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VTX
05-30-2012, 5:46 PM
Anyone buy one of these? Legality? Seems easier than 80%

http://www.americanspiritarms.com/lower-receivers/asa-m4-ar-15-95-percent-lower-receiver/

P.Charm
05-30-2012, 5:51 PM
that still looks like an 80%

ke6guj
05-30-2012, 5:53 PM
Anyone buy one of these? Legality? Seems easier than 80%

http://www.americanspiritarms.com/lower-receivers/asa-m4-ar-15-95-percent-lower-receiver/
That lower, as pictured has everything done except the FCG pocket and holes, which is exactly how TM and the other sell them.. "80%" is an industry term, not a legal term. ATF does not say that something is 80% complete, they just say it is or isn't a firearm.

Bhobbs
05-30-2012, 5:59 PM
They can label it a 99.999% lower but it still looks like the same work needed as other 80% lowers.

old151
05-30-2012, 6:51 PM
And why are incomplete lowers always more expensive that the completed ones?

VTX
05-30-2012, 7:34 PM
And why are incomplete lowers always more expensive that the completed ones?
Good Ol America greed, and the sellers thinking buyers will pay more if they "think" uncle sam doesn't know they have them....

Bhobbs
05-30-2012, 7:49 PM
And why are incomplete lowers always more expensive that the completed ones?

They wire EDM the mag wells. Wire EDM is a slow, expensive process. I think a lot of companies broach the mag well instead. I don't know if that's why it's so much more expensive but it may be part of it.

ke6guj
05-30-2012, 7:53 PM
And why are incomplete lowers always more expensive that the completed ones?

how do you figure?

off-hand, I know of two vendors tthat offer both 80% and 100% options, and both have the 80% version priced less than their 100% version. So, they are charging less for less work done.

Now, the fact that other vendors might offer their 100% versions for less than these vendors offer their 80% and 100% options might have to do with economies of scale due to larger volumes.

MrPlink
05-30-2012, 7:56 PM
Also keep in mind, no FFL for a 80%, so they end up even cheaper.

VTX
05-30-2012, 8:50 PM
Do you have to register an 80% rifle once it completed???

edwardjames
05-30-2012, 9:29 PM
Do you have to register an 80% rifle once it completed???

Nope! not if its for your own personal use. but i think in order to sell it(or transfer it), you need to have it engraved with a serial number, model, location of manufacture, caliber, etc.... and it has to be engraved to a specific depth.

otherwise selling would not be a legal option.

old151
05-30-2012, 10:37 PM
how do you figure?

off-hand, I know of two vendors tthat offer both 80% and 100% options, and both have the 80% version priced less than their 100% version. So, they are charging less for less work done.

Now, the fact that other vendors might offer their 100% versions for less than these vendors offer their 80% and 100% options might have to do with economies of scale due to larger volumes.

ASA is the first company I see which offers a complete and not complete AR lower. But looking at their Retail Price alone a $10 difference?? Come on buddy I don't see $10 of operation cost in that. I just don't

Now referring back to the original link posted here. My first stripped AR lower was the Aero Precision M4 AR-15 Stripped Lower Receiver. $60 shipped. Now they have this one listed at $90 my FFL is going to charge me $50. That is what I think these company see $$$. They play the consumer, you and I to think its a good deal. All they see is to put more green in the coffers.

I think Aero Precision would be the perfect company to cut the Bull, sit down, calculate the cost, make their money and give the consumer looking to complete a 80%, or not complete lower, a fair shake.

Someone please School me in the cost of operations when it comes to machining these AR15 lower on a mass production scale.

Personmans
05-30-2012, 10:49 PM
Since most of these are forged, I assume that they buy a second mold for forging that is incomplete, or they buy the 80% and finish the 'completed lowers' themselves.
In the first case, they spend $xx,xxx to set up a second mold that has less demand and though it cost the same (or more because of opportunity cost) to make as a completed lower the lower demand drives price down a bit.
In the second case, they don't do any machining to the 80% lowers (and the company forging the lowers doesn't need an FFL!), but they actually have to machine every one of their completed lowers. This would be a good explanation for the slightly higher cost that we see.

Just my speculation.

