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Travis590A1
05-26-2012, 9:00 PM
Hey all so I have a question. In a SHTF or WROL senario which caliber would be easier to come by? My gut says 5.56/.223 since our military, L.E., and a lot of civilians own AR, M4, and M-16 platforms but then that also leads me to think that it could be one of the first calibers to go due to its popularity.

P.S. this is not an AR vs AK thread or a thread regarding caliber ballistics. Simply availability.

WRENCHHEAD
05-26-2012, 9:09 PM
.22lr

Travis590A1
05-26-2012, 9:11 PM
In general yes id agree lol

Inquirer
05-26-2012, 9:31 PM
Let me ask you this. If you were a cop, and some idiot came up to you carrying an AR-15 and asked you to give him some of your ammo because it's the same caliber, would you?

--Inq

Agent 0range
05-26-2012, 9:38 PM
That's why I try to keep at least 1K rounds per firearm on hand. In a SHTF scenario with so many gunfights that I'd actually need all those rounds, I probably wouldn't live long enough to use them all. But if I do, that means I'd come up on some ammo from those unfortunate souls that crossed my path!:43:

Rorge Retson
05-26-2012, 9:41 PM
This is an interesting question. From what I hear, when there have been runs on ammo because of FUD in politics, etc., it is the less-popular ammo that stays on the shelves, because fewer people have guns to fire it....

However, the next time there is a run, that ammo is gone more quickly, because in the interim, people have gone out and purchased weapons which fire the ammo that stayed on the shelves longest, the last time.

What makes sense to me in light of this trend is, to have at least one weapon of each caliber on-hand. ;)

NorCalK9.com
05-26-2012, 9:42 PM
Lmao.
for sh@ts n giggles im gonna say 545 i have 17 unopened cans. Also have 6k of 556 and 4k 762 i dont need no one to share with me. And i ainy giving none away neither.

RobGR
05-26-2012, 10:00 PM
All you need to do now NorCalK9 is to stock up on food and have a system in place to purify water, cause it sounds like you are set on the other end. Probably already set on that end too though ;-)

And, in regard to the conversation at hand, the military's main reason for using 9mm handguns was because of the prevalence of 9mm ammo throughout the world. Obviously, many claim it's to cut costs or maybe Beretta undercut everyone else, but let's not go there.

5.56 is obviously going to be more popular in North America, the canadians use 5.56, and what does Central America and South American forces use, mainly .308 and 5.56 right? Com bloc rounds will be all over the African continent, Asia and Eastern Europe. Is there a map or list of countries with the calibre their military forces use?

Travis590A1
05-26-2012, 10:11 PM
Lol I never said a could should or would hand over his ammunition, nor did I imply it. I just stated the popularity of calibers and platforms

Richard Erichsen
05-26-2012, 10:12 PM
Hey all so I have a question. In a SHTF or WROL senario which caliber would be easier to come by? My gut says 5.56/.223 since our military, L.E., and a lot of civilians own AR, M4, and M-16 platforms but then that also leads me to think that it could be one of the first calibers to go due to its popularity.

P.S. this is not an AR vs AK thread or a thread regarding caliber ballistics. Simply availability.

Flawed logic I'm afraid. Here's why:

1) If you don't already have ammo when and if you actually need to discharge your weapon into the brain-hungry horde of undead, you aren't going to be finding any.

2) If a state of emergency is declared and you are spotted with a weapon, bad things could happen. At the very least, you'll be losing your firearms at the next check point, or during a search (including house to house), assuming you aren't just killed on sight for having a firearm.

3) For the reasons above, you aren't going to be "best buddies" with any LE or military attachment ordered into your area and they will not be sharing ammo or any other equipment with you. If water or medical supplies are running out, they are going to use it for their own.

4) "Battlefield pickups" aren't realistic, don't count on any. If the military, who will be considerably better armed, trained and equipped then the average citizen found themselves in a fire fight with Joe citizen and his AR15, Joe Citizen is not going to be on the winning side of that encounter. Once the smoke has cleared and the Darwin Award coordinator contacted, photographs will be taken of the scene and any other evidence collected before whisking the body to the morgue and collecting the weapon(s).

R

Travis590A1
05-26-2012, 10:18 PM
^^^ Party pooper lol

Richard Erichsen
05-26-2012, 10:21 PM
WROL/SHTF/TEOTWAWKT threads are getting on my last nerve. Whether zombies or unwashed hippies, there is a long list of probable causes of death in a real disaster that are neither solved by, nor benefit from having a firearm.

R

MrExel17
05-26-2012, 10:22 PM
I know huh what a pooper...lol he has a right opinion though

repubconserv
05-26-2012, 10:25 PM
12 gauge. The upside to 12 gauge besides being really prevalent, is you have the room on your shotgun to do a full on TEOTWAWKI battle.

Travis590A1
05-26-2012, 10:26 PM
Well then I should just ask...what round is more common in North America?

repubconserv
05-26-2012, 10:30 PM
22lr or 12 gauge... seriously.

Then I'd look at the "surplus" calibers, such as 762x39, 545, 762x54r, etc, but any military calibers that are in civilian hands in SHTF scenario will probably be in the hands of prepared gun owners.

If you want a "pick up" caliber that you will find in peoples houses then it'd be 22lr or 12 gauge

NSR500
05-26-2012, 10:38 PM
All my gear is Phazed Plasma in the 40 watt range.

joash
05-26-2012, 10:39 PM
Not to say that you shouldn't stock up, but... What kind of shooting scenarios are you envisioning? I am assuming you don't intend to use those calibers for hunting/food. I can't imagine a scenario where you are free to blast through 1000 or more rounds of ammo. If you have to be on the move, you aren't carrying more than a few mags. If it's a situation where you are in more than one firefight, then it's likely a scenario a civilian should get as far away from as possible since the odds are heavily stacked against you.

Blackcrow
05-26-2012, 11:13 PM
Flawed logic I'm afraid. Here's why:

4) "Battlefield pickups" aren't realistic, don't count on any. If the military, who will be considerably better armed, trained and equipped then the average citizen found themselves in a fire fight with Joe citizen and his AR15, Joe Citizen is not going to be on the winning side of that encounter. Once the smoke has cleared and the Darwin Award coordinator contacted, photographs will be taken of the scene and any other evidence collected before whisking the body to the morgue and collecting the weapon(s).

