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View Full Version : pmags 30 round capacity, what to do after leaving service


ummmmmm456
05-30-2012, 7:55 PM
hi, my cousin is active military, he has purchased pmags with 30 round capactiy. he's leaving the military in a couple of months. i wanted to know what he needs to do so he doesn't get in trouble with the 30 rounders that he has. does he need to convert them? can he keep them the way they are? thank you.

RMP91
05-30-2012, 8:02 PM
He can't keep them once he's out (if he resides in California that is...)

He CAN, however do one of 4 things to stay out of trouble with them (and in a couple instances, even keep em).

Here's how:

1. Sell the magazines OUT OF STATE (Whatever he does, tell him DO NOT ATTEMPT TO SELL THEM INSIDE CA. Failure to do so WILL result in him becoming a felon and be barred from possessing firearms).

2. PERMANENTLY (That means you can't change them back whenever you feel like it, it's like that forever) modify the magazines to hold exactly 10 ROUNDS OR LESS. NO MORE.

3. Give them to a friend or relative that lives in a "free" state to hold on to, I know several people who do this with hi-cap mags who live in California. They either give them to friends/relatives to hold on to in, say Nevada, or just buy a storage unit there.

4. (Last resort, hope it doesn't come to this). Destroy the magazines... Render them permanently inoperable.


I am NOT a lawyer, these are just things I'd do if I were in his position if I wanted to stay out of trouble with those kinds of magazines.

Sgt. J Beezy
05-30-2012, 8:04 PM
I am very interested as I to have full-cap mags (repair kits currently) from the Marine Corps that were purchased after the ban...

Since I purchased them on base in California, am I legally allowed to have them assembled as well as use or just save them for when my pre-ban mags begin to brake down?

I've read enough posts and know the "it's not illegal to possess" comment and although any and all knowledge is welcome, a more in depth explanation is appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Sgt. J Beezy
05-30-2012, 8:06 PM
Was replying while 2nd post was written but I believe there is a fifth option (mag repair kits) if I am not mistaken...

ummmmmm456
05-30-2012, 8:07 PM
sgt. j beezy, thats what happened to my cousin, he's coming out and i don't want him to get into any trouble.

rmp91- thanks, i appreciate the advice. i was thinking all of the above also. i just didn't want him taking a risk of becoming a felon.

RMP91
05-30-2012, 8:09 PM
Was replying while 2nd post was written but I believe there is a fifth option (mag repair kits) if I am not mistaken...

That method is too risky in my opinion. It IS legal, but I wouldn't do it just to be on the safe side. You'd be caught by the balls if they (Inquiring LEOs) started asking questions...

ummmmmm456
05-30-2012, 8:24 PM
rmp91, can i ask, the whole repair kit thing, in my understanding of it is you needed to have a legally owned 30 round mag prior to the ban that needed to be repaired correct? i mean, if you have a repair kit, someone searches your house with a warrant and you have like 10 un assembled mags, they can easily make a case that you were producing high capacity mags right?

RMP91
05-30-2012, 8:30 PM
rmp91, can i ask, the whole repair kit thing, in my understanding of it is you needed to have a legally owned 30 round mag prior to the ban that needed to be repaired correct? i mean, if you have a repair kit, someone searches your house with a warrant and you have like 10 un assembled mags, they can easily make a case that you were producing high capacity mags right?

If they are particularly hungering for a big bust/conviction, then yes.

It's one of the reasons why I personally would not risk it.

cdtx2001
05-30-2012, 8:35 PM
HOLD ON A SECOND.....

Possession is NOT illegal.

If he was in the military when he acquired the magazines, he legally possess them. The method of importation into the state was legal at the time.

So now, he is in CA with high capacity magazines. The mags are already here. There is no further worry about importation or acquiring them via shady means.

In other words, I say he's legal to have them in their current configuration.

It would be no different than a peace officer retiring and retaining their service arm along with the high cap magazines. There is no requirement that they disassemble them or dispose of them.

All that being said, your cousin must not use a greater than 10 round magazine in a bullet buttoned rifle.

holyhandgrenade
05-30-2012, 8:36 PM
No, parts are parts are parts. There is nothing illegal about owning some springs, little pieces of metal and hollow metal tubes. There is no constructive possession in CA, much less on magazine parts. Short of a very dishonest LEO or someone assembling them and saying they were together when they found them, you are in the clear legally. The OP can disassemble them and sell them as kits. Again, as long as they aren't assembled, they're, for all intents and purposes, no different than any other piece of property.

