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badogg
06-01-2012, 8:52 AM
Hey all, I have a S&W M&P 15 that I just got. I am really green on the AR scene and I'm looking to upgrade the hand guard to a quad rail. I see different sizes of them, some say for Carbine and others for mid-length.

Is my assumption that the Carbine is a shorter barrel length, and my 16" barrel would be a mid-length?

Thanks a lot!

joelogic
06-01-2012, 9:09 AM
You can put any length handguard on a 16" barrel depending on the gas block.

badogg
06-01-2012, 9:14 AM
You can put any length handguard on a 16" barrel depending on the gas block.

So I should measure my existing hand guard is to get the correct length to get a proper quad rail?

artoaster
06-01-2012, 9:16 AM
Measure the handguard on your AR it will be 7" most likely and that's a carbine length handguard. A mid-length handguard is 9" and will not fit unless you chop your FSB (front sight block) or your carbine has a low profile gas block which a longer handguard would cover. In that case it couldn't drop in but would have to be a free float tube or handguard.

joelogic
06-01-2012, 9:22 AM
What gas block do you have on there? Post a pic.

Get any length you want. Check out the rifle gallery to find the look you are going for. Rails are heavy, maybe a smooth tube is better.

How do you want to hold your rifle?

badogg
06-01-2012, 9:28 AM
This is the model I have:
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_790054_-1_772660_772659_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

Here are a couple of pics I took that might help:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/542353_3757005878759_1987522035_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/581044_3757010878884_1084856827_33450578_937446378 _n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/484163_3757014598977_425445530_n.jpg

ptgarcia
06-01-2012, 9:28 AM
Carbine, mid-length, and rifle length refer to the gas system length. Depending on your gas block and hand guard attachment method you can use just about any length guard you choose, but if you have an A2 front sight gas block like pictured below you're stuck with the carbine length (7") guard unless you change out the gas block fo something low profile that fits inside the hand guard.

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/large/980/980577.jpg


Edit: I see you have a railed gas block, but its not low profile so you're going to need a what they usually call a carbine length (7") hand guard.

By the way, I think your rear sight is on backwards.

AlphaOps
06-01-2012, 10:46 AM
You've got a carbine length gas tube if indeed the pic is JUST LIKE your rifle.
The only choices for quad rails are 7-7.25" rail systems. The problem is the gas block as it is not a low profile gas block.
Of course you could change out the gas to a low profile GB and go with a 9-15" rail system...
Welcome to the world of black rifle customization, you just took the red pill.

Look at:
TROY
Midwest Industries
Daniel Defense
Larue

These are just some of your choices.

Annex138
06-01-2012, 10:52 AM
I think your front and rear sites are both backwards

joelogic
06-01-2012, 10:57 AM
Why do you want a quad rail anyway?

MUKAK
06-01-2012, 11:15 AM
the front sight looks horrific lol


This is the model I have:
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_790054_-1_772660_772659_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

Here are a couple of pics I took that might help:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/542353_3757005878759_1987522035_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/581044_3757010878884_1084856827_33450578_937446378 _n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/484163_3757014598977_425445530_n.jpg

badogg
06-01-2012, 11:21 AM
I think your front and rear sites are both backwards
Possibly. Like I said, I'm a total newbie. :)


Why do you want a quad rail anyway?
Well, for one I like the look and the additional options it provides which leads to two which is I would like to put a vertical fore-grip on it off the bottom of the quad rail.


the front sight looks horrific lol

Why so? I had to go cheap on the sights because I was putting down a lot of cash on the rifle that had no sights. Sights are definitely at the top of the list for me... ;)

IntoForever
06-01-2012, 11:50 AM
What area are you in? I have a quad rail I removed from my 16 upper I could show you. it came with the upper, I didn't like it due to the monstrous size especially with the rubber rail protectors.

ExtremeX
06-01-2012, 11:58 AM
Why do you want a quad rail anyway?

