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View Full Version : Can we ignore Pena and just go straight back to NeRF's?


CHS
05-22-2012, 9:14 PM
Since Pena is being stayed due to Nordyke, but the 9th is making it abundantly clear that Nordyke has nothing to do with the 2A, will Pena honestly ever go anywhere this year alone?

Why not just say "screw it" and start up NeRF's again? The DOJ is violating the law by stating that we can't DROS receivers as pistols, when the procedure is documented already in the DROS software itself!

Can't we give the DOJ official notice that even though the OAL ignored our petition that we're going to follow the law and get FFL's to start NeRF'ing handguns and handgun frames/receivers for us?

safewaysecurity
05-22-2012, 9:23 PM
Didn't both sides ask for the stay to be lifted? I haven't heard any news after that announcement.

thedrickel
05-22-2012, 9:29 PM
DROS it as a long gun and volreg as a pistol :hide:

CHS
05-22-2012, 9:32 PM
DROS it as a long gun and volreg as a pistol :hide:

Yeah, I don't see any law that would prevent one from actually doing that.

alfred1222
05-22-2012, 9:32 PM
Sure, it sounds like a great idea!! YOU FIRST!!!! let me know what happens, and maybe a month or two later ill get to it

Connor P Price
05-22-2012, 9:35 PM
This is one of those times when the old adage "slow and steady wins the race" comes to mind. The wheels of justice turn slowly, but they give a degree of certainty that's difficult to argue with if you're not interested in going to jail.

Bhobbs
05-22-2012, 9:41 PM
This is one of those times when the old adage "slow and steady wins the race" comes to mind. The wheels of justice turn slowly, but they give a degree of certainty that's difficult to argue with if you're not interested in going to jail.

It seems to me the wheels of justice in the Nordyke case and all the stayed cases pending, are just vibrating in place to give the appearance of turning while actually doing nothing at all.

1stLineGear
05-22-2012, 9:45 PM
Since Pena is being stayed due to Nordyke, but the 9th is making it abundantly clear that Nordyke has nothing to do with the 2A, will Pena honestly ever go anywhere this year alone?

Why not just say "screw it" and start up NeRF's again? The DOJ is violating the law by stating that we can't DROS receivers as pistols, when the procedure is documented already in the DROS software itself!

Can't we give the DOJ official notice that even though the OAL ignored our petition that we're going to follow the law and get FFL's to start NeRF'ing handguns and handgun frames/receivers for us?

some of my friends and I just dros'd some AR lowers as pistols. :o

Bhobbs
05-22-2012, 10:01 PM
Why not just file another suit. Maybe an equal protection case based on LEOs being able to buy off roster pistols and leave Pena stayed on Nordyke?

Is there any time frame where Pena will get going again?

thedrickel
05-22-2012, 10:39 PM
OK I'll be frank. I have done it. It makes an interesting paperweight. Took some verbal maneuvering with the BOFfercrats but no big deal.

Bhobbs
05-22-2012, 10:42 PM
OK I'll be frank. I have done it. It makes an interesting paperweight. Took some verbal maneuvering with the BOFfercrats but no big deal.

You've done what? DROSed an AR15 lower receiver as a pistol?

CHS
05-22-2012, 11:39 PM
You've done what? DROSed an AR15 lower receiver as a pistol?

No, he DROS'ed a receiver as a "long gun" and then simply filled out the Volreg for that receiver as a handgun. It's now registered to him as a handgun.

CHS
05-22-2012, 11:39 PM
You've done what? DROSed an AR15 lower receiver as a pistol?

I've done this, FYI.

Calguns.net receiver #42 :)

wildhawker
05-23-2012, 12:12 AM
Yeah, I don't see any law that would prevent one from actually doing that.

There's also no law that compels DOJ to volreg any firearm, period, so...

-Brandon

CHS
05-23-2012, 1:00 AM
There's also no law that compels DOJ to volreg any firearm, period, so...

