PDA

View Full Version : Gun store FUD about 80% builds


artoaster
06-02-2012, 1:29 PM
A gun store, in their own interests, I believe will tell customers that 80% lower builds or AK build kits and lowers made from flats are in a legally grey area and purposely dissuade them from doing that.

So, in order to proceed with confidence on an 80% lower can one get a letter from both the BATF and California DOJ or is there enough experience here at Calguns to just accept the gun store info as FUD?

email
06-02-2012, 1:45 PM
It's not illegal...

GS FUD

SilverTauron
06-02-2012, 2:28 PM
I don't live in Californa:that said, gun store FUD serves a useful purpose in that it keeps reckless morons in check.

Not every gun owner checks the law before ordering parts or starting a build. Someone who is told by an FFL that making an 80% lower themselves may take that to mean they can do whatever they like-as in add prohibiting features, not being responsible in using it, etc.Next thing you know Channel 12 is showcasing yet another gun owner busted with a "cache" of .22LR bricks and an off list 80% lower with assault weapon features. If your political leadership goes off the handle at the idea of bullet buttons, imagine what happens if they discover its legal to make a lower receiver that's 80% complete.If gun store FUD prevents another dumb bill from being drafted, im all for it...IMO of course.

SJgunguy24
06-02-2012, 2:48 PM
I don't live in Californa:that said, gun store FUD serves a useful purpose in that it keeps reckless morons in check.

Not every gun owner checks the law before ordering parts or starting a build. Someone who is told by an FFL that making an 80% lower themselves may take that to mean they can do whatever they like-as in add prohibiting features, not being responsible in using it, etc.Next thing you know Channel 12 is showcasing yet another gun owner busted with a "cache" of .22LR bricks and an off list 80% lower with assault weapon features. If your political leadership goes off the handle at the idea of bullet buttons, imagine what happens if they discover its legal to make a lower receiver that's 80% complete.If gun store FUD prevents another dumb bill from being drafted, im all for it...IMO of course.

I understand where your coming from but the gun shop employees should let the customer know, that is their opinion unless they can point out the law to support their views.
When people ask me, I tell them the law as written. Tell them where to look up the info for themselves so they can make the judgment call as to how close to the line they want to go.
Then I tell them what I do to stay in compliance of federal and state laws and the reason for my actions.
The first thing I tell anybody is they need to have a firm grasp of CA AW laws because "The guy at the gun shop said it was legal" isn't going to fly when your getting rat packed by 6 cops.

As for an 80% build being legal, it is perfectly legal as long as your not doing it for profit (in business), and you violate no federal or state laws.

SilverTauron
06-02-2012, 3:04 PM
As for an 80% build being legal, it is perfectly legal as long as your not doing it for profit (in business), and you violate no federal or state laws.

Agreed, but you forgot one.

"Local" laws matter too. Having lived in a state without firearms preemption (IL), I know all too well that what's legal in City A may not be in City B. 80% lowers are legal from a Federal perspective and even at a statewide level, but this may not be the case in 'local' areas .

Example , using Los Angeles :

No sale of 'ultracompact' firearms: (enacted 2001) Dealers within LA are forbidden to process transfers of 'ultracompact' handguns. An ultracompact handgun, in LA, is defined as having "an overall length of six and three quarters inches (6.75") or less of an overall height of four and one half inches (4.5") or less, measured with the magazine detached".
This law is useless because: LA residents can still legally drive outside of CA to purchase these handguns. The restriction is entirely upon sale within the city.
Exemption to PPT between C&R holders? The penal code states the following: "No dealer shall process, pursuant to Penal Code Section 12072(d), any ultracompact firearm transaction between persons not licensed as firearms dealers or not possessing Federal Firearms Licenses." A C&R license is a Federal Firearms License, and it should actually allow C&R holders to PPT ultracompact weapons between each other through a dealer. Finding a dealer who will accept this as legal, however, may be a problem.
Exemption for C&R handguns? 55.16.f.10 exempts "the purchaser of a firearm in a collector’s series, provided that such firearm falls within the definition of a curio or relic contained in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations". A "collector's series" is not defined, which leads one to wonder if this can be taken to mean any serialized C&R handgun.
No 'ultracompact firearms' holsters, etc: It is illegal, within LA, to sell "accessories used to enable the concealment of ultracompact firearms" - i.e. holsters. There is an exemption stating that if the holster is designed for a larger firearm, it's ok. Otherwise, universal-fit holsters would be really problematic to sell.