Of course, I am not a lawyer and this should in no way be taken as legal advice. It is simply my opinion based on my understanding of current law.

ummmmmm456
05-30-2012, 8:37 PM
thanks, cause i don't want to be in a cell thinking i saved 6 dollars buying a repair kit instead of a properly made 10/30 pmag with epoxy and a couple of screws in it.

i gotta tell my cousin not to sell or give away his magazines.

huntercf
05-30-2012, 8:55 PM
Just tell him to disassemble them and keep them for trips to a free state and to buy some 10 rd mags for use in PRK.

troysland
05-30-2012, 9:19 PM
Yes, tell him to keep them all. I still have my 189 30-round magazines I aquired when I left the Marines in '97. Most have been repaired with pmag bodies and anti-tilt followers.

gazzavc
05-30-2012, 9:33 PM
Say nothing. Tell no one. Remove thread from a public forum.

Seriously.

bigmike82
05-30-2012, 9:44 PM
Ach, all this paranoia.

Take them apart and keep the parts.

Turn some into 10/30 mags. Keep the rest for spares.

Turning one into a 10/30 is as easy as popping in some rivets to prevent the follower from accepting more than 10 rounds.

ummmmmm456
05-30-2012, 10:05 PM
gazz, i didn't break any laws. he has the magazines and he is active military. so no worries. i don't have any repair kits so i'm good.

to everyone else, thanks, i just wanted to know what to tell him, what i know for sure is make sure he doesn't sell them or give them away.

bigmike82
05-30-2012, 10:54 PM
He can absolutely sell them once they're taken apart.

Going rate for decent condition PMAG is between 10 and 15 on the marketplace here...he should have no trouble unloading them.

Sir Stunna Lot
05-30-2012, 10:59 PM
PC 12020 A 2
- manufactures or causes to be manufactured any large-capacity magazine
- imports into the state any large-capacity magazine
- keeps for sale any large-capacity magazine
- offers or exposes for sale any large-capacity magazine
- gives any large-capacity magazine
- lends any large-capacity magazine


is your cousin violating any of the listed actions? if not, than it "isn't illegal"
remember, proof of burden is on the prosecutor, if he can't prove that you commited any of the above, then he can't charge you with any crime

simple posession of large cap mags "isn't illegal"

unusedusername
05-30-2012, 11:47 PM
PC 12020 A 2
- manufactures or causes to be manufactured any large-capacity magazine
- imports into the state any large-capacity magazine
- keeps for sale any large-capacity magazine
- offers or exposes for sale any large-capacity magazine
- gives any large-capacity magazine
- lends any large-capacity magazine



Sounds legal to me. He can just keep them and use them as long as he is not creating an AW (by using it in a fixed mag rifle).

The above items are illegal (with a unquoted exemption for active duty military, which it why it was not illegal to buy them on base with ID).

The law does not make posessing magazines illegal. Many folks here on calguns have many, many, higher then 10 capacity magazines and they are legal to own and use, with the understanding that you can't do the above items or the punishment is worse then robbing a quickie mart.

Solidux
05-31-2012, 2:05 AM
The law does not make posessing magazines illegal. Many folks here on calguns have many, many, higher then 10 capacity magazines and they are legal to own and use, with the understanding that you can't do the above items or the punishment is worse then robbing a quickie mart.

Just to be clear. Using a higher capacity handgun magazine is different than using a high capacity rifle magazine? There is NO WAY you can say you got the Pmags before the ban because of magpul not existing at that time (I love it when I hear the guys at the range say that. I dont argue though because they are set in their mind they can use them if they say that)

Sir Stunna Lot
05-31-2012, 4:27 AM
Using a higher capacity handgun magazine is different than using a high capacity rifle magazine?

