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webster-dl
05-29-2012, 1:07 AM
Yesterday, I attended a great Tactical Shotgun course with Civilian Arms Training. It was the first course I've ever attended, so I felt I had a lot to learn.

I brought and ran two shotguns, my Remington 870 tactical (with Elzetta mount, tactical light, Velcro 8-shot Side Saddle, Knoxx specops stock, and Barska Reflex sight) and my Mossberg 930 SPX. I used the 870 before lunch and the 930 after, but I ran most of the course with the 870. The weather was warm/hot and dusty (we were shooting in Burro Canyon in the Angeles National Forest).

We began with general orientation to the shotgun and orientation to course safety. We introduced ourselves to one another, and I found that in the class of about 16, there were about 15 870s and 1 Mossberg 500. Almost everyone brought an 870, of many different flavors. Pistol grip, non-pistol grip, Surefire, Knoxx stocks, and factory stock.

We went through many drills, including slug and buckshot patterning, moving and firing, firing from kneeling and supine, incapacitation drills, slug transitioning drills, rolling thunder, barricade and urban combat drills.

I got a bit of a sunburn, learned a lot of skills and about the limitations and capacities of myself and my equipment, and had a really good time.

Some lessons:
1) Side Saddle Shell holders are about as good as it gets when it comes to reloading the magazine quickly. It is far more handy than butt-stock or belt holders or pouches. This ease of use is multiplied manyfold if you are in any position other than standing. I think I am going to need Side Saddles on all of my shotguns.
2) At 25 yards, slugs are surprisingly accurate.
3) With the Knoxx stock on the 870, and the recoil-absorbing properties of the gas-operated system on the 930 SPX, I managed to get away without any bruises at all, despite firing about 9 slugs, 20-25 00 buck, and about 100-150 rounds of birdshot.
4) Shotguns (and the equipment on them) are HEAVY! And as the course went on, it got harder to shoot offhand or do anything other than shoot normally with both hands. I am sure if the course was even longer, it would be hard to even shoulder.
5) Pistol grips are TERRIBLE for doing incapacitation drills. For these, the normal stock is far better. Heck, I think if one becomes incapacitated, transitioning to a pistol is probably a better option than trying to operate the shotgun one-handed. Of course...racking the slide one handed probably stinks too.
6) The 930 SPX will bite your thumb while you are loading, and it is easy to have a shell spring out over the shell-holder catch and land over the elevator while you're trying to load...thereby jamming the elevator and preventing you from loading more shells until you empty the chamber and load the blocking shell into the chamber. I ended up using both hands to load, using my right thumb to hold up the elevator, and using my left hand to load.

870 Concerns:
I wanted to get you guys' input on this. During the course, I had about 3-4 malfunctions with the 870 before I switched to the 930 spx. My first malfunction consisted of a failure to extract a shell. The slide just got stuck, and no matter how hard I pulled on the slide I couldn't extract the shell. The instructor had to finally extract it for me. Since my 870 has a Knoxx stock, slamming the butt into the ground wasn't helpful (the knoxx would just absorb the shock). It just took lots of pulling before the shell came loose. The other malfunctions were the same, but I was able to extract the shell myself those times.

Now, I thought it was just me. But when we were running the Rolling Thunder Drill (where everyone loads their shotguns to max and tries to discharge all the rounds before moving on to the next person), I noticed that about 11 of the 15 870s (and possibly the Mossberg as well) had serious FTEs or other malfunctions as well. I noticed many people unable to get off all their shells because they would develop a FTE or other mechanical malfunction, and pretty soon I noticed most of the people in the class (including the 8 people in the other group) couldn't empty their mags because they would consistently run into malfunctions. I noticed that almost none of these malfunctions were "short-shucking"...this actually only happened a few times during the day. I myself also had 1 or 2 failures where the mag tube failed to eject a shell, so I ended up dropping the hammer on an empty chamber.

Now, I always considered the 870 one of the go-to guns for home defense. But the extreme number of FTE failures I saw today make me very concerned. I know Remington is supposed to have had quality issues, and the Express models are not as "polished" as the 870Ps, and I read that these FTEs are apparently due to a poorly polished chamber, but just about everyone started having serious FTE's halfway through their magazines and were only able to get off a few shells before a jam.

What is up with that? This high rate of FTEs seems very unacceptable, especially for the highly respected 870.

Should we rethink our position about the acceptability of the 870? Maybe it's no longer as reliable as we make it out to be, and definitely not always reliable enough to rely on for home defense.

