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sharxbyte
05-31-2012, 11:55 PM
Sorry if this is a dupe, but I did a couple searches of the forum and didn't pull anything up. I think the article should be stickied.

So, some background on WHY I was searching for this. I am slightly paranoid because of the neighborhood I live in, and the activities that always seem to happen a few blocks over, the occasional discharge of a firearm in the vicinity, etc, and started wondering how many walls a bullet will go through. We've all heard about SWAT raids where innocent's get killed by stray fire penetrating walls, negligent discharge, etc.

So I did a quick Google search, and this guy's test seems well done, well photographed and documented. He took a reasonable sample of ammunition, and while I didn't get every type of ammo, it is enough to give us a general idea of what will go through how much.

Here's the article (http://230grain.com/showthread.php?65428-Ammunition-Drywall-Penetration-Analysis-Test-(Adpat))

Enjoy :)

artoaster
06-01-2012, 6:51 AM
C'mon already, why don't they just make drywall bulletproof and end all this nonsense.

I mean, If your bullet's able to penetrate your bad guy it's gonna be able to go through drywall, right?

G60
06-01-2012, 10:18 AM
I mean, If your bullet's able to penetrate your bad guy it's gonna be able to go through drywall, right?

Exactly. Why this is so difficult for so many people to understand boggles me.

ervaztec
06-01-2012, 11:03 AM
I don't see any reason to be critical of the OPs question. Even the test he posted showed different levels of lethality from the limited rounds they tested.

I wonder how a 5.45 x 39 would fair in this test. Also there are loads out there specifically designed to stop a person but fragment enough to be less lethal after they they penetrate walls.

firing a gun in your home is by definition not safe. But, there are caliber/loads that will increase your odds of not hurting an innocent person. I'd like to know what those are.

ArcherDog
06-01-2012, 11:32 AM
If we find that magic round, we will just get a generation of criminals who tape a piece of drywall to their chest before a home invasion.

CalLongGunner
06-01-2012, 11:41 AM
Ammo testing into drywall

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Shrubmaster
06-01-2012, 12:23 PM
Personal Defence TV had an episode on "cover and concealment". Extremely interesting. They tested all common pistol shotgun and rifle rounds against furniture, drywall, and a frig. The frig shopped birdshot..... that's it!! Everything else went through like butter. Even little .380s.

I'll be buying some different ammo for my HD guns.

IntoForever
06-01-2012, 12:44 PM
One observation I've made in the past is that every 7.62X39 round I've recovered was bent. I wonder if that's why the oblong holes were present in the drywall giving the appearance of destabilizing.

MrPlink
06-01-2012, 1:16 PM
Personal Defence TV had an episode on "cover and concealment". Extremely interesting. They tested all common pistol shotgun and rifle rounds against furniture, drywall, and a frig. The frig shopped birdshot..... that's it!! Everything else went through like butter. Even little .380s.

I'll be buying some different ammo for my HD guns.

whats a frig? :confused:

Scratch705
06-01-2012, 1:18 PM
whats a frig? :confused:

i think he meant fridge.

TRod1222
06-01-2012, 8:21 PM
Drywall is paper and gypsum why do people wonder what bullet won't go through it. Spit balls wont go through it. But they also won't go through a perp.

artoaster
06-01-2012, 9:44 PM
I do appreciate the OP's interest in the subject and yet here we come to a problem where we unrealistically expect to find a solution through technology.

The only solution is to put the rounds inside the bad guy, hope the bullet expands and stops deeply into tissue, organs and bone and doesn't just go through the body or be deflected by it and hit something or someone unintended.

I want brand X ammo to show me what it does on the human I intend to stop more than I care about whatever media it does or doesn't penetrate.

This is somewhat like those who talk about birdshot loads as home defense rounds because of these same concerns. Or, even the american myth about shells loaded with rock salt, these things just don't work!

The things that will work are supposed to be lethal to anything that they potentially will strike and will go through walls, glass, wood, metal and other things to a certain degree. Any rounds not hitting the intended target are serious liabilities and that's the way it's going to go down.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
06-01-2012, 11:10 PM
That test mirrors one another deputy and I did years ago for our department, looking for a round that penetrated the least for use inside a courthouse. We tested the varieties of frangible handgun ammo available at the time, and were surprised to see that every one of them penetrated at least one full wall, both side. Needless to say, none of the frangibles were adopted.