There is NO WAY you can say you got the Pmags before the ban because of magpul not existing at that time

Correction on both counts:

the "use" of a high cap mag (in terms of penal code) is exactly the same whether it is for a handgun or rifle. the penal code i listed above makes no discrimination against one type of firearm or another. (the only restriction is that you cant create an assault rifle with a high cap mag with an illegal firearm configuration; example: high cap mag + bullet button)

it is absolutely POSSIBLE to have a legal high cap P-mag. one can repair his older legal pre-ban high cap mag with the body (or any other part) of a brand new p-mag "kit".

ubet
05-31-2012, 4:40 AM
RMP91, quit spreading FUD around.

voiceofreason
05-31-2012, 5:29 AM
good thread, someone should run this by Jason Davis or Chuck Michel and get their opinions.

SanPedroShooter
05-31-2012, 5:40 AM
Reading some of the first few responses, I had to check the date and see if it wasnt from way back in the day or something.... Things were a bit less settled back then, if the posts on CGN are anything to go by.

I would think because they were bought lawfully in state after the ban, they are in, and thats the end of it, but that is pure speculation on my part.

Have him break them down into their constituent parts, and seek better advice than an internet forum. He cant be the first guy to legally buy standard cap mags under the mil exemption, get his discharge, and stay in California...

I have a pretty good idea of what most guys do with their mags when they get out, and its not 'mail them to Nevada'......

Bobby Hated
05-31-2012, 6:01 AM
Sounds legal to me. He can just keep them and use them as long as he is not creating an AW (by using it in a fixed mag rifle).

The above items are illegal (with a unquoted exemption for active duty military, which it why it was not illegal to buy them on base with ID).

The law does not make posessing magazines illegal. Many folks here on calguns have many, many, higher then 10 capacity magazines and they are legal to own and use, with the understanding that you can't do the above items or the punishment is worse then robbing a quickie mart.

:thumbsup:

mag360
05-31-2012, 6:01 AM
possession isn't illegal and keep your yap shut if questioned? My $0.02. You technically came into possession legally, and there is no clarification on the books relating to US military acquisitions.

Mute
05-31-2012, 6:44 AM
Just to be clear. Using a higher capacity handgun magazine is different than using a high capacity rifle magazine? There is NO WAY you can say you got the Pmags before the ban because of magpul not existing at that time (I love it when I hear the guys at the range say that. I dont argue though because they are set in their mind they can use them if they say that)

What they can say is that they've rebuilt all the pre-ban large capacity mags with Mapul parts (even if it's every single part), which IS legal as long as you don't end up with more large capacity magazine than when you started.

CHS
05-31-2012, 7:42 AM
He lawfully purchased large-capacity magazines that were imported into the state by an exempt body (the US Military).

He now lawfully possesses large-capacity magazines in the state of California.

He can continue to keep, possess, and use those magazines in the state of California. He does not have to do anything silly like disassemble them or block them to 10rd's.

HOWEVER.

Since those magazines were not possessed in the state of California before the year 2000, he CANNOT leave California with them and re-import them. So he can't use his large-capacity magazines in Arizona for a weekend and bring them back to CA. People that have "pre-ban", i.e. pre-2000 magazines in CA are allowed to re-import their magazines after they have left the state. It's a weird thing with the law, but it's there nonetheless.

dantodd
05-31-2012, 7:54 AM
As usual CHS nails it. The importation is controlled and since the military imported them for him to buy on base there was no law broken. Once he possesses them legally in CA he may continue to possess them indefinitely, including rebuilding them if/when the parts wear out.

This is very much like police officers who buy or are issued large capacity magazines while working as an LEO. They get to keep the magazines just as your cousin can.

clutchy
05-31-2012, 8:07 AM
rmp91, can i ask, the whole repair kit thing, in my understanding of it is you needed to have a legally owned 30 round mag prior to the ban that needed to be repaired correct? i mean, if you have a repair kit, someone searches your house with a warrant and you have like 10 un assembled mags, they can easily make a case that you were producing high capacity mags right?

no no no no...


You are legally allowed to own repair kits.

There's alot of fluff running around in this thread. You guys needs to read the sticky on magazines.

SARC_Mike
05-31-2012, 8:09 AM
Ok,
I've been monitoring this thread because I have stacks of my old m16/m4 mags that hold 30. Bought them up while I was in the military. When I got out they went into a closet. I dont even own an AR (right now).
So the bottom line seems to be:
I purchased them legally while expemt (active duty military)
I can posses and more importantly USE them legally....yes...no???
I CANNOT sell, give, lend them to anybody ever while in the state of Ca.
If I take them with me to New Mexico/Arizona/Timbucktooo I can not bring them back

Am I getting it?