Hes new to the AR stuff... everyone should experience the joy being a ninja at one point or another.

jcslone
06-01-2012, 12:09 PM
congrats on your Smitty and congrats to your aquisition of Black Rifle Disease (BRD)...the only cure is to keep buying more! :D

I had the same model (M&P 15 ORC) that you have now and you're gonna absolutely LOVE that rifle! She'll take all kinds of abuse without ever complaining once and like the other posters have said...the customization options are simply endless.

If you want an inexpensive rail, look at Troy and Yankee Hill Machinery (YHM). This one for example: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Yankee-Hill-Machine-Tactical-Free-Float-Carbine-p/yhm-9631%20ff%20carbine.htm would be a good starter rail. YHM makes some good products and for $100 you can't go wrong.

badogg
06-01-2012, 12:12 PM
What area are you in? I have a quad rail I removed from my 16 upper I could show you. it came with the upper, I didn't like it due to the monstrous size especially with the rubber rail protectors.

I'm in the North Bay Area near Santa Rosa. Rohnert Park to be exact.

badogg
06-01-2012, 12:19 PM
congrats on your Smitty and congrats to your aquisition of Black Rifle Disease (BRD)...the only cure is to keep buying more! :D

I had the same model (M&P 15 ORC) that you have now and you're gonna absolutely LOVE that rifle! She'll take all kinds of abuse without ever complaining once and like the other posters have said...the customization options are simply endless.

If you want an inexpensive rail, look at Troy and Yankee Hill Machinery (YHM). This one for example: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Yankee-Hill-Machine-Tactical-Free-Float-Carbine-p/yhm-9631%20ff%20carbine.htm would be a good starter rail. YHM makes some good products and for $100 you can't go wrong.

Thanks for the link. I'm a little confused about what makes it a Carbine. I thought it had something to do with a shorter barrel length, but I guess mine is a carbine due to the gas tube?

Again, sorry for the embarrassing newbie questions. The only other rifles I've had are my Marlin Model 60, and my dad's Winchester 30-30 which I'll own someday (later rather than sooner hopefully). So all of this AR stuff is kind of overwhelming when you first get in to it. :)

ptgarcia
06-01-2012, 12:42 PM
Thanks for the link. I'm a little confused about what makes it a Carbine. I thought it had something to do with a shorter barrel length, but I guess mine is a carbine due to the gas tube?

Again, sorry for the embarrassing newbie questions. The only other rifles I've had are my Marlin Model 60, and my dad's Winchester 30-30 which I'll own someday (later rather than sooner hopefully). So all of this AR stuff is kind of overwhelming when you first get in to it. :)



It has nothing to do with barrel length. It refers to the gas system. For instance, you can have a carbine, mid-length or rifle length gas system with a 16" barrel.

ExtremeX
06-01-2012, 12:57 PM
It has nothing to do with barrel length. It refers to the gas system. For instance, you can have a carbine, mid-length or rifle length gas system with a 16" barrel.

+1 OP: If you are serious about learning about technical side of all this stuff there is a boat load of reading on the web. Just use google search, you will find plenty of technical detail about the pros, cons, and the correlation between barrel length, dewell times, and gas systems length, and pressures associated with it. There is a technical reason to pick one over the other, and a method to all this madness.

http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/gas-systems.shtml

badogg
06-01-2012, 1:03 PM
+1 OP: If you are serious about learning about technical side of all this stuff there is a boat load of reading on the web. Just use google search, you will find plenty of technical detail about the pros, cons, and the correlation between barrel length, dewell times, and gas systems length, and pressures associated with it. There is a technical reason to pick one over the other, and a method to all this madness.

http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/gas-systems.shtml

Honestly, that is where I was getting confused was via google searches because there is a ton of sites that indicate that a carbine is simply a lighter shorter rifle, or that it is simply a barrel that has a shorter than 16" barrel. I think I'm confusing myself with all the different info I'm digging up via those searches.

artoaster
06-01-2012, 1:09 PM
Ugly as they are (sorry), shoot with those flip-up iron sights for a while until you decide what to do next.