R

Umm :confused:

Are you kidding me? Does 1993 ring any bells? I am sure the people who fought our troops in Mogadishu were not well trained. And looked how that worked out for us.

g17owner
05-26-2012, 11:36 PM
First off you should have a decent stockpile of ammo on hand. There are roughly 3 million active duty military personal on duty or stand by. With nearly 90 guns per 100 people and over 313 million in the USA i dont think the United States military could handle it all if it really got hairy. Simple math will tell you that. Lastly in this fictional scenario I ain't asking a cop for anything.

Travis590A1
05-26-2012, 11:39 PM
True history has proven that a well armed "civilians" can put up a fight against any modern army. Hell its being shown now in afganistan.

ruggedjackal357
05-26-2012, 11:46 PM
what about .308? also, there is .22lr ammo at every gun shop and big 5...but some places dont always have .223 or 7.62...like big 5 for example

Dhena81
05-26-2012, 11:52 PM
The ultimate SHTF setup would be an AK-74 and a 9mm pistol you can buy a lot more ammo that way. It would be easy to conceal also if you have a folding stock and ammo is light.

mif_slim
05-27-2012, 12:29 AM
The most ammo you'll need is water, food, first aid kit. In that order. Guns and ammo is last on your mind when real SHTF.

1lostinspace
05-27-2012, 12:37 AM
Power 7.62
Range 5.56
Weight 5.56
Accuracy 5.56
Follow up shot 5.56
Cost about same
Availability 5.56
Storage 5.56 unless 7.62 is sealed like Golden Tiger ammo.

I prefer 5.56 but even more 5.45

BradleyAbrams
05-27-2012, 1:32 AM
7.62 X 39

It is the best compromise between the power of a .308 and the light carry weight of the 5.56.

7.62 is plentiful, and if own a rifle in this caliber, then surely you are self sufficient in ammo for feeding such animal - Say, about 2000 rounds in reserve.

Accuracy of 5.56 over the 7.62 X 39 is a non issue.

History shows us that most SHTF scenarios occur in Urban environments, because that is where most of the population happens to live.

As such, your enemy will likely be hidding behind hard cover such as a wall of brick or masonry, and that they will be within some 50 meters away.

50 Meters is a reasonable, expected distance to exist between houses or structures facing each other across any street or boulevard. Picture in your mind the street fighting in Yugoslavia in the mid 1990s. Most all of it was within 50 Meters or so.

At this range, under these circumstances the 7.62 is superior to the 5.56. The 7.62 will penetrate walls which would cause a 5.56 to bounce off harmlessly.

Extend this potential range out to 100 Meters and the 7.62 is even more superior to the 5.56 in penetrating power..

Only at open ranges beyond 150 -200 meters does the 5.56 round's better accuracy arguably perform better than the 7.62 X 39.

So if you envision a scenario where your 5.56 is your primary weapon, you had better hope that the situation goes down in open country and Not in any Urban Area. Especially if the opposition is armed with 7.62 X 39s..


SUMMATION:

7.62 X 39 = Best Compromise Cartridge.

It is lighter to carry eight to nine magazines of 7.62 X 39 than a similar loadout of .308 NATO.

7.62 X 39 is superior to a 5.56 where it matters most; Punching through walls from 50 to 100 Meters away, in order to defeat an enemy combatant actively seeking cover behind said structure, as normally found in an Urban environment firefight or Close Quarters Battle ( CQB ). .


-

Safety1st
05-27-2012, 2:02 AM
If there comes a time people are openly carrying (and using) long guns on the streets for protection, you have serious sh$t to worry about.

Using African conflict zones as a reference, you want to avoid the areas where people openly carry weapons. Getting out of dodge would be far more important than the type of ammo you're using.

I'm guessing you could get by with less than 200 rounds of any caliber, cause in a scenario like that you won't last long anyway.

Ryan in SD
05-27-2012, 2:43 AM
Everything looks great on paper!

The War Wagon
05-27-2012, 3:43 AM
NO caliber will be plentiful, come SHTF. You will pay through the nose, and probably several OTHER orifices, just to acquire one mag's worth of ANYTHING. :eek:

Yes, 5.56 is more plentiful RIGHT NOW. Come SHTF? NOTHING (food, clothing, medicine, gasoline, electricity, batteries, band-aids, booze, smokes, chew, shoes, et.al.)... will be, "plentiful"... :o

artoaster
05-27-2012, 4:38 AM
Best is a system of planned accumulation of appropriate ammunition through buying cycles during off-peak demand periods.

Like buy in bulk repeatedly until you have at least 5K rounds of rifle ammo to store.

Also, y'all been watching too much TV and too many movies!
:popcorn:

mbt
05-27-2012, 5:19 AM
Here's ur answer: U need to get a muzzle loader and make ur own lead balls.

sd_shooter
05-27-2012, 6:10 AM
Lmao.
for sh@ts n giggles im gonna say 545 i have 17 unopened cans. Also have 6k of 556 and 4k 762 i dont need no one to share with me. And i ainy giving none away neither.

So that's where all the ammo has gone! :D

But the point is: buy a case for every caliber you shoot and you'll have more than enough for any SHTF scenario.

1lostinspace
05-27-2012, 6:46 AM
7.62 X 39

It is the best compromise between the power of a .308 and the light carry weight of the 5.56.

7.62 is plentiful, and if own a rifle in this caliber, then surely you are self sufficient in ammo for feeding such animal - Say, about 2000 rounds in reserve.

Accuracy of 5.56 over the 7.62 X 39 is a non issue.

History shows us that most SHTF scenarios occur in Urban environments, because that is where most of the population happens to live.

As such, your enemy will likely be hidding behind hard cover such as a wall of brick or masonry, and that they will be within some 50 meters away.

50 Meters is a reasonable, expected distance to exist between houses or structures facing each other across any street or boulevard. Picture in your mind the street fighting in Yugoslavia in the mid 1990s. Most all of it was within 50 Meters or so.

At this range, under these circumstances the 7.62 is superior to the 5.56. The 7.62 will penetrate walls which would cause a 5.56 to bounce off harmlessly.

Extend this potential range out to 100 Meters and the 7.62 is even more superior to the 5.56 in penetrating power..

Only at open ranges beyond 150 -200 meters does the 5.56 round's better accuracy arguably perform better than the 7.62 X 39.

So if you envision a scenario where your 5.56 is your primary weapon, you had better hope that the situation goes down in open country and Not in any Urban Area. Especially if the opposition is armed with 7.62 X 39s..


SUMMATION:

7.62 X 39 = Best Compromise Cartridge.

It is lighter to carry eight to nine magazines of 7.62 X 39 than a similar loadout of .308 NATO.

7.62 X 39 is superior to a 5.56 where it matters most; Punching through walls from 50 to 100 Meters away, in order to defeat an enemy combatant actively seeking cover behind said structure, as normally found in an Urban environment firefight or Close Quarters Battle ( CQB ). .


-

The fact is comparing Fmj 5.56 is far more destructive to 7.62x39 on soft tissue.
As far as penetrating walls 7.62 does a better job but the walls here in California
are no match for .22lr
The key is to be light and fast even the Russians ditched the 7.62x39 and use 5.45. I live in the mountains and to hike with a full combat load of 7.62 is crazy!
Water and other gear make u way heavy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGgojSI62pI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

In my humble opinion 5.56 is a far better choice. Accuracy is the key not punching through walls. Anything with in 700-800 yards can be controlled with 5.56 so picture everything down the street. 7.62 is a 300 yard round.

Richard Erichsen
05-27-2012, 7:27 AM
Umm :confused:

Are you kidding me? Does 1993 ring any bells? I am sure the people who fought our troops in Mogadishu were not well trained. And looked how that worked out for us.

Strength in numbers (home territory advantage), poor planning on our part and a well motivated, if poorly trained and equipped opponent. If we have a disaster at home, it won't look like that.

Armed civis walking around with backpacks or in 4 wheel drive camouflaged battle wagons are going to have a really bad day when spotted by much better armed military personnel with orders to shoot anyone out after dark or carrying a weapon at any time. My original point was there will be no "battlefield pickups" - e.g. there will be no crates of ammo, food, water and medical supplies or weapons left lying around like in some B movie or video game.

R

Richard Erichsen
05-27-2012, 7:30 AM
If there comes a time people are openly carrying (and using) long guns on the streets for protection, you have serious sh$t to worry about.

Using African conflict zones as a reference, you want to avoid the areas where people openly carry weapons. Getting out of dodge would be far more important than the type of ammo you're using.

I'm guessing you could get by with less than 200 rounds of any caliber, cause in a scenario like that you won't last long anyway.

Right you are. That's thinkin' with your noggin!

FX-05 Xiuhcoatl
05-27-2012, 7:33 AM
That's why I try to keep at least 1K rounds per firearm on hand. In a SHTF scenario with so many gunfights that I'd actually need all those rounds, I probably wouldn't live long enough to use them all. But if I do, that means I'd come up on some ammo from those unfortunate souls that crossed my path!:43:

^ wow I was just thinking the same thing, being a california gun owner we make our shoots count.

<IXOYE><
05-27-2012, 7:36 AM
5.56

Richard Erichsen
05-27-2012, 7:39 AM
NO caliber will be plentiful, come SHTF. You will pay through the nose, and probably several OTHER orifices, just to acquire one mag's worth of ANYTHING. :eek:

Yes, 5.56 is more plentiful RIGHT NOW. Come SHTF? NOTHING (food, clothing, medicine, gasoline, electricity, batteries, band-aids, booze, smokes, chew, shoes, et.al.)... will be, "plentiful"... :o

TWW understands supply and demand.

How good are your bartering skills? How will you even trust anyone enough to approach them to barter if they are likely armed, or may be in a larger group than you?

What is the going rate for a single round of ammunition for typical items like bandages, iodine tablets or chlorine to sanitize water? While you may never have to fire your weapon, or even reveal you have one, you are going to need water frequently and you may first aid or that wound could become infected. Ammo is heavy, but so is water. When push comes to shove, you need to ditch anything that won't save you and literally carrying around lead (ammo) is going to displace a lot of water, medical supplies and food. If you think ammo is going to be "expensive" (going rate for barter) OP, medical supplies will be worth more than gold.

R

1lostinspace
05-27-2012, 7:39 AM
^ wow I was just thinking the same thing, being a california gun owner we make our shoots count.

When the last time any of you ran walked hiked with 1000 rounds?
Water,food,shelter,medical aid, communication, is going to be needed before anything else. About 100 round is all you need and can carry if your carrying everything else.

weber_2
05-27-2012, 7:44 AM
556 cuz when your walking around town like in Resident Evil you will find more caches and ammo boxes of 556 and dead soldiers will also have this. Remember you can only carry two guns but put the others in a cache box that magically appears in save spots. Now if you have a cheat code you can input for infinite ammo which is what I would do if SHTF.

Richard Erichsen
05-27-2012, 7:45 AM
The fact is comparing Fmj 5.56 is far more destructive to 7.62x39 on soft tissue.
As far as penetrating walls 7.62 does a better job but the walls here in California
are no match for .22lr
The key is to be light and fast even the Russians ditched the 7.62x39 and use 5.45. I live in the mountains and to hike with a full combat load of 7.62 is crazy!
Water and other gear make u way heavy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGgojSI62pI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

In my humble opinion 5.56 is a far better choice. Accuracy is the key not punching through walls. Anything with in 700-800 yards can be controlled with 5.56 so picture everything down the street. 7.62 is a 300 yard round.

It hardly matters in the scenario, but 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 are calibers, they are not "rounds." There are many types of ammunition available in each caliber. 7.62x39 ammunition types, including Uly "effect" 8M3, Hornady Vmax and SST are known to tumble within a few inches of soft tissue and are prone to fragment. None of that matters if you don't already own it per the above and no amount of ammo will save you if you run out of water, become injured doing something no more heroic than tripping over a rock that leads to an infection that may well kill you.

R

Richard Erichsen
05-27-2012, 7:53 AM
The most ammo you'll need is water, food, first aid kit. In that order. Guns and ammo is last on your mind when real SHTF.

Were you on the other thread with we me debating this topic with folks that were hell bent on the position it was the other way around? The main focus seemed to be in deadly dealings with roving gangs of armed thugs. After a day or two without water and suffering from blurred vision and a splitting headache, I have my doubts about how combat effective anyone could expect to be.

R

joash
05-27-2012, 7:54 AM
.233/.556 makes the most sense, 5.45 if you're an AK guy.

Some posters have argued that untrained civilians can take on modern militaries, um yeah if they don't mind dying for their cause in large numbers.

1lostinspace
05-27-2012, 7:59 AM
It hardly matters in the scenario, but 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 are calibers, they are not "rounds." There are many types of ammunition available in each caliber. 7.62x39 ammunition types, including Uly "effect" 8M3, Hornady Vmax and SST are known to tumble within a few inches of soft tissue and are prone to fragment. None of that matters if you don't already own it per the above and no amount of ammo will save you if you run out of water, become injured doing something no more heroic than tripping over a rock that leads to an infection that may well kill you.

R

If your using Vmax then you loose barrier penetration. I think militaries around the world have thought this through and why they use 5.56/5.45. Friends coming back from the sandbox have told me that they hit the enemy at distances and push them back.

joash
05-27-2012, 8:07 AM
The problem with this debate is that it is too wide open with too many variables. Nobody really knows what SHTF is, that's why everyone is talking about something different. One guy is talking about Yugoslavia, another Afghanistan and the rest about a big earthquake.

Some people are talking about urban combat. Others are talking about shooting at the Taliban who are hiding in the mountains and others are talking about shooting rabbits for food after the apocalypse.

cortayack
05-27-2012, 8:15 AM
The fact is comparing Fmj 5.56 is far more destructive to 7.62x39 on soft tissue.
As far as penetrating walls 7.62 does a better job but the walls here in California
are no match for .22lr
The key is to be light and fast even the Russians ditched the 7.62x39 and use 5.45. I live in the mountains and to hike with a full combat load of 7.62 is crazy!
Water and other gear make u way heavy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGgojSI62pI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

In my humble opinion 5.56 is a far better choice. Accuracy is the key not punching through walls. Anything with in 700-800 yards can be controlled with 5.56 so picture everything down the street. 7.62 is a 300 yard round.

Even though Russia officially replaced 7.62x39 for front-line service in Soviet army by 5.45x39 ammunition in 1974, it was never officially declared obsolete and plenty of 7.62x39 weapons are still in service with Russian army and law enforcement forces..

Arkangel
05-27-2012, 8:22 AM
I love these threads...

reidnez
05-27-2012, 8:23 AM
Sigh...will these threads ever end? Not to be a downer, but if such a scenario occurs, we're all basically done. Nobody is self-sufficient these days. Sure, you can stockpile two years worth of canned food and water...and what are you going to do when that runs out? What's that, you'll just hunt and fish? You really think with 300 million hungry people running around, the local wildlife won't be wiped out overnight? Sorry. We have artificially boosted the carrying capacity of the earth via petro-agriculture. We simply have NO means of feeding all our people, nor transporting that food, without the infrastructure. We're too urbanized. Human population was basically stable for hundreds of thousands of years for that reason; the population reached what the environment would support, until we blew away that barrier with technology. Nature will eventually course-correct, and unfortunately that means most of us are going to die. It might not happen in my lifetime, and I sure hope it doesn't, but it is an inevitability.

I know a big-time survivalist who has an impressive cache of weapons, food, ammunition, the ability to purify water, a couple acres of carefully-selected crops on his property. He's also a diabetic. Yeah, all that stuff's great except he's dead within a couple days once the insulin runs out. Never mind that insulin expires after a month or so without refrigeration, so it's not as though you can realistically stockpile a lifetime supply. How many of you survivalist-types are dependent on modern medicine for your survival? How are you going to plan for that? I apologize, but it's just delusional.

trespassingproductions
05-27-2012, 8:23 AM
All my gear is Phazed Plasma in the 40 watt range.

^ this

1lostinspace
05-27-2012, 8:34 AM
Sigh...will these threads ever end? Not to be a downer, but if such a scenario occurs, we're all basically done. Nobody is self-sufficient these days. Sure, you can stockpile two years worth of canned food and water...and what are you going to do when that runs out? What's that, you'll just hunt and fish? You really think with 300 million hungry people running around, the local wildlife won't be wiped out overnight? Sorry. We have artificially boosted the carrying capacity of the earth via petro-agriculture. We simply have NO means of feeding all our people, nor transporting that food, without the infrastructure. We're too urbanized. Human population was basically stable for hundreds of thousands of years for that reason; the population reached what the environment would support, until we blew away that barrier with technology. Nature will eventually course-correct, and unfortunately that means most of us are going to die. It might not happen in my lifetime, and I sure hope it doesn't, but it is an inevitability.

I know a big-time survivalist who has an impressive cache of weapons, food, ammunition, the ability to purify water, a couple acres of carefully-selected crops on his property. He's also a diabetic. Yeah, all that stuff's great except he's dead within a couple days once the insulin runs out. Never mind that insulin expires after a month or so without refrigeration, so it's not as though you can realistically stockpile a lifetime supply. How many of you survivalist-types are dependent on modern medicine for your survival? How are you going to plan for that? I apologize, but it's just delusional.

With 300 million people running around there will be plenty to eat!

zfields
05-27-2012, 8:53 AM
I'm convinced you are a troll at this point OP.

Richard Erichsen
05-27-2012, 10:06 AM
Sigh...will these threads ever end? Not to be a downer, but if such a scenario occurs, we're all basically done. Nobody is self-sufficient these days. Sure, you can stockpile two years worth of canned food and water...and what are you going to do when that runs out? What's that, you'll just hunt and fish? You really think with 300 million hungry people running around, the local wildlife won't be wiped out overnight? Sorry. We have artificially boosted the carrying capacity of the earth via petro-agriculture. We simply have NO means of feeding all our people, nor transporting that food, without the infrastructure. We're too urbanized. Human population was basically stable for hundreds of thousands of years for that reason; the population reached what the environment would support, until we blew away that barrier with technology. Nature will eventually course-correct, and unfortunately that means most of us are going to die. It might not happen in my lifetime, and I sure hope it doesn't, but it is an inevitability.

I know a big-time survivalist who has an impressive cache of weapons, food, ammunition, the ability to purify water, a couple acres of carefully-selected crops on his property. He's also a diabetic. Yeah, all that stuff's great except he's dead within a couple days once the insulin runs out. Never mind that insulin expires after a month or so without refrigeration, so it's not as though you can realistically stockpile a lifetime supply. How many of you survivalist-types are dependent on modern medicine for your survival? How are you going to plan for that? I apologize, but it's just delusional.

You hit the nail on the head with that one. Whether diabetes or some other drug dependent chronic illness, you may only be a few missed doses away from serious trouble. Many meds can expire rapidly unless properly stored.

R

Richard Erichsen
05-27-2012, 10:12 AM
The problem with this debate is that it is too wide open with too many variables. Nobody really knows what SHTF is, that's why everyone is talking about something different. One guy is talking about Yugoslavia, another Afghanistan and the rest about a big earthquake.

Some people are talking about urban combat. Others are talking about shooting at the Taliban who are hiding in the mountains and others are talking about shooting rabbits for food after the apocalypse.

You've got that right. Totally different scenarios.

However, my basic premise is that regardless of the scenario (assuming its some kind of catastrophe, you are a civilian and home when it happens) is that basic needs come before fun toys that go "bang." Your massive collection of weapons might be collecting dust because you stayed out of the cross-hairs and survived it. If it's a quake, eventually rebuilding will occur and something approximately life before the event restored. If it's one of those end-of-the-world hypotheticals than the caliber of your firearm is going to be the least of anyones worries.

R

joash
05-27-2012, 3:09 PM
Like many people have pointed out in the past, it's a form of fantasy. If people really cared about surviving, they would try eliminate the immediate threats to their lives - obesity, cardiovascular disease, air pollution, car accidents etc. rather than stock up on ammo for the zombies.

Travis590A1
05-27-2012, 3:36 PM
Thanks fields your too kind. Second as I said before I just wanted to know what caliber is more common. Not why we wouldnt survive or what supplies would be available. Simply which round is more common? Several people took thia thread and just ran with it and made it into a bunch of rambled paragraphs which have nothing to do with the original topic.

Richard Erichsen
05-27-2012, 3:49 PM
Reflect on what you posted:

"7.62 vs 5.56/.223
Hey all so I have a question. In a SHTF or WROL senario which caliber would be easier to come by? My gut says 5.56/.223 since our military, L.E., and a lot of civilians own AR, M4, and M-16 platforms but then that also leads me to think that it could be one of the first calibers to go due to its popularity.

P.S. this is not an AR vs AK thread or a thread regarding caliber ballistics. Simply availability. "

The terms "SHTF" and "WROL" did the damage. You get what you get.

R

JackOfBlades
05-27-2012, 3:55 PM
Sigh...will these threads ever end? Not to be a downer, but if such a scenario occurs, we're all basically done. Nobody is self-sufficient these days. Sure, you can stockpile two years worth of canned food and water...and what are you going to do when that runs out? What's that, you'll just hunt and fish? You really think with 300 million hungry people running around, the local wildlife won't be wiped out overnight? Sorry. We have artificially boosted the carrying capacity of the earth via petro-agriculture. We simply have NO means of feeding all our people, nor transporting that food, without the infrastructure. We're too urbanized. Human population was basically stable for hundreds of thousands of years for that reason; the population reached what the environment would support, until we blew away that barrier with technology. Nature will eventually course-correct, and unfortunately that means most of us are going to die. It might not happen in my lifetime, and I sure hope it doesn't, but it is an inevitability.

I know a big-time survivalist who has an impressive cache of weapons, food, ammunition, the ability to purify water, a couple acres of carefully-selected crops on his property. He's also a diabetic. Yeah, all that stuff's great except he's dead within a couple days once the insulin runs out. Never mind that insulin expires after a month or so without refrigeration, so it's not as though you can realistically stockpile a lifetime supply. How many of you survivalist-types are dependent on modern medicine for your survival? How are you going to plan for that? I apologize, but it's just delusional.


You pretty much summed it all up. Awesome job.

Everyone should just pray to whatever god they worship (or don't worship) that society doesn't fall apart.

Richard Erichsen
05-27-2012, 3:58 PM
^^^ Agreed.

R

Travis590A1
05-27-2012, 4:11 PM
Ok well beyond the fact that like 5 of you are just trolling saying how much you hate these threads and when will they stop, so then why reply and feed the fire? You don't like the post then simply move a long and don't post. Or post and troll your choice. I'm not the one who threw this post off topic the first couple of replies made sense the rest was about bs.

FourLoko
05-27-2012, 5:19 PM
Because this got zero replies and because I was a hater: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=576476

I think 7.62x39 can be reliable and I intend to make sure.

LBDamned
05-27-2012, 5:21 PM
The most ammo you'll need is water, food, first aid kit. In that order. Guns and ammo is last on your mind when real SHTF.

you better hope there arent any thugs planning to strong arm you for your water and food (or any other possessions)... imho without guns & ammo, anything else you have wont matter.

joash
05-27-2012, 5:52 PM
If you look at two of the worst disasters in recent US history, the LA Riots in 1992 and Katrina in 2005, I don't think you will find many people who went through cases of ammo defending themselves.

Are there publicized accounts of people fighting off hordes with their trusty AR-15 or AK? I haven't heard of any.

Most of the images of Korean store owners on their rooftops firing warning shots at looters were merely people defending their businesses, not their homes or their lives. A store is something you can insure and definitely not worth my life.

Travis590A1
05-27-2012, 5:58 PM
During the l.a. riots most people used a good ol pump shotgun.

joash
05-27-2012, 6:00 PM
I was in LA for the riots and don't recall anyone defending their home or person with a firearm, only people trying to scare away looters from stores.

LBDamned
05-27-2012, 6:24 PM
LA riots were isolated and small in comparison to anything catastrophic...

I think it's short-sighted and somewhat naive to think that a much larger scale situation would have the same outcome.

IMO the most likely would be mass destructive earthquake... For those of us who grew up here, we've heard it all our lives "the big one is coming"... maybe it is, maybe it isnt - but I'm convinced if it does happen, the LA riots will seem like Disneyland in comparison.

I'm certain the majority of state residents are fooled into thinking it will be without chaos and massive threat, and duped into thinking having plenty of water, cans of food, first aid, etc is all you need - I'm not one of those.

Travis590A1
05-27-2012, 6:43 PM
I know everyone needs water and food but in a lawless community protection is number 1 if you can't protect what you have then it will just be taken from you. In a real shtf senario bullets will be the new currency IMHO

1lostinspace
05-27-2012, 7:18 PM
I own both and shoot and know way too much and can tell you 5.56 is a better over all round

The Right to Bear Arms
05-27-2012, 9:33 PM
5.56 is obviously going to be more popular in North America, the canadians use 5.56, and what does Central America and South American forces use, mainly .308 and 5.56 right? Com bloc rounds will be all over the African continent, Asia and Eastern Europe. Is there a map or list of countries with the calibre their military forces use?

Travis, I like RobGR's line of thinking on this. Adhering to the essence of this thread which is " simple availability " and not the performance merits of each in a variety of shooting situations, the answer is clear. 5.56 / .223. I'd like to make an addendum to the conversation though. 5.56 exists and will continue to be present in North America compare to Russian surplus calibers and that of course changes on different continents.

That said, someone mentioned having a platform that you have trained sufficiently with in both calibers. Food for thought. I like Rifles period and will not condemn 7.62x54r or 7.62x39. I just think that stuff if it exists in any quantity for WROL or SHTF will be even more zealously hoarded by applicable gun owners than the ever popular 5.56/.223.

So fill in the gaps and get a value based deal on either an AR style platform or AK and train in your deficiencies so they no longer represent liabilities wherein " simple availability " is concerned.

We know 5.56 / .223 is here. The question is how will any of us get " our " hands on it for SHTF ?

Oh heck, let's just all Calgunners meet up somewhere and fortify an existing structure to ride out the emergency and rebuild with a renewed sense of community.

Fact is, we all have to stick together. There are some bad apples out there but they will weed themselves out of existence by simply being themselves. The meek ( loosely used term ) really will inherit the earth.

Let's make it a great beginning !

RBA

1lostinspace
05-27-2012, 9:49 PM
Both rounds kill just fine and there is enough to go around

zfields
05-27-2012, 10:15 PM
Both rounds kill just fine and there is enough to go around

+1.

Not like you can pick up a different weapon down the road, mad max style.

Sent from my Incredible 2 using Tapatalk 2

duc748bip
05-28-2012, 12:10 AM
Does .22 lr have shorter shelf life? Or more susceptible to moisture or oil killing the primer.
And also where can I get a portable solar panel array large enough to recharge the plasma rifle so I can be fully self sufficient? ( unless it's a nuclear winter... Bummer)

zfields
05-28-2012, 12:17 AM
Does .22 lr have shorter shelf life? Or more susceptible to moisture or oil killing the primer.
And also where can I get a portable solar panel array large enough to recharge the plasma rifle so I can be fully self sufficient? ( unless it's a nuclear winter... Bummer)

I've shot some pretty damn old 22 short that was stashed in a drawer out in my grandfathers garage.

Rimfire in general isn't as reliable as centerfire

Maddog5150
05-28-2012, 1:00 AM
Strength in numbers (home territory advantage), poor planning on our part and a well motivated, if poorly trained and equipped opponent. If we have a disaster at home, it won't look like that.

Armed civis walking around with backpacks or in 4 wheel drive camouflaged battle wagons are going to have a really bad day when spotted by much better armed military personnel with orders to shoot anyone out after dark or carrying a weapon at any time. My original point was there will be no "battlefield pickups" - e.g. there will be no crates of ammo, food, water and medical supplies or weapons left lying around like in some B movie or video game.

R

Why do you assume military will be firing on civillians? Do you get off on such a fantasy? Does it make you happy to have our military as a boogyman? People need to keep tin foiled hate of the military in Yugo and problemchild thread :rolleyes:

Richard Erichsen
05-28-2012, 10:37 AM
Why do you assume military will be firing on civillians? Do you get off on such a fantasy? Does it make you happy to have our military as a boogyman? People need to keep tin foiled hate of the military in Yugo and problemchild thread :rolleyes:

LEs and military will fire on ARMED civilians to protect themselves for the same reason an LEO would fire on an armed suspect. Martial Law expands those conditions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law

R

mif_slim
05-28-2012, 10:44 AM
you better hope there arent any thugs planning to strong arm you for your water and food (or any other possessions)... imho without guns & ammo, anything else you have wont matter.

And you've experianced this first hand or thought about it and think you'll need a gun?

My family fled from heavily armed men seeking to mass murder anyone they come in sight with. The last thing on my parents mind was a gun. It was food, water and first aid that kept them a live. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you will live. It'll actually draw more attention. At least that's what happen to the thousands of stories of the escape from communist rule. Those who had guns had the least amount of survival vs those who were quiet and stayed under the radar.

Maddog5150
05-28-2012, 10:52 AM
LEs and military will fire on ARMED civilians to protect themselves for the same reason an LEO would fire on an armed suspect. Martial Law expands those conditions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law

R

Yea, there is something called ROE, just because people are in a camo vehicle or even have a weapon or camo'd pack doesnt mean police, or mil will fire. Get real, our troops dont even fire "just because" on insurgents overseas yet you think they will be JBT's.
Have fun with your red dawn fantasy there :cool:

g17owner
05-28-2012, 10:59 AM
Yea, there is something called ROE, just because people are in a camo vehicle or even have a weapon or camo'd pack doesnt mean police, or mil will fire. Get real, our troops dont even fire "just because" on insurgents overseas yet you think they will be JBT's.
Have fun with your red dawn fantasy there :cool:

Dont feed the troll Maddog. The guy is just a wind bag who probably has never served. He just watches a lot of History channel and "thinks" he knows of what he speaks. You nailed it 100% in it practically takes an act of congress to be able to engage a enemy in a combat zone 10k miles away let alone on our own soil. This what he WANTS to believe. I am more worried about the bozo opportunistic folk who are looking to do me and my own harm. Maybe you think we are talking about going head to head with the military. I think that is what this guys fantasy has cooked up IDK. BTW thank you for your service on this Memorial Day.

g17owner
05-28-2012, 11:03 AM
And you've experianced this first hand or thought about it and think you'll need a gun?

