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mud99
05-29-2012, 12:56 PM
I just got back from doing a PPT on a Saiga from a local gun store.

When the store owner saw we were transferring a Saiga, he said "We don't transfer AK's"

I told him it isn't an AK, it is a Saiga.

He said it's the same thing and it is illegal because it has a detachable magazine.

Meanwhile, 3 feet to my right, they are showing a customer an M1A with more evil features than the Saiga has.

I politely informed him that it doesn't have a pistol grip, so is perfectly legal.

He got really pissed off, and said "i'm not transferring it but one of you can", to one of his employees behind the counter and stormed off, and we proceeded with the transfer.

So here is my question - how do we educate ignorant store owners about what is legal and what is not? I have seen and heard so much FUD regarding legal issues in gun stores, and the worst part is that many of these stores seem unwilling to change even when you call them out on their misinformation.

The flowcharts are good on their own, but is their any sort of a booklet created to guide FFL's through all of the various laws?

wildhawker
05-29-2012, 1:00 PM
www.calffl.org and www.calgunsfoundation.org.

Help us reach out to more gun dealers. Make sure your FFLs are part of the solution.

-Brandon

Decoligny
05-29-2012, 1:01 PM
If an illiterate person sees no reason to learn how to read, how can you teach them to read? You can't.

Same thing here. The gun store workers/owners who think they know all the answers are simply unwilling to even admit that they don't. Therefore, any attempt to educate them on what the law really says is seen by them as an attempt to make them look stupid.

So, just find the places where they actually know their posterior from a hole in the ground, and do business there.

Curley Red
05-29-2012, 1:15 PM
So the store owner said he would not do it because it was illegal, but he had no problem letting one of his other employee's doing it. this makes no sense to me what so ever.

If it is his shop, his is still responsible no matter which employee does the transfer.

ICONIC
05-29-2012, 1:15 PM
Find another FFL to do the transfer, (in the future). I would rather drive a little further, than to support an FFL who spreads FUD.

I stopped going to Martin B. Retting after I got hassled for wanting to transfer some OLLs. I do all my business at Ammos Bros in Cerritos and I never have had a single issue.

paul0660
05-29-2012, 1:20 PM
So the store owner said he would not do it because it was illegal, but he had no problem letting one of his other employee's doing it. this makes no sense to me what so ever.

Yes, if the owner was the person who said that, he doesn't even know what CYA means.

I have had success being mild and reasonable in gun shops, allowing them to educate me, and politely asking to see the rule in the book (which they do have, somewhere). It is uncomfortable when they cannot find it.

fd15k
05-29-2012, 1:33 PM
Yes, if the owner was the person who said that, he doesn't even know what CYA means.

I have had success being mild and reasonable in gun shops, allowing them to educate me, and politely asking to see the rule in the book (which they do have, somewhere). It is uncomfortable when they cannot find it.

I brought my copy of Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide once to a PPT of a C&R handgun. Gun store employee said the law in the book does not exist, because it's a 2005 publication (transfer was taking place in 2010).

mud99
05-29-2012, 1:37 PM
I have seen a whole lot more fail at this gun store as well. They don't clear guns that customers bring in AT ALL, allowing them to wave an unknown gun around the store, they treat customers like crap, and they give bad legal advice to people.

On one occasion I overheard a woman who said her late husband had a revolver, and she didn't know if it was loaded but she wanted to bring it in to sell it.

They advised her to stick it a paper bag and bring it into the store and they would figure it out. They could have shown her a revolver and given her a brief safety demonstration, but instead they advise her to commit a crime and endanger her safety.

On another occasion, A coworker of mine went into the store, picked out a handgun, and was in the process of buying it. Then another customer started asking questions, and the guy grabbed the gun, stuck the gun back in the display case and literally said "we're busy, come back later"

As to why I don't go elsewhere - I bring all my PPT's there because it is close by, they always have room in their lock up, and I figure they lose money on it anyway, so why would I bring a PPT to a store I like?

