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View Full Version : Changes to SA TRP = Not on roster anymore?


MT1
05-28-2012, 11:08 PM
Can we get some clarification about what is going on in this thread...

EBR is stating that the PC9108L TRP non-railed pistol that has been on the roster forever is now not on the roster due to some "grip change", as of this afternoon it is still listed on the roster on the DOJ site.

Since EBR isn't coughing up any information, what gives?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=8660958&posted=1#post8660958

EBR Works
05-29-2012, 12:24 AM
I did "cough up" the details in the thread. Any more questions?

Snoopy47
05-29-2012, 12:28 AM
PC9108L is still on the roster till 3/29/2013, just go to the DOJ site and look it up.

EBR Works
05-29-2012, 12:30 AM
PC9108L is still on the roster till 3/29/2013, just go to the DOJ site and look it up.

Did you bother to look at the details I posted in my FS thread?



This is the exact description from our supplier's listing of this model:

SPH 45 TRP SRVC 5" W/NOVAK NO LONGER OK FOR CA:GRIP CHANGE

..and these are the labels on the case:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/impactco/0cbed4d1.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/impactco/0a342d04.jpg

wamphyri13
05-29-2012, 10:03 AM
I don't care what NOT LEGAL IN CALIFORNIA sticker is on the box. The model number is on the box and matches what is on the approved list. CADOJ can't make it off-roster because of grips, and when the PARA SSP was introduced, I got one with the not legal sticker on the box when it was, in fact, legal. No problems.
Ryan

21SF
05-29-2012, 10:10 AM
I don't care what NOT LEGAL IN CALIFORNIA sticker is on the box. The model number is on the box and matches what is on the approved list. CADOJ can't make it off-roster because of grips, and when the PARA SSP was introduced, I got one with the not legal sticker on the box when it was, in fact, legal. No problems.
Ryan

Pretty much this, as long as they dont change the model number to reflect the change in grips. it should be gtg.

Striker
05-29-2012, 10:27 AM
I don't care what NOT LEGAL IN CALIFORNIA sticker is on the box. The model number is on the box and matches what is on the approved list. CADOJ can't make it off-roster because of grips, and when the PARA SSP was introduced, I got one with the not legal sticker on the box when it was, in fact, legal. No problems.
Ryan

You might be right, but if you can't find a seller that agrees with you; it's irrelevant. Apparently neither Springfield nor EBR are willing to take the chance. If no one will sell you one, it doesn't matter whether or not you're technically correct. And do I remember incorrectly or did the TRP half rail fall of the roster for a similar reason?

jdogg2000
05-29-2012, 10:37 AM
Look at the same pistol at Island View Enterprises. They also state it is off roster, but SSE available. EBR is not requiring an SSE to price gouge, but to protect his business from the evil DOJ.

EBR Works
05-29-2012, 10:55 AM
I don't care what NOT LEGAL IN CALIFORNIA sticker is on the box. The model number is on the box and matches what is on the approved list. CADOJ can't make it off-roster because of grips, and when the PARA SSP was introduced, I got one with the not legal sticker on the box when it was, in fact, legal. No problems.
Ryan

Wanting something to be the way you personally want it does not necessarily make it so.

DOJ can take it off the roster for any changes to the gun including grips.

Feel free to call them and ask.


Look at the same pistol at Island View Enterprises. They also state it is off roster, but SSE available. EBR is not requiring an SSE to price gouge, but to protect his business from the evil DOJ.

Exactly.

chunker
05-29-2012, 12:14 PM
The CA DOJ will take two guns that are exactly the same expect one is a different color and declare one unsafe while the other one is safe. So a change in grips and an extra letter to the model number will likely make the gun unsafe in the eyes of the CA DOJ. Now does that make sense? Nope...but then again we're talking about the CA DOJ.

Snoopy47
05-29-2012, 1:07 PM
Did you bother to look at the details I posted in my FS thread?

I go by what the DOJ site says, not an internet forum.

PC9108L is still on the roster till 3/29/2013, just go to the DOJ site and look it up.

So one merely needs to find a shop that will sell it as PC9108L not PC9108L"P"

It's just checks and boxes on a form. The model isn't stamped on the gun.

21SF
05-29-2012, 1:09 PM
Actually the "p" is just for package. Holster, mag pouch, etc.

Snoopy47
05-29-2012, 1:15 PM
Well, I guess Springfield stopped selling ALL 1911s in CA, because now all the model numbers end in "P".

So yep, thats it. no more 1911's from Springfield will be coming into CA.

Press Check
05-29-2012, 1:19 PM
I had the same problem when I purchased a PI9134LP, but was able to DROS the pistol in CA without SSE even though PI9134L is what's listed on the DOJ Roster.

Press Check
05-29-2012, 1:22 PM
On a side note, my box didn't have that sticker on it, barring it from sale in California, which is why I believe this particular issue with the PC9108LP exists.

woods
05-29-2012, 2:40 PM
Just don't beat up on our dealers they are trying to cover their own ***, blame the doj and people like yee. Have you seen how easy it is to get an innocent man in to jail these days?