That gas block has got to be replaced at some point later on with something low profile then you can put a good tube over it and at least get a better front flip up iron sight that fits on the tube via a rail.

After that you might want a better rear BUIS (back up iron sight).

BTW, what are those existing iron sights? Brand, price?

badogg
06-01-2012, 1:18 PM
Ugly as they are (sorry), shoot with those flip-up iron sights for a while until you decide what to do next.

That gas block has got to be replaced at some point later on with something low profile then you can put a good tube over it and at least get a better front flip up iron sight that fits on the tube via a rail.

After that you might want a better rear BUIS (back up iron sight).

BTW, what are those existing iron sights? Brand, price?

They are NcStar brand and were about 30.00 a peice.

Edit: Front was 27.99, and the Rear was 34.99 Plus CA Sales Tax so it was like 5000.00. Lol

ExtremeX
06-01-2012, 1:26 PM
Honestly, that is where I was getting confused was via google searches because there is a ton of sites that indicate that a carbine is simply a lighter shorter rifle, or that it is simply a barrel that has a shorter than 16" barrel. I think I'm confusing myself with all the different info I'm digging up via those searches.

Carbine vs middy vs rifle really has nothing to do with weight. It only describes the type of gas system. The barrel length and barrel profile will determine weight.

Ill TRY break it down short and simple... without going all technical on you with charts, graphs, and figures.

Carbine gas system was really intended for a 14.5" barrel.

Carbine gas system are also found in 16" barrels, but due to the extended dwell time (time the round spends in the barrel after it passes the gas hole) 16" carbines are typically over-gassed (more pressure) causing them to have a harsher felt recoil.

Midlength gas systems are better suited for 16" barrels. It improves/corrects the dwell times back down to what it was in a carbine 14.5.

You can also find a 14.5 midlength gas system, which tends to fall on the under-gassed side due to shorter dwell times, but they shoot real smooth and soft. Lower power ammo may cause short stroking problems. From a reliability standpoint, its better to over-gas than under-gas, but its better just to go with the correct recommended gas system based on dwell times.

I'm not going to say one is better or worse than the other. I own a 16" in both carbine and middy. I prefer the middy. I would also like a 14.5" middy when I get around to it. I'm currently working on a 18" but I picked a rifle length gas system for personal preference reasons. There are technical and personal preference reasons to pick one over the other. Then you get into the buffer system, springs and buffer weights to adjust for timing and also modify the cyclic rate of the firearm, some people mess with this just to try and get it to shoot even softer. All the above variables are directly related and effect each other and how the weapon performance.

While its backed up by math and science, Its also argued by some that sometimes the real world end result of some of these variations may or may not be really worth the time or expense since the differences may be small, but there are differences.

I'm not a expert, but Ive done a lot of reading and some testing. If any of this information is wrong someone can correct me.

stix213
06-01-2012, 1:42 PM
Why do you want a quad rail anyway?

Eh quad rails are cool. They have a good look to them, and when you're going 10 round fixed magazine rather than featureless you've already made compromises for the looks. Not my first choice for doing any kind of run and gun though weight wise.

badogg
06-01-2012, 1:55 PM
Carbine vs middy vs rifle really has nothing to do with weight. It only describes the type of gas system. The barrel length and barrel profile will determine weight.

Ill TRY break it down short and simple... without going all technical on you with charts, graphs, and figures.

Carbine gas system was really intended for a 14.5" barrel.

Carbine gas system are also found in 16" barrels, but due to the extended dwell time (time the round spends in the barrel after it passes the gas hole) 16" carbines are typically over-gassed (more pressure) causing them to have a harsher felt recoil.

Midlength gas systems are better suited for 16" barrels. It improves/corrects the dwell times back down to what it was in a carbine 14.5.

