View Full Version : The Only Semi-Auto Rifle Thread You'll Ever Need.

05-26-2012, 4:01 PM
This is a thread in progress. Feel Free to Rate. Comments and suggestions are now welcome. We're working on more details.



You doubtlessly have questions and, if this community is what I think it is, there are answers for you. But the odds are very, very VERY good that somebody else has asked the same exact question.

So we made this guide to help you on your way. First things first. There are some California-specific regulations that you have to deal with as a California rifle owner - the first of which relate to ALL RIFLES: a 30" Overall Length (OAL). That means UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES can your gun be under 30" from the end of the stock to the tip of the muzzle and still function (and by that, we mean still fire). The others pertain to what are called "Assault Weapon" features, which are give and take. But there are two major camps to get around these inconvenient stipulations. Your options, seeing as how you're a resident of California are down to a mere two - Magazine Locked or Featureless! Now, "What does that mean!?" you might ask.

Well, basically, Magazine Locks - or BULLET BUTTONS (remember that) enable you to fix your magazine in place so that you cannot detach it without the use of a tool, effectively rendering it a FIXED-magazine weapon and therefore not bound to the restrictions of Assault Weapon Features. A tool in this case is defined as anything not attached to your rifle - a bullet, a wrench, your miniscule *ahem*.. Nevermind.
You can see an example of it, and a Bullet-Buttoned Rifle, below.
As you can see, the magazine of the rifle is 10 rounds.

Your other option is, of course, FEATURELESS. This essentially means adding a GRIP FIN to your weapon, rendering it not a pistol gripped weapon, and removing things that would categorize your weapon as an ASSAULT WEAPON, such as a forward-mounted pistol grip, flash hider, etc. For more details on what the features are please check out our awesome FLOWCHART. The advantage to a featureless rifle is you can use the magazine release on your weapon, and you can use hi-capacity magazines if you have them in your possession. If you don't have them now, and didn't before 1999, you cannot have them. Don't ask how to get them. Some examples of featureless rifles follow.


So what'll it be, Pal?

BULLET BUTTON (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8649539&postcount=2)
FEATURELESS (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8649540&postcount=3)

OH, you say you already KNOW the difference between these two? Well, aren't you a smart feller... If you've already made your mind up between Featureless or a Bullet Button, you're probably wondering one of three things:
WHICH AR-15 YOU SHOULD GET. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8649549&postcount=4)
(http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8649552&postcount=5)WHICH ANYTHING ELSE YOU SHOULD GET. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8649555&postcount=6')

If you have questions about ACRONYMS, look HERE (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Dictionary_of_Terms_and_Acronyms).

05-26-2012, 4:01 PM
So, you picked the BULLET BUTTON route.
I guess you need your forward grip and your flash hider and your collapsible stock to egress out of Humvees in your back yard, eh? That's okay, Bullet Buttons (or BBs) are by far the most popular option for trading detachable magazines for **** you aren't going to use. Just kidding.

You can find tons of them here at Golden State Tactical (http://www.goldenstatetactical.com/bulletbutton1.html) for literally any rifle you're going to buy.

The cool part about this little gadget is it lets you use a bunch of Assault Weapon Features on your gun, and you can deck it out in ways that would make the most seasoned Mall Ninja blush. So you can make your gun look like this.

For a list of Assault Weapon features, read the following or check out our handy-dandy FLOWCHART (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf).


Pistol Grip
Forward Pistol Grip
Flash Suppressor
Folding/Collapsible Stock
Thumbhole Stock
Grenade or Flare Launcher

Now the question becomes, which gun are you going to buy?
WHICH AR-15 YOU SHOULD GET. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8649549&postcount=4)
(http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8649552&postcount=5)WHICH ANYTHING ELSE YOU SHOULD GET. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8649555&postcount=6')

05-26-2012, 4:02 PM
So, you decided to go FEATURELESS for your rifle. Well, aren't you dandy. Are you sure you didn't want to go with a Bullet Button instead? No? Great. Read on.

First things first. If you're wanting to go Featureless for your rifle, we need to ask you one thing: Are you SURE you want an AR- or AK-Pattern Weapon?

No, you're not. Here's the deal. There are plenty of ready-made, inherently Featureless rifles out there. This is not a definitive list, but here are some options for you.
In the Caliber of 5.56/.223, there are:
The Ruger Mini 14 (http://www.ruger.com/products/mini14/index.html)
The Kel-Tec SU-16CA (http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/su-16ca/)
In the Caliber of 7.62x39mm, there are:
The Saiga 7.62 (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/411535277)
The Ruger Mini-30 (http://www.ruger.com/products/miniThirty/models.html)
In the Caliber of .308 NATO, there are:
The Springfield M1A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1A_rifle)
The Saiga .308 (http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct455.aspx) The FN FNAR (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/79620-1.html)

Those are the three most commonly used calibers, so there are some other options if you're not tied to your AK or AR-looking rifle. Oh, you are? Well, then here's what you'll need.

If it's an AR:
You'll have to get a fixed stock, or pin your collapsible stock, and resist ANY AND ALL TEMPTATION TO HANG A PISTOL GRIP OFF YOUR RAIL SYSTEM(S). You'll also need a grip fin, Monsterman Grip, or California Rifles U15 Stock (or something else of the kind).

Grip Fins (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/5018511237_67f172d00f.jpg) are simply a piece of Kydex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kydex) wrapped and fixed to your Pistol Grip to prevent you from wrapping your thumb around it as your grip it. You can learn how to make them here (http://firearmsandtraining.blogspot.com/2012/04/make-your-own-non-wrap-around.html).

There are a few options as far as ready made grips go. There is, first and foremost, the Exile Machine Hammerhead Grip, which enables you to use your AR in a fashion most resembling the AR 15 but with a conventional hunting stock. You can find them at Exile Machine's Homepage (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/california-legal-52/). Monsterman Grip is a handy version of this that's built to AR-15 Spec So it's a Grip with a fin built in. You can buy them here (http://www.monstermangrip.com/).

A California Rifles (or similar) stock will integrate the grip fin, the grip, and the stock on your AR-15 pattern rifle. You can check them out, predictably, at www.californiarifles.com (http://californiarifles.com/).

So now you know how to render your rifle featureless. And just in time for the inevitable question - "WHICH RIFLE SHOULD I BUY?"
Truly, there is literally nothing we hear with more regularity than "I'm thinking of buyin an AR-15. Which one should I get?" If we're lucky, you'll say something smart like "I have XXX amount to spend" or "I'd prefer a 5.56 caliber, with a 20" barrel cause I'm going to use it for target practice." But you won't, because we're not. So dear reader, here's a little rundown on

WHICH AR-15 YOU SHOULD GET. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8649549&postcount=4)
(http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8649552&postcount=5)WHICH ANYTHING ELSE YOU SHOULD GET. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8649555&postcount=6')

Screwed up? Lost? Did you mean to pick a Bullet Button after all? You can go back to the top (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=576844) here, or go check out Bullet Buttons here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8649539&postcount=2).

05-26-2012, 4:04 PM

The answer is the one you can afford. But if you can afford a few, well, there are plenty of options. This should probably be its own thread, but I'm gonna try to get it in here.

05-26-2012, 4:04 PM

The answer, again, is the one you can afford. But unlike the AR-15, there are really only three options when it comes to acquiring your AK-Pattern Rifle.

You Can Buy One Ready-Made
You Can Convert a Saiga
You Can Build One from a Kit

Buying one ready made is, by far, the least hassle of the three. You're going to have to either buy it at a retailer locally, where it will almost assuredly been sold as a bullet-buttoned rifle with a 10 round magazine, or online and then shipped to your dealer. Either way you'll have to pay the DROS (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Dealer.2 7s_Record_of_Sale_.28DROS.29) (Dealer's Record of Sale), which is $25. If you buy it online, you'll likely be hit with another fee from the dealer to receive and handle your rifle (sometimes up to $75).
Arsenal - The most expensive. These ARE converted Saigas, but they are very well converted. They have a history of Anti-California policies, but they're great rifles and they now deal with California.
WASR - The cheapest entry of all, these are Romanian rifles reassembled by Century. They get a bad rap, but not bad if you look for the common defects and make sure you don't get one of these rifles with them. Issues include canted sights and "mag wobble", though mag wobble is normal in many AKs and not a serious problem.
IO/CASAR - Garbage. Don't buy these.
M10 Rifles - Relatively New, but really promising. Lots of good reports on these. They're Romanian rifles built from new parts, chrome-lined, hammer-forged barrel, nice grips, and a built in rail. Good buy.