-Brandon

Hence, just NeRF the suckers.

nicki
05-23-2012, 2:19 PM
DROS it as a long gun and volreg as a pistol :hide:

If you DROS a gun as a rifle, then you register it as a pistol, you just created a paper trial that you may have made a rifle into a pistol.

Right now my current understanding with federal law is you can convert a pistol to a rifle, but not the other way around.

Although highly unlikely that anyone would pursue you, why risk being a test case for a NFA unregistered short barrelled rifle.

Nicki

dantodd
05-23-2012, 3:37 PM
If you DROS a gun as a rifle, then you register it as a pistol, you just created a paper trial that you may have made a rifle into a pistol.

Right now my current understanding with federal law is you can convert a pistol to a rifle, but not the other way around.

Although highly unlikely that anyone would pursue you, why risk being a test case for a NFA unregistered short barrelled rifle.

Nicki

No one said anything about rifles. A long gun is not necessarily a rifle.

CHS
05-23-2012, 3:44 PM
No one said anything about rifles. A long gun is not necessarily a rifle.

More importantly, with the NeRF workaround, frames are DROS'ed properly as pistols.

Well.. That's not proper either, because they ARENT pistols, but at least it allows you to build the frame into a pistol without trying to trick the roster and gives you a legal paper trail and proper handgun registration in case there is ever any LEO questioning.

CHS
05-23-2012, 3:47 PM
If you DROS a gun as a rifle, then you register it as a pistol, you just created a paper trial that you may have made a rifle into a pistol.

You can't actually DROS anything as a rifle, only "long gun", which would include rifles, shotguns, and Title 1 "others" which include PGO "shotguns", which aren't legally shotguns either.

There is no law, California or otherwise, that explicitly prohibits converting a Title 1 "other" into a pistol.

DRH
05-23-2012, 3:56 PM
In the past, the ATF said you had to have a letter of determination for a pistol build on a virgin rifle reciever to ensure you were not creating a NFA regulated weapon. If the receiver was marked and logged as a pistol from the mfg, you would not need the letter. I do not know if they have changed their stance on this position over the years.

Here is a reference
http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atf_letter7.txt

CHS
05-23-2012, 4:13 PM
In the past, the ATF said you had to have a letter of determination for a pistol build on a virgin rifle reciever to ensure you were not creating a NFA regulated weapon. If the receiver was marked and logged as a pistol from the mfg, you would not need the letter. I do not know if they have changed their stance on this position over the years.

Here is a reference
http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atf_letter7.txt

We're not talking about pistols or rifles. We're talking about receivers and frames, AKA Title 1 Other's.

DRH
05-23-2012, 4:26 PM
We're not talking about pistols or rifles. We're talking about receivers and frames, AKA Title 1 Other's.

My post was about bare virgin frames/receivers and building a pistol from them with regards to ATF's stance.

CHS
05-23-2012, 4:36 PM
My post was about bare virgin frames/receivers and building a pistol from them with regards to ATF's stance.

No, you talked about building pistols on rifle receivers.

A rifle receiver is a rifle.

A receiver is a receiver, AKA "other".

Bhobbs
05-23-2012, 6:35 PM
No, you talked about building pistols on rifle receivers.

A rifle receiver is a rifle.

A receiver is a receiver, AKA "other".

Which is why you have to be 21 to buy a stripped AR lower.

mrdd
05-23-2012, 6:46 PM
In the past, the ATF said you had to have a letter of determination for a pistol build on a virgin rifle reciever to ensure you were not creating a NFA regulated weapon. If the receiver was marked and logged as a pistol from the mfg, you would not need the letter. I do not know if they have changed their stance on this position over the years.

Here is a reference
http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atf_letter7.txt

The response letter says "Verification must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish its authenticity."

That is a bit dodgy. Authenticity as what? That it has never been built as a rifle? How would the mfg know that for certain?

CHS
05-23-2012, 8:44 PM
The response letter says "Verification must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish its authenticity."

That is a bit dodgy. Authenticity as what? That it has never been built as a rifle? How would the mfg know that for certain?