There's nothing like empirical proof, and the test referred to in the OP should convince anyone that artoaster's last line above is the absolute truth.

LBDamned
06-02-2012, 1:11 AM
don't shoot unless your life is in danger... at that point it's you or the bad guy (and possibly whomever is behind him/wall)... ideally you are positioned where the bad guy is between you and a non-endangered background - but if your life is on the line does it really matter?

And yes, all rounds can penetrate drywall... but again, if you have a high probability of death, are you going to care? Don't overlook the fact that it's not guaranteed that a human is in the path of a bullet that misses (or goes through) a bad guy... but even with that remote chance - again, do you care, if your life is in danger?

In a better metaphor... could you "live" if the fact that you prevented your death resulted in the death of an innocent? Or would you error on the side of not taking a chance, and lose your life?... It's a crappy thought - but something you better be content with.

PEZHEAD265
06-02-2012, 9:19 AM
In the begining of the article he talks about the best ammo is 223 55 grain fully jacketed ammo.Funny thing he testing HP and SP in 223 not FMJ like he states and then he compares that to other FMJ and one 9mm hp on 115 grain.How many walls would 55 gr 223 FMJ penetrate?How well would of the old 762x39 124gr HP Wolf MC have done??In the pistols would HP did better?I think that this test is very one side and favors the 223 with the better ammo used for it where there were better choices in ammo for the other guns tested.

Calplinker
06-02-2012, 9:43 AM
Any quality .223 hollow point will be more than adequate for home defense. The hollow point will help with expansion in the bad guy and also help the bullet break up should it impact drywall instead.

There are tons of videos and tests of .223 with drywall that nicely document how the round behaves, which is it will penetrate a heck of a lot less than a 9mm, .40, .45 or shotgun slug or 00 buckshot.

There was a good segment on one of the gun shows where they tested this exact thing at Front Sight. Ed Head demonstrated how the .223 round behaves against dry wall. They had typical walls constructed with similiar seperation as you'd find in a home (10 feet or so).

The round came apart very quickly on impact and penetration was through 2-3 sheets. After the first wall it was already fragmented, but after 2-3, the fragments had slowed down so much they stuck in the wall or fell to the ground.

robert101
06-02-2012, 10:01 AM
I thought penetrating at least one interior wall was good. Does everyone think a home intruder is going to stand in the open and be shot? I'm not understanding the initial logic for home defense. Not to be too rude, but maybe some should look at a bean bag gun for HD.

Jax Smirking Revenge
06-02-2012, 11:41 AM
Call me naive, but it seems that the answer is none of the above. In my personal defense shotgun, the first shot fired is the sound of the round being racked into the chamber. If the intruder sticks around to challenge my family's life, then a round of number seven bird shot will be on the way. In very tight quarters, this shot would likely be lethal and has very low probability of multiple wall penetration. Every shot left in the tube is 00 buck. By the time a follow-up shot has been assessed and aimed, I hope to have determined my backdrop and not be in a panic fire situation. Just my opinion though.

artoaster
06-02-2012, 2:18 PM
It's funny how in HD or SHTF someone has in their mind the order of types of SG rounds, first birdshot, second 00buck, etc. figured out and the sense that the racking noise of a SG will have a deterrent effect.

Just my opinion and not better than yours in any manner, just different.

44fred
06-02-2012, 2:32 PM
No warning from me at all! If an unknown is in my house, they are there to do us harm. Why give them any chance or warning. Play by their rules, no notice. First round will have deadly intent, if not don't pull the trigger.

BTW, bird shot is for birds, hunting buckshot is for hunting large game and low recoil buckshot is great for HD, check it out.

paul0660
06-02-2012, 2:41 PM
That test mirrors one another deputy and I did years ago for our department, looking for a round that penetrated the least for use inside a courthouse. We tested the varieties of frangible handgun ammo available at the time, and were surprised to see that every one of them penetrated at least one full wall, both side. Needless to say, none of the frangibles were adopted.



So they stuck with the service round?

emsalex
06-02-2012, 3:27 PM
They do make bullet resistant "dry wall" there is bullet board, lead lined drywall,

Wile in my fire academy we watched a video of firefighters trying to breach a wall that was lined with some sort plexi/fiber glass, I was told it is used in "saferooms "

LBDamned
06-02-2012, 5:24 PM
It's funny how in HD or SHTF someone has in their mind the order of types of SG rounds, first birdshot, second 00buck, etc. figured out and the sense that the racking noise of a SG will have a deterrent effect.