What do you all think?

negolien
05-29-2012, 1:36 AM
Any chance fatigue played a role in this? Seems to me you really need to use some authority when ejecting rounds from a pump especially if at an odd angle.

webster-dl
05-29-2012, 1:46 AM
Nope...everyone was a little fatigued, but I don't think that was the problem. They weren't usually short-shucking, and the shells were pretty well stuck when they were pulling on the slide pretty firmly. They seemed to need to really muscle it to get the shells out.

LooseCannon
05-29-2012, 1:47 AM
I am very interested in the 930, how'd it treat you? Any issues besides the finger biting?

I've never been to a class like this:
Is an auto completely out of place in this type of class?
Would you take another course with the 930?

Note: For HD needs, I tend to think that the semi-auto is generally better (with speed and consistency) than I am.

ETA: Don't intend to thread jack but I included the note because I want one SG to do double duty.

LC

webster-dl
05-29-2012, 2:03 AM
I loved the 930 spx. I didn't run it as long as I did the 870, so it may not have had as much time to get "gunked up", but it was great. Aside from the finger biting, the biggest problem was that sometimes when I was loading, as soon as I dropped the elevator to reach for another round, the shell I just loaded would skip over the mag catch and slide over the elevator. As I would have already "combat loaded" a round into the chamber and closed the chamber for loading, I would then be unable to load any further shells until I cleared the shell over the elevator. The manual says that you need to really push the shell far into the mag tube to make sure the catch holds it, but I was pretty sure I was pushing them in reasonably far (not as far as my second thumb knuckle, but at least a little past my first knuckle), and this malfunction kept happening. That's why I used my other finger to hold up the elevator, so if this happened then the shell would fall to the ground. Still...having to use both hands to load a shotgun really is a problem -- it keeps you from being instantly ready in case you get surprised. I will need to use it more to see if the problem is a faulty shell catch (which I have read some people have had) or is it just that I need to get used to the 930.

A semi-auto was fine for the course (after all, the 930 SPX is a specifically TACTICAL shotgun), and would have been great for the incapacitation drills. I am thinking of running it if/when I get the opportunity to take another tactical shotgun class.

LooseCannon
05-29-2012, 2:13 AM
I haven't spend much time with a semi-auto shotgun, but I know a pump will kick shells back out of the tube too if you don't do it just right. I know from personal experience, happened to me at a local 3-gun meet, it wasn't so funny (then) with the clock running and me trying to stop what felt like a waterfall of shells, lol. :facepalm:

I've been wanting to buy a Semi and take it to a class like you did, but have wondered how they fit in.

madland
05-29-2012, 10:00 AM
Do you have a link or any other info regarding that class at Burro..dates,etc.? A few buddies from work have taken a tactical shotgun class there. Not sure who instructor,company, etc was. I definitely want to take a class there.
On another note..one of my buddies has a 930..has trouble with it every time we go up there. FTF and FTE. Just an FYI.

WildWildWest
05-29-2012, 10:27 AM
I was going to take my Savage Stevens 320 5+1 , the one with shoulder stock & pistol grip, to shotgun class, but still unsure if it turns out to be a complete failure :D.

Here's what it looks like, but mine does not have the ghost ring rear sight:

http://big5sportinggoods.shoplocal.com/big5/default.aspx?action=detail&storeid=2503823&rapid=0&listingid=-2067554794&offerid=

Anybody has any good/bad experience with these to chime in?

SuperSet
05-29-2012, 10:34 AM
I don't believe in the old adage about pumps being more reliable than semis given what I've seen in competition and classes. Were you using Winchester shells?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-228037.html

guyver hitmanx
05-29-2012, 11:21 AM
I've had FTE problems with the OD green "military" 00 buck made by winchester. I decided that those won't be used for HD. That was thru a mossberg 500.

webster-dl
05-29-2012, 12:20 PM
Madland: civilianarmstraining.com. Get a coupon at a gun show, though...drops price considerably.

Wildwildwest: I dont have any experience with the Stevens, but one of the most useful things I got out of class was learning the limitations of my equipment. I would say, take the Stevens, run it, and write a review to let us know how it did.

Superset: I ran federal full power 00 buck, Remington sluggers, and federal #8 bird. But I saw others running winchester bird, and federal #6 bird...all still had problems....

