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View Full Version : FNG, military, moving to CA with same old questions again.


mickaila
06-03-2012, 6:48 AM
Hello, I am new to this forum, and I am about to move to CA, thank you US Navy. It will be my second time stationed there--Originally back in ~90-94.

A "friend" of mine owns a number of things that are of concern for CA. I have been trying to read about the unique CA gun laws and have learned a lot here---possible raising more questions then I started with. Moreover, searching with permutations of "military" and "PCS" and "AW" have been mostly helpful.

However, a few questions still remain, and a few conclusions may be wrong. Thus far, I think:

1. One could own a full length AR with "evil mods--FWD hand grip, collapsible stock, etc", with a modification that precludes non-tool use removal of the magazine, as long as it is not on the make/model ban list found in the flow chart (link above).
2. The ban list is confusing. One thread talked about changing the look of an AR to make it no longer the "A4 flattop, RRA" for example. But isn't it the lower that defines the gun? And isn't it the upper that defines "A4 flattop"?
a. In theory couldn't one take a couple of listed guns, swap the uppers and lowers e.g. COLT upper onto an RRA A4 Flattop & vice-a-verse and be OK?
b. Or even off-list uppers onto listed lowers?
c. What about a disassembled listed gun?
3. Can an AR have a threaded barrel, as long as it doesn't use a suppressor/flash hider?

NON AR questions:
3. I am having trouble discovering if a threaded, not listed, pistol is banned.
4. It seems the >10 capacity round magazine thing is applicable to all weapons, not just long guns. But if one lived in CA back in '94, and owned them.. PCS'd out of state..PCS'd back.. wouldn't they be OK?
a. Were Beta mags made prior to 1994?
5. Are auto-out-the-front knifes also banned?
6. Similarly, what about ceramic scissors/ knives?

cheers.
mj

taperxz
06-03-2012, 6:52 AM
1. One could own a full length AR with "evil mods--FWD hand grip, collapsible stock, etc", with a modification that precludes non-tool use removal of the magazine, as long as it is not on the make/model ban list found in the flow chart (link above).

NO.

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

rromeo
06-03-2012, 7:16 AM
Hello, I am new to this forum, and I am about to move to CA, thank you US Navy. It will be my second time stationed there--Originally back in ~90-94.

A "friend" of mine owns a number of things that are of concern for CA. I have been trying to read about the unique CA gun laws and have learned a lot here---possible raising more questions then I started with. Moreover, searching with permutations of "military" and "PCS" and "AW" have been mostly helpful.

However, a few questions still remain, and a few conclusions may be wrong. Thus far, I think:

1. One could own a full length AR with "evil mods--FWD hand grip, collapsible stock, etc", with a modification that precludes non-tool use removal of the magazine, as long as it is not on the make/model ban list found in the flow chart (link above). If I'm reading correctly, YES.
2. The ban list is confusing. One thread talked about changing the look of an AR to make it no longer the "A4 flattop, RRA" for example. But isn't it the lower that defines the gun? And isn't it the upper that defines "A4 flattop"?
a. In theory couldn't one take a couple of listed guns, swap the uppers and lowers e.g. COLT upper onto an RRA A4 Flattop & vice-a-verse and be OK?
b. Or even off-list uppers onto listed lowers?
c. What about a disassembled listed gun? RRA sells rifles that are listed AWs even though the rollmarks on the lower are off-list. It is suggested that if you have an off-list RRA lower, you have an upper from any other brand.
3. Can an AR have a threaded barrel, as long as it doesn't use a suppressor/flash hider? YES. It can also have a flash hider if it has a mag lock.

NON AR questions:
3. I am having trouble discovering if a threaded, not listed, pistol is banned. Threaded pistol barrels are illegal if the magazine is detachable.
4. It seems the >10 capacity round magazine thing is applicable to all weapons, not just long guns. But if one lived in CA back in '94, and owned them.. PCS'd out of state..PCS'd back.. wouldn't they be OK? YES.
a. Were Beta mags made prior to 1994?
5. Are auto-out-the-front knifes also banned?
6. Similarly, what about ceramic scissors/ knives?

cheers.
mj

Answered as much as I know, and very little of what I think.

mickaila
06-03-2012, 9:46 AM
NO.

