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hoffmang
05-24-2012, 7:53 PM
Late today, Trademark counsel for SaveCRPA responded (http://hoffmang.com/firearms/crpa-board/CRPA-TM-C+D-Response-2012-05-24.pdf) to CRPA's legal threat (http://www.savecrpa.org/files/crpa_savecrpa_cease_desist_051412.pdf) against the free speech of members and board members who want CRPA to adopt the same democratic principles that NRA uses.

Counsel expressed the intent of the loose association that is the SaveCRPA project that we'd happily accept a ballot of the members on whether CRPA should adopt NRA's board nomination, petition, and election procedures as a way to settle this dispute.

-Gene

Ubermcoupe
05-24-2012, 8:15 PM
Nice.

OleCuss
05-24-2012, 8:19 PM
I quite enjoyed the response.

Zebra
05-24-2012, 8:19 PM
That's pretty funny...
:tt2:In my view your analysis of the situation here and your attempt to apply the inapplicable Federal Lanham Act in an effort to find some kind of imaginary liability for exercising constitutionally protected rights could not be further off base.Late today, Trademark counsel for SaveCRPA responded (http://hoffmang.com/firearms/crpa-board/CRPA-TM-C+D-Response-2012-05-24.pdf) to CRPA's legal threat (http://www.savecrpa.org/files/crpa_savecrpa_cease_desist_051412.pdf) against the free speech of members and board members who want CRPA to adopt the same democratic principles that NRA uses.

Counsel expressed the intent of the loose association that is the SaveCRPA project that we'd happily accept a ballot of the members on whether CRPA should adopt NRA's board nomination, petition, and election procedures as a way to settle this dispute.

-Gene

NoJoke
05-24-2012, 8:20 PM
:beer::beer:

That's a solution that will help everyone in the room - and in no uncertain terms!

dsmoot
05-24-2012, 8:22 PM
Haha, I love the last paragraph basically telling them to put it to a vote!

SWalt
05-24-2012, 8:30 PM
As a CRPA member, a vote seems very appropriate.

rromeo
05-24-2012, 8:33 PM
This is a problem the competing 2nd Amendment organization the CalGuns Foundation,
The two groups aren't competing, they're working for the same goal.

XDShocker
05-24-2012, 8:38 PM
Where's the steamroller pic when we need it?

Fjold
05-24-2012, 8:41 PM
Wouldn't it have been simpler to just write "You're stupid.", and then add the last paragraph about the vote?

JSolie
05-24-2012, 8:54 PM
Hmm.... Depending on response, I might have to change the opacity in my sig line...

hoffmang
05-24-2012, 8:55 PM
Wouldn't it have been simpler to just write "You're stupid.", and then add the last paragraph about the vote?

Yes, but unfortunately since there is no actual need to be accomplished to get appointed to the CRPA board, a lot of CRPA board members don't have the first clue about trademark law and therefor have a hard time judging how stupid the sending of the letter is.

But, that's just a circular irony about the lack of competence of almost all of the CRPA board...

-Gene

nicki
05-24-2012, 9:17 PM
The CRPA does have a state wide brand that can reach out to many of the older gun owners, particularily those who spend little, if any time on the internet.

A workable Calguns/CRPA alliance is something were we all win

Together
Everyone
Achieves
More

Calguns reaches a younger more diverse base.
CRPA reaches the older seasoned gun owners.

Each group can help each other in many ways that these ****ing contest is just what we didn't need.

Frankly, if we are going to **** on someone, there are plenty of groups and individuals working against our rights that all people on our side should agree to **** on together.

Together let's give our opponents the "Golden Showers" they deserve.;)

Nicki

wildhawker
05-24-2012, 9:21 PM
Nicki,

Sometimes doing what is right is uncomfortable. I'm sure you understand how uncomfortable living the truth can be.

-Brandon

greasemonkey
05-24-2012, 10:02 PM
Nicki, regarding working as a team, there's a quote from the CRPA's C&D letter that *should* stand out as painfully obvious. Rromeo picked up on it, noted above.