G-forceJunkie
05-29-2012, 12:28 PM
What birdshot were people running? The cheap bulkpacks from lets say Wallmart are notorious for sticking shells in the chamber.

CK_32
05-29-2012, 12:50 PM
I bet your using Winchester x shot or what ever. I've been read that happens a lot with that ammo and 870s.

SuperSet
05-29-2012, 12:52 PM
Ok, the previous link and this link below show issues with Rem 870 users. It affects more than a few, based on what I've seen from 870s. Sorry that you're having issues.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=148359

CK_32
05-29-2012, 1:02 PM
Ok, the previous link and this link below show issues with Rem 870 users. It affects more than a few, based on what I've seen from 870s. Sorry that you're having issues.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=148359

Seems like it all resolved around the cheap bulk walmart ammo. Even after guys polish they run into problems with their cheap ammo. Guys who say they went to reloads or better quality stuff seem to not run into those issues after switching.

SuperSet
05-29-2012, 1:06 PM
Yep, that seems to be a common link although I still think it's a Remington QC problem. A HD shotgun that can't run bulk WalMart ammo has suspect reliability to me. Can you imagine if your pistol couldn't run bulk Federal or Winchester 9mm?

CK_32
05-29-2012, 1:23 PM
Yep, that seems to be a common link although I still think it's a Remington QC problem. A HD shotgun that can't run bulk WalMart ammo has suspect reliability to me. Can you imagine if your pistol couldn't run bulk Federal or Winchester 9mm?

That is true. But at the same time we should look at the bulk ammo companies just as much I'd not more. Making ammo that won't shoot is even worse than a gun that can't shoot cheap ammo. I feel us guys blame guns too much and should start holding ammo companies to a higher standard as well.

BigDogatPlay
05-29-2012, 1:33 PM
I know that aippi has posted before that his sternest test of functionality and reliability on the guns he builds is that they run 100% with Winchester Universal shells.

:D

Polishing the chamber with the aippi method helps resolve most all problems in pump guns, at least from my own using it. The lacquer coating on the base of the Winchester "mil-spec" buck shot seems to have issues of it's own for some guns.

SuperSet
05-29-2012, 1:40 PM
I run a Remington VersaMax that runs Federal and Winchester bulk ammo packs, without issue. The same can be said about my FN SLP. Neither has problems with FTE, although I had to add some polish on the inside of the chamber after I welded the lifter (to keep from cutting my thumbs). So, Remington can make shotguns that run bulk ammo OOTB. I don't think the 870 is one of them.

mtptwo
05-29-2012, 1:42 PM
I have a 20ga 870 and it runs like a champ unless I use shells that are smooth on the surface. Failure to extract. The gun locks up, and I have to use brute force to rack the gun. The ones with ribbing on the plastic surface don't seem to have that issue.

I'm thinking Remingtons just run with a tight chamber.

Chief2Guns
05-29-2012, 2:35 PM
Winchester and Federal bulk ammo is all I run through my Benelli. No problems here.

Rcjackrabbit
05-29-2012, 3:52 PM
I have 4 870s. I have done the Aippi buffing on all of them.

The problem is that the base metal on the cheap Walmart shells is not brass. It expands getting stuck in the chamber. That is why you see more problems on the rolling thunder drill.

Try some high brass shells after you polish your chamber. I will be this solves the problem.

Once you get them working, 870s are great guns.

... and yes, Remington should make their guns in a way that allows them to work with commonly available ammo. My Benelli eats Winchester and Federal Walmart ammo like candy.

CK_32
05-29-2012, 4:52 PM
Good first post^^

Mesa Tactical
05-30-2012, 8:56 AM
2) At 25 yards, slugs are surprisingly accurate.

Try shooting them at 100 yards. You will be more surprised still.

In Scotty Rietz' combat shotgun courses (ITTS) he has you shooting man-sized targets at 100 yards.

MossbergMan
05-30-2012, 9:06 AM
Great AAR. I have a question: When you got your thumb stuck in the SPX and shell stop failures, were you loading from the shoulder (muzzle down approx.45 degrees) or under arm?
I haven't experienced this problem, but I know that Benellis "bite" as do some other SGs and some deburring of the loading port may be in order for your SPX (just break the sharp edges).
Unless you have a defective shell stop, generally "shell jumping" is a result of not fully inserting the shell (it can be ammo related too). If you've been getting your thumb stuck, it's likely that you were sub-consciencely, in an attempt to not get stuck, not fully inserting the shell. But without being there it's hard to say.
Keep us posted, and again great AAR report.

aippi
05-30-2012, 11:34 AM
I know that aippi has posted before that his sternest test of functionality and reliability on the guns he builds is that they run 100% with Winchester Universal shells.

