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View Full Version : "How a Shady FFL and Incompetent ATF Agent Almost Landed Me in Jail"


Cannon-Arms
05-24-2012, 5:47 PM
A good read over at TTAG.

Did a quick search and didn't see it posted.


http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/05/foghorn/annals-of-bureaucracy-how-a-shady-ffl-and-incompetent-atf-agent-almost-landed-me-in-jail/

It's frightening how easily a person could get into trouble with the ATF/Law Enforcement. I kept screaming in my head "don't call him" while reading the account of what happened.

sofbak
05-24-2012, 6:18 PM
Always, always, ALWAYS: CALL THE LAWYER FIRST!!!!!!

paul0660
05-24-2012, 6:28 PM
Always, always, ALWAYS: CALL THE LAWYER FIRST!!!!!!

Not necessarily. Read the code, call the lawman, educate him. Standard call to the DOJ.

glockman19
05-24-2012, 6:29 PM
Wow...the incompetence

fighterpilot562
05-24-2012, 6:41 PM
Both the FFL and the agent are stupid. The FFL has some nerve to ask someone to put false information in another FFL book and also should have know the laws, and the agent should really know the law before even calling.

sofbak
05-24-2012, 6:51 PM
Not necessarily. Read the code, call the lawman, educate him. Standard call to the DOJ.


Krap! It's not the citizen's job to educate LEO. And on top of that, if the guy had mispoken to the agent or even unknowlingly told a "false hood", he could have been in even more hot water.

Time and time again the refrain is reinforced "DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE" or any other leo. Get legal counsel first-especially when you KNOW they are fishing for a charge against you.

robcoe
05-24-2012, 6:54 PM
Not necessarily. Read the code, call the lawman, educate him. Standard call to the DOJ.

It might cost me a few bucks, but I would have everything I said to the agent vetted by a lawyer first.

$1000 for a few hours of attorny time is cheap compared to the tens or hundreds of thousands that I could lose on a court case that could result from misspeaking, even if I win the case.

This thing didn't start as a friendly chat, it started with the cop flat saying that the author commited a crime, for me at that point it's red alert, sheilds up.

Sniper3142
05-24-2012, 7:02 PM
This kind of behaviour from a government JBT doesn't surprise me one bit.

:(

I'm glad it worked out for the honest citizen.

mud99
05-24-2012, 7:05 PM
This guy made a big mistake - always call the receiving FFL before shipping. Don't ship a firearm to them blindly.

For all you know, the store burned down, the owner died in a car wreck, they have some backwards policy on transfers, a new law just passed in their state which makes your gun illegal, their gun lockup is full, or maybe they already know that the guy trying to buy it is a felon.

I feel bad for him, but the way I see it, his screw up caused this chain reaction of events.

Meplat
05-24-2012, 7:13 PM
I disagree; Unintended Consequences is a great read.:43:

JSolie
05-24-2012, 8:17 PM
Wow, what a hassle!

This guy made a big mistake - always call the receiving FFL before shipping. Don't ship a firearm to them blindly.

QFT!

Goosebrown
05-24-2012, 8:37 PM
I agree. Call first and get confirmation that the FFL is still in business and prepared to accept the gun. I do that on my end with the FFL also and tell them if it is going to be from another FFL or a non-FFL and if they tell me they have a problem, I let the seller know ASAP.

Smokeybehr
05-24-2012, 9:02 PM
ATF are like the Mall Ninjas of the Security business...

Burbur
05-24-2012, 9:20 PM
$1000 for a few hours of attorny time is cheap compared to the tens or hundreds of thousands that I could lose on a court case that could result from misspeaking, even if I win the case.

Maybe to you, throwing $1000 at a lawyer every time some FUD spewing jackhole tries to tattle-tale to LE on you, but to me, the only thing I have for those people is a finger, somewhere between index and ring.

alfred1222
05-24-2012, 9:26 PM
I agree, call the lawyer for advice first

FalconLair
05-24-2012, 11:08 PM
the only thing I have for those people is a finger, somewhere between index and ring.

i think that only leaves the middle finger, right? :rolleyes:

OH, i get it now :cool:

mosinnagantm9130
05-24-2012, 11:48 PM
:facepalm:

Wow.

tenpercentfirearms
05-25-2012, 5:53 AM
A little sensationalistic there. Your life was not almost ruined because you talked to the ATF on the phone.

vantec08
05-25-2012, 6:18 AM
"We're from the government, here to help you."