Laws that don't make sense and are vague are illegal but they are still enforced. Laws that violate regular trade and our rights are illegal but they are enforced. Not everyone has a billion dollars for legal battles and likes jail enough to want to dance near the landmine in the sand.

Some dealers will do a sse for free or cheap with buyback. Find one and then keep fighting for our rights.

IBJanky
05-29-2012, 2:44 PM
Well, I guess Springfield stopped selling ALL 1911s in CA, because now all the model numbers end in "P".

So yep, thats it. no more 1911's from Springfield will be coming into CA.

If this is true, then it sucks for all Californians

myke

21SF
05-29-2012, 2:46 PM
Someone should tell SFA to stop shooting themselves in the foot with these grip changes.

21SF
05-29-2012, 2:47 PM
If this is true, then it sucks for all Californians

myke

The P just stands for package!!! should not make a difference.

Snoopy47
05-29-2012, 2:52 PM
Someone should tell SFA to stop shooting themselves in the foot with these grip changes.

It’s not the grip changes. It’s the model designation change.

Springfield could take an entirely different gun and swap it with an approved model number, and the DOJ wouldn’t be the wiser. They are all simply digits on a form.

Until Springfield can’t sell all their production without CA then I don’t see a business decision to bend over backwards for us.

Striker
05-29-2012, 3:29 PM
Some of you are taking this out on the dealer. How is it his fault? He's just trying to protect his business and livelihood by following the law. Springfield made the changes to the gun and model number. It's their business to understand the firearms laws everywhere they sell, so since they have the "not legal in California" sticker on the case, I assume they knew what they were doing. Call and complain to them. And vote with your dollar, buy Kimber or Colt, Les Baer, Wilson Combat etc. Instead of XDs or XDMs, but Glocks or M&Ps or Sigs or HKs etc.

You think the law is unfair, campaign for pro gun state politicians, if they even exist in this state anymore. You think the law is vague and illegal, challenge the constitutionality of the law in court. Will you win? I don't know, but why challenge the dealer? He didn't make the rules.

My point is that EBR or any dealer for that matter isn't making the rules or making changes to the guns or model numbers. They're not doing anything other than trying to run a business in a state that is making it progressively more difficult to do so. And actually, EBR is one the dealers doing SSE. Meaning trying to help the cause here in California. The other alternative is these guns will no longer be available in this state for the foreseeable future. You have a problem, take it to the source or sources of the problem, don't blame the messenger.

EBR Works
05-29-2012, 3:35 PM
Some of you are taking this out on the dealer. How is it his fault? He's just trying to protect his business and livelihood by following the law. Springfield made the changes to the gun and model number. It's their business to understand the firearms laws everywhere they sell, so since they have the "not legal in California" sticker on the case, I assume they knew what they were doing. Call and complain to them. And vote with your dollar, buy Kimber or Colt, Les Baer, Wilson Combat etc. Instead of XDs or XDMs, but Glocks or M&Ps or Sigs or HKs etc.

You think the law is unfair, campaign for pro gun state politicians, if they even exist in this state anymore. You think the law is vague and illegal, challenge the constitutionality of the law in court. Will you win? I don't know, but why challenge the dealer? He didn't make the rules.

My point is that EBR or any dealer for that matter isn't making the rules or making changes to the guns or model numbers. They're not doing anything other than trying to run a business in a state that is making it progressively more difficult to do so. And actually, EBR is one the dealers doing SSE. Meaning trying to help the cause here in California. The other alternative is these guns will no longer be available in this state for the foreseeable future. You have a problem, take it to the source or sources of the problem, don't blame the messenger.

Thank you!

wamphyri13
05-29-2012, 4:01 PM
I don't care what NOT LEGAL IN CALIFORNIA sticker is on the box. The model number is on the box and matches what is on the approved list. CADOJ can't make it off-roster because of grips, and when the PARA SSP was introduced, I got one with the not legal sticker on the box when it was, in fact, legal. No problems.
Ryan

I want to clarify my statement because I made it first thing this morning before heading to work.
I am in no way berating EBR for his/their position on this. They have more to worry about than we do. They are following the rules laid down to them. So as far as what I wrote this morning, it's directed more toward the CADOJ then the retailer. After all, they don't put the stickers on the box.
That being said, I understand EBR's position, but as the retail customer and end user, since the model number on the box matches the model number listed on the CADOJ website AT THIS MOMENT, I feel that I am allowed to purchase the pistol as according to fearless leader, it's approved.

To EBR: I apologize if you felt I was critiquing you unjustly. Wasn't meant to sound that way. Keep up the good work.
Ryan

asm777
05-29-2012, 4:47 PM
I don't think the issue here is whether the "P" makes the model number different as some seem to believe.

The issue here is that SA changed the hardware of the TRP so that it's not the same gun that was submitted for approval to the roster even though they kept the same model #.

A more extreme example would be if SA decided to keep the model # of the TRP but make it with a 6" barrel, would it still be on the roster?

