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View Full Version : Who wants to be the next "Nordyke?"


dantodd
06-01-2012, 8:11 AM
Since the 9th has accepted the counties offer to allow gun shows with the requirement of tethers who wants to sue them after the first gun show on county property? I do not know how anyone can follow the ordinance, even in its new and looser interpretation, while exercising the ability to bring a Gun into a gun show as permitted in PC 27340 (http://law.justia.com/codes/california/2011/pen/27300-27350/). It would seem that this would fall under the state's preemption statute.

OleCuss
06-01-2012, 9:08 AM
Have the parameters of "secured" been fleshed out in detail at this time? I get the impression that the 9th made it fairly clear that the solution had to be workable so I expect the county will make reasonable accomodations.

And OK, I'm not overly confident that they will make the reasonable accomodations, but if they're smart they will. . .

Crom
06-01-2012, 9:39 AM
Not sure I understand the OP. Don Kilmer thought that the ordinance was fine as long as the guns were tethered to the tables. It was the County's suggestion after all.

If the guns are tethered it still allows the prospective buyers to handle and inspect the piece. It also allows a more secure environment for the vendors so that pieces don't leave unauthorized (stealing).

I don't see the problem.

stix213
06-01-2012, 10:30 AM
Not sure I understand the OP. Don Kilmer thought that the ordinance was fine as long as the guns were tethered to the tables. It was the County's suggestion after all.

If the guns are tethered it still allows the prospective buyers to handle and inspect the piece. It also allows a more secure environment for the vendors so that pieces don't leave unauthorized (stealing).

I don't see the problem.

27340 allows individuals, as in non-vendors, to bring in their own guns. No tables involved.

dantodd
06-01-2012, 10:41 AM
Not sure I understand the OP. Don Kilmer thought that the ordinance was fine as long as the guns were tethered to the tables. It was the County's suggestion after all.

If the guns are tethered it still allows the prospective buyers to handle and inspect the piece. It also allows a more secure environment for the vendors so that pieces don't leave unauthorized (stealing).

I don't see the problem.

You should read the linked law. State law specifically allows for people to bring guns into a gun show for purposes of doing a ppt so how does the county think they should "tether" their guns?

And furthermore, if I can bring my individually owned weapon in without a tether for purposes of engaging in commerce how can it be illegal for a vendor to have an untethered gun?

vantec08
06-01-2012, 11:35 AM
You should read the linked law. State law specifically allows for people to bring guns into a gun show for purposes of doing a ppt so how does the county think they should "tether" their guns?

And furthermore, if I can bring my individually owned weapon in without a tether for purposes of engaging in commerce how can it be illegal for a vendor to have an untethered gun?


Private party "tethers" - - - - hmmmmm - -- - like, a holster?
nahhhhh

Crom
06-01-2012, 12:40 PM
You should read the linked law. State law specifically allows for people to bring guns into a gun show for purposes of doing a ppt so how does the county think they should "tether" their guns?

You raise an interesting point. In my opinion Alameda County will probably amend county ordinance 9.12.120 (http://library.municode.com/HTML/16425/level2/TIT9PUPEMOWE_CH9.12FIDAWE.html)(F) and grant an exemption to gun show participants. It is the same action they took with respect to the Scottish games. See quote below.


During the same period, representatives of the Scottish Caledonian Games ("the Scottish Games") inquired about the effect of the new law on the activities they traditionally held on the fairgrounds. Those activities include reenactments, using period firearms loaded with blank ammunition, of historic battles. After the inquiries, the County amended the Ordinance to add several exceptions. Importantly, the Ordinance no longer applies to

[t]he possession of a firearm by an authorized participant in a motion picture, television, video, dance, or theatrical production or event, when the participant lawfully uses the firearm as part of that production or event, provided that when such firearm is not in the actual possession of the authorized participant, it is secured to prevent unauthorized use.


And furthermore, if I can bring my individually owned weapon in without a tether for purposes of engaging in commerce how can it be illegal for a vendor to have an untethered gun?

I think there is a difference between a participant bringing an individually owned gun for private party sale (PPT), and a vendor bringing in many guns to sell. To put it another way, Individual = (1) gun and possession is retained at all times, whereas vendor = many guns. Many guns may not be possessed by the vendor at all times therefore tethers will be required.