I hope so I dont want to have to get rid of my cherished mags

dantodd
05-31-2012, 8:15 AM
Ok,
I've been monitoring this thread because I have stacks of my old m16/m4 mags that hold 30. Bought them up while I was in the military. When I got out they went into a closet. I dont even own an AR (right now).
So the bottom line seems to be:
I purchased them legally while expemt (active duty military)
I can posses and more importantly USE them legally....yes...no???
I CANNOT sell, give, lend them to anybody ever while in the state of Ca.
If I take them with me to New Mexico/Arizona/Timbucktooo I can not bring them back

Am I getting it?

I hope so I dont want to have to get rid of my cherished mags

Assuming you left the service while in CA you are good to go. If you left the military in another state and then brought them in to CA as civilian then you violated the law while bringing them in.

SARC_Mike
05-31-2012, 8:23 AM
Assuming you left the service while in CA you are good to go. If you left the military in another state and then brought them in to CA as civilian then you violated the law while bringing them in.

I did seperate from a Ca station.
SWEET!

RMP91
05-31-2012, 11:47 AM
RMP91, quit spreading FUD around.

How exactly is it FUD?

I don't like the prospect of taking chances/risks with "vague" gun laws. Better safe than sorry (and in jail and on Prohibited status) I say.

tba02
05-31-2012, 12:19 PM
I can posses and more importantly USE them legally....yes...no???


Assuming you left the service while in CA you are good to go. If you left the military in another state and then brought them in to CA as civilian then you violated the law while bringing them in.

And you are not using them in a fixed magazine configuration (and it is not a RAW).

The Chart
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

Magazine Info
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=387409

unusedusername
05-31-2012, 12:23 PM
*sigh*

This part of the law may be complex, but it isn't vauge. It has been throughly hashed out already.

Whatever happened to that "All you need to know about magazines" sticky that used to be at the top of this forum?

CGF board members have already gone on record saying that if anyone is arrested for "posession of high capacity magazines" that they will recieve free lawyering and some money from the winnings when the agency involved recieves the smack down.

Please don't be afraid to use your legal >10 round magazines in the same way and for the same reasons that most folks are no longer afraid to use off-list-lower AR-15 style rifles.

Aldemar
05-31-2012, 1:56 PM
I'm not sure of something here....Assuming one has several pre-ban 20 or 30 round USGI aluminum magazines, it's OK to import PMAG repair kits, destroy or disassemble the originals and them assemble the PMAGS even though the PMAGS were not available until after the ban went into effect?

I know it's sketchy to have a 10+ magazine for a gun that was not available prior to the ban date (assuming it's a mag unique to the gun). But it looks like this doesn't hold true for magazine brands of materials (?).

bigmike82
05-31-2012, 1:58 PM
I'm not sure of something here....Assuming one has several pre-ban 20 or 30 round USGI aluminum magazines, it's OK to import PMAG repair kits, destroy or disassemble the originals and them assemble the PMAGS even though the PMAGS were not available until after the ban went into effect?

No. Now you're manufacturing new magazines.

You can, however, *replace* worn parts with new parts.

tba02
05-31-2012, 2:17 PM
*sigh*

Whatever happened to that "All you need to know about magazines" sticky that used to be at the top of this forum?

Magazines: all the answers you need (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=387409)

Read the whole thing, but I was specifically referencing
* Note: it is not a part of the "large-capacity magazine" law, but part of the 'assault weapon' law that says a semiautomatic, centerfire rifle with a fixed magazine that holds more than 10 rounds is an 'assault weapon'.

That means that
if your otherwise legal semiautomatic, centerfire rifle has a magazine lock, such as a 'bullet button',
and you use a "large-capacity magazine" in that weapon, (which, because of the magazine lock is effectively a fixed magazine rifle)
then you will have manufactured an 'assault weapon'.
That's a felony. Don't do that.

NOTE: A Registered Assault Weapon (RAW) is already an 'assault weapon', and not included in this problem. If you have a RAW, use any magazine you legally own.

unusedusername
05-31-2012, 2:31 PM
No. Now you're manufacturing new magazines.