Wasn't able to find anything that says that a gun falls off the roster if the manufacturer changes something minor... not too long ago, Colt changed the grip safety from the old "duckbill" to the newer "upswept beavertail" on some of its roster-approved models and Turner's had told me that it might cause some problems with the roster. Then again, I've seen the newer models (with the upgraded parts) in the display cases occasionally.

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs
What are the handgun safety testing requirements?

The DOJ certifies laboratories to test handguns. No handgun may be sold, manufactured, etc., in California unless it has been safety tested by a DOJ-certified laboratory, found to have passed safety/reliability standards, and approved for sale by the DOJ. Firearm manufacturers and importers, who wish to certify a handgun model for sale or manufacture within California must submit three copies of the handgun model directly to a DOJ-certified laboratory for testing.

Upon approval of the test report and payment of listing fees, the handgun is listed on the DOJ Roster of Certified Handguns (RCH). The roster lists qualifying handguns according to: make / model / caliber / barrel length. A change in any one of the RCH categories is considered a new modeland requires a new certification.

Effective January 1, 2001, only handgun models listed on the RCH may be manufactured, imported for sale, or sold in California. Exemptions exist for private party and law enforcement transactions.

A listing of certified handgun models is currently available on this website. Listings are also available upon request by fax, and will periodically be sent as administrative messages to operators of Point of Sale Devices.

(PC section 12125, et seq.)

SA already has some guns that are exactly the same except for the grips with different model numbers so one might argue that grips DO make a different gun:

PI9209L - 9mm EMP with wood grips (roster-approved)
PI9210L - 9mm EMP with G10 grips (NOT APPROVED)


Anyway, if SA has determined that the updated TRP with new grips is a different gun than the same model # TRP (which IS on the roster), I think we can only keep lamenting that we live in a state with stupid gun laws, keep supporting our FFLs that have to deal with these issues, and hope that the roster (and all the other dumb laws) will be made obsolete in:twoweeks:

redcliff
05-29-2012, 5:11 PM
It appears that Springfield Armory could get the TRP (and EMP) with the new grips on the Roster by certifying that the new models differ only in "minor attributes".

From Librarian's excellent stickied post on the California Safe Handgun Roster http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=81127:

"Why is the ‘blue’ one on the Roster, and the ‘stainless’ one not?
Manufacturer’s choice. Every model sold by FFLs in California must be on the Roster and paid for, every year.

A manufacturer can save testing fees by certifying that one gun is different from another only in ‘minor’ attributes
Quote:
12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating, oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.

but even those models must be added to the Roster."

MT1
05-29-2012, 5:40 PM
Some of you are taking this out on the dealer. How is it his fault? He's just trying to protect his business and livelihood by following the law. Springfield made the changes to the gun and model number. It's their business to understand the firearms laws everywhere they sell, so since they have the "not legal in California" sticker on the case, I assume they knew what they were doing. Call and complain to them. And vote with your dollar, buy Kimber or Colt, Les Baer, Wilson Combat etc. Instead of XDs or XDMs, but Glocks or M&Ps or Sigs or HKs etc.

You think the law is unfair, campaign for pro gun state politicians, if they even exist in this state anymore. You think the law is vague and illegal, challenge the constitutionality of the law in court. Will you win? I don't know, but why challenge the dealer? He didn't make the rules.

My point is that EBR or any dealer for that matter isn't making the rules or making changes to the guns or model numbers. They're not doing anything other than trying to run a business in a state that is making it progressively more difficult to do so. And actually, EBR is one the dealers doing SSE. Meaning trying to help the cause here in California. The other alternative is these guns will no longer be available in this state for the foreseeable future. You have a problem, take it to the source or sources of the problem, don't blame the messenger.

I am in no way trying to take this out on EBR/the dealer, I am just looking for more concrete information than what was initially said - "it's not on the roster, take our word for it". When I see the model number being discussed listed on the official DOJ site as being CA compliant, but the dealer is telling me that it's actually not I would think it's in all of our best interests to have full disclosure as to why this is being said, which is what happened after I posted this thread in the explanation that EBR was told this information by their distributor, and here's a picture of the box. EBR doing SSE sales is great, I appreciate that service being offered and I in no way implied that they were price gouging.

So can we get a picture of this gun and a specific description of what makes it different from the previous version which is still listed on the DOJ site?

MaxMoto
05-29-2012, 6:20 PM
....

MT1
05-29-2012, 7:16 PM
wow


wow what? :rolleyes:

MaxMoto
05-29-2012, 7:19 PM
....

keenkeen
05-29-2012, 7:29 PM
Some of you are taking this out on the dealer. How is it his fault? He's just trying to protect his business and livelihood by following the law. Springfield made the changes to the gun and model number. It's their business to understand the firearms laws everywhere they sell, so since they have the "not legal in California" sticker on the case, I assume they knew what they were doing. Call and complain to them. And vote with your dollar, buy Kimber or Colt, Les Baer, Wilson Combat etc. Instead of XDs or XDMs, but Glocks or M&Ps or Sigs or HKs etc.