Just my opinion and not better than yours in any manner, just different.

+1... imo "racking" is only going to give assailant notification of my position and that I'm armed - as far as I'm concerned that means he's gonna shoot... therefore, I'm not counting on that sound to scare them away, I'm expecting it to spook them into shooting and I'm at the ready.

I think it's over presumptuous to think an intruder isn't armed and they will run when they know I am... once my weapon is in my hand I only plan to use it to defend my life and the life of loved ones - not scare an intruder.

LBDamned
06-02-2012, 5:27 PM
They do make bullet resistant "dry wall" there is bullet board, lead lined drywall,

Wile in my fire academy we watched a video of firefighters trying to breach a wall that was lined with some sort plexi/fiber glass, I was told it is used in "saferooms "

carbon fiber or Kevlar maybe, but not plexiglass of fiberglass... it would be cost prohibitive to build a house or dwelling with it though (for most people anyway - me for sure).

artoaster
06-02-2012, 6:26 PM
Or, in another scenario, SG round is already chambered saving precious seconds.

Boom!

Saber2Golf
06-02-2012, 6:50 PM
Shoot center mass, with whatever gun in a viable self defense cartridge you shoot best with, with bullets you know to "go bang" reliably, in a controlled fashion, until the threat is down. If you can't do this under duress, practice until you can. If you can't positively ID your target, don't shoot (and put a light on your HD gun FFS!). If your SA is so bad you don't realize your baby's nursery in behind the threat, establish a point you can get to and shoot from safely before you're in dire straights - and drill moving to it and what your "range fans" will be (markers for the extreme left and extreme right you can safely shoot). DO NOT try to "clear" your house like some one-man-SWAT-team. Do call 911 while you wait in your defensive position. Do it on speaker phone if you have to.

Do these things and I dare say penetrating walls or not will matter a hell of a lot less.

Jax Smirking Revenge
06-02-2012, 6:58 PM
+1... imo "racking" is only going to give assailant notification of my position and that I'm armed - as far as I'm concerned that means he's gonna shoot... therefore, I'm not counting on that sound to scare them away, I'm expecting it to spook them into shooting and I'm at the ready.

I think it's over presumptuous to think an intruder isn't armed and they will run when they know I am... once my weapon is in my hand I only plan to use it to defend my life and the life of loved ones - not scare an intruder.

I understand how you come to these conclusions with only your imagination as your experience, but real world data seems to lead to a different conclusion. First off, your house is much more likely to be entered by a thief than a serial killer or assassin. Any thief that is even somewhat competent will be acutely aware of the fact that he multiplies his prison time exponentially if he is caught entering a residence with a weapon as opposed to without. Since a thief will be looking for an easy target, he will most likely enter a residence he believes to be unoccupied. The racking sound of the shotgun does two things well; it tells an intruder that someone is aware of his presence and acts as a great barometer to gauge his intent. Someone that continues to advance can be argued to have deadly intent. In court, this speaks volumes.
Now, if ninja assassins are closing on your bedroom, blind fire away so you can maintain that Hollywood element of surprise. If it is me, I want to show the inevitable jury that will be hearing the case that I truly acted in self defense.
The logic behind one round of birdshot is simple, I have two children under the age of three in my home. If I am forced to take a shot in my home, I may not have the luxury of carefully aligning my backdrop like I will on my follow up shots.
Again, if you live in an abandoned mental hospital on monster island, these will be foolish precautions. In a relatively low crime suburb in Southern California, I believe that they are necessary.

dandingo13
06-02-2012, 7:18 PM
I believe the OP's test to be more accurate than the box o' truth's test because of the drywall being doubled up at each spot, representing two walls back to back, and the 'walls' being separated equidistant to the size of a typical room. TBOT's test had them all lined up within a few inches of each other. That is not an accurate representation of what a bullet would encounter.

I appreciate people trying to educate the firearm owner with these tests but they're missing a crucial part of the equation:

There are wooden studs every 16" or so in the wall, which are missing in both tests. These are going to slow each round down. Who knows exactly how much but they will slow them down. No bullet is going to go in one wall perfectly straight and miss every stud. If the testers in the OP's link would've added studs, I think it would have been a very accurate test.

slo5oh
06-02-2012, 8:02 PM
Dandingo, the insulation in our walls will slow down a bullet too, probably very little, but I've been wrong before.