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

can you please explain your point a bit more.
that flowchart is how i came to my conclusion.

morrcarr67
06-03-2012, 9:59 AM
1. One could own a full length AR with "evil mods--FWD hand grip, collapsible stock, etc", with a modification that precludes non-tool use removal of the magazine, as long as it is not on the make/model ban list found in the flow chart (link above).


mj

IF a centerfire rifle has a detachable magazine it CAN NOT have any evil features.
IF a centerfire rifle has a FIXED magazine; ie using a Bullet Button magalock, it may have ALL the evil features you want.



2. The ban list is confusing. One thread talked about changing the look of an AR to make it no longer the "A4 flattop, RRA" for example. But isn't it the lower that defines the gun? And isn't it the upper that defines "A4 flattop"?
a. In theory couldn't one take a couple of listed guns, swap the uppers and lowers e.g. COLT upper onto an RRA A4 Flattop & vice-a-verse and be OK?

mj

Read the Flow Chart not some of the threads

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

Page 2 list all guns that are banned by name.

Page 1 shows you how to tell if your gun is banned by characteristics.



b. Or even off-list uppers onto listed lowers?
c. What about a disassembled listed gun?
3. Can an AR have a threaded barrel, as long as it doesn't use a suppressor/flash hider?

mj

The uppers don't really matter. You can put uppers from listed on non listed and be ok.

Disassemble guns that are listed are still illegal.

Suppressor are completely different from flash hiders. Suppressors are illegal in CA. Read my answer about fixed magazines.

I hope this helps

mickaila
06-03-2012, 1:59 PM
thank you.
looks like my friend should buy some <$100 OLLs and lower kits & bring the existing uppers with him...... and leave the Listed lowers in another state, with a relative.

rromeo
06-03-2012, 2:22 PM
IF a centerfire rifle has a detachable magazine it CAN NOT have any evil features.
IF a centerfire rifle has a FIXED magazine; ie using a Bullet Button magalock, it may have ALL the evil features you want.



Read the Flow Chart not some of the threads

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

Page 2 list all guns that are banned by name.

Page 1 shows you how to tell if your gun is banned by characteristics.




The uppers don't really matter. You can put uppers from listed on non listed and be ok.

Disassemble guns that are listed are still illegal.

Suppressor are completely different from flash hiders. Suppressors are illegal in CA. Read my answer about fixed magazines.

I hope this helps
The uppers do matter in some cases. Rock River for sure and maybe Colt, sell rifles that are listed AWs and are built on off-list lowers. It is recommended that if you have a RRA lower, you have another brand upper.

oni.dori
06-03-2012, 5:40 PM
5. Are auto-out-the-front knifes also banned?

From what I have read, and also been explained by a friend of mine that served as military as an MP (investigations) for almost a decade, and was also a California LEO for a period of time, the only exemption for you in this situation is the federally controlled Gerber auto-folder that is issued to the military; and then, you can only carry it while "on duty".

The uppers do matter in some cases. Rock River for sure and maybe Colt, sell rifles that are listed AWs and are built on off-list lowers. It is recommended that if you have a RRA lower, you have another brand upper.

Since when is an upper considered a firearm? FWIU, an upper is just parts, and wouldn't count, so long as you had an OLL.

rromeo
06-03-2012, 5:50 PM
An upper isn't a firearm. Read the list. Rock River Arms has several rifles on the Kasler list, and those rifles are built with off-list lowers. That would indicate that an OLL can still be a listed AW if built in a specific manner with specific parts. Bill Wiese has posted before that if you have a Rock River OLL, don't put a Rock River upper on it.

oni.dori
06-03-2012, 5:57 PM
Ah, I see what you mean there, I misread what you wrote. What is the take now that there are legally Cold AR-patterned rifles in CA now? From what I understand, you could legally purchase a Cold lower (so long as it is not SPECIFICALLY named on the list), build it with Colt AR parts, and be legit. Wouldn't the same go for a similar RRA build?

Intimid8tor
06-03-2012, 6:05 PM
Same doesn't go for rra because they aren't on the list the same way colts are. Rra's are on the list based on their catalog name (car a4 tactical elite) though it is nowhere to be found marked on the lower. It's probably one of the few listed rifles that can be assembled in a different manner and be legal. But, I had to leave my dpms panther 308 lower out of state when I lived there.

My warning to you is to not try to apply common sense to the laws. It will give you an aneurism and could drive you insane. The laws are what they are. Your buddy should buy some lowers and build his rifles on those if they are listed.