Upon completion, is an 80% lower a rifle? A pistol? A short barreled rifle? Does it need a serial number ?( some "defacement" laws don't distinguish between a gun that has a serial number scratched out and one made without one) . A customer from LA would have serious issues to face before starting such a project, and there's no way an FFL could ever know enough about laws in an anti-gun community to properly advise the same.

FX-05 Xiuhcoatl
06-02-2012, 3:11 PM
A gun store, in their own interests, I believe will tell customers that 80% lower builds or AK build kits and lowers made from flats are in a legally grey area and purposely dissuade them from doing that.

So, in order to proceed with confidence on an 80% lower can one get a letter from both the BATF and California DOJ or is there enough experience here at Calguns to just accept the gun store info as FUD?

that sounds like shooters paradise talk to me :D

old151
06-02-2012, 3:22 PM
Yea. Local gun store to me will not help me out with 80% AK or AR.

Guy explain someone who does not know what they are doing can end up in hot water over AW and they did not want their name attached to that.

Smart move for the store, Sh**** for me.

SJgunguy24
06-02-2012, 3:49 PM
Yea. Local gun store to me will not help me out with 80% AK or AR.

Guy explain someone who does not know what they are doing can end up in hot water over AW and they did not want their name attached to that.

Smart move for the store, Sh**** for me.

They can't really help you out with an 80% build. If the work is done at their address than you will need to mark it with the info of the FFL. If they don't have a manufacturers permit they can get in trouble with the state. Then there's excise tax issues if they "help" too many people. And since it would be manufactured at the location of the FFL, you'll need to DROS and wait 10 days.
Oh and if someone brings an AW or makes one there, yes they can get into trouble.
Now if you need info on where to get kits, flats, AR 80% lowers, you have plenty of info here and on other forums.

bwiese
06-02-2012, 3:53 PM
Some of this may be byproduct of early warnings in 2005-2006.

At the time AB2728 did not exist freezing the list (2728 became active 1/1/2007).

My concern *then* was that a judge could go sideways and say it could be listed and that it looked like a 'series member' and was not otherwise listed - whereas a specifically branded make/model was clearly off list.

old151
06-02-2012, 4:03 PM
you'll need to DROS and wait 10 days.
Now if you need info on where to get kits, flats, AR 80% lowers, you have plenty of info here and on other forums.

When I wrote "will not help me out with 80%". I mean they will not even order me the stripped lower and allow me to DROS it.

I had to go elsewhere with a FFL who would DROS me a AR Stripped Lower.

goodlookin1
06-02-2012, 4:20 PM
When I wrote "will not help me out with 80%". I mean they will not even order me the stripped lower and allow me to DROS it.

I had to go elsewhere with a FFL who would DROS me a AR Stripped Lower.

You dont need to DROS an 80% lower, nor have any 10 day waits. The only time an FFL might need to watch what they do is if they are helping customers complete their 80% lowers.

Shoot, you can start selling 80% lowers without a license because it is not a firearm. But you better not do any work on it yourself.

Now a full 100% stripped lower DOES need to be DROS'ed and the 10 day wait will apply.

Maybe the gun store you dealt with doesnt do any BR sales. Or parts for BR's. Just move along and find another one who likes selling legal firearms/parts to CA citizens and appreciates their customers.

artoaster
06-02-2012, 5:41 PM
When I searched some archived stuff here at Calguns there was a frequent poster out of San Jose saying how "gunnies" were too cheap to DROS a receiver and were going to be felons or spending $10K on a lawyer over the 80% issue and that was the year 2005.

I understand LGS's not wanting to get involved with people who might build illegal firearms with stuff purchased from their stores, but part of the reason people go to look at their store is that they have questions. If their policies are conservative and they don't want to deal with AR/AK builds or other things they might just say it's their policy and not say that this or that is a felony when in fact it isn't. That's spreading fear and misinformation.

I'd much rather hear "you might ask ATF or Cal DOJ for that clarification because we sell only what we are comfortable with" or something to that effect.

Ford8N
06-02-2012, 6:02 PM
When I wrote "will not help me out with 80%". I mean they will not even order me the stripped lower and allow me to DROS it.

I had to go elsewhere with a FFL who would DROS me a AR Stripped Lower.


What store was this? Name the store, PLEASE. Help your fellow gunnies out so we can never go to the FUD spewing morons.

SJgunguy24
06-02-2012, 6:19 PM
When I wrote "will not help me out with 80%". I mean they will not even order me the stripped lower and allow me to DROS it.

I had to go elsewhere with a FFL who would DROS me a AR Stripped Lower.