LBDamned
06-02-2012, 8:46 PM
Call me naive, but

okay, since you mentioned it...

I understand how you come to these conclusions with only your imagination as your experience, but real world data seems to lead to a different conclusion. First off, your house is much more likely to be entered by a thief than a serial killer or assassin.
you don't know my experience, my house or statistical data pertaining to either.

Call me naive, but

The racking sound of the shotgun does two things well; it tells an intruder that someone is aware of his presence and acts as a great barometer to gauge his intent.

can get you killed if you rely on movie prop sounds to scare an intruder... if I chamber a round, it is with intent to defend my life and the life of loved ones, not scare someone away (as in movies)...

The logic behind one round of birdshot is simple, I have two children under the age of three in my home. If I am forced to take a shot in my home, I may not have the luxury of carefully aligning my backdrop like I will on my follow up shots.


how is this relevant to me and why are you adding it to your rhetoric when quoting my post? I don't care what rounds you use (I never mentioned what shot shells I have)... and your kids under three aren't relevant to my situation.

I'll defend myself and loved ones the way I see fit. And frankly that doesn't include the foolish thought that the sound of my shotgun is going to send an intruder running away... if you live in that fantasy world, that's fine. But don't quote my post and try to lecture me - especially with foolishness.

Bluesami
06-02-2012, 8:55 PM
Why are people so critical of this questions.
Seems like a logical question..

Sent from my DROID BIONIC

Jax Smirking Revenge
06-02-2012, 10:49 PM
Clearly I touched a nerve. I never stated that a racking sound would or should scare away anyone, I cited the two reasons for it, neither were to create fear. I also cited my situation as to my reasoning behind my actions. I highly recommend actually reading posts before flaming the posters on what was said. If you do live in the abandoned mental institution on monster island, my situation does not apply to you. But, seriously LBDamned, take a breath and rethink this whole Internet tough guy act.

LBDamned
06-02-2012, 11:22 PM
Clearly I touched a nerve.

Yep. your user name is appropriate... don't target someone (me) by quoting a post and plead for approval. Yes, I consider your continued nuisance a plea for my attention.

I never stated that a racking sound would or should scare away anyone

Really?... what's the point of this?:

In my personal defense shotgun, the first shot fired is the sound of the round being racked into the chamber.
Are you serious?

I highly recommend actually reading posts before flaming the posters on what was said.
let's not make this any more embarrassing for you... I suggest you re-read the thread before deciding I'm your target.
my situation does not apply to you.

you're gawd damn right it doesn't. So STFU!!!

Listen Smirk, let's not forget who targeted who here. I have no idea what your agenda is or why you chose to battle me - but I couldn't care less about how you defend yourself and your dwelling... why are you so enamored with how I defend mine?

BTW, who are you again? And why should I care?

Jax Smirking Revenge
06-03-2012, 12:28 AM
Funny if it weren't so sad. Breathe man, it will be okay.

Jax Smirking Revenge
06-03-2012, 12:31 AM
Gotta love the out of context segmented quotes LBDamned. Must be years of experience in flying off the handle at the most benign posts. Great work here.

PEZHEAD265
06-03-2012, 7:54 AM
Dandingo, the insulation in our walls will slow down a bullet too, probably very little, but I've been wrong before.

There is no insulation in interior walls.It should only be in the outside walls and ceiling.

PEZHEAD265
06-03-2012, 8:05 AM
I still belive that this test was unfair because he used the best ammo for 223 and FMJ for other cals except the 9mm witch there are better choices then the golddot 115 that he used.

Ken Woodford
06-03-2012, 8:18 AM
It's my opinion if one is worried about wall penetration...use a shotgun. A .22 will go through a wall unless it strikes a 2x4.

Racking and pistol cocking doesn't work to scare off a bad guy...many times it emboldens them. Simply announcing that you have a gun and to get out and if you find them you will kill them is much better.

Lastly those TV personal defense shows are a crock. Please don't follow very much of what they say. Never search your home with you gun in your hand outstretched like you are on the range. Never lead with the gun when entering a room...pie the corner. That's TV BS...but I digress for the OP question.