If you get a used receiver, it's very possible that it could have been shipped originally from the manufacturer as a rifle. It would be on their books as having been manufactured as a rifle. If you build a handgun from that receiver, it's actually a felony unregistered SBR because you've built a firearm from a rifle that has a barrel length less than 16" (and or OAL less than 26".

That's for receivers that you don't know the origin of and totally irrelevant to this thread and NeRF's.

Receivers that we're talking about are shipped from the manufacturer and/or distributor AS receivers. They will have been marked appropriately.

mrdd
05-23-2012, 9:55 PM
If you get a used receiver, it's very possible that it could have been shipped originally from the manufacturer as a rifle. It would be on their books as having been manufactured as a rifle. If you build a handgun from that receiver, it's actually a felony unregistered SBR because you've built a firearm from a rifle that has a barrel length less than 16" (and or OAL less than 26".

That's for receivers that you don't know the origin of and totally irrelevant to this thread and NeRF's.

Receivers that we're talking about are shipped from the manufacturer and/or distributor AS receivers. They will have been marked appropriately.

Marked where? In the paperwork? Can one assume that a new, stripped receiver is going to be "marked" correctly?

CHS
05-23-2012, 10:06 PM
Marked where? In the paperwork?

In the manufacturers books.

Can one assume that a new, stripped receiver is going to be "marked" correctly?

Yes.

kcbrown
05-23-2012, 10:11 PM
This is one of those times when the old adage "slow and steady wins the race" comes to mind. The wheels of justice turn slowly, but they give a degree of certainty that's difficult to argue with if you're not interested in going to jail.

"Slow and steady" is not the same thing as a dead stop. The latter describes the current situation, not the former.

CHS
05-23-2012, 10:42 PM
"Slow and steady" is not the same thing as a dead stop. The latter describes the current situation, not the former.

Exactly. We talked about NeRF'ing almost 4 years ago.

Shortly after, the petition to the OAL was filed. They rejected it. Pena was then filed.

It's been over 3 YEARS for Pena with absolutely zero forward movement.

I mean, how hard is it to find an anti-gun judge in CA to just say "Yeah, sorry, 'safety' restrictions are tewtally constitutional bro's. Enjoy your roster" in three years?

Bhobbs
05-23-2012, 10:50 PM
Exactly. We talked about NeRF'ing almost 4 years ago.

Shortly after, the petition to the OAL was filed. They rejected it. Pena was then filed.

It's been over 3 YEARS for Pena with absolutely zero forward movement.

I mean, how hard is it to find an anti-gun judge in CA to just say "Yeah, sorry, 'safety' restrictions are tewtally constitutional bro's. Enjoy your roster" in three years?

I think that was the point of staying it pending Nordyke. They knew Nordyke would take years to figure out yet if they ruled on Pena right away it would just move up and we would more than likely win.

thedrickel
05-23-2012, 11:38 PM
How about this . . . split PPT, former CA resident now in another state, mails off-roster frame/handgun and paperwork with copy of current (or even expired) CA ID/DL, buyer completes PPT at FFL in CA.

I think you'll have more success convincing a dealer to do that ^^ than to NRF stuff for you. :)

77bawls
05-23-2012, 11:48 PM
Hence, just NeRF the suckers.

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with this acronym.

CHS
05-24-2012, 12:25 AM
I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with this acronym.

Google works.

But: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=136084

unusedusername
05-24-2012, 12:36 AM
Maybe a dumb question, but what is the point of NeRFs if we can SSE nearly anything?

I understand that it could save your FFL the time of assembling a frame, selling it to you, then disassembling it, but is they any other reason? Are there any frames that are impractical/impossible to do this with?

nick
05-24-2012, 12:43 AM
Maybe a dumb question, but what is the point of NeRFs if we can SSE nearly anything?

I understand that it could save your FFL the time of assembling a frame, selling it to you, then disassembling it, but is they any other reason? Are there any frames that are impractical/impossible to do this with?

Have to have a long barrel for SSE, which limits this to the more popular guns, the ones FFLs have the long barrels for.

bigb0886
05-24-2012, 12:53 AM
Let me see if I get this straight...
-Tomorrow, I can go buy a stripped lower receiver which gets DROS'd as a long gun like normal. "Long gun" by definition includes, rifles, shotguns, and Title 1 "others"

-I then voluntarily register my stripped lower as a pistol, which is okay thanks to the inclusion of Title 1 "other" in the definition of long gun (how much does this cost btw?)

-To be on the safe side, I keep it as a paperweight until all the paperwork goes through

-I buy LPK/pistol buffer and install them (with a BB of course). Again, to be safe I'd keep the receipts as proof that I purchased them after I had a pistol registered to me. Then*I'm good to start buying pistol uppers?

As interested as I was in the OLL movement I'm really surprised I've never heard of this until now. Will this change when we have to start registering long guns? I mean will they (stripped lowers) be registered as long guns or rifles in a few years?*

bigb0886
05-24-2012, 12:54 AM
Also, is there any other place I can read up on NeRFs, besides the link that CHS posted? I don't see it on the wiki, unless I'm blind...

mrdd
05-24-2012, 7:13 AM
Receivers that we're talking about are shipped from the manufacturer and/or distributor AS receivers. They will have been marked appropriately.

OK, one last question (hopefully). Let's say one did have such an AR15 receiver and wanted to build and register it with the state as a pistol (volreg). One would submit the form as (Handgun, Other: Receiver)? In that case the caliber and barrel length would be left blank?

I am having a difficult time believing that the DOJ would not just toss it back in your face as "nice try"!

dantodd
05-24-2012, 9:31 AM
I believe you must also build the pistol initially in an SSE compliant manner, i.e. dimensionally compliant and single shot with a zero round sled.

There is no requirement that DoJ accept your voluntary registration. If they refuse you may become a test case.

Let me see if I get this straight...
-Tomorrow, I can go buy a stripped lower receiver which gets DROS'd as a long gun like normal. "Long gun" by definition includes, rifles, shotguns, and Title 1 "others"

-I then voluntarily register my stripped lower as a pistol, which is okay thanks to the inclusion of Title 1 "other" in the definition of long gun (how much does this cost btw?)

-To be on the safe side, I keep it as a paperweight until all the paperwork goes through

-I buy LPK/pistol buffer and install them (with a BB of course). Again, to be safe I'd keep the receipts as proof that I purchased them after I had a pistol registered to me. Then*I'm good to start buying pistol uppers?

As interested as I was in the OLL movement I'm really surprised I've never heard of this until now. Will this change when we have to start registering long guns? I mean will they (stripped lowers) be registered as long guns or rifles in a few years?*

mrdd
05-24-2012, 10:14 AM
I believe you must also build the pistol initially in an SSE compliant manner, i.e. dimensionally compliant and single shot with a zero round sled.

I thought this thread was just about registering receivers, not functioning pistols.

In any case, with an AR, how would you propose to build it SSE if you cannot legally possess the upper before the receiver is registered?

bigb0886
05-24-2012, 10:14 AM
According to Bhobbs and CHS, it's been done. Can I ask if you two had any trouble getting the receiver volreg'd as a pistol? Along those same lines have you ever been approached by any type of LE? If so, how did that go?

bigb0886
05-24-2012, 10:16 AM
+1 to mrdd's SSE question

Bhobbs
05-24-2012, 10:18 AM
According to Bhobbs and CHS, it's been done. Can I ask if you two had any trouble getting the receiver volreg'd as a pistol? Along those same lines have you ever been approached by any type of LE? If so, how did that go?

I've never done it. I was just mentioning that you have to be 21 to buy an AR lower because they are not a rifle or shotgun.

bigb0886
05-24-2012, 10:22 AM
Oh okay. Thanks for the clarification. Maybe CHS can chime in on his experience.

j-rod
05-24-2012, 10:29 AM
I have not been up to speed on NeRFs. I'm trying to catch up.