I don't know. I am not going to wordsmith an exemption here, just stating how I see things.

In thinking deeper about this, if the county does not amend the ordinance allowing for individuals to PPT, then it could raise the specter of more litigation. And that begs the original question... Do we have an individual right to sell our guns on County owned property?

bulgron
06-01-2012, 1:17 PM
What about ammo?

Drivedabizness
06-01-2012, 2:58 PM
the whole thing makes me sick

dantodd
06-01-2012, 3:45 PM
What about ammo?

I saw that raised in the general Nordyke thread. I am sure that Don has learned a lot in the past 12 years.

hoffmang
06-01-2012, 4:30 PM
State law prohibits LTC'ers from bringing a loaded firearm into a gun show.

-Gene

Apocalypsenerd
06-01-2012, 6:46 PM
So is this a win for Nordyke? Is the case over?

dantodd
06-01-2012, 7:01 PM
So is this a win for Nordyke? Is the case over?

For a more full discussion you should check the main, stickied, thread. In short the 9th said that since the county has suddenly decided to permit gun shows there is no longer any controversy. So the shows may go on and whether it's a win or not is yet to be determined. It would sure be nice to see Don get paid.

BigDogatPlay
06-01-2012, 7:30 PM
Someone carrying a gun into a show to transfer or put out for display would have the gun under their personal control, no?

Wasn't there some discussion of "tethered if not under personal control" at some point?

Purple K
06-02-2012, 6:53 AM
I'll be bringing an AR type rifle, XDm9 and a box of ammo that fits neither one to the first Alameda County gun show....

NoJoke
06-02-2012, 7:35 AM
I'll be bringing an AR type rifle, XDm9 and a box of ammo that fits neither one to the first Alameda County gun show....

I needed a good laugh. Thanks. :D

Purple K
06-02-2012, 7:40 AM
I needed a good laugh. Thanks. :D

Im not kidding

mag360
06-02-2012, 5:56 PM
can you conceal an unloaded gun at a gu show with a LTC? Thinking of car burglary if left locked in car.

if the unloaded gun is legal, can you have ammuntion on your person but not in magwell?

dantodd
06-02-2012, 6:40 PM
can you conceal an unloaded gun at a gu show with a LTC? Thinking of car burglary if left locked in car.

if the unloaded gun is legal, can you have ammuntion on your person but not in magwell?

Cal law makes it illegal to possess both a firearm and matching ammo on the grounds of a gun show.

27330. No person at a gun show or event, other than security
personnel or sworn peace officers, shall possess at the same time
both a firearm and ammunition that is designed to be fired in the
firearm. Vendors having those items at the show for sale or
exhibition are exempt from this prohibition.

mag360
06-02-2012, 9:50 PM
so can an off duty leo carry at the gun show?

what about if someone leaves ammo in the car, but a friend carries the ammo for them? Does a person need an ltc to carry a magazine with ammo?

hoffmang
06-02-2012, 10:58 PM
so can an off duty leo carry at the gun show?

Nope. Old CRPA's ex lobbyists' significant other screwed that up. Yet she claims she's pro gun!

-Gene

motorhead
06-02-2012, 11:03 PM
Private party "tethers" - - - - hmmmmm - -- - like, a holster?
nahhhhh
lanyard?:D

goober
06-02-2012, 11:07 PM
lanyard?:D

but you have to bring a table as well :chris:

Purple K
06-03-2012, 8:17 AM
A Barbie doll sized table is still a table.

EM2
06-03-2012, 7:44 PM
so can an off duty leo carry at the gun show?


Nope. Old CRPA's ex lobbyists' significant other screwed that up. Yet she claims she's pro gun!

-Gene


I wouldn't classify that as a screw up.

I am against any type of "class" separation between citizens.
Simply being LEO should not afford them special privileges.
Just like the LEO exemption of the not unsafe list and the AW regulations.

We ALL should be equal under the constitution and anything less is a compromise (at best) and tyranny (at worst).

ke6guj
06-03-2012, 7:58 PM
Nope. Old CRPA's ex lobbyists' significant other screwed that up. Yet she claims she's pro gun!