Richard Erichsen
06-03-2012, 9:12 AM
...The racking sound of the shotgun does two things well; it tells an intruder that someone is aware of his presence and acts as a great barometer to gauge his intent. You cannot count on this. As loud as that "racking sound" may be to the user, it may be completely inaudible to someone else on another floor or in a different part of the house. If you want to broadcast to a potential intruder, yell out "I'm armed and the police are on the line!" Walking around with an empty chamber trying to make sure your perp has a good opportunity to hear you racking away cannot reliably do the same thing.

Now, if ninja assassins are closing on your bedroom, blind fire away so you can maintain that Hollywood element of surprise. If it is me, I want to show the inevitable jury that will be hearing the case that I truly acted in self defense. Then consider for a moment this post. It could be admissible in court if a bright DA decides to check up on your postings and finds what may be used against you. We do not discuss killing an intruder, we describe only stopping the threat. If the intruder expires in the process, that was not the objective.

The logic behind one round of birdshot is simple, I have two children under the age of three in my home. If I am forced to take a shot in my home, I may not have the luxury of carefully aligning my backdrop like I will on my follow up shots.

I appreciate what you see as a problem, but how you are approaching it is wrongheaded. Birdshot is not and will not be as effective as buckshot, from #4 buckshot up to 00 buckshot, in one-shot stops where 85-95% of the time a one shot stop is achieved. Birdshot performance is dismal by comparison and is often less than 25%. Well documented cases of perps being hit multiple times with birdshot and still being able to return fire, stab or slash have been recorded by LEOs. Many of them were hit solidly enough that they expired minutes or hours later, more than enough time to do serious damage to you and your loved ones.

Have you considered removing your children to a central spot or safe room that everyone understands is where you withdraw when a threat has been detected? Guiding a child with one hand and holding a shotgun with the other is one reason a handgun is often recommended, using a shotgun or carbine as the preferred weapon when you are within that defensive position, behind a closed door. All of these actions, including retrieving your children should be taking place after contacting 911 and staying on the line (on speakerphone if you need to leave it behind in a hall or room). If you are advancing into your home in the darkness with your children still in their beds, you are almost certainly not applying the correct approach to your defensive plan.

Consider that as many as a dozen or more well armed police are likely on route to you after you make a call that you believe an intruder, possibly armed, has entered your home. You could unintentionally create the very real possibility of a police officer or yourself getting seriously injured or killed if you aren't careful. You should not be roaming around your home with a firearm or a weapon of any kind when they arrive. Pulling back to a room with loved ones and making sure dispatch knows exactly what is going on (assign the oldest child, spouse, grandparent to this duty) and where you are at all times in order to avoid this danger when police arrive. There have been cases where the homeowner, or the police, with both now fully prepared for a life or death situation mistake each other in the dark for the intruder. Don't let that happen.

R

Yemff
06-03-2012, 9:17 AM
It's my opinion if one is worried about wall penetration...use a shotgun. A .22 will go through a wall unless it strikes a 2x4.


According to the article, buckshot went through all the walls as well. It doesn't make sense to me how he didn't use hp and fmj of all the handgun calibers for better comparison.

Bizcuits
06-03-2012, 9:29 AM
I used to be the guy who kept the first round in my shotgun birdshot, then during my bachelor party my best man fired a round of bird shot at a playstation 2 from about 8ft. Afterwards we inspected the case to find that not a single pellet had penetrated the PS2's plastic case.

However the next round we fired of buckshot, destroyed it.

The first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth rounds are now all 9pellet 00.

Richard Erichsen
06-03-2012, 9:32 AM
The recommended minimum depth of tissue penetration for a projectile to reliably stop a threat is 12". Any load that can reliably penetrate to that depth will have little difficulty flying through the thin paper and gypsum materials and will be slowed but not stopped by soft pine 2x4s. The majority of defensive loads will reliably stay in the body of the target if hit solidly at center mass. Buckshot loses velocity quickly in air and very rarely penetrates through the body. Quality hollowpoints for handguns will usually not over-penetrate either, though may load up the point with wall material and penetrate like FMJ if you miss. Fragile high velocity rifle rounds will usually break apart. Hornady TAP is one variety of ammo designed to be "frangible" and avoid over-penetration.

They will all go through several walls, including 2x4s if you miss. The important training opportunity here is to be able to use your weapon proficiently, under stress, when it matters most. Use what cycles best and has some data behind the type of load you choose to increase the likelihood of a one shot stop if you do your part and fire to center mass of the target.