Unfortunately, the CRPA sees anyone else as competition instead of a multi-faceted team (you know, like CGF & SAF have been doing?). That is detrimental to our rights. When there are people in a civil rights movement who are backstabbing and seeking prestige, that's a problem that needs to be dealt with, not embraced.
the competing 2nd Amendment organization the CalGuns Foundation,

Fish
05-24-2012, 10:06 PM
Yes, these CRPA guys seem like a bunch of idiots. I'm not an attorney, but even I would know enough to laugh if I got a cease-and-desist like that. (I'd call up my attorney and confirm that I was right to laugh, but I'd be confident enough to laugh first.)


Gene, Brandon, here's what I don't get:

Why is fighting this battle the best use of your time and effort? Aren't your considerable talents better employed in any of the many current legal actions we have going? Improving community outreach? Crafting positive PR for gun rights?

I ask this question in all seriousness: I fully realize that you have information I do not, and so it's entirely possible, likely even, that there's an excellent reason and I simply don't know what it is. I figured that the savecrpa.org website might have this information, but it's pretty long on blow-by-blow documentation of the fight and a bit thin on the question of why.

The only complaint I've heard so far is that CRPA could make better use of the resources at its disposal to further Second Amendment rights, which it almost certainly could, but one has to ask oneself if the resources that will be expended in this internecine warfare will negate any realistic advantage that would come from winning it.

There are times in life when one stands down and walks away, not in spite of the fact that one is the bigger man, but *because* one is the bigger man. There is nothing you need to prove here, and certainly not to those yahoos. Why is this not such a time?

Jason P
05-24-2012, 10:15 PM
The issue with saving CRPA is that the membership and resources are already in place to be massively effective. With proper leadership and accountability, CRPA could make a SUBSTANTIAL difference in California. Much easier and faster than building a new .org.

You don't just throw away a new Porsche because it's got a dirty windshield. You just clean the bird crap off the glass and then the passengers can see where they're going.

Zebra
05-24-2012, 10:43 PM
I think it's more like a blown head gasket and a rusted out frame...

The issue with saving CRPA is that the membership and resources are already in place to be massively effective. With proper leadership and accountability, CRPA could make a SUBSTANTIAL difference in California. Much easier and faster than building a new .org.

You don't just throw away a new Porsche because it's got a dirty windshield. You just clean the bird crap off the glass and then the passengers can see where they're going.

hoffmang
05-24-2012, 10:46 PM
Why is fighting this battle the best use of your time and effort? Aren't your considerable talents better employed in any of the many current legal actions we have going? Improving community outreach? Crafting positive PR for gun rights?

First, (and I think I can speak for the others, but they'll pop up where the disagree) we agree with the sentiment of your point. It's a damn shame we have to deal with the level of incompetence CRPA is saddled with as we really do have better things to do for all of us over the shorter run.

But to answer your question, there are three very serious reasons we think this is a fight worth having. First, CRPA is the lobbying, and electioneering organization. Through our efforts we were able to get a horrible lobbyist who worked at cross purposes to the NRA and we member's best interest in Sacramento dismissed and replaced with a guy who is an absolute team player and a stand up guy. However, and this is the second part, no structural change has been made to CRPA to keep it accountable to it's members. As such, when the excellent Tom Pederson reaches the end of what looks to be a very good run - and that's not as long in the future as many of us would like - this incompetent leadership team and their appointed and not elected future incompetents will chose the next lobbyist...

Third, and finally, CGF, heck even my involvement in the gun rights fight, is designed to end when much of the major issues are off the table. As such, we all deserve a professional, courteous, and effective state organization to fight the ends of the never ending battle to protect our right to keep and bear arms. CRPA has and will continue to claim credibility and in some ways fraudulently suck the un-educated gun owner in. We think that instead of limping along and being actually a burden on those of us actually doing the work to get you more guns and more licenses and easier living as a gun owner that CRPA has the assets to become an actual useful service provider to we, the members.

It just requires accountability of the officers, executive committee, and board to the members. The members need to know that CRPA can never get as far off the rails as it did, and that if it does, it can be brought back by a concerted effort of the members.