I hate the store, but I would rather they get their act in order so that one day they are a decent store.

mud99
05-29-2012, 1:40 PM
Yes, that was the funniest part.

So the store owner said he would not do it because it was illegal, but he had no problem letting one of his other employee's doing it. this makes no sense to me what so ever.

If it is his shop, his is still responsible no matter which employee does the transfer.

CSACANNONEER
05-29-2012, 1:42 PM
Out the store so, I know where to avoid.

mud99
05-29-2012, 1:44 PM
It is in the Bay Area. If any of you would like to know which store, PM me and I will tell you privately. I don't want them to know who I am as they are in possession of my property

mud99
05-29-2012, 1:44 PM
It is in the Bay Area. If any of you would like to know which store, PM me and I will tell you privately. I don't want them to know who I am as they are in possession of my property

SJgunguy24
05-29-2012, 1:45 PM
Nowhere does it say one needs to be a grown up to have an FFL, only you must be 21.
If I'm wrong, I'll admit it, if I don't know, we'll look it up. That's part of being an adult, admitting your shortcomings and doing something about it.
Now when I see other FFL's lying for profit, I'll say something and I'll have the proof to back it up.

SJgunguy24
05-29-2012, 1:46 PM
It is in the Bay Area. If any of you would like to know which store, PM me and I will tell you privately. I don't want them to know who I am as they are in possession of my property

Sportsman Supply

mud99
05-29-2012, 1:55 PM
Nope, this store is way worse than that, and further north.

strongpoint
05-29-2012, 2:46 PM
"never try to teach a pig to sing. it wastes your time, and it annoys the pig."

paul0660
05-29-2012, 2:50 PM
Gun store employee said the law in the book does not exist, because it's a 2005 publication (transfer was taking place in 2010).

That is why I ask to see their book.

fd15k
05-29-2012, 3:49 PM
That is why I ask to see their book.

They didn't have one :)

dave_cg
05-29-2012, 7:28 PM
Sportsman Supply

That seems uncalled for. That was a speculative shot in the dark. If you have an issue with SS, then post it appropriately, don't tag their name onto any random thread about a problem with a gun store.

For the record, I've bought at SS and was always treated professionally and got good service. Obviously, you may have had a different experience, but there is a right and a wrong way to air your complaint.

stix213
05-29-2012, 9:35 PM
This reminds me of when Imbert & Smithers, another bay area shop, refused to do a ppt on my completely stock Saiga 308 because they didn't have a class 3 license. :facepalm:

Tier One Arms
05-29-2012, 9:51 PM
Shop somewhere else if you can, these types of gun stores are part of the problem.

KWB977
05-29-2012, 9:55 PM
Good example in Fresno, there is a gun shop I have been going to since 1997, mostly for gunsmith work, they do not like to sell ARs etc, they get real preachy about it, and I never really see that many people in there let alone their inventory is mostly garbage or pay first and we order it for you............. on the other side of town there is a shop that sells everything, they do SSE, sell EBRS etc..... they always have a line and if not a line the shop is always busy. GEEEEEEEEEE wonder why. I mean obviously they would not be still in business this long if they were not doing something right, but the point is that these shops should not be preaching to people, especially customers, chances are the customer knows more about it then they do, and they will just take their money elsewhere.

mud99
05-29-2012, 10:08 PM
I don't "shop" there, I just do PPT's. My understanding is that most FFL's don't like doing PPT's because they barely make any money, so I thought I was doing the world a favor by bringing my PPT's to them.

I buy all my guns and ammo elsewhere. The ammo they sell at this place is ludicrously expensive as well, we are talking 2x the price of most retail stores.

Shop somewhere else if you can, these types of gun stores are part of the problem.

mud99
05-29-2012, 10:10 PM
I'm fairly certain the owner would have a meltdown and throw me out of the store if I asked to see their book.

That is why I ask to see their book.