You can, however, *replace* worn parts with new parts.

Yes, and since there is a way to replace all the parts (one part at a time) from a USGI mag to a PMAG and the PMAG will work in the same gun as the USGI mag then it is possible to have PMAGs built legally from repair kits.

Doing this is a pain as you need to deform (break) a follower to do it, but it can be done as long as you never need your old USGI followers again after rebuilding the magazines into PMAGs.

Now if you try to go from a USGI mag to a Beta C drum then that's a bit of a stretch IMHO.

The OP however was asking a different question, since he started with PMAGs in the first place there was no "rebuilding" involved.

Edit to add: yes, tba02, I agree on the dangers of crating an AW by putting a >10 round magazine into a BBed AR. It does not affect the legality of the magazine though, just don't make an AW with them as making an AW has a harsher sentence then robbing a quick-e-mart.

D4ZORT
05-31-2012, 2:41 PM
He lawfully purchased large-capacity magazines that were imported into the state by an exempt body (the US Military).

He now lawfully possesses large-capacity magazines in the state of California.

He can continue to keep, possess, and use those magazines in the state of California. He does not have to do anything silly like disassemble them or block them to 10rd's.

HOWEVER.

Since those magazines were not possessed in the state of California before the year 2000, he CANNOT leave California with them and re-import them. So he can't use his large-capacity magazines in Arizona for a weekend and bring them back to CA. People that have "pre-ban", i.e. pre-2000 magazines in CA are allowed to re-import their magazines after they have left the state. It's a weird thing with the law, but it's there nonetheless.

If he found a gun bag in the desert with hi cap mags, he could legally keep them? He just couldn't leave with them out of CA and return, correct?

tba02
05-31-2012, 2:50 PM
unusedusername - yup I concur and I drifted the thread slightly as the interaction between post #32 and #33 worried me as potentially dangerous were proper usage not clarified.

D4ZORT
05-31-2012, 2:58 PM
Here is another question? If an Officer has to destroy or reduce from a 30rd to a 10rd mag after he retires. Why doesn't a military person? Currious the difference since some said the military personal is exempt and LEO isn't after retirement. I also thought I read that a LEO can't put a hi cap mag from his duty weapon into his personal weapon. Once retired, it is no longer a duty weapon. Did I read wrong? Please explain.

Digital_Boy
05-31-2012, 5:14 PM
Ok,
I've been monitoring this thread because I have stacks of my old m16/m4 mags that hold 30. Bought them up while I was in the military. When I got out they went into a closet. I dont even own an AR (right now).
So the bottom line seems to be:
I purchased them legally while exempt (active duty military)
Yes. CA law and federal law specifically exempt military personnel on active duty from the standard cap ban. LEOs whose departments allow them to purchase and personally own "assault weapons" for on-duty use are allowed to keep whatever rifle and magazines they owned prior to retirement. Military personnel EASing are similarly allowed to retain their standard cap rifle and pistol magazines for personal use. If you plan to stay in CA, keeping a copy of your separation paperwork in the range bag might be a good idea.


I can posses and more importantly USE them legally....yes...no???
Yes, with the caveat that the cannot be legally used in a configuration that would trigger the semi-auto ban, i.e. in a pistol grip equipped rifle with either a standard mag release or a bullet button. You can configure a featureless AR pattern rifle and use the standard caps with a standard mag release legally. Or use one of the other rifles available that utilize AR magazines, like the Kel-Tec SU-16CA or similar.


I CANNOT sell, give, lend them to anybody ever while in the state of Ca.
Correct. I believe that there is standing precedent that allows you to let someone use them legally so long as you are always in the immediate vicinity though.


If I take them with me to New Mexico/Arizona/Timbucktooo I can not bring them back
Incorrect. If you owned them on or before 1/1/2000 in the state of CA, they are yours forever, and you can travel freely with them. You are also allowed to purchase components (bodies, followers, floorplates, springs) of any contemporary manufacture to rebuild the ones you own to working condition. Say you're at the range and drop a USGI 30 round magazine, then step on it, and the mag body is crushed. You can order a PMAG of the same capacity and rebuild it legally. So long as the number of complete, >10 round magazines never exceeds what you originally owned before 1/1/2000, you can have as many pieces on hand as you can afford to own.