Winning civil rights battles often requires reform in your own community. As I've said elsewhere, when King sought to change America, one of the key things he had to change was his own co-clergy first. See his Letter from a Birmingham Jail (http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html).

I hope that is a serious enough answer to shed some light on why we even care.

-Gene

Fish
05-24-2012, 10:52 PM
The issue with saving CRPA is that the membership and resources are already in place to be massively effective. With proper leadership and accountability, CRPA could make a SUBSTANTIAL difference in California. Much easier and faster than building a new .org.

You don't just throw away a new Porsche because it's got a dirty windshield. You just clean the bird crap off the glass and then the passengers can see where they're going.

Is this a dirty windshield, or a bent frame? Is CRPA savable, or irredeemably busted? It appears that they have a membership who apparently won't hold them accountable in addition to a governance structure that makes that difficult. So the ones who are interested in holding them accountable are voting with their feet, which just leaves a larger fraction who aren't.

I understand what you're saying. Sure, there's an awesome amount of potential in an organization that big, and it could be a force to be reckoned with for Second Amendment rights if it only had leadership with the vision and competence. But you know what? "If only" is just that: hypothetical, contrary to fact. We wouldn't even need to have this discussion "if only" the anti-gun crowd would wake up tomorrow morning and see the error of their ways.

I can't predict the future. Maybe this is the best strategy. But fighting a natural ally, or even a friendly neutral, when we have large and powerful enemies is rarely a smart move.

hoffmang
05-24-2012, 10:59 PM
It appears that they have a membership who apparently won't hold them accountable in addition to a governance structure that makes that difficult. So the ones who are interested in holding them accountable are voting with their feet, which just leaves a larger fraction who aren't.

Not so. The membership have no way to hold them accountable beyond the public shaming (and maybe a couple other tricks up our sleeves) and voting with their feet. IIRC they had 50K members so they claimed in a court filing in approximately 2004 and have fallen to 28K as of the last annual meeting. A really large portion of the remaining members are life members where it's more work to leave than it is to do nothing and be counted as a member. As such, California gun people are voting with their feet...

-Gene

jdberger
05-24-2012, 11:10 PM
Fish,

The membership doesn't have any sort of vote.

None.
Zip.
Nada.

taperxz
05-24-2012, 11:17 PM
Very nice, FACTUAL, professional response to CRPA.

taperxz
05-24-2012, 11:20 PM
Can I assume that CGN and the Gene Team have resolved SOME of the issues since the thread has been left unscathed? I sure hope so.

Kestryll
05-24-2012, 11:32 PM
Can I assume that CGN and the Gene Team have resolved SOME of the issues since the thread has been left unscathed? I sure hope so.

Resolved or not there is nothing wrong with this thread so no reason to have a problem.

CRPA sent their C&D and this is Gene and the others response to it.

I think the C&D was an ill advised act so if they get spanked a bit well, they asked for it.

taperxz
05-24-2012, 11:35 PM
Resolved or not there is nothing wrong with this thread so no reason to have a problem.

CRPA sent their C&D and this is Gene and the others response to it.

I think the C&D was an ill advised act so if they get spanked a bit well, they asked for it.


;). Right on :)

Fish
05-24-2012, 11:42 PM
It appears we were composing our posts simultaneously, Gene. Thanks for your well-considered responses.


when the excellent Tom Pederson reaches the end of what looks to be a very good run - and that's not as long in the future as many of us would like - this incompetent leadership team and their appointed and not elected future incompetents will chose the next lobbyist...


Keeping Tom Pederson around sounds like an excellent reason. Are there other ways we can solve that problem?


The membership have no way to hold them accountable beyond the public shaming (and maybe a couple other tricks up our sleeves) and voting with their feet. IIRC they had 50K members so they claimed in a court filing in approximately 2004 and have fallen to 28K as of the last annual meeting. A really large portion of the remaining members are life members where it's more work to leave than it is to do nothing and be counted as a member. As such, California gun people are voting with their feet...


So another option, then, is to stand back and let the whole thing collapse under its own weight, or at least turn into a rump of its former self. A shame, certainly, but perhaps the best of all the bad options?