You can also find a 14.5 midlength gas system, which tends to fall on the under-gassed side due to shorter dwell times, but they shoot real smooth and soft. Lower power ammo may cause short stroking problems. From a reliability standpoint, its better to over-gas than under-gas, but its better just to go with the correct recommended gas system based on dwell times.

I'm not going to say one is better or worse than the other. I own a 16" in both carbine and middy. I prefer the middy. I would also like a 14.5" middy when I get around to it. I'm currently working on a 18" but I picked a rifle length gas system for personal preference reasons. There are technical and personal preference reasons to pick one over the other. Then you get into the buffer system, springs and buffer weights to adjust for timing and also modify the cyclic rate of the firearm, some people mess with this just to try and get it to shoot even softer. All the above variables are directly related and effect each other and how the weapon performance.

While its backed up by math and science, Its also argued by some that sometimes the real world end result of some of these variations may or may not be really worth the time or expense since the differences may be small, but there are differences.

I'm not a expert, but Ive done a lot of reading and some testing. If any of this information is wrong someone can correct me.

Great, I think that makes sense actually. Thank you for spending the time to write that up. :)

I really like the way the recoil feels on it, so I think I'll leave the gas system alone on it. Really, I was looking at the rail's to add the ability for easy options like fore grip and bi-pod.

ExtremeX
06-01-2012, 2:49 PM
Great, I think that makes sense actually. Thank you for spending the time to write that up. :)
.

Ur Welcome


I really like the way the recoil feels on it, so I think I'll leave the gas system alone on it.

The gas port is physically drilled into the barrel so its not like you really have a choice... That's a decision that needs to be made at the time of purchase. You have a carbine, it will always be a carbine unless you decide to change the barrel.

I don't want to get too into the recoil impulse thing since its kind of subjective, but for me personally, the longer gas system and heavier buffers plus a muzzle brake really keep the rifle pretty flat. For fast competition shooting and mag dumps on steel targets are a lot easier to control and keep rounds on target.

HK Dave
06-01-2012, 2:58 PM
Hes new to the AR stuff... everyone should experience the joy being a ninja at one point or another.

Agreed. ^^

While i've "mostly" grown out of the ninja stage... i still have a 15 pound AR laying around somewhere. ;)

triggs75
06-01-2012, 3:05 PM
Here is a good picture from Fatal Kitty showing the different gas tube lengths

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6055/6284852777_6959712be8.jpg

I know you already have a complete rifle, but this thread here has some great information for you to help you understand the AR better.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/226782_Assemble_your_own_LOWER__UPPER__FREE_FLOAT_ _TRIGGER__GAS_BLOCK___Step_by_step_instructions_.h tml

Chad

ExtremeX
06-01-2012, 3:09 PM
Agreed. ^^

While i've "mostly" grown out of the ninja stage... i still have a 15 pound AR laying around somewhere. ;)

haha... Ive been there and done that too so I try not to hate when someone is just exploring what the platform is all about. I remember when I bought my first AR... I didn't know jack about em, I didn't want to build one, and my only real requirement was it HAD to have a free-float quad rail. Then one day you come back down to earth and own something that actually makes practical sense in terms of form and function...

Now I custom build all my ARs, I get exactly what I want and need. And I only use free-float modular tube style hand guards. Its lighter, cheaper, more comfortable to use, and I can still add small section of rail where I need it. If I wise man told me to do this for my 1st AR I would probably wouldn't have listened to them anyways and end up with 4 miles of rail space for things I dont need.

I am however still looking for a picatinny cup holder... so, there is still a little mall ninja in all of us.

whiskeyhotel
06-01-2012, 8:04 PM
I like my A2 front sight so I got an extended carbine free float handguard from Apex Machining (http://www.apexhandguard.com/store.php?seller=ApexMachiningCompany&navt1=19974).