"Candy-striping" loads, or fumbling through different loads on the side saddle of a shotgun, or changing out bullets in a revolver for something less likely to penetrate, or dropping and inserting a different magazine in a semi-automatic handgun or rifle are all recipes for disaster. LEOs have had to determine their level of risk from liability due to bullets over-penetrating a perp and yet you'll find the trend is they use what is most effective, regardless of how many wall boards that might correspond with. The loads LEOs are using in their shotguns, rifles and handguns are the often the best compromise, the rest comes down to training.

R

Jax Smirking Revenge
06-03-2012, 10:16 AM
I really appreciate the feedback on my personal position. I thought I had explained the reasoning for my preference but I guess I have left some ambiguity.

The likely scenario in my situation would be this: a burglar enters the home while I am at work and my wife is at home with the kids. My wife retrieves the shotgun from the gun safe and loads and makes ready by racking the first round into the chamber. While staying behind the closed door of the bedroom, she announces that she is armed and will use deadly force if necessary. If the intruder ignores these warnings and still persists, one may articulate a genuine fear for life and the threat will be neutralized.
As I stated previously, the first round is merely to account for wall penetration in a panic fire situation. I have taught my wife that if deadly force is truly needed, a follow up shot should be used as quickly as can be deployed safely.

If it were me at home, I have a high proficiency with my Glock 22 and would prefer to use that if the need arose. For the sake of the thread and specifically wall penetration safety, I stand by my original comments about shotgun deployment.

Richard Erichsen
06-03-2012, 10:59 AM
The likely scenario in my situation would be this: a burglar enters the home while I am at work and my wife is at home with the kids. My wife retrieves the shotgun from the gun safe and loads and makes ready by racking the first round into the chamber. While staying behind the closed door of the bedroom, she announces that she is armed and will use deadly force if necessary. If the intruder ignores these warnings and still persists, one may articulate a genuine fear for life and the threat will be neutralized.

Where in this process is 911 being called? Who is responsible for staying on the line with dispatch? In what order are children being withdrawn to a pre-arranged room?

As I stated previously, the first round is merely to account for wall penetration in a panic fire situation.

We disagree on that point.

I have taught my wife that if deadly force is truly needed, a follow up shot should be used as quickly as can be deployed safely.

If indeed she is behind a closed door, that means there is a potential for firing through the door. If an intruder is attempting to break through the last line of defense, this is about the only time firing at something you cannot see might be required. Firing a shotgun in a closed room is going to be deafening, disorienting and in the dark, dazzling to eyes adjusted for darkness. The only reason to fire again is if the threat continues and the door is being kicked in. There will be no other way to know if the threat is still out there. Approaching the door is not advisable. Dispatch needs to be appraised of everything happening so that when police arrive it won't be a police officer that ends up getting hurt.

If it were me at home, I have a high proficiency with my Glock 22 and would prefer to use that if the need arose. For the sake of the thread and specifically wall penetration safety, I stand by my original comments about shotgun deployment.

We are not in agreement. For the price of a trip to a theme park for your family, you could both get through a 2-3 day training in HD. Not covered are the details of your specific plan for your home, location of bedrooms and so forth. Make a plan and stick with it, drill on it and run through it a few times until everyone in your home knows what to expect.

R

Jax Smirking Revenge
06-03-2012, 11:48 AM
All points are correct and covered extensively by me at home with my family. I appreciate the input and mostly agree with what you said. For the sake of brevity, I did not hash out every detail in my post. I am very well trained with a lot of experience in these matters and feel very confident in my abilities as it relates to the scenario at hand. Points well made though.

BlackDrop50
06-03-2012, 12:29 PM
If you are that worried about bullets coming in or going out, line your walls with bookshelves.


If you are worried about missing any intended targets you should be hitting the range more.

Jax Smirking Revenge
06-03-2012, 2:07 PM
The range will do well to establish a comfort with the weapon and basic operation of the system. It will NOT do much to prepare you for a close quarters, life or death struggle or gun battle. In situations where one is truly fighting for their life, misses account for the majority of shots fired by even the most trained professionals. To simply count on just hitting the target with every shot does not reflect the reality of the situation.

CharlesV
06-03-2012, 5:35 PM
Is anyone posting in here professionally trained in HD?