Anybody can order an 80% lower as it's not a firearm. If you don't mind me asking do you look young?
I ask because it is illegal for an FFL to transfer a 100% stripped lower to any persons under the age of 21. Maybe they thought you were too young? I dunno, but I've never seen any shop that sells 80% flats or lowers. If I was going to sell stuff like that it sure wouldn't be where I have an FFL just because the state can walk in and start messing with you during business hours.

DarkSoul
06-02-2012, 6:52 PM
It's sounds like to me this gun shop is using BS scare tactics to try and sell you a complete rifle (I.e., make more money).

It is completely legal to purchase and complete an 80% lower, however, you need to do certain things, you need to be legally able to purchase/possess a firearm, you need to follow the flow chart for a legal AR15 rifle and not install any evil components. And as was mentioned, you cannot complete one for someone else or sell it to someone else.

I literally just spent 2 hours on the phone with a 2nd Amendmant attorney in regards to building 80% lowers.

artoaster
06-02-2012, 8:42 PM
... I literally just spent 2 hours on the phone with a 2nd Amendmant attorney in regards to building 80% lowers.

Two reasons why the 80% route, one is because I want to do a pistol build with a 10.5" barrel and our state has made this particular item too difficult to obtain and two because I think it's an opportunity and a door that should always remain open for an american citizen to innovate with regard to constitutionally allowed small arms.

motorhead
06-02-2012, 11:24 PM
80% receivers are not guns. you can buy direct, by mail. the mfr. will generaly have an atf "not a firearm" letter that you can get to ease your mind in that respect. there is no set standard for 80%, each one is usually submitted to atf for approval before production/sale. doj won't give you ANYTHING. just asking will open a can of worms.
if you're building off an 80%, there's NOTHING you need from an ffl.

jingerale
06-03-2012, 12:44 AM
haha, I was at the Vallejo gun show today. walked by a booth, two guys in it. Had a nice AR pistol on the counter, with a betamag of course. we started talking about pistols and I mentioned I just did one from an 80%. Guy immediately goes, did you register it? I'm like what? He says, even if it's an 80%, if it's a pistol, you must register it.

I gave him the bull**** look and said, well in that case, I don't have one. I was just kidding, and walked away.

DarkSoul
06-03-2012, 5:36 AM
There is a lot of mis-information out there in regards to "80%" lowers, as a matter of fact, even the 80% is sort of a misnomer, it is up to the ATF to determine what constitutes an incomplete lower, not a percentage, but we are just splitting hairs on that.

In regards to AR pistol builds, this is still a very gray area in the law (again, a point of conversation with our attorney), and needs to be approached very carefully, even single shot exemptions. I AM NOT A LAWYER, but per the reccomendation of our attorney I will be staying away from them, and they will not be allowed to be worked on at our build parties.

Please do not take that as the letter of the law, it is our/my decision after speaking with a well qualified 2nd amendment attorney, that it's very gray, and we just don't want the risk. If you have concerns specific to the pistol builds, I suggest you pony up a couple hundred bucks, and call a Calguns attorney. For a few hundred bucks, it's cheap security compared to "doing it wrong" and ending up in the back of a police cruiser.

Still, "80%" AR rifle builds are perfectly legal, so go forth and build :D

tenpercentfirearms
06-03-2012, 7:47 AM
First of all, this seems to be a generic "this is what I think gun stores will tell me" thread, not a specific gun store is saying anything thread.

Yes, if you come into my shop and ask about 80% builds I am going to tell you the truth. "I do not know anything about them, I just buy complete lowers and don't worry about it. Sorry I can't help."

I do not care about 80% builds, therefore I have not studied the law about them nor do I care to. For the vast majority of my customers, the time and energy it takes to complete an 80% build is no where near the savings of an 80% build, so it honestly isn't a big deal. So I don't need to protect my profits. I simply don't care.

As has been stated, there is nothing I can do with 80% builds that you can't do yourself. Except possibly get myself in trouble if it really isn't an 80% and I should be logging it into my book and I am not. So therefore, it again isn't worth it to me to even touch anything having to do with 80%.

I just find it entertaining that this whole thread is based on the notion that you get nothing but FUD from a gun shop, yet there is actually no evidence of that happening in this thread. Just FUD from online forum posters about the potential FUD of gun stores. :rolleyes:

oni.dori
06-03-2012, 4:54 PM
A gun store, in their own interests, I believe will tell customers that 80% lower builds or AK build kits and lowers made from flats are in a legally grey area and purposely dissuade them from doing that.

So, in order to proceed with confidence on an 80% lower can one get a letter from both the BATF and California DOJ or is there enough experience here at Calguns to just accept the gun store info as FUD?

They are simply BS'ing you so that you buy something from them, instead of saving money and doing it yourself (and learning something along the way). They are just trying to ensure job security, and nothing more.