Third, and finally, CGF, heck even my involvement in the gun rights fight, is designed to end when much of the major issues are off the table.


While I appreciate the thought that you will retire when your work is done, a citizen statesman in the classical tradition, I think you're being a bit optimistic: The firearm rights fight will never be over. The belief that collective action is intrinsically benign and individual empowerment dangerous is far too seductive ever to be without adherents. I was recently entertained by a newspaper editorial from the late 19th century about a new revolver and how its "quick action" was obviously far too potentially devastating to be allowed into the hands of the general public. There have always been people who think that way, and there always will be.

This is eternal vigilance. It is the price of freedom.


(... and, I might add, it is a price of which you are paying a disproportionate share, while between career and family most of us, myself included, can barely find time for the occasional Internet posting. You have my heartfelt gratitude.)

Apocalypsenerd
05-25-2012, 12:01 AM
Third, and finally, CGF, heck even my involvement in the gun rights fight, is designed to end when much of the major issues are off the table.

-Gene

You folks might see an end to this fight, but my crystal ball says otherwise. You may see a final, crushing defeat for those on the wrong side of it, but historically speaking, the argument pre-dates the Republic. Free people are going to need guys like you LONG after we are in the ground.

I hope that you will take the time to groom another generation of legal eagles before the fatigue of this endeavor pushes you on to other things.

hoffmang
05-25-2012, 12:13 AM
Keeping Tom Pederson around sounds like an excellent reason. Are there other ways we can solve that problem?
Sadly, not really. If you're familiar with how crows respond to shiny objects, politics is shiny to incompetents playing at being "gun rights supporters." As such, the unelected "leadership" realizes they have even more of nothing to sell when they're trying to convince you to pay your money to them if they don't have a lobbyist. I hope that Tom continues to enjoy his second career here and I'm sure he's here for quite a few more years, but we have to be realistic that he may want to actually re-retire at some point.

So another option, then, is to stand back and let the whole thing collapse under its own weight, or at least turn into a rump of its former self. A shame, certainly, but perhaps the best of all the bad options? That may be the ultimate irony here. Incompetents hold onto a death grip so strongly to retain their prestige that the are actually undermining it. I'd prefer better, but if that's what it takes to get them to a point where they can't hire Barney Fife to replace their current lobbyist when he retires because they can't afford it... So be it.




While I appreciate the thought that you will retire when your work is done, a citizen statesman in the classical tradition, I think you're being a bit optimistic: The firearm rights fight will never be over.

This is eternal vigilance. It is the price of freedom.
I have to disagree and agree. On the former point, I will move on. Mark my words here. I have about 4 more issues I want to see put to bed and I'm a realist that there will be some cleanup around them that I'd like to make sure gets done well. However, I do feel that, like the African American Civil Rights movement, the movement to restore the 2nd and 14th amendment will reach our "1980's" faster than they were able to. On the latter, I fully agree this fight will always go on, but when carry, ARs and AKs, buying guns, and some of the quality of gun owner life issues get dealt with at the appellate or Supreme Court level, the field becomes ripe so even the average gun lawyers and gun rights supporters have the tools and infrastructure to win in the ongoing fight.

At that point, I feel there are other items in the Bill of Rights that need my attention.

I want CRPA to be strong, functional, and accountable before I make that decision and transition.


(... and, I might add, it is a price of which you are paying a disproportionate share, while between career and family most of us, myself included, can barely find time for the occasional Internet posting. You have my heartfelt gratitude.)
Thank you.

-Gene

wildhawker
05-25-2012, 12:22 AM
At least crows are attracted to shiny objects because they're highly-intelligent and know how to amuse themselves.

CRPA executives' attraction to politics is possibly closer to a really drunk driver and oncoming headlights. The problem we have to fix is that it's not the driver who'll be killed in the likely collision, but the CRPA members who are in the back seat because the authoritarian drunkard won't let them steer the car.

-Brandon

kcbrown
05-25-2012, 12:30 AM
Not so. The membership have no way to hold them accountable beyond the public shaming (and maybe a couple other tricks up our sleeves) and voting with their feet. IIRC they had 50K members so they claimed in a court filing in approximately 2004 and have fallen to 28K as of the last annual meeting. A really large portion of the remaining members are life members where it's more work to leave than it is to do nothing and be counted as a member. As such, California gun people are voting with their feet...