44fred
06-03-2012, 6:18 PM
I used to be the guy who kept the first round in my shotgun birdshot, then during my bachelor party my best man fired a round of bird shot at a playstation 2 from about 8ft. Afterwards we inspected the case to find that not a single pellet had penetrated the PS2's plastic case.

However the next round we fired of buckshot, destroyed it.

The first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth rounds are now all 9pellet 00.

Are those the low recoil rounds? From what I understand they are more than enough for HD. The buck shot intended for hunting large game is way over kill and is brutal to train with in my HD shotgun.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
06-03-2012, 7:01 PM
So they stuck with the service round?

Yes, we did. The frangible rounds were also tested for possible use in a carbine if needed inside the facility, but after this testing the department adopted a 9MM Colt carbine firing standard 147 gr. JHP subsonic rounds. No frangible round has ever been adopted by the department to the best of my knowledge as of the time I retired. The court facility currently uses the same 5.56MM AR platform as the rest of the department.

sharxbyte
06-03-2012, 10:17 PM
don't shoot unless your life is in danger... at that point it's you or the bad guy (and possibly whomever is behind him/wall)... ideally you are positioned where the bad guy is between you and a non-endangered background - but if your life is on the line does it really matter?

And yes, all rounds can penetrate drywall... but again, if you have a high probability of death, are you going to care? Don't overlook the fact that it's not guaranteed that a human is in the path of a bullet that misses (or goes through) a bad guy... but even with that remote chance - again, do you care, if your life is in danger?

In a better metaphor... could you "live" if the fact that you prevented your death resulted in the death of an innocent? Or would you error on the side of not taking a chance, and lose your life?... It's a crappy thought - but something you better be content with.

If the person the bullet happens to pass into is my wife, child, or neighbor, then I would most definitely care. Now, I don't INTEND to shoot in their direction, but depending on at what point I intercept the intruder, I may not be able to control exactly what position he stands in.

If I EVER have to fire a weapon inside my house, I will do so while on the phone with 911, and will hit my target. If I shoot, it will be to stop a threat in their tracks. Period. I was just curious as to how far exactly a bullet, from them OR me, would go.

Harrison_Bergeron
06-03-2012, 10:35 PM
Has anyone tested the plastic air marshal rounds for home defense?

They used to sell them on AmmoToGo, but I can't find them anymore. If they can't be bought anymore, then I guess they wouldn't be all that good for HD anyway.

negolien
06-04-2012, 12:43 AM
Ya don't tell that to the buckshot clowns here and btw hope ya don't live next to one..

NSR500
06-04-2012, 1:18 AM
I'll use whatever I have on hand for HD. .22 to .308, if my life is in danger I'll deploy what I have.

Jax Smirking Revenge
06-04-2012, 2:23 AM
I think the gist of this thread is to avoid over penetration and possibly endangering an innocent. A .308 may be effective in neutralizing the threat but go through the baddie and the wall behind him into a family member or neighbor.

m98
06-04-2012, 5:08 AM
Topics like bullets penetrating drywall killing bystander will soon lead to anti's screaming for legislation to require ammo manufacturer to make smart bullets that will stop immediately after touching drywall/wood, to make the smart bullet turn 90 degrees towards a safe direction.......................Heck, they gonna want to ban all firearms and only use fully controlled ray guns in the 40watt range with bystander safety controlled sensors.

Richard Erichsen
06-04-2012, 8:46 AM
I think the gist of this thread is to avoid over penetration and possibly endangering an innocent. A .308 may be effective in neutralizing the threat but go through the baddie and the wall behind him into a family member or neighbor.

That's a generalization. There is .308 TAP ammo that is designed to prevent overpenetration through the intruder. It is of reduced recoil, blast and flash. There is no load that isn't going to penetrate drywall but will reliably reach vital structures of the target. Police have to consider all of these same issues and are responsible for every round they fire. The work done by Ayoob Massad and the FBI provide some useful pointers on this, I encourage review of these works. Since Ayoob is one of the elders in the field, I include some of his articles below relevant to the current topic:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob97.html
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob89.html <-- burglary prevention is key

R

gregm784
06-04-2012, 10:03 AM
No warning from me at all! If an unknown is in my house, they are there to do us harm. Why give them any chance or warning. Play by their rules, no notice. First round will have deadly intent, if not don't pull the trigger.

BTW, bird shot is for birds, hunting buckshot is for hunting large game and low recoil buckshot is great for HD, check it out.

Exactly. If you are in my house uninvited, it's for no good, and the only warning you get, is the safety being switched off.

Jax Smirking Revenge
06-04-2012, 10:39 AM
That will be the post that the DA will use to show the court that you intended to kill anyone that entered your home. Here in CA, one must show a reasonable fear for ones life before deadly force is deemed an acceptable course of action. Be very careful about posting things like that online.

I understand that there are powderpuff rounds in every caliber but the thread is specifically about reducing the potential of overpenetration in a home defense situation. For most, that will be which commonly available ammunition will present the least liability if fired from within a residential dwelling.

44fred
06-04-2012, 11:41 AM
That will be the post that the DA will use to show the court that you intended to kill anyone that entered your home. Here in CA, one must show a reasonable fear for ones life before deadly force is deemed an acceptable course of action. Be very careful about posting things like that online.

I understand that there are powderpuff rounds in every caliber but the thread is specifically about reducing the potential of overpenetration in a home defense situation. For most, that will be which commonly available ammunition will present the least liability if fired from within a residential dwelling.

I here you but disagree. You must have a mind set to protect your loved ones with deadly force when necessary. Go ahead and wait for X Y Z to happen before you react. The simple fact that said perp is in my house will scare the hell out of me, I guarantee it. Maybe your much more tolerant than I when it comes to threats, good on you. I choose to put my family first, way above the bad guy that broke into my house. I'll take my chances with the courts.

Can you state even one case where a bad guy was shot while committing said burglary, robbery, home invasion etc. and the law abiding home owner was successfully prosecuted for something. Please keep in context.

I seems to me many of us are more worried about the trouble we can get into defending our family then actually using force. What do you have a gun for HD for?

I would also like to here cases where over penetration was an issue, I'm sure it's very rare. I'm not talking drive buys, keep it in context.

NSR500
06-04-2012, 12:06 PM
Exactly. If you are in my house uninvited, it's for no good, and the only warning you get, is the safety being switched off.

The only warning an intruder should get is the muzzle flash.:chris:

ouch1
06-04-2012, 4:32 PM
Has anyone tested the plastic air marshal rounds for home defense?

They used to sell them on AmmoToGo, but I can't find them anymore. If they can't be bought anymore, then I guess they wouldn't be all that good for HD anyway.

You mean the Glaser rounds. I found a video on youtube testing the Glaser safety slug with a box o' truth ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3ROwMpB7Zk), and it went right though.

My father has made his own HD load for his 12Ga 870, and I wonder how it would fare. It is 6 .50 cal ceramic marbles (like the ones made for slingshots) with the same powder load for 00 buck. He has never had it use it, but I would not want to be one the receiving end of it since those marbles will probably shatter on impact with bones. I am pretty sure that if a perp survived the impact, and made it to the hospital I doubt they would find the 1000's of ceramic shards with an x-ray.

-ouch1

Richard Erichsen
06-04-2012, 5:11 PM
That would be an interesting ballistics test, I just don't know that an life or death situation is the right time to experiment. Exactly what does a series of .50 glass marbles do when it hits various materials flying at 1300-1400 FPS?

If pellets hit bone or stiffer organs like the liver, they always make a mess. Finding all of the potential fragments without the benefit of an x-ray to locate them would make repair very difficult. However, any bullet that fragments can break into so many pieces that the surgeon has to decide which ones to go after based on the risks vs. benefits to do so. They might have little choice but to leave behind fragments even in less exotic gun shot wounds and let the body encapsulate in a scar capsule, assuming it was possible to survive the ordeal.

If this is an "effective" shell is a bigger question. I don't doubt this will make a mess, but will it perform any better than some of the other "exotic" shells? My gut says they would fly through most housing materials about as well as light pellets given the large surface area but low specific gravity of glass relative to lead. If you ever get around to repeating the drywall test, mix up some 10% ballistic gel and try that too at typical HD ranges (3-7 yards) and report back on how these shells pan out.

R

Ken Woodford
06-04-2012, 9:40 PM
According to the article, buckshot went through all the walls as well. It doesn't make sense to me how he didn't use hp and fmj of all the handgun calibers for better comparison.

I know I should have specified a smaller shot. My bad.