Does this mean I can get a replacement frame for my broken 1911? Is this common place? Are there shops that are versed in this?

ojisan
05-24-2012, 10:37 AM
^ Still at the idea / proposal stage.

j-rod
05-24-2012, 10:47 AM
^ Still at the idea / proposal stage.

ty :)

wildhawker
05-24-2012, 10:54 AM
I remember more than a few DROSes being cancelled because Dana et al @ DOJ hated NeRFs. However, none of the people wanted to be plaintiffs.

If we can get some support lined up vis-a-vis new FFL 01/07, FFL03, and firearms trainer members, Cal-FFL can take a look at filing on the various underground regs associated with the DROS system itself as well as DROSes/transactions cancelled by DOJ because they don't like what the law allows for.

So, CHS, let's talk.

-Brandon

dantodd
05-24-2012, 12:37 PM
Yay!

bigb0886
05-24-2012, 2:02 PM
Loooooong overdue but $25 inbound to CGF. Here's hoping this gets off the ground...

dantodd
05-24-2012, 3:20 PM
I thought this thread was just about registering receivers, not functioning pistols.

In any case, with an AR, how would you propose to build it SSE if you cannot legally possess the upper before the receiver is registered?

There have been occasions where the DoJ has refused to accept VolReg papers on pistols built up from receivers.

Regardless of whether you VolReg before or after building the pistol the roster still applies and that means it is illegal to build an AR pistol unless it is SSE compliant. Once it is built in an SSE compliant form you can configure the weapon as a semi-auto.

mrdd
05-24-2012, 3:49 PM
I thought this thread was just about registering receivers, not functioning pistols.

In any case, with an AR, how would you propose to build it SSE if you cannot legally possess the upper before the receiver is registered?

There have been occasions where the DoJ has refused to accept VolReg papers on pistols built up from receivers.

Regardless of whether you VolReg before or after building the pistol the roster still applies and that means it is illegal to build an AR pistol unless it is SSE compliant. Once it is built in an SSE compliant form you can configure the weapon as a semi-auto.

If you want to build an AR pistol:

1) Federally, you can build a it from a virgin frame of any kind
2) For the state, you need to first register the frame to avoid SBR issues

Only after you have a frame which is registered with the state, can you SSE it.

I realize that (2) possibly requires a miracle at this time, or at least good luck.

wildhawker
05-24-2012, 3:51 PM
If you want to build an AR pistol:

1) Federally, you can build a it from a virgin frame of any kind
2) For the state, you need to first register the frame to avoid SBR issues

Only after you have a frame which is registered with the state, can you SSE it.

I realize that (2) possibly requires a miracle at this time, or at least good luck.

Please support [2] with citation. I don't know of any legal analysis to date that would be dispositive of that assertion.

-Brandon

CHS
05-24-2012, 6:10 PM
Ugh.. So much fail here.

Ok, to everyone talking about volreg's: STOP. Volreg'ing "long gun" DROS'ed frames has *NOTHING* to do with NeRF's. Period. Just take it out of this thread.

Maybe a dumb question, but what is the point of NeRFs if we can SSE nearly anything?

I understand that it could save your FFL the time of assembling a frame, selling it to you, then disassembling it, but is they any other reason? Are there any frames that are impractical/impossible to do this with?

The point is, you get a frame. Not a wholly-built pistol with a 6" barrel and other SSE stuff. You get a plain ole stripped frame, and then can build up the gun as you like.

I mean, why buy an $1100 SSE AR pistol to get around the roster when you can buy a $99 AR receiver and build up the pistol as you like over time?

1911 frames, anyone?

Let me see if I get this straight...
-Tomorrow, I can go buy a stripped lower receiver which gets DROS'd as a long gun like normal. "Long gun" by definition includes, rifles, shotguns, and Title 1 "others"

-I then voluntarily register my stripped lower as a pistol, which is okay thanks to the inclusion of Title 1 "other" in the definition of long gun (how much does this cost btw?)