It has a slot cut out of the top to fit around the sight/gas block.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JabWAFBGBDY/T8FE8K551TI/AAAAAAAAHIM/6w7_FRlGljY/s800/DSC_9179.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-p1Zc7giuaxk/T8FE8WC7szI/AAAAAAAAHIQ/oU8hnoBZwXc/s800/DSC_9177.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-X1HwlYWKBic/T8FE8C4tBMI/AAAAAAAAHJc/xCPWHv0Akp0/s800/DSC_9178.jpg

Mine is a Gen1 model so the "gator grip" checkering is only on the mid portion of the guard. The current models (Gen3) have the checkering the full length and is a bit lighter in weight. All models clamp onto the stock barrel nut. I installed mine but cutting off my delta ring/spring/retaining ring.

Rails can be mounted anywhere you see a slot. There are also four mounting holes for QD sling mounts.

ExtremeX
06-02-2012, 1:09 AM
whiskeyhotel,

Now that is a sweet looking handguard. Right in tune with the type of stuff I like.

I ended up with a Samson Evolution rail

http://www.samson-mfg.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/Samson_Evolution_Series_12.jpg

I also like the Troy TRX and VTAC a lot too...
http://www.parallaxtactical.com/store/images/STRX-ELI-C8BT-00-2.jpg
http://palmettostatearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/v/t/vtac-rail-trx-extreme-by-troy-11-5_355.jpg

kAnJii
06-02-2012, 6:30 AM
Beautiful rails. Does it get hot real bad after firing a bunch?

xpbprox
06-02-2012, 7:02 AM
Dan you get a bi-pod on the bottom of that Samphson evo rail? And that one comes in a 15" I think too?

badogg
06-02-2012, 8:52 AM
http://palmettostatearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/v/t/vtac-rail-trx-extreme-by-troy-11-5_355.jpg


I really like that one


Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2

calishine
06-02-2012, 1:13 PM
Time and money permitting, upgrade your rifle as you see fit with the new found knowledge listed in this thread, Calguns and the rest of the web.

PM me for guidance if you like.

readysetgo
06-02-2012, 3:04 PM
OMG, am I the only one frustrated by this thread?

OP! Let me give this a shot.

First, you really should turn those sights around, take a new pic and post that. :D

What YOU have is:

1. 16" barrel
2. Carbine length gas system
3. Receiver rail height gas block

Got it? Now, for simplicity's sake #1 above will not affect your original question, asking about putting on a new handguard.

#2 and #3 are going to affect your decision.

What you want to look for is a CARBINE LENGTH quad rail that is "DROP IN" assembled.

The reason you want a CARBINE LENGTH quad rail that can be "DROPPED IN" is...

That is what will fit on your rifle the way it's currently assembled!

Some others here are sending you down alternative routes that WILL REQUIRE MODIFICATION of your existing set up.

There are literally dozens of possible scenarios that you could end up with.

My suggestion for you is to grab this:
http://www.amazon.com/UTG-Model-Carbine-Length-System/dp/B003T77CKM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338677579&sr=8-1

This item will be easy to install, fit your rifle out of the box and is an affordable price (you mentioned budget).

It'll be a little heavier than other fancy rails that others have posted and it's a less than "mil spec" aluminum alloy, but they're made in the States (UTG Pro only) and it's a lot less than most other rails.

I hope this helps, just my 2 cents.

Respectfully,
Ready

nitroxdiver
06-02-2012, 7:09 PM
Ready, thank you. To the OP. First, congrats on your rifle. You are going to love it.
Second, reread readys post above. You do not need to change gas blocks, barrels etc.
You have a carbine length gas system, you need a carbine length drop in 2 piece rail. Rails are fine. You may love or hate it, only you can decide. Some really good rails are the Daniel defense omega, and knights armament ras. Both are 2 piece drop in. There are a lot more, but I am not familiar with others. Go on YouTube and watch a video on how to install them. I can do a KAC ras in about 5 minutes. They are simple, but you need to understand how it goes on, and how the stock handguards come off. Easiest to watch on YouTube.