Am I getting it?

I hope so I dont want to have to get rid of my cherished mags
You've got the general gist of it.

Digital_Boy
05-31-2012, 5:21 PM
If an Officer has to destroy or reduce from a 30rd to a 10rd mag after he retires. Why doesn't a military person?

The answer is, they don't. If a LEO has a personally owned RAW that was lettered by their superiors, then they can keep it after they retire, and any >10 round magazines that they might have purchased for it at any time prior to their retirement from active duty. They then become subject to the same restrictions on transport and usage of their RAW as any non-LEO who registered theirs before CA DOJ closed the door on new registrations.

dantodd
05-31-2012, 7:04 PM
The answer is, they don't. If a LEO has a personally owned RAW that was lettered by their superiors, then they can keep it after they retire, and any >10 round magazines that they might have purchased for it at any time prior to their retirement from active duty. They then become subject to the same restrictions on transport and usage of their RAW as any non-LEO who registered theirs before CA DOJ closed the door on new registrations.

The AW law is different from the large capacity magazine (LCM) law. The LCM is clear that any legally acquired magazine can be retained because only their acquisition, importation, and manufacture are illegal. Possession of legally acquired mags is never illegal.

The AW law is less clear. It is clearly illegal to possess an unregistered AW but the status of an AW registered to a police officer is unclear when the officer quits, retires or transfers out from the dept. that provided the letter used for acquisition. It is the AG's opinion that such continued possession is a felony. The law does not directly address what happens but does say that the AW is to be used in the course of their job.

dantodd
05-31-2012, 7:08 PM
Yes, you read wrong, or what you read was incorrect. There is no law restricting the possession or use of Large Capacity Magazines (though some uses would violate the AW laws.)

The LCM law only regulates manner of acquisition, not possession. The only peculiarity of the law has to do with "re-importing" magazines. There was an exception to the importation restriction for "per-ban" but that exemption doesn't cover magazines legally acquired though other means.

Here is another question? If an Officer has to destroy or reduce from a 30rd to a 10rd mag after he retires. Why doesn't a military person? Currious the difference since some said the military personal is exempt and LEO isn't after retirement. I also thought I read that a LEO can't put a hi cap mag from his duty weapon into his personal weapon. Once retired, it is no longer a duty weapon. Did I read wrong? Please explain.

chris
05-31-2012, 7:20 PM
Just tell him to disassemble them and keep them for trips to a free state and to buy some 10 rd mags for use in PRK.

yeah take them apart. no problem no issue

Yes, tell him to keep them all. I still have my 189 30-round magazines I aquired when I left the Marines in '97. Most have been repaired with pmag bodies and anti-tilt followers.

most of my mags are from 91 and sat for many years before i was able to buy an AR now i have replaced the springs in most and put in the PMAG followers for the GI mag.

Digital_Boy
05-31-2012, 8:35 PM
The AW law is less clear. It is clearly illegal to possess an unregistered AW but the status of an AW registered to a police officer is unclear when the officer quits, retires or transfers out from the dept. that provided the letter used for acquisition. It is the AG's opinion that such continued possession is a felony. The law does not directly address what happens but does say that the AW is to be used in the course of their job.

At present, it's only an opinion and has no binding force under law, and those LEOs who have RAWs that were purchased before they retired are 100% legal in owning them. If they (CA DOJ) decide to change that, it's going to open a big can of worms from the retired LEOs themselves, their union representatives and such civil rights groups as CGF and NRA over equal protection and RTKBA issues. I haven't really paid attention to the repercussions of Brown's parting shot before he left office as the AG.

dantodd
05-31-2012, 10:22 PM
At present, it's only an opinion and has no binding force under law, and those LEOs who have RAWs that were purchased before they retired are 100% legal in owning them.

This is simply not true. There have been no prosecutions but the official opinion of the top law enforcement office in the state is that retaining possession post-separation from the dept. that signed their letter is a violation of the law as currently written. It is clearly not "100% legal" as you said. it is probably "safe" for officers to retain their RAWs at this time as the DOJ seems to have no interest in pursuing the isue and will probably provide a warning before they choose to enforce the law.