-Gene

can you point me to the PC for that?

I'm not seeing that and have LEO friends that are not aware that they can't can't carry off-duty at a gun show.


27330. No person at a gun show or event, other than security
personnel or sworn peace officers, shall possess at the same time
both a firearm and ammunition that is designed to be fired in the
firearm. Vendors having those items at the show for sale or
exhibition are exempt from this prohibition.







27340. (a) Persons other than show or event security personnel,
sworn peace officers, or vendors, who bring firearms onto the gun
show or event premises shall sign in ink the tag or sticker that is
attached to the firearm prior to being allowed admittance to the show
or event, as provided for in subdivision (b).
(b) All firearms carried onto the premises of a gun show or event
by members of the public shall be checked, cleared of any ammunition,
secured in a manner that prevents them from being operated, and an
identification tag or sticker shall be attached to the firearm, prior
to the person being allowed admittance to the show. The
identification tag or sticker shall state that all firearms transfers
between private parties at the show or event shall be conducted
through a licensed dealer in accordance with applicable state and
federal laws. The person possessing the firearm shall complete the
following information on the tag before it is attached to the
firearm:
(1) The gun owner's signature.
(2) The gun owner's printed name.
(3) The identification number from the gun owner's
government-issued photo identification.I don't see the exemption stating that only on-duty sworn peace officers are exempt. Or is there a defintion of "sworn peace officer" that states that an LEO is only that while specifically on-duty?

SilverBulletZ06
06-04-2012, 12:02 PM
Cal law makes it illegal to possess both a firearm and matching ammo on the grounds of a gun show.

Basically making buying ammo at a gun show illegal for many participants.

ke6guj
06-04-2012, 12:54 PM
Basically making buying ammo at a gun show illegal for many participants."many participants" at a gun show are carrying a gun that the ammo that they buy will fit in?

hornswaggled
06-04-2012, 1:19 PM
Sooo is the old LA/Pomona gun show coming back then?

SilverBulletZ06
06-04-2012, 1:43 PM
"many participants" at a gun show are carrying a gun that the ammo that they buy will fit in?

One would assume.

Major Rifle Calibers:
5.56/.223
7.62x39
7.62/.308

Major Pistol Calibers:
9mm
.45ACP
.40

Those 6 calibers probably take up the vast majority of firearms sales in the US. People own multiple of the same caliber (lets use AR-15 just for example). So person goes in looking to sell an AR, but still wants to to buy more ammo for his other rifle. Oops, not any more.

NoJoke
06-04-2012, 1:48 PM
Im not kidding

I hope you are not!
I'm still laughing at the image of puzzled faces at the fair tho! :D

ke6guj
06-04-2012, 2:20 PM
One would assume.

Major Rifle Calibers:
5.56/.223
7.62x39
7.62/.308

Major Pistol Calibers:
9mm
.45ACP
.40

Those 6 calibers probably take up the vast majority of firearms sales in the US. People own multiple of the same caliber (lets use AR-15 just for example). So person goes in looking to sell an AR, but still wants to to buy more ammo for his other rifle. Oops, not any more.ok, that's your example, but I wouldn't call the number of people I usually see carrying for-sale guns at the show to be "many", but I guess if you extrapolate the average # per day at one show across all the shows in the state over the year, it might be "many".

Scarecrow Repair
06-04-2012, 8:28 PM
So person goes in looking to sell an AR, but still wants to to buy more ammo for his other rifle. Oops, not any more.

If you do sell the AR, buy ammo after.

If you don't sell AR, lock it in its case in your vehicle, maybe in the trunk, go back, buy ammo. Is that possible?

dantodd
06-04-2012, 10:13 PM
If you do sell the AR, buy ammo after.

If you don't sell AR, lock it in its case in your vehicle, maybe in the trunk, go back, buy ammo. Is that possible?

^^^ This ^^^

SilverBulletZ06
06-10-2012, 7:10 PM
If you do sell the AR, buy ammo after.

If you don't sell AR, lock it in its case in your vehicle, maybe in the trunk, go back, buy ammo. Is that possible?

Your still jumping through hoops for what is a core right.