Now, I'm sorry to say, but those sights are pretty cheap. Ncstar is not known for making quality products. They may work, and I wish you the best, but if you want some solid recommendations on some good adjustable sights that will allow you to learn to be a rifleman, let me know and I'll shoot you some info. As they currently sit on your rifle, they are technically on backwards.

Never appologize for being new. If not for new people, our sport and freedoms would die. The biggest reason I hang out on calguns is to actually try and help folks by sharing my past experiences, mistakes, and successes.

You picked a great first rifle. Get your sights squared away, get a sling, get a rail if you feel you want one, and go puts some rounds outta that baby. When you are ready for a weekend of learning to really become a better marksman, look into an Appleseed shoot.
Take care and have fun!

badogg
06-08-2012, 12:00 PM
Ready, thank you. To the OP. First, congrats on your rifle. You are going to love it.
Second, reread readys post above. You do not need to change gas blocks, barrels etc.
You have a carbine length gas system, you need a carbine length drop in 2 piece rail. Rails are fine. You may love or hate it, only you can decide. Some really good rails are the Daniel defense omega, and knights armament ras. Both are 2 piece drop in. There are a lot more, but I am not familiar with others. Go on YouTube and watch a video on how to install them. I can do a KAC ras in about 5 minutes. They are simple, but you need to understand how it goes on, and how the stock handguards come off. Easiest to watch on YouTube.

Now, I'm sorry to say, but those sights are pretty cheap. Ncstar is not known for making quality products. They may work, and I wish you the best, but if you want some solid recommendations on some good adjustable sights that will allow you to learn to be a rifleman, let me know and I'll shoot you some info. As they currently sit on your rifle, they are technically on backwards.

Never appologize for being new. If not for new people, our sport and freedoms would die. The biggest reason I hang out on calguns is to actually try and help folks by sharing my past experiences, mistakes, and successes.

You picked a great first rifle. Get your sights squared away, get a sling, get a rail if you feel you want one, and go puts some rounds outta that baby. When you are ready for a weekend of learning to really become a better marksman, look into an Appleseed shoot.
Take care and have fun!

Thank you and everyone else for all the information. I took back those sights and ended up getting this:

http://www.ncstar.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=325

http://www.ncstar.com/ProdImages/DLB140R_db.jpg

While I understand that ncstar might not be the best quality products, I couldn't beat the price of an even swap for the iron sights. The guy at the gun shop was really apologetic about the problems I had with the sights and felt really bad about it and offered this up as an even exchange. So I took it.

I'll probably get some better iron sights on down the road too, but I think this will be fine for my needs. :)

tacticalcity
06-08-2012, 12:57 PM
Thanks for the link. I'm a little confused about what makes it a Carbine. I thought it had something to do with a shorter barrel length, but I guess mine is a carbine due to the gas tube?

Again, sorry for the embarrassing newbie questions. The only other rifles I've had are my Marlin Model 60, and my dad's Winchester 30-30 which I'll own someday (later rather than sooner hopefully). So all of this AR stuff is kind of overwhelming when you first get in to it. :)

It is the length of handguards and gas system that defines it as either carbine, mid-length or rifle length. Once you remove the handguards it will make more sense. Hidden under neath them is a gas tube. They come in 3 lengths. Handguards used to only come in 3 lengths, but these days there are all kinds of goofy things out there.

Your rifle has the gas block in a specific place, and the hole for that gas block is drilled into the barrel at a specific place. So you need a handguard that either fits behind it, just like your current ones do, or is specifically designed to wrap around it exactly where it is (since it is railed and a not low profile gas block which is much smaller and can fit under almost any length rail).

With your setup you can use a drop-in 4 rail handguard and install it yourself using a handguard removal tool (cheap and comes in handy). KAC, Midwest Industries, TROY and YHM all make excellent versions of these. The one you see the troops using is made by KAC and you often see them selling them off unused on eBay. Be careful, all of those manufacturers make non-drop in versions as well. So pay attention when ordering.

