians who are subject to arrest for owning a RAW and being married or having a SO. Their SO cannot have possession of the RAW so they have to keep the RAW in a safe for which their SO does not have the combo. How do the cops know that the SO doesn't have the combo?

But the RAW is perfectly legally owned. The SO has no criminal record. But the SO cannot have possession. It is difficult to see how this could all sort out legally unless securing the firearm in a locked safe/vault is legally sufficient - and the SO simply is not able to open the safe/vault. The knowledge of the combo will have to be proven in court.

And if you don't tell the cops you have firearms in the safe they don't really know even that there are any firearms for the prohibited person to access (which is why I mentioned that I have a vault and a safe which have no firearms).

sharxbyte
06-04-2012, 10:57 AM
She can have her gun rights reinstated, but it will require a lawyer, and likely around 5k to do so.

calif 15-22
06-04-2012, 12:13 PM
Not trying to be mean or inconsiderate...

But who cares? What does it matter what a bunch of people on the internet tell you? It's up to you and it's your decision. A lot of people have opinions about others and can give advice but fail to follow their own advice in their own personal lives. Thus, my advice or anyone else for that matter should not be used to persuade or influence your decision in any way. I'm sure there are many on this board who can give advice but somehow justify mistakes that they may have made in their own lives.

You know how you feel about this woman (or at least you know that you are beginning to feel for her). As such, rather than seek advice from a bunch of strangers, go and talk with her yourself about your concerns. That is truly what matters. Either you don't know enough or you're not sharing enough about her past so go ask her and find out what she says. If she cares the same for you she will be free to open up and tell you about everything.

People on the internet should not even be considered as reliable or credible sources to gauge your relationships. Take her to lunch, sit at a quiet place and talk **** out. Come on man, you know what you need to do, so go do it.

Again, not trying to sound harsh or anything but don't seek out advice from strangers about your own personal life. Go and do what you need to do and make the decision as to what is best for you. Good luck!

^^^^Dave has it right.^^^^^^^

As for all the "Dump her and move on", or "Another fish in the sea" must either not care what good woman is, or be to young to know what one is.

She was upfront with you +1. She like you +2. She knows and seems not to care you own guns +3. If she can cook and keep your friends hands out of her pants, she's a keeper in my book.


Damn, is she going to be pissed when she comes across this thread ...

I'd be more worried about this^^^^. Can you imagine "You WHAT!!" "You went on a GUN FORUM and asked a bunch of strangers if you should KEEP me" "WTF were you thinking" At this point I would be concerned that the guns were locked up! :cool:

A-J
06-04-2012, 1:05 PM
I don't get how so many people are making it seem to be a crime to date someone with a record.

IANAL, but my understanding of the CA laws re prohibited person is that, assuming she was convicted of one of the crimes enumerated in the PC, as long as you do not supply her with guns or ammunition (to include magazines - read the definition, it is VERY all-encompassing) then you should be fine. Worry about hte restoration of priveleges if the realtionship starts to take a serious turn towards long term.

drdarkness
06-04-2012, 1:11 PM
First of all I'm not looking for relationship advise,I'm not going to dump her since we're not in one yet All I wanted to Know is what legal issues may arise for her not me since my record is spotless,I wouldn't want her to get into trouble because of my guns. As some of you may know from another post my best friends parents were murdered in a home invasion so I'm not giving up my guns for anyone. I just wanted to know if I had to protect myself or my home or got pulled over and searched would she be ok.

6172crew
06-04-2012, 3:48 PM
The OP is Not asking for advise on a relationship. The OP wants to know what rights if any he might have to give up being around a felon and what must the OP do to keep his record "spotless". I have a good mind to delete 90% of the posts because they dont answer the question or any question for that matter.. :rolleyes:

I am in the same boat as our OP, I know someone who;along with 6 others that was convicted for selling drugs in 1994, what rights do I loose or what do i need to do when I know there is a Felon in my house. The OPs record and mine are the same and spending 6 years in a communist world (USMC) I dont take kindly to giving up my rights so this has zero to do with the small head thinking for the big head, nor does it have anything to do with running the other way. My friend is a great person but has a mark that keeps her from owning firearms.

1. Can LE ask me to open my safe when she is in my house/car?
2. If I hold a LTC does that factor in during a traffic stop when my friend is in the same vehicle?
3. Can I legally transport ammo and or firearms in a vehicle when a felon is present?
4. Can I ship ammo to my house if I may not be at home but a Felon is?

drdarkness
06-04-2012, 4:28 PM
Thank you 6172crew and the others who understand the question.

OleCuss
06-04-2012, 6:34 PM
.
.
.
1. Can LE ask me to open my safe when she is in my house/car?

They can ask, but you can say no. Just because she was once a felon does not mean that you and she do not have a right to refuse a search.

So they ask and you refuse.

2. If I hold a LTC does that factor in during a traffic stop when my friend is in the same vehicle?

It depends on a bunch of things. First, is she a prohibited person? If she is not prohibited then the rules are as they are for everyone else.

If she is prohibited, then just make sure the firearm is in your possession. So if you have the thing strapped on it is clearly in your possession and there should be no problem.