Hank Dodge
05-29-2012, 10:20 PM
.........I bring all my PPT's there because it is close by, they always have room in their lock up, and I figure they lose money on it anyway, so why would I bring a PPT to a store I like?


LOL!!!! That is great! Doing the PPT transactions are an extreme pain in the butt for gun shops. The state mandates that they be done, but the shop really doesn't make anything on the deal. Why burden the guys you like with all the extra paperwork?

I guess it really goes both ways though. If the shop is cool about it, it's a chance for them to pick up a new customer and maybe make a sale or two out of the deal. I laughed at Mud99 because the last PPT I did was at a place in the east bay and the guys there seemed to be doing all they could to drive away business.

SJgunguy24
05-29-2012, 10:53 PM
That seems uncalled for. That was a speculative shot in the dark. If you have an issue with SS, then post it appropriately, don't tag their name onto any random thread about a problem with a gun store.

For the record, I've bought at SS and was always treated professionally and got good service. Obviously, you may have had a different experience, but there is a right and a wrong way to air your complaint.

Like I said, when I see shop employee's flat lie to customers to make a buck I call them on it, and have the proof to back my case.
The OP's story sounds like so many i've heard many times with people's experiences at Sportsman Supply. Lying about the law to make money, illegal "handling fees" to boost ppt $$, telling people the guns they sell are the only legal ones because "they got the OK from the DOJ". I'll send you a pm.
PPT's aren't that bad to do. It's a requirement for having an FFL and only takes 10 minutes to take care of. You never know that PPT could turn into a big sale, why the attitude is something i'll never get. Half the time the employee is doing nothing anyway.

tenpercentfirearms
05-30-2012, 6:10 AM
He was just trying to get out of doing the PPT. I try tactics like that all the time.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=450737&highlight=ppt

taperxz
05-30-2012, 6:44 AM
He was just trying to get out of doing the PPT. I try tactics like that all the time.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=450737&highlight=ppt

Heh, I was waiting for you to say this. I was thinking the exact same thing.

FastFinger
05-30-2012, 8:16 AM
He was just trying to get out of doing the PPT. I try tactics like that all the time.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=450737&highlight=ppt

Thanks for posting that link, first time I've read you original post. Very clever. "Being paid to advertise" - oh the inhumanity of it all!


The overall thread, that is mostly the replies, does make me wonder if CGN should have a mandatory check box before a post is published;

This reply is:
□ serious
□ sarcastic
□ I have no clue

For the record, with regards to this reply, "I have no clue."

CSACANNONEER
05-30-2012, 9:50 AM
That seems uncalled for. That was a speculative shot in the dark. If you have an issue with SS, then post it appropriately, don't tag their name onto any random thread about a problem with a gun store.

For the record, I've bought at SS and was always treated professionally and got good service. Obviously, you may have had a different experience, but there is a right and a wrong way to air your complaint.

I've seen enough complaints about SS to guess that it could have been them. I could guess a few other shops that I've never een to but have heard bad things about. But, why give those bad shops extra name recognition?

hammerhead_77
05-30-2012, 12:37 PM
Check out my thread on an encounter I had...
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=539952

Now, this guy is a very well regarded gunsmith - a real one, not a warmed over armorer. Known in the area for a very, very long time, etc...

How do you have a business and not do all you can to understand the laws regarding your vocation? Its like a dentist not keeping up on current practices, or a doctor not staying abreast of new drugs and therapies....

SilverTauron
05-30-2012, 1:18 PM
When it comes to FFL's and lies, as a customer I don't play judge and jury.

Here's why.

In order to turn a profit an FFL has to appease three conflicting interests;and sometimes a fourth.

1) ATF. This agency is so disorganized they don't know their own laws. If the FFL fails to appease the oracles at their local ATF Branch, bye bye license, livelihood, and possibly their freedom.
2) The Customer. Without their money buying product and services, no profits and no business.
3) The Manufacturers. No product means nothing to sell, obviously.

Party number 4 is state agencies like the California DOJ, to name one. Fail to make them happy,and the same problems you get from angering the ATF apply but on a state level instead.