My family fled from heavily armed men seeking to mass murder anyone they come in sight with. The last thing on my parents mind was a gun. It was food, water and first aid that kept them a live. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you will live. It'll actually draw more attention. At least that's what happen to the thousands of stories of the escape from communist rule. Those who had guns had the least amount of survival vs those who were quiet and stayed under the radar.

You are comparing a country with a population that has/had extremely limited weapons such as a communist state to that in which there is almost a 1:1 ratio of guns to people? Apple to Oranges Sir. Your situation worked because there were no friendlies with a decent amount of weapons. Stealth is always better then confrontation I agree but when faced with confrontation I rather have a weapon and not need it then need and not have.

The Right to Bear Arms
05-28-2012, 12:42 PM
You are comparing a country with a population that has/had extremely limited weapons such as a communist state to that in which there is almost a 1:1 ratio of guns to people? Apple to Oranges Sir. Your situation worked because there were no friendlies with a decent amount of weapons. Stealth is always better then confrontation I agree but when faced with confrontation I rather have a weapon and not need it then need and not have.

Amen. Let's not superimpose our individual experiences on any new situation that sets global society back 2 centuries. The fact is it would be new to everyone. Some segments of American society just care enough to dialogue a set of contingencies and assert themselves towards practical survival.

LBDamned
05-28-2012, 12:58 PM
And you've experianced this first hand or thought about it and think you'll need a gun?

My family fled from heavily armed men seeking to mass murder anyone they come in sight with. The last thing on my parents mind was a gun. It was food, water and first aid that kept them a live. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you will live. It'll actually draw more attention. At least that's what happen to the thousands of stories of the escape from communist rule. Those who had guns had the least amount of survival vs those who were quiet and stayed under the radar.

that situation is far different from the scenario I mentioned... I'm referring to protection against thugs that look to overtake property/possessions in the instance of catastrophic earthquake (for example)... all your water and food will be useless if you can't protect it and your family from desperate people willing to do anything to survive.

And no, I've never been in the situation (neither have you)... but what makes your plan and opinion more important and more right than mine?

Look at it this way, what is your reason for owning a gun right currently? Now magnify that times 100 (or more) and you'll understand my point.

BTW, if your parents had access to a gun, do you not think they would have armed themselves with it?

smittty
05-28-2012, 1:17 PM
Equal imo, 7.62 or 5.56. Both are common and equally popular.

I think most people would be discrete when out and about to not draw attention.

To guard their homes I think people would stand armed with what ever they had.

If my family lived thru such a disaster and if we had means to travel, I think we would want go as far away as possible.

I think the ultimate caliber rifle or pistol to own is 22lr. They are generally smaller, weigh less and you can carry far more 22 ammo than any other. And it's not as loud if you need to hunt with it.

You don't need a lot of complicated stuff to survive. Bleach to purify water and disinfect your living area. Rat traps to catch food and a way to make fire. This sounds gross so I'd want get as far away as possible!

mif_slim
05-28-2012, 7:39 PM
that situation is far different from the scenario I mentioned... I'm referring to protection against thugs that look to overtake property/possessions in the instance of catastrophic earthquake (for example)... all your water and food will be useless if you can't protect it and your family from desperate people willing to do anything to survive.

And no, I've never been in the situation (neither have you)... but what makes your plan and opinion more important and more right than mine?

Look at it this way, what is your reason for owning a gun right currently? Now magnify that times 100 (or more) and you'll understand my point.

BTW, if your parents had access to a gun, do you not think they would have armed themselves with it?

History always repeats itself and situations as such I gave will happen, only worst because most people today can't even survive a week if you put them in a secluded area with guns and no food or water.

Today I own a gun because like to protect my loved ones, hunt and compete. In that order. And to protect doesn't mean I'm going to engage threat because I see people with guns. I will keep my family away from getting into confrontations so a gun is last resort. But since I do have a gun, it will keep food on the table and that will be its primary roll. Not stock piling ammo by the thousands waiting to laydown covering fire to suppress the enemy.
Hunting in itself is a skill. You see how many people in the hunting section ask where and how to start hunting?? You can go months and even years without even seeing any big game to shoot, and when SHTF comes, with no food or water and no skills in hunting, a gun with a million ammo can't kill if the operator can't find anything to shoot at.

Lastly, a lot of the people that fled had weapons, but they chose to leave them behind. My father had a M16 with plenty of ammo for battle, he left it. Stupid move? Nope, we all survived and living today.

LBDamned
05-28-2012, 7:48 PM
^^^ it's very clear that you are refusing to see a point of view other than your own.

I never said a gun instead food and water... I said a gun to protect yourself, your family from others that will do ill will in order to obtain your food and water.

As far as leaving a weapon behind when someone is stalking me and would shoot to kill. I'll take my chances with the weapon. This doesn't mean you have to.

Let's hope we never face a situation where these opposite views need to be put to the test. But in the event that it does happen, I'll be sure to arm myself. And good luck to you.

LBDamned
05-28-2012, 7:59 PM
Equal imo, 7.62 or 5.56. Both are common and equally popular.

I think most people would be discrete when out and about to not draw attention.

To guard their homes I think people would stand armed with what ever they had.

If my family lived thru such a disaster and if we had means to travel, I think we would want go as far away as possible.

I think the ultimate caliber rifle or pistol to own is 22lr. They are generally smaller, weigh less and you can carry far more 22 ammo than any other. And it's not as loud if you need to hunt with it.

You don't need a lot of complicated stuff to survive. Bleach to purify water and disinfect your living area. Rat traps to catch food and a way to make fire. This sounds gross so I'd want get as far away as possible!

I agree with this view... the problem (imo) is that if/when a catastrophic quake hits, there will be no place to get away... thoroughfares will be blocked by debris or simply demolished (there aren't many ways out of So Cal (or CA in general)... what roadways that are open will be nutz (hell, it takes an hour to go 20 miles daily for me, imagine 100% or more congested)...

We all can go on for days about various scenarios - and some of us agree that guns & ammo would be important (other not so much)... I'm relatively certain that bartering with ammo will be a viable option. Which brings it full circle to OP's question = .223 (I don't know where .22 and what round is better came from - he only asked what caliber would be most available between 7.67x39, 5.56 and .223).

mif_slim
05-28-2012, 9:24 PM
No, I'm not saying I'm not accepting only my view. I'm only responding to what was said in response to my first response to the OP.