...


You would think bolded statement would be true but unfortunately it is not in my experience.

A while back SA was telling people that all "P" or package models where now off roster and stickering those as cases with the "Not legal for California".

A call to the DOJ confirmed that the "P" models where in fact still covered under the base models roster status, but that is not what SA was telling people or acting under.

This may be different as they did change the grip but I would not rely on SA for CA Roster advice.

SoulStealer
05-29-2012, 7:33 PM
I am in no way trying to take this out on EBR/the dealer, I am just looking for more concrete information than what was initially said - "it's not on the roster, take our word for it". When I see the model number being discussed listed on the official DOJ site as being CA compliant, but the dealer is telling me that it's actually not I would think it's in all of our best interests to have full disclosure as to why this is being said, which is what happened after I posted this thread in the explanation that EBR was told this information by their distributor, and here's a picture of the box. EBR doing SSE sales is great, I appreciate that service being offered and I in no way implied that they were price gouging.

So can we get a picture of this gun and a specific description of what makes it different from the previous version which is still listed on the DOJ site?

What makes it different is the different grips! You have been told this repeatedly and do not want to understand. The wood grips are fine and the G-10 grips are not fine. Move On!!

Oh, did you check his price?? Even with SSE it is still a better deal than anything you can find right now.

CWM4A1
05-29-2012, 7:39 PM
Here's the deal. For the "CA Legal" version of TRP, SA will ship the gun with the wood grip installed as CA roster compliant and include the G10 material grip (VZ?) in a zip-lock bag for you to change it yourself.

For those TRP that only come with the G10 grip, they are unfortunately not CA legal. On-Target just received two TRP and that's the way they come in; and both are gone in a day, go figure...

MT1
05-29-2012, 7:52 PM
wow you just don't get it

What makes it different is the different grips! You have been told this repeatedly and do not want to understand. The wood grips are fine and the G-10 grips are not fine. Move On!!

Oh, did you check his price?? Even with SSE it is still a better deal than anything you can find right now.


Way to be ignorant morons. :thumbsup:

The G10 grips have come on these guns for a couple years at least(made by Larry Davidson I believe)...I happen to own one with the G10 grips (PC9108LP), the same exact part number that is being discussed here, and exactly the same as is in the picture provided. Now if there are now WOOD grips instead of G10, that could be understandable, but it would deviate from the picture provided.

Again buddy, this has absolutely nothing to do with price or EBR, pretend that it's another seller.

SoulStealer
05-29-2012, 8:01 PM
Way to be ignorant morons. :thumbsup:

The G10 grips have come on these guns for a couple years at least(made by Larry Davidson I believe)...I happen to own one with the G10 grips (PC9108LP), the same exact part number that is being discussed here, and exactly the same as is in the picture provided. Now if there are now WOOD grips instead of G10, that could be understandable, but it would deviate from the picture provided.

Again buddy, this has absolutely nothing to do with price or EBR, pretend that it's another seller.

And now he resorts to name calling!! Again, sorry you do not understand that the grips have changed. Read the previous threads. Do not go by a picture, Really.
This is what you a basing your discussion on a picture. Have you even bothered to call EBR like he asked you to if you had questions?? You need to find something better to do than harass dealers on this forum!! Here let me draw you a picture, wood are good and G-10 now are a no-no.:nuts:

CWM4A1
05-29-2012, 8:11 PM
And you still don't get it.

Just like DOJ figure out the Glock 21SF with ambidextrous mag release and put a plug to it, they sure can do the same for the simple sake of grip change. Just because you were able to get one before does not mean DOJ won't screw with the manufacture and make everyone's life miserable. To make the matter worse, since they are technically the same gun so SA does not distinguish the p/n between the two. Instead of creating another p/n for rest of USA, SA simply decided to add a "Not CA legal" sticker to the box so dealers won't drop the ball.

No FFL holder will risk losing their license over selling a gun. It's that simple. CA legal PC9108L will come with wood grip installed and a set G10 grip in separate package for customer to install themselves; non-CA legal PC9108L comes with G10 grip installed and will require SSE exemption.

SoulStealer
05-29-2012, 8:14 PM
And you still don't get it.

Just like DOJ figure out the Glock 21SF with ambidextrous mag release and put a plug to it, they sure can do the same for the simple sake of grip change. Just because you were able to get one before does not mean DOJ won't screw with the manufacture and make everyone's life miserable. To make the matter worse, since they are technically the same gun so SA does not distinguish the p/n between the two. Instead of creating another p/n for rest of USA, SA simply decided to add a "Not CA legal" sticker to the box so dealers won't drop the ball.

No FFL holder will risk losing their license over selling a gun. It's that simple. CA legal PC9108L will come with wood grip installed and a set G10 grip in separate package for customer to install themselves; non-CA legal PC9108L comes with G10 grip installed and will require SSE exemption.
This exactly.

And we are the morons!! :p :p :p

MT1
05-29-2012, 8:21 PM
And now he resorts to name calling!! Again, sorry you do not understand that the grips have changed. Read the previous threads. Do not go by a picture, Really.
This is what you a basing your discussion on a picture. Have you even bothered to call EBR like he asked you to if you had questions?? You need to find something better to do than harass dealers on this forum!! Here let me draw you a picture, wood are good and G-10 now are a no-no.:nuts:



And you still don't get it.

Just like DOJ figure out the Glock 21SF with ambidextrous mag release and put a plug to it, they sure can do the same for the simple sake of grip change. Just because you were able to get one before does not mean DOJ won't screw with the manufacture and make everyone's life miserable. To make the matter worse, since they are technically the same gun so SA does not distinguish the p/n between the two. Instead of creating another p/n for rest of USA, SA simply decided to add a "Not CA legal" sticker to the box so dealers won't drop the ball.

No FFL holder will risk losing their license over selling a gun. It's that simple. CA legal PC9108L will come with wood grip installed and a set G10 grip in separate package for customer to install themselves; non-CA legal PC9108L comes with G10 grip installed and will require SSE exemption.


G-10 GRIPS HAVE BEEN ON THESE GUNS FOR YEARS!!!

I am not harassing EBR, forget that they have anything to do with this, this is not about them or any other dealer, this is about a gun which is currently listed on the roster, yet now has a sticker on the box saying no CA sales, and why SPECIFICALLY that is. You said "wood is ok, G10 is not", but that would mean there was a policy change by the DOJ, and NOT a grip change because the G10 grips have been on these pistols for years - I have one.

PLEASE get it out of your damn mind that I am harassing the dealer, I understand that they have a box in their possession which says they cannot sell in in CA, I just simply want clarification about why.

keenkeen
05-29-2012, 8:21 PM
No FFL holder will risk losing their license over selling a gun. It's that simple. CA legal PC9108L will come with wood grip installed and a set G10 grip in separate package for customer to install themselves; non-CA legal PC9108L comes with G10 grip installed and will require SSE exemption.

Plenty of FFLs will DROS a G10 grip PC9108L as a PC9108L...

Not saying EBR is not technically correct on this one, but to the average FFL a PC9108L is a PC9108L.

Start to talk about "CA legal PC9108L" and "non-CA legal PC9108L" to the typical FFL is this state and you will quickly end up in a rubber room.

SA is goofy as well, if they wanted they could just add the G10 version as redcliff has already pointed out above...that would make a lot more sense than having 2 versions with the same model number.

CWM4A1
05-29-2012, 8:30 PM
OP, Get this: When SA originally submit TRP for approval, it had a wood grip, not G10.

You probably miss my G21 SF ambi mag release analogy. DOJ can and will screw with you as they see fit. They can't make those who purchase the gun already to return their gun (unless it was Walther P22 type of SNAFU), but they sure can restrict what gets to be sold from that point on.

When DOJ is in-town to audit, and they find out dealer who sell TRP with a G10 grip installed, that's enough for them to put dealer on the grill. This is regardless of the model number that's on the roster.

To Keenkeen:

Frankly, those dealers better pray that should DOJ comes to visit them, that gun has already being picked-up and they don't have any inventory left...

SoulStealer
05-29-2012, 8:32 PM
G-10 GRIPS HAVE BEEN ON THESE GUNS FOR YEARS!!!

I am not harassing EBR, forget that they have anything to do with this, this is not about them or any other dealer, this is about a gun which is currently listed on the roster, yet now has a sticker on the box saying no CA sales, and why SPECIFICALLY that is. You said "wood is ok, G10 is not", but that would mean there was a policy change by the DOJ, and NOT a grip change because the G10 grips have been on these pistols for years - I have one.

PLEASE get it out of your damn mind that I am harassing the dealer, I understand that they have a box in their possession which says they cannot sell in in CA, I just simply want clarification about why.

You need to call the DOJ then, your obviously not content with the answers your getting on this forum.

When you find out, let us all know the reason why?? Look forward to reading your thread about this topic.

keenkeen
05-29-2012, 8:43 PM
To Keenkeen:

Frankly, those dealers better pray that should DOJ comes to visit them, that gun has already being picked-up and they don't have any inventory left...

Yeah...they had better pray. And so should the MANY ffls that have been selling the SIG mosquito in PINK for years as an "on roster" gun. And the many who are now selling the FDE mosquito the same way...

I am sure they are praying right now, because the DOJ will shut them right down for that...

;)

MT1
05-29-2012, 8:50 PM
OP, Get this: When SA originally submit TRP for approval, it had a wood grip, not G10.

You probably miss my G21 SF ambi mag release analogy. DOJ can and will screw with you as they see fit. They can't make those who purchase the gun already to return their gun (unless it was Walther P22 type of SNAFU), but they sure can restrict what gets to be sold from that point on.

When DOJ is in-town to audit, and they find out dealer who sell TRP with a G10 grip installed, that's enough for them to put dealer on the grill. This is regardless of the model number that's on the roster.


So you're saying that the TRP when submitted for approval years ago, it had wood grips, and yet they have been selling them in CA with the G10 grips for years and only now the DOJ has caught on and has dropped them?



You need to call the DOJ then, your obviously not content with the answers your getting on this forum.

When you find out, let us all know the reason why?? Look forward to reading your thread about this topic.

At the time you jumped in here, the only information posted was "grip change", and you were perfectly fine with accepting that, I want to know WHAT grip change and a source of this information. You may be perfectly fine with swallowing a vague answer, some of us are not and that is what was being discussed by the majority of people in this thread. You additionally said I was complaining about the price, even though I had just said in the previous post that this had NOTHING to do with the price, you just completely made that up out of thin air.

If someone doesn't have the answer to a question, you don't get antagonistic and just say "That's just the way it is.", you just simply say, "I don't know".

SoulStealer
05-29-2012, 9:05 PM
You need to call the DOJ then, your obviously not content with the answers your getting on this forum.

When you find out, let us all know the reason why?? Look forward to reading your thread about this topic.

You seem to not have an answer for this one. And have you called EBR?? And no, I did not say you were complaining!! I said, their price with SSE still beats a lot of competitors.

So once you call the DOJ let us all know. Look forward to hearing about this on your thread

SoulStealer
05-29-2012, 9:05 PM
...

kb58
05-29-2012, 9:38 PM
...To EBR: I apologize if you felt I was critiquing you unjustly...
I've seen this type of "apology" before and don't put up with it any more. It's clear that you still feel as if it's his fault because you're sorry that he feels a certain way. A true apology is where you say that you are sorry.

keenkeen
05-29-2012, 9:45 PM
I've seen this type of "apology" before and don't put up with it any more. It's clear that you still feel as if it's his fault because you're sorry that he feels a certain way. A true apology is where you say that you are sorry.

Wow...somebody has been making progress in their couples counseling sessions. Good for you man.

;)

thatsteveguy
05-29-2012, 9:48 PM
Actually the "p" is just for package. Holster, mag pouch, etc.

This is my understanding as well. When I purchased a SA 9mm 1911 it also had a "LP" ending in the model number designation. My FFL told me not to fret over it and we did the paperwork without any issues. He said the "P" was the identifier for a "packaged" handgun, he'd run into the issue in the past and had never had an issue with the CA DOJ.

SoulStealer
05-29-2012, 9:51 PM
:flowers:

CWM4A1
05-29-2012, 11:22 PM
So you're saying that the TRP when submitted for approval years ago, it had wood grips, and yet they have been selling them in CA with the G10 grips for years and only now the DOJ has caught on and has dropped them?

Hard to grasp, perhaps, but yes. PC9108L is still on the roster, but only the one sent from SA with wood grip qualify. Like I said, the CA legal package comes with wood grip installed and G10 grip set aside for you to install after you pick-up the gun, so you are not losing anything... except when it comes with G10 only, you are SOL.


If someone doesn't have the answer to a question, you don't get antagonistic and just say "That's just the way it is.", you just simply say, "I don't know".

Call DOJ and find out. If gun with G10 grip installed is still perfectly okay, SA would not bother to label the box "not CA legal" and have the CA legal package come with wood grip installed and G10 grip set aside. When everyone is doing their best to cost down to survive this economy, why would they bother to do something that would cost them more money unless law/agency required them to do so?

wamphyri13
05-29-2012, 11:24 PM
I've seen this type of "apology" before and don't put up with it any more. It's clear that you still feel as if it's his fault because you're sorry that he feels a certain way. A true apology is where you say that you are sorry.

Who are you to question my motives or intent? You don't know squat about me.
I have no dog in this fight. My statement was purely about the vaguery of my initial statement. I wrote it in a hurry before leaving for work. After rereading it and seeing how many times I was quoted, and EBR's response to it, I felt I needed to clarify. The written word is more often misconstrued than the spoken word.
So to keep this civil, I'll just say,
"Come down off your moral high-horse and join us little people in the conversation."
Also, "I am sooooooooo sorry. Will you accept my apology?" :rolleyes:
Ryan

SoulStealer
05-30-2012, 12:02 AM
Hard to grasp, perhaps, but yes. PC9108L is still on the roster, but only the one sent from SA with wood grip qualify. Like I said, the CA legal package comes with wood grip installed and G10 grip set aside for you to install after you pick-up the gun, so you are not losing anything... except when it comes with G10 only, you are SOL.



Call DOJ and find out. If gun with G10 grip installed is still perfectly okay, SA would not bother to label the box "not CA legal" and have the CA legal package come with wood grip installed and G10 grip set aside. When everyone is doing their best to cost down to survive this economy, why would they bother to do something that would cost them more money unless law/agency required them to do so?

I think I read this somewhere!! :rolleyes:

Striker
05-30-2012, 12:39 AM
I am in no way trying to take this out on EBR/the dealer, I am just looking for more concrete information than what was initially said - "it's not on the roster, take our word for it". When I see the model number being discussed listed on the official DOJ site as being CA compliant, but the dealer is telling me that it's actually not I would think it's in all of our best interests to have full disclosure as to why this is being said, which is what happened after I posted this thread in the explanation that EBR was told this information by their distributor, and here's a picture of the box. EBR doing SSE sales is great, I appreciate that service being offered and I in no way implied that they were price gouging.

So can we get a picture of this gun and a specific description of what makes it different from the previous version which is still listed on the DOJ site?

I didn't imply anything in my post about price one way or the other. What I said was that the dealer doesn't control anything. He's the seller to the end user. Your questions, if they're not being answered to your satisfaction, really need to go the CADOJ and Springfield. Because those places, one or both, is where you're going to get the information you want. And honestly, if I wanted information, I would go to the source with the best information and in this case that's CADOJ.

Knowing the reason is in your best interest, ok. Only you can decide that. In my best interest? Not really because I don't really want one and if I did, I would find a used one or drive down to EBR or call Table Rock or whomever and just SSE one in. The option is there to get one, which is what I care the most about. It just isn't as easy as an on roster gun.

skyscraper
05-30-2012, 8:10 AM
I can't believe some of you guys, and ebr is being a lot nicer than he could be about thus. You guys have nothing to lose by *****ing about not being sold an off roster gun. The person with the FFL had everything to lose. Take a step out of your shoes and see the reality

21SF
05-30-2012, 8:54 AM
I'll just leave this here
http://i769.photobucket.com/albums/xx338/akamurk/DSC00844.jpg

Striker
05-30-2012, 11:28 AM
I'll just leave this here
http://i769.photobucket.com/albums/xx338/akamurk/DSC00844.jpg

What is that? A half rail TRP with a Surefire light and a Benchmade auto knife. Well, I have umm, you know umm......




Sigh.... alright I'm jealous. :)


Very nice setup.

MT1
05-30-2012, 5:58 PM
I didn't imply anything in my post about price one way or the other. What I said was that the dealer doesn't control anything. He's the seller to the end user. Your questions, if they're not being answered to your satisfaction, really need to go the CADOJ and Springfield. Because those places, one or both, is where you're going to get the information you want. And honestly, if I wanted information, I would go to the source with the best information and in this case that's CADOJ.

Knowing the reason is in your best interest, ok. Only you can decide that. In my best interest? Not really because I don't really want one and if I did, I would find a used one or drive down to EBR or call Table Rock or whomever and just SSE one in. The option is there to get one, which is what I care the most about. It just isn't as easy as an on roster gun.

The question was answered to my satisfaction when EBR first responded in this thread, at that point he said what he was told by his distributor, and posted the picture of the case with a "No CA sales" sticker. I was not asking for the DoJ's reason for dropping the pistol, because according to the DoJ site it has not been dropped. I was simply asking for the reasoning behind EBR saying that they have to SSE the pistol, because like I have said a few times now, I own this exact same gun by part number and description with G10 grips, my friend bought one last year on roster with G10 grips...both of our boxes carry the same PC9108LP part number and nowhere do they say "No CA Sales", so my whole line of questioning was based on finding out why the DoJ says on their site that this pistol is ok to buy, yet this gunstore says it isn't.

For some people who are still refusing to read the thread in it's entirety before they lash out at others, I am NOT angry that EBR will not sell outright what they see as an off-roster pistol, nothing like that was ever said, I would never expect an FFL to put themselves in a position to loose their license, this was all simply about looking for an answer to why there is a discrepancy between what the DoJ site says, and what this gunstore says.

Please calm down. :grouphug:

Icypu
05-30-2012, 7:22 PM
In summary while the FFL could DROS a pistol called monkey butt if it is on the roster as a monkey butt. If its a monkey butt "P" pistol instead of monkey butt, its up to them. If you don't like how they are dotting their i's and crossing their t's, you're welcome to:

1. Find an FFL that would like to do the transfer
2. Single shot exempt it
3. Get an 01 FFL and a business license and transfer it yourself

/thread

MT1
05-30-2012, 7:29 PM
In summary while the FFL could DROS a pistol called monkey butt if it is on the roster as a monkey butt. If its a monkey butt "P" pistol instead of monkey butt, its up to them. If you don't like how they are dotting their i's and crossing their t's, you're welcome to:

1. Find an FFL that would like to do the transfer
2. Single shot exempt it
3. Get an 01 FFL and a business license and transfer it yourself

/thread

EBR knows that the "P" is just a package designation and has no influence on it's availability for sale in CA. That was simply a question/explanation presented by several of us before EBR explained exactly why they were saying an SSE was required which has to do with a post-approval change of the grips. I don't think I've heard of an FFL that has actually refused to transfer or sell a "P" part number.

Inoxmark
05-30-2012, 10:19 PM
The way I look at this, it's absolutely unreasonable to expect of dealers to know and remember which gun was originally tested and sold with which grips. I mean, between Browning and FN there are 11 (eleven) models of HiPowers on the roster. Should a dealer know which originally came with wood and which with rubber grips? How about which had medallions on the wooden grips and which did not? Different grips... "Not how it was tested!"

Should a dealer know which particular variety of Beretta 92FS came factory equipped with plastic panels, wood panels, rubber panels, or rubber wraparounds? Same with SIG P220. All of them were used on some variety or another.

Is that GP100 in the used guns display an illegal unsafe weapon unfit for sale now that someone installed Hogue monogrip on it?
What about that Springfield 1911 with wrap around Parchmeyrs? Illegal for sure! Wait a second, that's an MC Operator, they came that way!
Night sights? Better be original factory installed!

This is ridiculous! You could then also argue that it's illegal to sell a gun with an aftermarket magazine, because "it's not how it was tested!". And it would actually have something to do with reliability and safety for a change.

However in this particular case I would cut the dealer some slack. The box was clearly marked by the manufacturer as not containing a rostered handgun. The dealer could choose to ignore the sticker as many do, he chose not to, and that's his right. In my opinion that dealer is taking a lot more risk by doing SSE conversions then he would ever have by selling that Springfield, but that's his choice too.

daybreak
05-31-2012, 12:39 AM
the whole time I've been scratching my head, wondering why someone who really wanted to know just didn't call the DOJ instead of posting in multiple threads on this.

Ubermcoupe
05-31-2012, 12:42 AM
Maybe this subject (same roster number with different grips; one “legal” the other not) can be utilized as an example in the roster challenge?

:shrug:

Solidux
05-31-2012, 1:40 AM
the whole time I've been scratching my head, wondering why someone who really wanted to know just didn't call the DOJ instead of posting in multiple threads on this.

Sometimes, its hard to trust the DOJ because it really depends who in the DOJ you talk to. Left hand doesn't agree with right hand. Right hand doesn't even KNOW what left hand is talking about.

... that being said. If some guy at walmart or big5 told me this, I would literally act as though the wind was louder than I thought.

If EBR said the sky was falling. God dammit the sky must be falling. This guy is the FFL amongst FFLs. He's been there doing us a service since "that trustworthy DOJ" is doing what "trustworthy" DOJs do: utter nonsense. Believe the guy whos livelihood and business this stands upon.

MT1
05-31-2012, 12:37 PM
the whole time I've been scratching my head, wondering why someone who really wanted to know just didn't call the DOJ instead of posting in multiple threads on this.

Have you even read the thread in it's entirety?

Because according to the DoJ, that exact part number IS ok for CA sales...it is listed right on their roster. The question would have to be asked of the FFL as to why he says one thing and the DoJ says another, or of Springfield as to why they have that sticker on the box. If you call the DoJ they're most likely going to just be confused by the question and keep on repeating that the pistol is on the roster. The sticker on the box was not known about until after I posted this thread, if EBR had simply said from the start, "There's a sticker on the box from Springfield saying I cannot sell this in CA." then this would have been a thread only about Springfield and the DoJ.

skyscraper
05-31-2012, 1:37 PM
It isn't the exact number because it doesn't designate the "P"... And for those saying that is ok, can you cite a source with authority on this?

MT1
05-31-2012, 6:00 PM
It isn't the exact number because it doesn't designate the "P"... And for those saying that is ok, can you cite a source with authority on this?


The "P" simply means that the gun comes with the cheapo plastic mag holder and holster, I don't think I've ever heard from the DoJ that the "P" is meaningless, but I have seen it from a multitude of posters on here along with many FFL's including those that I have bought pistols from with a "P" at the end. Additionally these "P" boxes did not have the "No CA Sales" sticker that was on other models strictly for LE or the other states.

If my FFL has submitted paperwork with a PC9108LP part number on it and the DoJ approves the sale then I would lightly assume that means it has their blessing :shrug:

Press Check
05-31-2012, 6:21 PM
If my FFL has submitted paperwork with a PC9108LP part number on it and the DoJ approves the sale then I would lightly assume that means it has their blessing :shrug:

I'm don't think that the DOJ actually cross-references any DROS submissions with the Roster.

daybreak
05-31-2012, 6:34 PM
Have you even read the thread in it's entirety?

yup :lurk5:

skyscraper
05-31-2012, 6:38 PM
The "P" simply means that the gun comes with the cheapo plastic mag holder and holster, I don't think I've ever heard from the DoJ that the "P" is meaningless, but I have seen it from a multitude of posters on here along with many FFL's including those that I have bought pistols from with a "P" at the end. Additionally these "P" boxes did not have the "No CA Sales" sticker that was on other models strictly for LE or the other states.

If my FFL has submitted paperwork with a PC9108LP part number on it and the DoJ approves the sale then I would lightly assume that means it has their blessing :shrug:

I hear ya. I'm just thinking from an ffl standpoint, it would be best to have something in writing since its California, and you know the rest...

cwin
05-31-2012, 8:03 PM
FWIW, I bought mine a couple of months ago without doing a sse from Direct Action Solutions...and it did have a "Not Legal in California," sticker on it. Whether it's on the roster or not, there are a few good shops left that offer sse anyways, either in northern or southern CA. If it's worth it to you, then I'd just go to one of those places to get one.