But if she is prohibited and the firearm is not secured so that it is clearly not in her possession you just might have a problem. IOW, if she is cradling it in her arms you're gonna have problems. If you've put it in a case she cannot open you could have issues (true even if she is not prohibited) but you shouldn't and (as a non-lawyer) I think you beat the rap.

3. Can I legally transport ammo and or firearms in a vehicle when a felon is present?

First, if the felony has been expunged, she is not a felon. She may be prohibited, but that doesn't mean she is still a felon.

If she has not had the felony expunged I really don't know about the ammo. If she is merely prohibited I don't think the ammo is an issue.

If she's prohibited, make the firearm secure from her and stick it in the trunk.

If the firearm is in the trunk and you don't answer any questions about firearms a lot of the problems just go away. After all, if they don't know there is a problem they've got problems coming up with probable cause for a search. If they don't have probable cause they can't legally search. If they search illegally you get the case thrown out.

The problem is manageable by just doing what we should all do. Secure your firearm one way or another and don't tell the cops about stuff that isn't their business.

4. Can I ship ammo to my house if I may not be at home but a Felon is?

Sorry, not sure about the ammo bit if they are still a felon. But if there's been an expungement I just don't think there should be an issue - but IANAL.

Remember, parts is parts. Ammo is ammo. Parts are not (unless they've got the serial number on them) a firearm and neither is ammo. So my stripped lower is serialized and is a firearm even though it has no upper, trigger group, stock, etc. But there is no other component other than that lower which by itself constitutes a firearm.

HTH.

freonr22
06-05-2012, 4:45 PM
A felon cannot have ammunition, a magazine, or any gun parts..

OleCuss
06-05-2012, 5:34 PM
A felon cannot have ammunition, a magazine, or any gun parts..

Thank you for the clarification. Much appreciated.

Fortunately, the woman mentioned in the OP got the felony expunged so as a former felon she would no longer have the prohibition on having ammo or gun parts? Is that correct or am I off base?

BKinzey
06-05-2012, 7:26 PM
Perhaps I am naive, but I have no reason to deny an LEO permission to search my house or my car for that matter because I have done nothing wrong. That may just be me though. To each his own I guess

There are lots of stories relayed here about LEOs not knowing the law or misinterpreting it. That can cost you a lot of money and time. You scan this specific forum for cases and read up on LEO mistakes which utimately cost the law abiding.

Here's a scenario. You have your firearm locked in a soft case in your vehicle with you. You have a box of ammo and a loaded magazine in the same locked case. The loaded magazine is not in the firearm. That is a legal way of transportation. You can find this info in the CGF Wiki under transportation.

Ask police about transporting. I doubt you will be able to get to 5 officers before you get one of these wrong answers.

It needs to be in a hard case.
It needs to be out of your reach.
It needs to be in the trunk.
Ammo needs to be in a separate case. Might even say separate locked case.
Loaded mags are a no-no. (Only if you are a gang member.)
You can only transport directly to, or from, your shooting activity.

Now lets say you tell an officer you have a firearm in the vehicle. Legally he can perform an "E-Check" to see if the firearm is being transported legally. Be prepared for the officer to draw his weapon and have you exit the vehicle to be handcuffed and sat curbside or in the back of the cruiser.

Some think they can search your entire vehicle now.
Write down your firearm info and "run it" (which for practical purposes will probably just be a further waste of your time).

When you say "I have nothing to hide" what you are actually doing is handing that determination over to someone you don't know and trusting they will come to the same conclusion. I'm skeptical of people I don't know.

BKinzey
06-05-2012, 7:52 PM
When I was in college in Texas possession of Marijuana could be charged as a felony. For as little as one joint. In their zeal to outlaw homosexuality anal intercourse was against the law. The law was so poorly written that a married couple was breaking the law, I'm fairly certain that was a felony.

So yea, I'm going to find out more about the "felony" before kicking somebody to the curb.

What's her name- who went to prison for insider trading? Wasn't that a felony conviction?

SDM44
06-06-2012, 12:56 PM
I'll say this from 1st hand experience.

I know 'somebody' who was convicted of a felony some years ago (a nasty one, but non-violent). After their 3 year probation, they were able to file for an expungement and it was granted, thus changing your plea on record from Guilty to Not Guilty, and that being recorded and approved by the court. Afterwards, this person is now legally allowed to answer "No" when asked if they've ever been convicted of a felony. However, if somebody were to look everything up, then it's all public record that would show a felony conviction being expunged and dismissed.


That being said, this person has been able to purchase & sell numerous firearms in CA without any problems on the DROS and NICS checks, and has applied for CA, UT, and AZ CCW permits and has received all 3 without any issues. This person is again a registered voter.



IMO, I wouldn't worry about a girl who went through the same thing, unless something wasn't adding up right with her story.

winnre
06-06-2012, 1:57 PM
Expunged with 1203.4PC NO GUNS
Does she also have a 17PC GO BUY GUNS!

I'd be more concerned of the crime type and age.

6172crew
06-06-2012, 4:03 PM
From 3 pages to 1:chris:

Id like to keep this in the 2nd amendment Forum, so keep the off topic out of the Thread. Read what the OP is asking before posting.