If I recall correctly you said if one don't have guns and ammo, anything else doesn't matter...to me, I read it as you don't need anything because guns and ammo solves everything. Solves survival, solves hunger, dehydration, etc. My post is the essential to surviving is water, food and firstaid..anything else comes later.

Most people get too caught up in guns will solve everything when it simply doesn't. It's just another tool.

joash
05-29-2012, 6:29 AM
What country, Cambodia?

I think mif_slim has a point. If you are walking around with a long gun, you are a definite target for armed bands. Despite what happens in the movies, a lone rifleman doesn't usually stand much of a chance after being spotted by a larger armed force.

Maybe a concealed handgun would be more useful.

Many people on this forum seem unaware, but in places WROL firearms & ammo are themselves frequently targets of robbery. In South Africa, that's the first item demanded in a robbery. Even police stations come under attack in order to steal guns. It's not hard to get the drop on someone.

http://mg.co.za/article/2008-08-11-robbers-kill-two-police-officers-in-e-cape

And you've experianced this first hand or thought about it and think you'll need a gun?

My family fled from heavily armed men seeking to mass murder anyone they come in sight with. The last thing on my parents mind was a gun. It was food, water and first aid that kept them a live. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you will live. It'll actually draw more attention. At least that's what happen to the thousands of stories of the escape from communist rule. Those who had guns had the least amount of survival vs those who were quiet and stayed under the radar.

HBrebel
05-29-2012, 8:24 AM
with your small pistol you can acquire just about any weapon you may need if TSHTF.

Travis590A1
05-29-2012, 1:19 PM
I was only stating that if one doesnt have protection your good as dead. I can't be responsible for your assumption.

tacticalcity
05-29-2012, 3:16 PM
Let me ask you this. If you were a cop, and some idiot came up to you carrying an AR-15 and asked you to give him some of your ammo because it's the same caliber, would you?

--Inq

Serious lack of imagination for somebody with your username, bro. I expect a guy named Inquirer to be talking about aliens, zombies and thermonuclear war. Just teasing ya.

You would be picking your ammo up off the dead. Standard procedure when the supply chain is stressed beyond it's capabilities or when cut off from the supply chain completely. This is the main reason military units require all their troops to carry the same type of ammo and same type of weapons (with the standard exceptions of course). You should be storing enough ammo to handle a minor disaster. Therefore if you run out, it's because it truly hit the fan...and there will be plenty of dead soldiers, police, bad guys, etc. to use as a resupply. The only question is will the ammo you hopefully find on them work with your weapon. If not, better hope you have some experience using their weapon. If your weapon is something goofy, you won't be using it beyond the initial stages of the disaster. Eventually you will need to start using something scavenged off the dead. If the manual off arms is radically different than what you know and have trained with, your chances of surviving your next encounter drop significantly. Bear in mind, you are out of ammo so you've survived several by that point.

tacticalcity
05-29-2012, 3:30 PM
What country, Cambodia?

I think mif_slim has a point. If you are walking around with a long gun, you are a definite target for armed bands. Despite what happens in the movies, a lone rifleman doesn't usually stand much of a chance after being spotted by a larger armed force.

Maybe a concealed handgun would be more useful.

Many people on this forum seem unaware, but in places WROL firearms & ammo are themselves frequently targets of robbery. In South Africa, that's the first item demanded in a robbery. Even police stations come under attack in order to steal guns. It's not hard to get the drop on someone.

http://mg.co.za/article/2008-08-11-robbers-kill-two-police-officers-in-e-cape

A lone anything doesn't give you much of chance if things are that bad. Yes, the situation determines the tools used, but you want a very deep tool box too chose from. You may not be able to openly carry the rifle in every given situation, but that is no cause to decide not to have one.

If you need to bug out, and all law and order has eroded then you treat it the same way you would escape and evasion. You move at night, with as much cover as you can, away from main roads, towns, etc. You do not light fires or use a flash light. You avoid casting shadows or being silhouetted by the moonlight. When sleeping during the day you do so in a hide with maximized concealment, and cover if possible. Armed is always better than unarmed. The more firepower you bring to the fight the better. I would not intentionally leave the rifle behind if things are that bad. Air Force teaches a course in this. They run the school for the other branches of service.

Now, if I am back to needing to blend into a crowd and there is some kind of law and order, I am going to do my best to conceal the rifle or may if absolutely necessary leave it behind. But that is a last resort. There are many good concealment options if I need to pass through a town I could not bypass while bugging out. If all I need to do is go for a quick stroll to get supplies and things are shaky but law and order still exists then yes a handgun will suffice for that task. It is about using the right tool for the right job, and having a very deep tool box from which too choose.

LBDamned
05-29-2012, 3:40 PM
Armed is always better than unarmed.

nope, all you need is milk and cookies :D (according to some in this thread:p)

tacticalcity
05-29-2012, 3:47 PM
nope, all you need is milk and cookies :D (according to some in this thread:p)

Then they should change their screen names to Safeway and Walmart.

Charlie50
05-29-2012, 3:52 PM
Flawed logic I'm afraid. Here's why:

1) If you don't already have ammo when and if you actually need to discharge your weapon into the brain-hungry horde of undead, you aren't going to be finding any.

2) If a state of emergency is declared and you are spotted with a weapon, bad things could happen. At the very least, you'll be losing your firearms at the next check point, or during a search (including house to house), assuming you aren't just killed on sight for having a firearm.

3) For the reasons above, you aren't going to be "best buddies" with any LE or military attachment ordered into your area and they will not be sharing ammo or any other equipment with you. If water or medical supplies are running out, they are going to use it for their own.

4) "Battlefield pickups" aren't realistic, don't count on any. If the military, who will be considerably better armed, trained and equipped then the average citizen found themselves in a fire fight with Joe citizen and his AR15, Joe Citizen is not going to be on the winning side of that encounter. Once the smoke has cleared and the Darwin Award coordinator contacted, photographs will be taken of the scene and any other evidence collected before whisking the body to the morgue and collecting the weapon(s).

R

Yep the above post pretty much says it... low, low profile and pretty much a discrete sidearm with a mag of rounds will likely be fine.