With your setup you can also use the Daniel Defense Omega model drop-in 4 rail handguard that is free floating. Which means it does not touch and thus resonate against the barrel. Not really necessary on a non-precision rifle but you can spend your money however you want. Again you would use a simple handguard removal tool to install it. Be careful, not only does Daniel Defense make drop-in verions they also name them in a confusing way. You want the Omega line, not the Omega X line.

With your setup you can PROBABLY use the carbine extended handguards designed to wrap around a front sight post, but maybe not. Depends on if they interfer with your gas block which is shaped differently. You won't know until you try. Again, be careful when ordering. You want one with the hole for the front sight to be in the carbine length position. They make these for midlength as well. So you need to pay attention.

With the HELP of a gunsmith you can use regular non-free floating handguards. Your barrel will need to be removed, some parts will be taken off, and they everything put back together again. This is expensive and a pain in the arse. Midwest Industries and few others make 2 peice free floating rales that will not require a gunsmith, but do require you to use dremil to remove your "delta-ring assembly". This is very easy to do, but not for those who are affraid of power tools or careless.

What you cannot use is 9", 10" 11", 12" or 13" (and so on) handguards without a hole for a front sight post in the correct spot for a carbine length rifle without a gunsmiths help and removing lots of parts that are better left alone. Which pretty much means anything that says it is for midlength or full length rifles.

In short, look for it to say Carbine Length, and if it says "extended" make sure it shows a hole for the front sight post otherwise you are ordering the wrong thing. The word "drop-in" means you can install it yourself. The word "free-floating" probably means you will need the help of a gunsmith.

tacticalcity
06-08-2012, 1:05 PM
Thank you and everyone else for all the information. I took back those sights and ended up getting this:

http://www.ncstar.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=325

http://www.ncstar.com/ProdImages/DLB140R_db.jpg

While I understand that ncstar might not be the best quality products, I couldn't beat the price of an even swap for the iron sights. The guy at the gun shop was really apologetic about the problems I had with the sights and felt really bad about it and offered this up as an even exchange. So I took it.

I'll probably get some better iron sights on down the road too, but I think this will be fine for my needs. :)

Not trying to be mean, but the NC Star stuff is meant for 22lrs, pellet guns and airsoft. 223 might not have a lot of recoil, but it does have some. Probably too much for the NC Star stuff to hold zero. Everything I have seen of theres was really cheaply made and not meant for real guns. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

My recommendation is to save up for a set of Troy Industries metal iron sights. There might be cheaper sights out there, but the Troy sights work really well, stand up to abuse and really are worth the money.

Red dots are nice. I like 'em. But you don't need them. And if you can't afford a really good one, they are not worth it. Too failure prone. A really good set of irons, never gonna fail ya.

Dakine_surf
06-08-2012, 1:29 PM
Not trying to be mean, but the NC Star stuff is meant for 22lrs, pellet guns and airsoft. 223 might not have a lot of recoil, but it does have some. Probably too much for the NC Star stuff to hold zero. Everything I have seen of theres was really cheaply made and not meant for real guns. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

My recommendation is to save up for a set of Troy Industries metal iron sights. There might be cheaper sights out there, but the Troy sights work really well, stand up to abuse and really are worth the money.

Red dots are nice. I like 'em. But you don't need them. And if you can't afford a really good one, they are not worth it. Too failure prone. A really good set of irons, never gonna fail ya.

^^+1 to this... I am not saying this to be mean at all, and I understand that you got it as a trade, but that red dot is not going to allow you to become a better shot. It might be ok for 10-50 yard plinking, but you will be doing your rifle and yourself a disservice if you limit your self like that. The MOA on that sight is going to cover most precision targets and not allow you to become a better marksman.

save up and buy a good set of adjustable iron sights (I suggest troy) then take an Appleseed course, they will teach you to shoot with irons out to 400 yards and take 250 yard head shots... it will help you fundamentally