Yes, but that's his point. California gun people are voting with their feet. The people that remain are either lifetime members (as you indicate) or are not really in the organization for their rights at all.

The real question is: which of the two classes of people above is dominant?


Also, I like the suggestion of what should be put to a vote, but beware that how it's put to a vote is just as important as that it's put to a vote. And I am deeply wary of the CRPA leadership's honesty on that.

kcbrown
05-25-2012, 12:32 AM
(... and, I might add, it is a price of which you are paying a disproportionate share, while between career and family most of us, myself included, can barely find time for the occasional Internet posting. You have my heartfelt gratitude.)

Seconded, thirded, etc., however many times the rest of you will let me!

kcbrown
05-25-2012, 12:34 AM
CRPA executives' attraction to politics is possibly closer to a really drunk driver and oncoming headlights.

Oh, the multiple interpretations of this that are all valid at the same time make this statement all the more impressive.

To wit, drunk on power...

thedrickel
05-25-2012, 1:00 AM
Well since everybody is airing their dirty laundry . . . I have a bone to pick with Gene.

Your title says you are not a moderator . . . but if I click on this page

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showgroups.php

You are clearly listed under the category of "Moderators" . . . ! How can we trust a guy who states such prominent untruths?


















:hide:

G60
05-25-2012, 1:08 AM
There are a bunch of people who aren't moderators that are in that group.

They could make a group called "Martians" but it would not make them so.

bwiese
05-25-2012, 1:27 AM
The issue with saving CRPA is that the membership and resources are already in place to be massively effective. With proper leadership and accountability, CRPA could make a SUBSTANTIAL difference in California. Much easier and faster than building a new .org.

You don't just throw away a new Porsche because it's got a dirty windshield. You just clean the bird crap off the glass and then the passengers can see where they're going.

AGREE 100%.

The goal is not to take away from, but to 'kick into gear'.

hoffmang
05-25-2012, 1:32 AM
Well since everybody is airing their dirty laundry . . . I have a bone to pick with Gene.

Your title says you are not a moderator . . . but if I click on this page

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showgroups.php

You are clearly listed under the category of "Moderators" . . . ! How can we trust a guy who states such prominent untruths?
:hide:

Heh. I'm a moderator in only the LTC subforums. Kes/Paul slapped that on there to help cut down on people asking me to do mod things thinking this was my site.

-Gene

GOEX FFF
05-25-2012, 4:20 AM
Since CRPA have already sacrificed us pawns (members) as low valued players in this game........

SaveCRPA.org moves Queen to Rook 4 = "Check" CRPA

fiddletown
05-25-2012, 12:50 PM
...Is CRPA savable, or irredeemably busted? ...As far as that goes, I think the CRPA is savable and worth trying to save.

Remember, it's a corporation, and as a corporation it has an existence independent of its management. It also has intangible assets in the nature of name recognition and goodwill.

While its existing management and core governance documents might leave a lot to be desired, those things can be changed. We have a good model for a more functional corporate organization, and there are many smart and capable CRPA members who could turn the organization around.

I think there is an opportunity to resuscitate CRPA as an effective, California RKBA organization, and that opportunity is worth pursuing.

wash
05-25-2012, 2:02 PM
Heh. I'm a moderator in only the LTC subforums. Kes/Paul slapped that on there to help cut down on people asking me to do mod things thinking this was my site.

-Gene
Ban him Gene!

MindBuilder
05-25-2012, 3:30 PM
It seems like a more effective way to pressure CRPA into allowing elections is through the NRA. If the NRA threatens to withdraw its stamp of approval for the CRPA, then the CRPA would be much more likely to listen. The NRA can also print a cover story on the California version of its magazine letting CRPA members know that they need to threaten to resign from the CRPA if elections aren't held. If the NRA won't help us out here, then its a good thing the NRA does have elections. Why hasn't the NRA put pressure on already?

berto
05-25-2012, 3:57 PM
It seems like a more effective way to pressure CRPA into allowing elections is through the NRA. If the NRA threatens to withdraw its stamp of approval for the CRPA, then the CRPA would be much more likely to listen. The NRA can also print a cover story on the California version of its magazine letting CRPA members know that they need to threaten to resign from the CRPA if elections aren't held. If the NRA won't help us out here, then its a good thing the NRA does have elections. Why hasn't the NRA put pressure on already?

Indifference? Money?

greasemonkey
05-25-2012, 5:23 PM
As far as that goes, I think the CRPA is savable and worth trying to save.

Remember, it's a corporation, and as a corporation it has an existence independent of its management. It also has intangible assets in the nature of name recognition and goodwill.

While its existing management and core governance documents might leave a lot to be desired, those things can be changed. We have a good model for a more functional corporate organization, and there are many smart and capable CRPA members who could turn the organization around.

I think there is an opportunity to resuscitate CRPA as an effective, California RKBA organization, and that opportunity is worth pursuing.

It's possible to save the CRPA and it would sure be nice to see them become a healthy, proactive organization. Can you imagine the potential of a $1-Mil/yr healthy organization working in coordination with SAF/CGF/CRPA-F?? We would be able to decimate (legally) the careers of those in opposition to freedom.

But then there's reality. As long as the inner circle of self-appointed BoD's remain intact, with no way for we the voting members to have any say or impact in how they operate OUR organization, they will continue to be the festering sore that they are. The way it looks now, after this ridiculous C&D letter is that it's going to have to take the inner circle surrendering their 'au-thor-i-tay' and prestige or they're going to have to proudly command the Titanic to the ocean floor, potentially damaging our rights and certainly damaging the 2A community as a whole.

NoJoke
05-30-2012, 5:59 PM
Just got this email, an opportunity to talk directly to the executive director and board members:

Come join the California Rifle and Pistol Association at the Turner's Outdoorsman Shooting Sports Fair!

The CRPA will have an active presence at the Turner's Outdoorsman Shooting Sports Fair in Corona on Friday, June 1st from 12 PM to 6 PM, Saturday, June 2nd from 10 AM to 6 PM and Sunday, June 3rd from 10 AM to 5 PM. The Association will have a membership/information booth at the main entrance and will be cosponsoring a youth shooting line with our partners: The NRA, 'Calguns.net,' 'the Appleseed Project' and 'Turner's Outdoorsman.'

Here's your chance to renew or upgrade your membership, ask questions and interact with the people who run your organization on your behalf; including Executive Director John Fields, Association officers and members of the Board of Directors.

This is one of the premier shooting events in Southern California and is a great opportunity to go 'hands-on' with the latest in guns and gear!

Hope to see you there!

Location: Raahagues Shooting Enterprises
Click for Map: 14995 River Rd., Corona, CA 92880

Visit the Turner's Outdoorsman website for more information here (http://www.turners.com/engage/events_sportsfair2012.php).

vincewarde
05-31-2012, 12:04 AM
Winning civil rights battles often requires reform in your own community. As I've said elsewhere, when King sought to change America, one of the key things he had to change was his own co-clergy first. See his Letter from a Birmingham Jail (http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html).

Yep, Dr. King had that right. The first priority in any movement must be unity. Unity is not possible when the people in any organization do not have a voice. In addition, self-perpetuating boards (and a few of these exist in the church world too) are the surest way to doom any organization. They have no need to be accountable - or at least they do not think it is that important.

I am sorry that the CRPA leadership does not see the need to institute democratic reforms. Perhaps they are afraid that CRPA members are as upset as NRA members were in the 1970s when they threw everyone out. 30 years later the NRA is considered by both friends and foes alike to be the most powerful lobbying organization in the US. Where would it be today if the members had not been able to change the leadership?

doginmirror
05-31-2012, 3:29 PM
lmfao pwned ! :)

berto
05-31-2012, 4:48 PM
"A shill website."

greasemonkey
05-31-2012, 5:01 PM
There I fixed it :D"A shill website (http://www.crpa.org/)."

wildhawker
05-31-2012, 5:11 PM
Yes, and now it's on the record that the president of the CRPA admits that SaveCRPA is a "gripe site" for purely non-commercial (and protected) speech.