WDE91
05-30-2012, 10:51 PM
that looks like an overpriced 80%er to me...

for a basic 80%er my two tactical machining lowers went very smoothly

VTX
05-30-2012, 10:54 PM
So i cant buy a stripped lower and make it a pistol because it has to be drossed as a pistol?( or can a 007 ffl dealer dros a strpped lower for me as a pistol??) or do i have to start with an 80%??

ke6guj
05-30-2012, 11:26 PM
ASA is the first company I see which offers a complete and not complete AR lower. But looking at their Retail Price alone a $10 difference?? Come on buddy I don't see $10 of operation cost in that. I just don't

Tactical Maching sells 80% AR15 lowers for $80 raw and $90 anodized. Their 100% receiver is $109
Their 80% .308 receivers are $190 raw, $200 anodized, and $229 for 100%.

those are retail prices, and you can get them for less in bulk.

now, my guess is that the amount of extra machine cost to go from 80% to 100% is very small, just a couple minutes of tool time, with just a few lines of code removed/disabled, so the cost differential probably isn't very much.


Now referring back to the original link posted here. My first stripped AR lower was the Aero Precision M4 AR-15 Stripped Lower Receiver. $60 shipped. Now they have this one listed at $90 my FFL is going to charge me $50. That is what I think these company see $$$. They play the consumer, you and I to think its a good deal. All they see is to put more green in the coffers.realize that AP cranks out a ton of lowers, so their economies of scale allow them to sell their lowers at a cheaper price than other companies do. Does that mean that all the other vendors are trying to rip you off? No. That just means that AP has a better price for their product and has an advantage for those that shop price-point only.

I think Aero Precision would be the perfect company to cut the Bull, sit down, calculate the cost, make their money and give the consumer looking to complete a 80%, or not complete lower, a fair shake.

Someone please School me in the cost of operations when it comes to machining these AR15 lower on a mass production scale.

perhaps AP sees 80% as a waste of time to them and not worth the hassle when they can sell all the 100%'ers they can make already. Made up example, AP produces 500k 100% receivers per year in one configuration only. They only track one SKU through production and through inventory. Add in a new 80% SKU that they think they will sell 10k per year, but possibly use a different jig to machine them. They need to swap the CAD program to the 80% program. They also need to have those receivers skip the rollmarking/serial number process, so now they have an additional change in their normal process. They then need to keep track of that SKU for storing inventory and for sales. They are now dealing with onesy-twosey end-user sales, where before their 100% receiver was only sold wholesale in bulk. They could easily decide to sell the 80% product for the same price, or more, than they sell the 100% for since it might be more work for them to sell a less complete product.

Personmans
05-30-2012, 11:59 PM
now, my guess is that the amount of extra machine cost to go from 80% to 100% is very small, just a couple minutes of tool time, with just a few lines of code removed/disabled, so the cost differential probably isn't very much.


Maybe a bit off topic, but do you (or anyone) know the actual manufacturing process?

I mean, do most companies start with a 0%/10% forged lower and machine from there? Or is it possible to forge an 80%-100% lower (the mag well undercut should be doable) that requires minimal/no machining?

Perhaps they also include the cost of ITAR fees (~$2,250/year) in the sale of 100% lowers, but not 80%.

aplinker
05-31-2012, 1:02 AM
(almost) All of the "manufacturers" buy the raw forgings from a small handful of companies. There are forging marks visible on upper receivers. Lowers aren't marked generally (yes, there are exceptions). They then cut and finish them according to their own specification, following reverse engineered Colts, the TDP if they have it from the mil, or the parts of the mil-specs that are public record.




Maybe a bit off topic, but do you (or anyone) know the actual manufacturing process?

I mean, do most companies start with a 0%/10% forged lower and machine from there? Or is it possible to forge an 80%-100% lower (the mag well undercut should be doable) that requires minimal/no machining?

Perhaps they also include the cost of ITAR fees (~$2,250/year) in the sale of 100% lowers, but not 80%.

Zartan
05-31-2012, 5:39 AM
I'm happy with my 81%er

CHAD PEZZLE
05-31-2012, 8:08 AM
I've never seen a raw forging with the mag well already in it. Not saying it's impossible but I just don't think anyone does it.

Manufacturing processes vary from each company. Some mag wells are cut with wire edm some are cut with a broach. Some manufacturers have brand new 5 axis machines with huge tomb stones that can accommodate multiple lowers and others can only handle one at a time. The initial forging and the final product are generally the same, the processes used to finish the part can vary greatly which can affect the price of the lower whether it's an 80% or not.

Chad

old151
05-31-2012, 5:07 PM
I'm happy with my 81%er

:rofl2: