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View Full Version : How do we get fair weather firearm owners on our side?


Lagduf
05-24-2012, 9:30 PM
Folks, I've made the mistake of getting in to an argument on another firearms forum with a gun owner outside of California.

I'm getting the classic responses we all know so well:

"It's your own fault your laws suck - you voted the politicians in"
"We don't need to support California or any anti-gun bastion because 'Free America' has all the guns it needs."
"Just move out"

How do we get these fair weather firearm owners on our side?

It seems there are far too many gun owners who fail to realize that gun rights are civil rights. As someone with a firm (admittedly idealistic) belief in the United States as an institution it's very disturbing to see my fellow citizens basically not give a damn about our civil rights.

More then ever we need a unified base, and we're getting that in CA for sure, as well as in other states. It's just these knucklehead holdouts who seem content so long as they have "their guns."

How do they fail to realize once our guns are taken away that "their guns" will be next?

G60
05-24-2012, 9:36 PM
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

Lagduf
05-24-2012, 9:57 PM
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

Heh, I know, I know.

But really...how can we convince those firearm owners who are simply content with the laws in their state that we need their help, and support, in the fight now only for our rights but for their rights as well?

CapS
05-24-2012, 10:21 PM
Speaking only for myself,

Don't even bother. Those folks will just eat up our own valuable time and resources.

The battle is Here and Now.

Regards,

Cap :oji:

mag360
05-24-2012, 10:46 PM
without a long discussion, they won't realize that it is not fair for anyone to have to live under diminished civil rights. And I doubt any of the gun owners they are telling to "just move" voted for any of the numbskulls that have taken our rights away.

GOEX FFF
05-24-2012, 11:05 PM
Folks, I've made the mistake of getting in to an argument on another firearms forum with a gun owner outside of California.

I'm getting the classic responses we all know so well:

"It's your own fault your laws suck - you voted the politicians in"
"We don't need to support California or any anti-gun bastion because 'Free America' has all the guns it needs."
"Just move out"
<snip>

OP, what forum was this on?

My Responses would be below -

1. "It's your own fault your laws suck - you voted the politicians in"

I didn't vote for them. But using that logic, when Slick Willie Clinton passed the Federal Assault Weapon Ban, including the sale of new "hi-cap" magazines in 1994 that lasted 10 years, which most certaily effected your FREE state, then YOU were to blame for that too right? Even if of course you never voted for him......

2. We don't need to support California or any anti-gun bastion because 'Free America' has all the guns it needs,[/I]

(usually this statement comes from sellers who won't sell here)

You're complaining about our state having an anti-gun bastion, at the same time you're contributing to that same anti-gun bastion by driving the knife deeper into our backs by keeping firearms that are perfectly legal in CA out of the hands of fellow gun owners.

3. "Just move out"

If you're not part of fight for the solution, you're part of the problem (take additional note to this problem in response to #2)

selfshrevident
05-24-2012, 11:33 PM
They don't realize that places like CA are the testing grounds for BS. Coming to a theater near you! :7:

Lagduf
05-25-2012, 8:36 AM
Discussion was over on reddit. I was truly saddened to see a fellow firearm owner so completely content on the knowledge that millions of his fellow citizens' right to self defense were being infringed.

I know my personal friends out of state who own guns are onboard. They understand that gun rights are civil rights.

I will continue to educate who I can. For now I really just need to donate more to CGF.

m03
05-25-2012, 8:50 AM
Thoughts on responses:


"It's your own fault your laws suck - you voted the politicians in"

By that logic, the import ban and AWB were your own fault.

"We don't need to support California or any anti-gun bastion because 'Free America' has all the guns it needs."

Whatever happens here will eventually spread to the rest of the nation.

"Just move out"

It's better to stand and fight than run away like a coward.

tonelar
05-25-2012, 9:01 AM
Ya know. The rest of free america will change its tune come November. When Barry was first elected (& came along with a refreshed interest in the Federal AWB), a lot of our out of state gunnys were very interested in CA AWB work-arounds.

SamsDX
05-25-2012, 9:37 AM
When it comes to standing up for everyone's civil rights regardless of your current personal stake in it, the famous Martin Niemoller quote would be an appropriate citation:

First they came for the communists California gun owners,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist California gun owner.

Then they came for the trade unionists Washington, D.C. gun owners,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist Washington, D.C. gun owner.

Then they came for the Jews, Illinois gun owners
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew Illinois gun owner.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.


Don't think for a moment that harmful and restrictive regulations in California, D.C., New Jersey, New York, Illinois, will be contained there. Tyranny has a tendency to be voracious in its appetite for freedom.

stix213
05-25-2012, 9:43 AM
What starts in California usually spreads to other states. Living in CA is fighting on the front lines.

dustoff31
05-25-2012, 10:01 AM
How do we get these fair weather firearm owners on our side?

Well, the first thing you can do is stop blaming them for your problems.

Maybe you didn't vote for the anti-gun politicians, but they were elected nonetheless. They are your government, not someone else's. If you can't control them, just exactly what do you expect people in other states to do about it?

As to the nonsense about CA gun laws spreading to other states, well, that simply flies in the face of what has occurred, and is actually occurring on almost a daily basis.

shy 7th
05-25-2012, 10:02 AM
Telling us to move out of CA because we don't like the 2A climate is like telling a black man to move out of Alabama because he doesn't like the racism. They didn't gain their civil rights without the help of other states and neither will we.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_in_the_Schoolhouse_Door

Stonewalker
05-25-2012, 10:03 AM
By telling them that the VPC has called for a ban on any rifle that can be fitted with a scope. They call them sniper rifles. (http://daysofourtrailers.blogspot.com/2008/02/for-hunters-who-dont-believe-theyre-on.html)

ETA: Whoops, I should read more than just the title before posting! I'm gona go post this in the other fair weather gun owner thread :)
I hate talking to gun owners from other states who just talk **** about CA. They are a part of the problem.

radioburning
05-25-2012, 10:25 AM
I just point out how their brothers are here, out numbered, out gunned, and still winning battles....while all they're doing is kicking us while we're down.

Then I point out that once it happens here, it can slowly start moving their way...

motorhead
05-25-2012, 10:27 AM
a waste of time and energy. the vast majority of gun owners in free states are on our side. the vocal minority mentioned will never be convinced. ignore them.

BigDogatPlay
05-25-2012, 10:49 AM
^^^ This ^^^

There are any number of gun owners here in California who are either ignorant or are simply complacent. I would expect the "fair weather" types in "free states" to be a large piece of both of those.

Ignorance can be trained away so long as the subject being trained is willing to learn.

Complacency kills, and your cause is already dead before the complacent wake up to the danger.

Cylarz
05-25-2012, 6:03 PM
I love the way gun owners in states like Texas and Utah and North Dakota can just casually tell California gun owners to "move." Like it's that easy to just sell your house in a buyer's market, quit your job in this rotten economy, pick up, and head to another state, leaving behind your relatives and lifelong friends. I've also heard many California gun owners point out that they've been living here since the days it was actually a reliably conservative state (40 years ago or so) and don't feel they should have to leave just because a bunch of relative newcomers have tried to ruin it.

It's great that gun rights are on the march in so many other parts of the country (at least if my NRA-ILA mailings are any indication), but that doesn't mean it's all well in good out here. I wonder if we could achieve any sense of solidarity with gun owners who live in other restrictive states - NY, NJ, MA, IL, HI, Washington DC...? Maybe they'd be more sympathetic than the ones who live in deep-red states.

monk
05-25-2012, 6:16 PM
I just call them cowards for running away from a fight.

Paladin
05-25-2012, 10:27 PM
Once/If we win Shall Issue and it makes the MSM, you will find a LOT of folks who just own a gun or two for home protection will get a LOT more interested in guns and gun rights. They now have a practical reason to think about guns, buying carry guns, and going to the range.

Even folks (I'll stereotype -- women), who aren't antis, but aren't active on our side (e.g., her husband has guns at home for defense, but she primarily counts on him for defense at home), will now have a reason to take it up themselves (i.e., she'll want to get a gun to carry to protect herself when she's out on her own).

Folks who are on the fence, don't own guns, but are reasonable, will have their interest piqued and look into concealed carry online and will see that 41 out of 50 states have had no problems, and will slowly be drawn to our side. Once they get a gun and shoot a few times, a good portion of them will be open to other shooting activities and maybe even EBRs....

Concealed Carry is our gateway drug.... :43:

CDFingers
05-26-2012, 5:58 AM
When CA gun owners properly equate gun rights with civil rights, then other states will be on our side. Until then, we have to show that to be the case.

CDFingers

Write Winger
05-26-2012, 6:56 AM
Just tell them why you stay and fight, what you're fighting for, who you're fighting against, and what it means to you for their support. Ppl like passion.

SanPedroShooter
05-26-2012, 7:55 AM
The best way to get anyone to do anything. Appeal to their selfishness.

Make the issue about them and their inerests. Selfishness can be a virtue if used properly. Every organizism on earth acts of out self interest.

We just need to align their self interest with our goals.

Merovign
05-27-2012, 12:58 PM
How do they fail to realize once our guns are taken away that "their guns" will be next?

Just tell them that.

We have a word for people who abandon territory - "next."

Also, point out we may be 60% blue - Hawaii is 75%, Massachusetts, New York, half a dozen more Eastern states...

But Texas is 45% blue. Nevada has a powerful leftist senator. Utah is a pretty purple state. There isn't a state that doesn't have leftists. And California wasn't always to the left - those people moved here, and they can move back.

So if Nevada is next, will they run away from Nevada? How about Texas? What happens when the only red states

I'm still in shock, after having these arguments for years, that so many people who think of themselves as "red-blooded free Americans" are so eager to abandon territory, it's bonkers.

AVS
05-27-2012, 4:22 PM
Discussion was over on reddit.

There's your answer. It's Reddit. They're a circle-jerk with a bully culture problem. Tell them you're sorry they don't understand, walk away, and ignore them.

EDIT: I'm assuming this is the thread...

http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/u1ov3/why_arent_we_trying_to_stop_yee/

Dreaded Claymore
05-27-2012, 4:36 PM
Just tell them that.

We have a word for people who abandon territory - "next."

Also, point out we may be 60% blue - Hawaii is 75%, Massachusetts, New York, half a dozen more Eastern states...

But Texas is 45% blue. Nevada has a powerful leftist senator. Utah is a pretty purple state. There isn't a state that doesn't have leftists.

I wouldn't call myself a "leftist," but I'm pretty liberal. And I vigorously support the human right of armed self-defense. Framing this debate as liberal vs. conservative hurts are cause, and for that matter it also hurts liberals.

And California wasn't always to the left - those people moved here, and they can move back.

Actually, they can't. Most of them are immigrants from nations across the Pacific. They'll never move back.

ModernMusket
05-27-2012, 9:29 PM
On my facebook page I simply tell them that, "If federal legislation is passed than it wont matter which state you reside in." Then I remind them that there was a federal "assault weapons" ban for a 10 year period. It is frustrating that some people are willing to hang CA out to dry. We need to fight against these state level laws, then we wont have to worry about them becoming federal laws. -MM

The Original Godfather
05-27-2012, 11:34 PM
The OP's sentiment reminds me of a quote I read when studying the Holocaust:


"When they came for the Gypsies, we said to ourselves, 'The Gypsies will take care of themselves.'

When they came for the Poles, we said, 'The Poles will come to help their people.'

And when they came for us Jews, no one was left to come help."

Termless
05-27-2012, 11:42 PM
The OP's sentiment reminds me of a quote I read when studying the Holocaust:


"When they came for the Gypsies, we said to ourselves, 'The Gypsies will take care of themselves.'

When they came for the Poles, we said, 'The Poles will come to help their people.'

And when they came for us Jews, no one was left to come help."

Thats some crazy quote. Who said that if you know?

The Original Godfather
05-28-2012, 6:13 PM
Thats some crazy quote. Who said that if you know?

Honestly, I can't remember. I think I may have read it in a text book. This was about 8 years ago. If I had to take a stab at it, I would say it was a quote written by a Jew in one of the ghettos in a diary or postwar interview.

Definitely makes you think though. To this day, that quote is in ingrained in my memory...

rimfire78
05-28-2012, 6:18 PM
On Friday I asked two of my gun owning co-workers for their addresses so I could sign them up for the NRA. I told them about all the great discounts and insurance they could get.
One of them texted me yesterday to tell me he had joined and needed to know which magazine to subscribe to.

There's one.

The Original Godfather
05-28-2012, 6:29 PM
^ Awesome! :)


If they're married, sign up the spouse too.

JSolie
05-28-2012, 8:35 PM
How do we get these fair weather firearm owners on our side?

"Well, guys, once they finish with this state, they're heading your way. I guess you won't mind if your calls for help fall on deaf ears..."

"Ever heard of a story called 'The Little Red Hen?'"

"You snooze, you lose."

NIDDLE
05-28-2012, 8:37 PM
Hi all. I wouldn't call myself a "fair weather gun owner", maybe just new/not all that informed or up on what's going on. After reading this thread and another like it I was moved by what I was reading to get in the fight with the rest. I would like to keep my rights intact, be it 2a or freedom of speech. Once one goes they will all start to follow. Donated to CGF and joined NRA, will continue to as funds permit. Thanks!

Quser.619
05-28-2012, 8:54 PM
I don't take offense when CA is belittled. Our laws are ridiculous, not just our gun laws. Both of our Senators absolutely lie about guns. It does hurt, because in a way they are right. However, I always say that it will CA & other anti2A states/cities that will be where the 2a is actually strengthened.

Drivedabizness
05-28-2012, 9:18 PM
Remember that in the vast majority of states, people simply can't comprehend the level of F'd up CA has become.

What was once envy has, over the last 30 years or so, become derision. I am not surprised that one might hear a whiff of "you made your own bed, lie in it". Especially as our leaders continue to try and set the agenda on so many issues (see vehicle and later carbon emissions, land use, allowing government unions naked use of power and millions of foreign nationals to pitch camp and latch onto the public teat, to name just a few).

Right or wrong, many of our fellow citizens feel we have the government we deserve.

As a people - it IS our fault. Californians want to be enlightened, and fair and generous. No one wants to be branded as mean and ungenerous.

Most of us spend so much time trying to make a better life for ourselves and our kids that we focus on that to the detriment of the vigilance good self government requires.

I despair in that I sometimes feel too many of my fellow Californians lack the fortitude to demand better government. But maybe we can make it happen, one issue at a time.

sakosf
05-29-2012, 11:17 AM
The trend of the changing demographics of California does not bode well for us.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/ca/california_romney_vs_obama-2009.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/2012_elections_electoral_college_map.html

berto
05-29-2012, 11:41 AM
The trend of the changing demographics of California does not bode well for us.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/ca/california_romney_vs_obama-2009.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/2012_elections_electoral_college_map.html

The question is how we react to the demographic shift? Becoming more insular ain't the answer. Move the 2A fight away from the old white male conservative demographic. There's no reason those who identify as democrats, greens, independents, etc. need be seen as anti-2A. The 2A fight is a fight for fundamental civil rights with natural allies across the spectrum whether they own guns or not. Insisting that it's a conservative republican issue and those on the right are our only base of support is part of the reason we're in the hole we're in. We need to stop polluting 2A issues with unrelated stuff.

curtisfong
05-29-2012, 12:44 PM
Becoming more insular ain't the answer.

Nobody wants to hear this reality.

Dreaded Claymore
05-29-2012, 1:55 PM
Nobody wants to hear this reality.

Except, y'know, me. And a lot of other people on Calguns. Like Steyrlp10 who is not an old white male.

sakosf
05-29-2012, 3:04 PM
The problem is the type of politician the changing demographic votes for is very often not a friend of gun owners. There are exceptions of course

Lagduf
05-29-2012, 3:09 PM
Hi all. I wouldn't call myself a "fair weather gun owner", maybe just new/not all that informed or up on what's going on. After reading this thread and another like it I was moved by what I was reading to get in the fight with the rest. I would like to keep my rights intact, be it 2a or freedom of speech. Once one goes they will all start to follow. Donated to CGF and joined NRA, will continue to as funds permit. Thanks!

Truly, thank you.

berto
05-29-2012, 3:32 PM
The problem is the type of politician the changing demographic votes for is very often not a friend of gun owners. There are exceptions of course

Correct, but what's to stop our side from supporting pro-2A dems? We've allowed perception to become reality, our cause to be taken for granted, and we continue to keep digging our hole deeper.

The new primary system, where the top two candidates regardless of party advance, might yield positive results if we're willing to drop the right/left dogma in favor of (civil)right/wrong. Republicans have zero shot in most urban districts but a dem who favors 2A rights can advance to run against an anti dem in the general election. There will always be high hurdles in bucking the party and challenging an incumbent but there will be spots where it's possible to elect a pro-2A dem if our side is willing to get on board. I'm not fond of sending another tax and spend progressive to Sac. but reality in my district is it's going to happen regardless so I ought to get something out of it. We really don't have any other options outside of court.

TTT
05-29-2012, 6:43 PM
Well, the first thing you can do is stop blaming them for your problems.

Maybe you didn't vote for the anti-gun politicians, but they were elected nonetheless. They are your government, not someone else's. If you can't control them, just exactly what do you expect people in other states to do about it?

As to the nonsense about CA gun laws spreading to other states, well, that simply flies in the face of what has occurred, and is actually occurring on almost a daily basis.

Wow, never thought I would see reality intrude into the CG echo chamber. Nice.