Threaded barrels I believe are a no no on pistols. Hence the Walter p22 debacle.

fizux
06-03-2012, 7:21 PM
This was supposed to be the solution to the PCS-to-Kalifornia-with-a-49-state-rifle problem.
http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/mawpapp.pdf

It does require a sympathetic commander to sign off; otherwise, bohica.

oni.dori
06-03-2012, 7:36 PM
Same doesn't go for rra because they aren't on the list the same way colts are. Rra's are on the list based on their catalog name (car a4 tactical elite) though it is nowhere to be found marked on the lower. It's probably one of the few listed rifles that can be assembled in a different manner and be legal. But, I had to leave my dpms panther 308 lower out of state when I lived there.

My warning to you is to not try to apply common sense to the laws. It will give you an aneurism and could drive you insane. The laws are what they are. Your buddy should buy some lowers and build his rifles on those if they are listed.

Threaded barrels I believe are a no no on pistols. Hence the Walter p22 debacle.

I see what you mean there. Ever since the judgement that allowed Colt to sell AR's in CA, it is most definitely a grey area, but I definitely wouldn't want to risk it at all either.

Threaded barrel pistols are DEFINITELY a no-no. Having said that, POSSESSING a threaded barrel for a pistol, but not having it installed on said pistol is OK. My disclaimer is that IANAL, and am just basing this information on what I have read here on CG.

dantodd
06-03-2012, 8:11 PM
Hello, I am new to this forum, and I am about to move to CA, thank you US Navy. It will be my second time stationed there--Originally back in ~90-94.

A "friend" of mine owns a number of things that are of concern for CA. I have been trying to read about the unique CA gun laws and have learned a lot here---possible raising more questions then I started with. Moreover, searching with permutations of "military" and "PCS" and "AW" have been mostly helpful.


Thank you for your service.

1. One could own a full length AR with "evil mods--FWD hand grip, collapsible stock, etc", with a modification that precludes non-tool use removal of the magazine, as long as it is not on the make/model ban list found in the flow chart (link above).

Yes. As long as it requires a tool to remove the magazine you can have "evil features" on an "off list lower." You are, however, limited to 10 rd mags or smaller with a fixed magazine weapon, it is a different part of the AWB. Also, note that CA has a unique manner of measuring overall length. In CA the OAL is measured in the "shortest fireable configuration" so collapsible or folding stocks must be collapsed/folded when measuring their OAL in CA, it is easy to get in SBR trouble that way.

2. The ban list is confusing. One thread talked about changing the look of an AR to make it no longer the "A4 flattop, RRA" for example. But isn't it the lower that defines the gun? And isn't it the upper that defines "A4 flattop"?
a. In theory couldn't one take a couple of listed guns, swap the uppers and lowers e.g. COLT upper onto an RRA A4 Flattop & vice-a-verse and be OK?
b. Or even off-list uppers onto listed lowers?
c. What about a disassembled listed gun?

A) the RRA is a unique situation as others have said. For the majority of guns it is the roll marks on the lower that are banned , so a banned Colt is banned regardless of the upper it may be possible to reconfigure an RRA into a legal configuration but lowers are < $100 and not worth the risk.

B) def. no-no if a lower is listed do not bring it into the state

C) this is a gray area. The ban officially bans listed "rifles" and a stripped lower isn't a rifle. However; the CA law enforcement and prosecutors are not very good at reading the law and it is extremely likely that if you get involved in any gun drama or even a traffic stop and a listed lower is found in your car they will prosecute you. Even if you are cleared it wil be with an arrest record and thousands of dollars in legal fees.


3. Can an AR have a threaded barrel, as long as it doesn't use a suppressor/flash hider?

Threaded barrels are not restricted on long guns.

NON AR questions:
3. I am having trouble discovering if a threaded, not listed, pistol is banned.

no threaded barrels allowed on any semi auto pistols with detachable magazines.


4. It seems the >10 capacity round magazine thing is applicable to all weapons, not just long guns. But if one lived in CA back in '94, and owned them.. PCS'd out of state..PCS'd back.. wouldn't they be OK?
a. Were Beta mags made prior to 1994?

If they see in CA before 2000 they can return to CA. If you didn't have the beta when you were here it doesn't matter if they were manufactured then or not. For more info research for "rebuild kits" here. It is generally possible to rebuild any legally owned AR magazine into an AR beta mag.