:D

Polishing the chamber with the aippi method helps resolve most all problems in pump guns, at least from my own using it. The lacquer coating on the base of the Winchester "mil-spec" buck shot seems to have issues of it's own for some guns.

yes, however, these people are shooting a lot of ammo and even the so called better quality stuff seems to have a cheaper powder these days. I guess they are cutting cost to keep prices down. I function test my builds with the cheapest ammo to ensure extraction but that is only a couple of tubes. If I were to keep shooting this mess I would begin to have the same issue unless I clean the chamber.


If you taking some Delta Farce Elite Ninja Commando Tactical Training couirse and are comparing shooting those hundreds of rounds to what you are going to do in an HD so SD situation you are not understanding some things.

If you will clean the chambers of these shotguns between courses of fire then your issues end. Don't care what shotgun or ammo after so many round chambers foul and the cheap metal on the bases of todays shells swell far more then the old quality ammo when fired and contribute to the issue. Stop blaming the weapons as they are the same today as in years past.

SuperSet
05-30-2012, 11:40 AM
I think calling for cleaning your shotgun between courses of fire is not practical or realistic. And as mentioned, there are shotguns that run through boxes and boxes of crap WalMart ammo without cleaning.
If this were my shotgun, I'd take out my dremel and start shooting through that crap ammo and seeing where it binds. Wherever you see it bind, dremel and polish it. Rinse and repeat until it runs clean.
Or get another shotgun that'll run it.

aippi
05-30-2012, 12:23 PM
What is it about cleaning the chamber bothers you? These tactical course are what is not realistic as you are never going to shoot that many rounds in a fight, never. As for these guns that run through boxes of this cheap ammo without cleaning, I won't even ask because as with most of this mess on the internet is can not be proven. And if there are such guns they are most likely doubles or singles as these tend to have more open chambers since extraction is from a small spring loaded device.

As for cleaning between courses of fire, well I took a little training course over 40 years ago at a little resort on an Island in South Carolina. We fired 100 yards and 200 yards then before the 300 and 500 we cleaned our weapons. But what do those PMI's who made us do this know, they only do this for a living.

As for "seeing where it binds in the chamber, you can't. If you do have a weapon that is having issues after only a few rounds of good quality ammo, then yes, you could need the chamber lightly honed. But to tell guys to just start grinding away inside the chamber of their weapon is wrong headed. But then again this is internet where advice to Bubba up weapons runs free.

To check your chamber before you take Supersets advice and start grinding away, do this. Take the barrel off and polish the chamber well. Hold the barrel chamber up and put an unfired round in it. Turn the barrel over and the round should fall out. If it does not then very lightly tap the barrel with your hand and it should fall out. If it does not then you need a very light honing with a chamber ball hone.

FamilyofShooters
05-30-2012, 12:23 PM
My son in law's 870 Tactical is at our local gun shop as we speak because of the same problem. Finally the ejector spring broke. Now he's got BIG problems.

Ricky-Ray
05-30-2012, 12:53 PM
Great AAR report. I've taken the shotgun course with Civilian Arms several times and I use an 870. I've had a few FTE's during the course but what I've notice is it wasn't the operator it was the ammo. I've had FTE's from Winchester bulk packs from Walmart and also from Independence. The rims are a hair shorter so the extractor has a bit of a harder time grabbing the shell.

All of the slug and 00 buck ammo I've used for the course I never had any issues, it was only with the birdshot that I've run into FTE's with those two brands so far.

I've had 0 issues with the Federal bulk stuff from Walmart. What ammo I have left that's the Winchester and Independence stuff I will use that on the range for practice, but when I'm taking the class I'll be bringing the Federal stuff from Walmart.

As far as reliability goes in a HD situation I would not have an issue relying on my 870 as it would be loaded with 00 buck.

SuperSet
05-30-2012, 1:37 PM
What is it about cleaning the chamber bothers you? These tactical course are what is not realistic as you are never going to shoot that many rounds in a fight, never. As for these guns that run through boxes of this cheap ammo without cleaning, I won't even ask because as with most of this mess on the internet is can not be proven. And if there are such guns they are most likely doubles or singles as these tend to have more open chambers since extraction is from a small spring loaded device.