Tony, if you and John weren't so bad for our members I'd laugh at you.

-Brandon

Wherryj
05-31-2012, 5:25 PM
Wouldn't it have been simpler to just write "You're stupid.", and then add the last paragraph about the vote?

Yeah, why complicate the issue with facts and reasonable suggestions?

Jason P
06-01-2012, 12:04 PM
Is this a dirty windshield, or a bent frame? Is CRPA savable, or irredeemably busted? It appears that they have a membership who apparently won't hold them accountable in addition to a governance structure that makes that difficult. So the ones who are interested in holding them accountable are voting with their feet, which just leaves a larger fraction who aren't.

I understand what you're saying. Sure, there's an awesome amount of potential in an organization that big, and it could be a force to be reckoned with for Second Amendment rights if it only had leadership with the vision and competence. But you know what? "If only" is just that: hypothetical, contrary to fact. We wouldn't even need to have this discussion "if only" the anti-gun crowd would wake up tomorrow morning and see the error of their ways.

I can't predict the future. Maybe this is the best strategy. But fighting a natural ally, or even a friendly neutral, when we have large and powerful enemies is rarely a smart move.

The fact that your questioning going about this the easier (not easy) way tells you you don't grasp the scale here.

Have you or anyone you've ever known built a .org from the ground up with even 10,000 paying members, let alone 30,000+/-? What about building a political and legal network for legislation/litigation activities? Coordinating with massive NGOs? Dealing with the bureacracy of the legislature, courts, even the NRA?

This is beyond a large undertaking. CRPA has brand recognition in California too. Every gun store, the NRA, most LEA's have guys at the desk who know who they are. This is something that needs to be dealt with from within as Brandon is working on:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=578831

You should support this. My analogy was spot on. Here's another more epic but similar concept, which should help to convey the levels we are talking about:

America is not transparent in government. Citizens can be detained or even killed under executive order without due process. By whom doesn't matter. The fabric (Constitution) that holds our country in the shape of a once great republic of the people is broken. But it can be fixed through voting, activism and education.

That or a bunch of militants on a massive scale nationwide take over and re-figure out how to do most things. AKA revolution. Hint, revolution would be (logistically speaking) easier because you could use .govs' buildings and filing cabinets.

Now do you possibly start a civil war where the carnage is unimaginable (picture California's .gov running over your 2A rights COMPLETELY unchecked), or do you vote with your wallet, feet and hearts and minds and make a difference?

There is only a choice if you're a little nuts...

greasemonkey
06-01-2012, 12:12 PM
If the CRPA can be fixed from within, I have hope for fixing CA from within! :D

Also, the thread you linked to is very important for people to read and follow.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=578831

The fact that your questioning going about this the easier (not easy) way tells you you don't grasp the scale here.

Have you or anyone you've ever known built a .org from the ground up with even 10,000 paying members, let alone 30,000+/-? What about building a political and legal network for legislation/litigation activities? Coordinating with massive NGOs? Dealing with the bureacracy of the legislature, courts, even the NRA?

This is beyond a large undertaking. CRPA has brand recognition in California too. Every gun store, the NRA, most LEA's have guys at the desk who know who they are. This is something that needs to be dealt with from within as Brandon is working on:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=578831

You should support this. My analogy was spot on. Here's another more epic but similar concept, which should help to convey the levels we are talking about:

America is not transparent in government. Citizens can be detained or even killed under executive order without due process. By whom doesn't matter. The fabric (Constitution) that holds our country in the shape of a once great republic of the people is broken. But it can be fixed through voting, activism and education.

That or a bunch of militants on a massive scale nationwide take over and re-figure out how to do most things. AKA revolution. Hint, revolution would be (logistically speaking) easier because you could use .govs' buildings and filing cabinets.

Now do you possibly start a civil war where the carnage is unimaginable (picture California's .gov running over your 2A rights COMPLETELY unchecked), or do you vote with your wallet, feet and hearts and minds and make a difference?

There is only a choice if you're a little nuts...