-To be on the safe side, I keep it as a paperweight until all the paperwork goes through

-I buy LPK/pistol buffer and install them (with a BB of course). Again, to be safe I'd keep the receipts as proof that I purchased them after I had a pistol registered to me. Then*I'm good to start buying pistol uppers?

As interested as I was in the OLL movement I'm really surprised I've never heard of this until now. Will this change when we have to start registering long guns? I mean will they (stripped lowers) be registered as long guns or rifles in a few years?*

That's not NeRF'ing.

OK, one last question (hopefully). Let's say one did have such an AR15 receiver and wanted to build and register it with the state as a pistol (volreg). One would submit the form as (Handgun, Other: Receiver)? In that case the caliber and barrel length would be left blank?

I am having a difficult time believing that the DOJ would not just toss it back in your face as "nice try"!

They might. That has zero to do with NeRF'ing.

According to Bhobbs and CHS, it's been done. Can I ask if you two had any trouble getting the receiver volreg'd as a pistol? Along those same lines have you ever been approached by any type of LE? If so, how did that go?

I've never volreg'ed a "long gun" DROS'ed receiver as a pistol. I have only NeRF'ed an AR receiver as a pistol. It's currently registered to me since the DROS process is automatic.

I remember more than a few DROSes being cancelled because Dana et al @ DOJ hated NeRFs. However, none of the people wanted to be plaintiffs.


Mine and my wife's went through just fine. I've done a couple for certain customers in the past as well, when I worked for a shop.

This is a NeRF:
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m446/bdsmchs/KD-pistol-1.jpg
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m446/bdsmchs/KD-pistol.jpg

Yes, I know it says peace office transfer. A NeRF looks identical, and you process it under the "Olympic Pistol/Curio/Relic/Exempt" tab in DROS.

The dealer chooses type "other" and caliber "frame only", and then under "frame only" chooses "yes". There's a reason those choices exist and that's because "handgun frames" are exempt from the roster. It's codified law.


If we can get some support lined up vis-a-vis new FFL 01/07, FFL03, and firearms trainer members, Cal-FFL can take a look at filing on the various underground regs associated with the DROS system itself as well as DROSes/transactions cancelled by DOJ because they don't like what the law allows for.

So, CHS, let's talk.

-Brandon

I'm happy to talk.

mrdd
05-24-2012, 6:58 PM
OK, I misunderstood what NRF meant. I took the mention of volreg early in the thread and ran with it. He did say:
DROS it as a long gun and volreg as a pistol :hide:

You are talking about the sale of a virgin receiver being processed by the FFL as a frame. That is a NRF.

mrdd
05-24-2012, 7:18 PM
If you want to build an AR pistol:

1) Federally, you can build a it from a virgin frame of any kind
2) For the state, you need to first register the frame to avoid SBR issues

Only after you have a frame which is registered with the state, can you SSE it.

I realize that (2) possibly requires a miracle at this time, or at least good luck.

Please support [2] with citation. I don't know of any legal analysis to date that would be dispositive of that assertion.

-Brandon

Forget it, I misunderstood the meaning of NRF. If you possess a proper NRF, SSE is irrelevant, since it is already roster exempt.

CHS
05-24-2012, 7:21 PM
OK, I misunderstood what NRF meant. I took the mention of volreg early in the thread and ran with it. He did say:


Yeah, he was suggesting an alternative to NeRF.


You are talking about the sale of a virgin receiver being processed by the FFL as a frame. That is a NRF.

Bingo :)

bigb0886
05-24-2012, 7:27 PM
Ahhhh...okay I see. Thanks for the mini walk through

ptoguy2002
06-15-2012, 10:09 AM
So, should I keep my hopes up that there will be a recognized Nerf path before too long, or no?

CHS
06-15-2012, 10:58 AM
So, should I keep my hopes up that there will be a recognized Nerf path before too long, or no?

I hope so. I also don't believe that it taints the Pena case at all.