As for cleaning between courses of fire, well I took a little training course over 40 years ago at a little resort on an Island in South Carolina. We fired 100 yards and 200 yards then before the 300 and 500 we cleaned our weapons. But what do those PMI's who made us do this know, they only do this for a living.

As for "seeing where it binds in the chamber, you can't. If you do have a weapon that is having issues after only a few rounds of good quality ammo, then yes, you could need the chamber lightly honed. But to tell guys to just start grinding away inside the chamber of their weapon is wrong headed. But then again this is internet where advice to Bubba up weapons runs free.

To check your chamber before you take Supersets advice and start grinding away, do this. Take the barrel off and polish the chamber well. Hold the barrel chamber up and put an unfired round in it. Turn the barrel over and the round should fall out. If it does not then very lightly tap the barrel with your hand and it should fall out. If it does not then you need a very light honing with a chamber ball hone.

I suggest you look up 3-gun as those guys are running semi-autos and a small number of pumps where 30-40 rounds are fired within 60s. You cannot afford to have a malfunction and no one is cleaning their gun between stages.

APNF128
05-30-2012, 2:30 PM
I have attended a few Tactical shotgun courses myself, and everytime there will always be FTE on any pump not just Remington 870 but other brand too. It only becomes dominant on 870 simply because majority of student who will attend the class will be using 870. The culprit 99.9% is not the shotgun but it's the operator. In a tactical class were adrenalin and fatigue is high, after hours of running, gunning students in an attempt to shoot follow up shot faster un-knowingly tend to SHORT STROKE the pump and the result FTE. Pump shotgun is a simple mechanical action and for as long as you do the correct movement it will always work.

p1choco
05-30-2012, 3:06 PM
As for cleaning between courses of fire, well I took a little training course over 40 years ago at a little resort on an Island in South Carolina. We fired 100 yards and 200 yards then before the 300 and 500 we cleaned our weapons. But what do those PMI's who made us do this know, they only do this for a living.

I took that training class too. They don't do it that way anymore. Times have changed. Training has improved. This includes the many other classes specializing in other weapons. Shotguns included.

Barry
05-30-2012, 7:16 PM
My HD 870 express would jam up tight every time I shot "high brass" shells.
I would be barely able to pull the forarm rearwards and if I did the extractor would tear the brass rim off the round. Turns out there was a burr in the chamber and the high brass shells would fire form to the burr getting stuck.
Low brass was never an issue, it missed the burr.

Had the burr removed and never a FTE again.

I'd still reach for my 870 before my semi, less to go wrong. But I'd inspect/polish out the chamber before trusting another Express.

Barry

p1choco
05-30-2012, 8:18 PM
My HD 870 express would jam up tight every time I shot "high brass" shells.
I would be barely able to pull the forarm rearwards and if I did the extractor would tear the brass rim off the round. Turns out there was a burr in the chamber and the high brass shells would fire form to the burr getting stuck.
Low brass was never an issue, it missed the burr.

Had the burr removed and never a FTE again.

I'd still reach for my 870 before my semi, less to go wrong. But I'd inspect/polish out the chamber before trusting another Express.

Barry

Did it come like that from the factory, or was the burr operator induced? Did Remington fix it for you?

Barry
05-30-2012, 9:45 PM
The burr was a free optional extra installed by Remington.
The store owner where I purchased it (Canyon Sports) diagnosed and fixed the problem. Took less than an hour including test firing in the range there.

Barry

MossbergMan
05-31-2012, 8:53 AM
I clean the chambers of my PPC revolver between stages...does that count?

webster-dl
06-02-2012, 2:03 PM
Hi Aippi! It's good to have your input...hopefully you know that you are considered one of the online authorities when it comes to the 870.

Some thoughts:

The 870 needs its chamber polished to ensure reliability -- these failure to extract/failure to eject problems are likely related to a rough chamber. Online sources have mentioned that when the chamber is polished, these FTE problems seem to improve. Remington also mentions that the 870P (which seems to not have these problems) is polished with more care. Even on AIPtactical's site, note is made that:

"Issues with extraction problems with the 870 HD barrels are all over the internet. If you purchased one from me you should not have this issue as I polish the chamber, however, if you are using cheap ammo, you may." (aiptactical.com/page_2.html)

Excellent instructions for polishing the chamber are on the Internet Reference For 870's...also known as AIPtactical.com

http://www.aiptactical.com/Page_2.html

I think SuperSet's advice was intended to be identical to AIPPI's advice to machine-polish the chamber, as per: http://www.aiptactical.com/Page_2.html. I don't think there is disagreement there.