When you buy a Saiga, it enters your house looking like this:
But when you convert it it looks like this:
You can accomplish this by buying a kit from a retailer like Carolina Shooters' Supply. They have a ton so you can mix and match parts or buy one of their premade kits (like this one! (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-890/WARSAW-dsh-8.5%22/Detail)) that include everything you need to convert your Saiga and customize it as you like.
Then just follow this video:

05-26-2012, 4:04 PM

The answer, once again, is the one you can afford. We'll give you a starting list in a bit, which will be expanded on as we go.

05-26-2012, 4:05 PM

05-26-2012, 4:05 PM

05-26-2012, 4:06 PM
Reservations Made Ahead

05-26-2012, 4:06 PM

05-26-2012, 4:06 PM
Piss off.

05-26-2012, 4:24 PM
This could be useful for a lot of the new guys. Good idea - this has the potential to become a sticky. :euro:

05-26-2012, 4:30 PM
the pictures will define this thread! :D

05-26-2012, 4:35 PM
Uber - good point. The pictures in this thread are NOT used by permission, so if anybody has some we can use please PM me or ZFields. Preferably me cause he's a crotchety old bastard. And if the images are yours and you'd like them taken down, just say so and I'd be happy to do so.

Side note: If you want to comment, feel free, or just PM your suggestion for now. Would be appreciated. Thanks!


Long Rifle
05-26-2012, 5:25 PM
I like where this is going. I vote for sticky. Well done. :D

r8dr rider
05-26-2012, 7:37 PM

05-26-2012, 9:41 PM
Weber is that a good picture or a bad picture? :D

05-26-2012, 9:51 PM

05-26-2012, 9:53 PM

05-26-2012, 11:14 PM
Benelli MR1 featureless

05-27-2012, 3:32 AM
None of the named WASR defects are actually defects, they are all cosmetic. And the m10 IS a wasr

05-27-2012, 7:18 AM
the first of which relate to ALL SEMIAUTOMATIC CENTERFIRE RIFLES: a 30" Overall Length (OAL). That means UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES can your gun be under 30" from the end of the stock to the tip of the muzzle and be functional.

Haven't gone past the first couple of lines, but fixed this one for you.

Thread looks great, nice layout and easy to read; but why re-invent the wheel? Consider starting off with the Wiki and take your information from there rather than re-write from scratch. The Wiki has be scrubbed and cleaned over time to eliminate simple errors like the ones above.

05-27-2012, 8:59 AM
Maybe add something like this: Don't worry about being "Tactical". Tactical accessories are added to increase the weapon's functionality in a perceived area of weakness. Start out very basic, find out what isn't working for you, and start changing things from there.
Most of the cool looking stuff will be of absolutely no use to you.

05-27-2012, 5:24 PM
I love it. Good job man. A couple quick comments:

*You forgot the Exile Machine grips for featureless. EM is an active forum member and supporter, and I kinda feel like it'd be crappy not to mention his product.

*As you get more into the various individual threads (AR/AK/Everything else), maybe you can link to the relevant Rifles Gallery threads? (Like the Featureless thread, etc).

*[Reserved as I think of things]

05-27-2012, 5:30 PM
Excellent. The flavor is not as dry as the wiki, I like the attitude. Consider proving the actual links for the flow chart and the wiki. Also please do one for shotguns as well and the aows...just saying, I like the format. And second the exile machine. I like the u-15, but don't think they are in current production..

05-28-2012, 12:00 AM
Thanks Freon. I'll add as I get time... Revising the featureless segment to show off the awesome contributions of CA-friendly shooting that I could never have thought of.


CC Gunsmithing
05-28-2012, 12:10 AM
Thank you for trying to make sense of nonsensical laws!