5. Are auto-out-the-front knifes also banned?

sort of. You can own a switchblade, which that is considered in CA, but you cannot carry it or transport it in your car. The military is exempt for things like duty knives while on duty. The exemption should also apply of they are moving your stuff for you. Let the Navy move your knife to your new house and just keep it there until you need it more than you worry about CA laws.

6. Similarly, what about ceramic scissors/ knives?

No restrictions on these AFAIK

you can also contact the folks at www.kniferights.org for more info.

oni.dori
06-03-2012, 8:39 PM
no threaded barrels allowed on any semi auto pistols with detachable magazines.


So threaded barrels are ok on revolvers?

mickaila
06-04-2012, 7:29 PM
thank you very much for the help. that is mostly what i was thinking, but was having a hard time assimilating it all.

The RRA one is tough. Its a very cool surplus, licensed for resale, former pre-sent to DEA, lower stamped "For government use only."

dantodd
06-04-2012, 11:25 PM
So threaded barrels are ok on revolvers?

I only has the old numbering handy but, yes, revolvers with threaded barrels appear OK AFAIK.

12276.1.(a)(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.

fizux
06-05-2012, 2:34 AM
The RRA one is tough. Its a very cool surplus

That is a total shame to get screwed because of some arbitrary rule.

Where are you PCS-ing from?

I just left my politically incorrect stuff in Virginia, and I get to shoot them when I'm there on TDY -- similar to your friend leaving them with a relative solution.

mickaila
06-05-2012, 5:07 PM
we are coming from AR. Just left Norfolk, 2y ago.

fizux
06-06-2012, 6:24 AM
we are coming from AR. Just left Norfolk, 2y ago.

Welcome back to the Hotel California.

mickaila
07-14-2012, 7:17 PM
gonna buy some OLL before moving out.
any favorites?

RickD427
07-14-2012, 8:29 PM
This was supposed to be the solution to the PCS-to-Kalifornia-with-a-49-state-rifle problem.
http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/mawpapp.pdf

It does require a sympathetic commander to sign off; otherwise, bohica.

First of all thank you for your service. California does have a lot to offer, even with our sometimes looney laws.

The problem with the Military Assault Weapon registration is two-fold:

1) It requires the endorsement of your "Base Commander" with a statement that the weapon is required in the performance of your diuties. With the Navy's regionalized commands, you've got to go pretty high up the command chain to get to an officer of that title. In California, they're all O-6's and have assigned legal staffs. It would be nice if a "Unit Commander" could sign, but that's not what the law call for.

2) Good luck getting an O-6 (with that legal staff to review) to sign a letter stating the AW is required for your official duties. I would expect a "If you need a weapon, we'll issue it to you" type of response.

SilverTauron
07-14-2012, 9:31 PM
mickalia, one more note. Check the Navy base's policy on firearms. I wouldn't know what Navy resource to use for checking that info, but in the Air Force the Base Security Forces (military police) office provides guidance on the disposition of firearms for base personnel. Id see no reason why its not the case for the Navy as well.

Don't assume that your new base has the same rules as your current one, since DoD policy permits the Base Commander to set their own guidance regarding privately owned weapons.
Some bases have odd rules that go above and beyond the state/Federal laws;some time last year an Army general in Alaska banned concealed carry off post for soldiers ,in response to some foolishness off base at a bar. That's an extreme case-some bases have policies which say guns by all personnel on or off base must be registered with the MPs, other bases don't require registration unless they're junior Enlisted , and various rules in between. Missing a detail on this topic can result in NJP, so a phone call to the cop shop on base is in order.

Marthor
07-15-2012, 9:11 AM
I'm military that moved here recently. I went through all the great lengths to research and square all my stuff away. I ended up storing all my high capacity mags, my AR and my threaded barrel 22 pistol out-of-state.

After thinking I was all set, I then found out that I had a bunch more stuff that was felony possession in CA. Nunchuks, shuriken, etc. So, don't forget about that stuff too. ;)

mickaila
02-23-2013, 1:30 PM
thanks.

i think i have lined out pretty well, the personally procured items that will be staying out of state.

believe it or not, my new concern is getting into CA before an even crazier set of rules goes into effect. i am heading out there a month or so. i think i might rent a storage space and "stage" a few OLLs in it, just to say they were in the state prior to any upcoming Feinstein laws passing.