CK_32
06-02-2012, 3:53 PM
Anyone have a video on how to polish these chambers?

Might do it to the 870 I'm looking to pick up tonight just for the hell of it. But I'm going to shoot a ton of his cheap Walmart bulk to get these jams to see what it's abor for t self. Just bought a box of Winchester x buck and abox of 100 for $23 this morning. Well see how it does when I get her out to the range.

USMC 82-86
06-02-2012, 4:18 PM
What is it about cleaning the chamber bothers you? These tactical course are what is not realistic as you are never going to shoot that many rounds in a fight, never. As for these guns that run through boxes of this cheap ammo without cleaning, I won't even ask because as with most of this mess on the internet is can not be proven. And if there are such guns they are most likely doubles or singles as these tend to have more open chambers since extraction is from a small spring loaded device.

As for cleaning between courses of fire, well I took a little training course over 40 years ago at a little resort on an Island in South Carolina. We fired 100 yards and 200 yards then before the 300 and 500 we cleaned our weapons. But what do those PMI's who made us do this know, they only do this for a living.

As for "seeing where it binds in the chamber, you can't. If you do have a weapon that is having issues after only a few rounds of good quality ammo, then yes, you could need the chamber lightly honed. But to tell guys to just start grinding away inside the chamber of their weapon is wrong headed. But then again this is internet where advice to Bubba up weapons runs free.

To check your chamber before you take Supersets advice and start grinding away, do this. Take the barrel off and polish the chamber well. Hold the barrel chamber up and put an unfired round in it. Turn the barrel over and the round should fall out. If it does not then very lightly tap the barrel with your hand and it should fall out. If it does not then you need a very light honing with a chamber ball hone.


I am familiar with this Island you speak of in South Carolina.

I think this is a hard pill to swallow if you own a 870 they are supposed to be the glock of the shotgun world. The ammo has got to be the problem. Wait I don't think even bad ammo will cause a Glock to malfunction. I have had Remington shotguns and still have the 1100 well my oldest son has it now. They are good guns but you can still have problems with any gun.

I have the Mossberg 590 A1 and have had that problem twice and both times were shortly after getting the gun. I have put about 350 rounds through her since then with no problems.

SuperSet
06-02-2012, 4:21 PM
CK - there's a youtube video called 'How To Polish 870 Chamber' so it should be pretty close to what youre asking. :) Id link but cant do it on my mobile.

aippi
06-02-2012, 6:26 PM
USMC - I don't have any issues with the 870 and extraction even when I use cheap ammo. I handle hundreds of barrels an seldom find one with an issue. I have had to use a ball hone on less then a dozen over the years. These are the ones that failed my chamber test.

Reading this stuff on these blogs makes people think this is a big issue. There are tens of thousands of these shotgun sold every year and only a hand full of guys on these blogs who have problems and that is what people post most about, a problem.

What I have seen the most probmatic is ammo. It is getting worse and worse every year. They kicked up production so much in 2008 when that idiot was elected and ammo was hard to get and I don't think they give a crap about quality any longer as they got away with making all that mess a couple years ago and just kept on doing it.

And yes, there are QC issues with most all manufacturers these days. Much of this is the fact that their employees don't care like the old school did. Remington is a Union Shop and a guy can mess up and nothing happen. If he does not kill a Supervisor you can't even fire him. Get some pride back in what we do and our products will show it.

You guys buy a few guns and parts. I bought over $65,000 in Remington parts and barrels alone last year and in 2009 it was was over $80,000 thanks to Barrack. I can fill five pages of this blog with QC issues I see. And I bet it is the same with any manufacturer out there these days.

dooodstevenn
06-03-2012, 1:32 AM
I've had the same jamming issue with my 870, im hoping it's just something that will go away as i break it in. What i found was the more i pulled back the worse it got, i finally figured out to push forward on the slide (i guess to move something back that was getting jammed on the shell's plastic) and rack it back hard. Yet again, this was using some random target load the range require us to use. Also winchester target load i hear is a no go in the 870

Rockit
06-03-2012, 2:57 AM
the more i pulled back the worse it got, i finally figured out to push forward on the slide
I developed that same issue when I installed a Enidine stock. Very intermittent in about 100 rounds of mixed 00 and slugs.