Manolito
05-25-2012, 8:07 AM
I have never dealt with the ATF&E however I am scared of my Government. I have a lot to loose and the laws have become to complex to complete a day without breaking some ordnance or law.

I have met enforcement and it contains a mix of intelligent people with common sense and also people that have no common sense and probably took the job to get even for being picked on in school and they are going to spend the rest of their life picking on others.

There is no accountability of enforcement. When you have enforcement that goes to a parolles house 20+ times and fails to find three people being held captive in the back yard or the convicted sex offender they are checking on they are incompetent and still they keep their job.

Sorry

paul0660
05-25-2012, 8:11 AM
Krap! It's not the citizen's job to educate LEO. And on top of that, if the guy had mispoken to the agent or even unknowlingly told a "false hood", he could have been in even more hot water.

Time and time again the refrain is reinforced "DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE" or any other leo. Get legal counsel first-especially when you KNOW they are fishing for a charge against you.

You must spend a lot on lawyers, or be one.

Wherryj
05-25-2012, 9:40 AM
Always, always, ALWAYS: CALL THE LAWYER FIRST!!!!!!

Not just "a" lawyer, make sure it is "THE" lawyer.

Might I also add:

Before you decide to piss off a writer, make certain that you have all of the facts in order. Writers are very good a publicizing moronic behavior.

motorhead
05-25-2012, 10:15 AM
many ffl's will not accept shipment from private parties. it's always a good idea for the buyer to check before completing the transaction. many sellers include a warning to this effect in their ads. i.e.,"please make sure your ffl will accept shipment from private party".

m03
05-25-2012, 10:26 AM
A little sensationalistic there. Your life was not almost ruined because you talked to the ATF on the phone.

This. Title does not match story.

sofbak
05-25-2012, 10:54 AM
You must spend a lot on lawyers, or be one.

I don't, and I'm not. But I do know how to contact one and recognize the need too.

[QUOTE=Wherryj;8642314]Not just "a" lawyer, make sure it is "THE" lawyer.

Three numbers in my cell phone, and three business cards in my wallet for:

Davis and associates
Michel and associates
Calguns hotline

In the current anti-rights culture, one is just as likely to need self defense from zealous law enforcement as one would from a criminal act.

CBruce
05-25-2012, 12:25 PM
A little sensationalistic there. Your life was not almost ruined because you talked to the ATF on the phone.

But he could have been arrested, and while in lockup could have been raped and contracted HIV/Hep-C. He was this close to contracting HIV/Hep-C because of some ignorant ATF agent.

Sounds like a 3-way screw up to me. Everyone had a part and ultimately nothing bad happened outside of some a bit of wasted time in phone conversations.

MigNoche
05-25-2012, 1:32 PM
"We're from the government, here to help you."

that is a famous Oxy moron!

atfabuse.com

ICONIC
05-25-2012, 2:09 PM
This is why I am always hesitant to buy from an outside ffl and have a firearm shipped.

bohoki
05-25-2012, 10:47 PM
that ffl should have his license revoked for attempting to falsify forms also conspiracy to falsify federal forms

tenpercentfirearms
05-26-2012, 5:31 AM
that ffl should have his license revoked for attempting to falsify forms also conspiracy to falsify federal forms

No he should be educated and everyone should move on. People are making Mt. Everest out of this mole hill.

SanPedroShooter
05-26-2012, 5:51 AM
No he should be educated and everyone should move on. People are making Mt. Everest out of this mole hill.

I agree. Why would anyone want to see an FFL get reamed by the ATF?

Furthermore, there is no good reason why the author shouldnt just be able to send his damn rifle to however bought it from him direct, and skip the FFL in the first place. Besides the fact its illegal...

He should have called first. Do people really send guns blind? What do they do, attach a little note? I probably send it right back unopened, who the hell knows where or who it came from.

HowardW56
05-26-2012, 8:01 AM
No he should be educated and everyone should move on. People are making Mt. Everest out of this mole hill.

:iagree:

cmichini
05-26-2012, 10:05 AM
To expect any rational cooperation, effort or intelligence from any government employee, especially one with a badge of any kind, is akin to expecting a unicorn to spring from your anus. It'll never happen. YMMV

motorhead
05-26-2012, 1:16 PM
But he could have been arrested, and while in lockup could have been raped and contracted HIV/Hep-C. He was this close to contracting HIV/Hep-C because of some ignorant ATF agent.

Sounds like a 3-way screw up to me. Everyone had a part and ultimately nothing bad happened outside of some a bit of wasted time in phone conversations.
a meteor COULD have hit the earth, ending life as we know it. the guy's overreacting.