Because keeping all these conflicting actors happy long enough to make a living involves the occasional deception, I don't get in the mix of judging the FFL if they make a call I dont like. If the FFL doesn't want to transfer a 'legal' weapon,it may be because the local State DOJ inspector is a nazi who's gonna pull their FFL license if he ever sees the word "Saiga" in the bound book. Obviously the dealer's not going to go into specifics about how the last time they transferred a Saiga they almost got locked up.

I once bought a pistol online, only to find out that my receiving FFL's license was "out of regulations". Turned out the selling FFL in Georgia had a slime ball ATF inspector that was a real stickler for legal minutae , so he needed an additional signature on a part of my receiving FFL's license.My local dealer never heard of the signature requirement in over 20 years of business.

All that is to say, maybe we should just take our business elsewhere instead of trying to launch some sort of campaign strong arming dealers to do what we want out of convenience.

FX-05 Xiuhcoatl
05-30-2012, 2:09 PM
I had something similar happen to me when I was making a deal with a fellow calgunner, the guy on the other side of the counter said sks norinco are not legal in the state of california, then another one said it has a bayonet is a felony to have it, I was cool as an ice cube and just let them talk, at the end we still did the transfer.

Gunsmith Dan
05-30-2012, 3:04 PM
Ahhh correct me if I am wrong here but ......

I was in the understanding that a semi auto shotgun with a detachable magazine, standard stock or evil pistol grip, was considered a assault weapon?

12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding Penal Code section 12276, “assault weapon” shall also mean the following:

Rifles
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of
the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10
rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

Pistols
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to
fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

Shotguns
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or
vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.


Unless I am confused and we are talking about a Saiga rifle??

mud99
05-30-2012, 3:13 PM
The only way a business adapts is by hearing feedback from customers.

If you don't ***** about it, they won't know what they did wrong, and they won't adapt, and they will eventually go out of business.

I would have been less offended had they put the rules on a sign, such as:

Store Rules
- We do not transfer Russian rifles, unless the owner isn't here.
- Handguns may only be viewed for 15 seconds before we rip them out of your hands and move on to the next customer
- We are nice people, you are the ***hole.
- NO OPEN CARRY. Loaded guns must be brought into store in a brown paper bag.
- Our legal advice sucks. You get what you pay for.


All that is to say, maybe we should just take our business elsewhere instead of trying to launch some sort of campaign strong arming dealers to do what we want out of convenience.

Librarian
05-30-2012, 3:14 PM
I think it's a Saiga rifle - no post in this thread prior to yours seems to refer to a shotgun.

And there are bullet-button equivalents for Saiga shotguns, I believe, but (6)(A) and (6)(B) still are limitations on their own; unlike rifles, fixing the 'detachable magazine' problem does not allow 'features' for semi-auto shotguns.

BTW, new PC numbering for that section is PC 30515 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/30515.html).

CSACANNONEER
05-30-2012, 3:16 PM
Unless I am confused and we are talking about a Saiga rifle??

The OP must be talking about a rifle because, he did mention "detachable magazine" which is fine on a stock Saiga rifle but not on a Saiga Shotgun.

Gunsmith Dan
05-30-2012, 3:49 PM
Yea there was no mention either way ..... was trying not to assume because in my line of work that can mean a ..... BOOM! then a "oops".

mud99
05-30-2012, 5:34 PM
This was a Saiga rifle, not a shotgun.

Gunsmith Dan
05-30-2012, 7:15 PM
Well nothing I can say about that .... the ATF and CA DOJ make it easy to find what is legal or not .... heck the ATF gives you a DVD with not only the Federal laws but all the state laws as well.

It is so easy to find the correct reference with the internet Firearms dealers, and gunsmiths, really don't have any excuse for not finiding out what is legal and not legal for them to sell/repair/customize.

Tacobandit
05-31-2012, 12:14 AM
same reason why theres 12 million illegals who have lived here 20 years and yet none of them speak english.