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ExtremeX
05-22-2012, 5:33 PM
What types of optics are typically found on a Recce rifle? What magnification and type of scope fit the intent of the design?

Would the Recce be better suited with something like a 1-4x or 1-6x optic. Ive had some people tell me an ACOG would also be well suited for this but I tend to disagree.

I am very tempted by the SWFA SS 1-6x scope promo right now. Wanted to see if this would be a wise choice for the Reece AR upper I am trying to spec out right now.

Juice5610
05-22-2012, 7:50 PM
Ima go with a vortex pst 1-4

Bladewurk
05-22-2012, 7:57 PM
I think a 1-4X is good for out to 600. Wanna go further?
I'd reach for my LMT MWS if I could..
I have the ACOG and the Viper PST 1-4x.. I like the Viper better but would buy the capped model so I could "set and forget" and not have to check the turret settings because they do get bumped and will move..

The ACOG TA11 is great for a quick hit the Viper is great for more precision hits on smaller targets..


Both are good as well as Trij Accupoint, Loopy Patrol etc

Calplinker
05-22-2012, 8:01 PM
I have a Vortex Viper PST 1-4 on my lightweight AR build in the photos below. I've used it quite a bit and it is an awesome scope and excellent for close in work and out to 300+ yards (with my eyes). It's a true 1X, so with the illumination on, it provides quick target acqusition, even in bright daylight.

Having said that, I also have a SS 5-20 HD on a bolt gun. It too is an awesome scope and while I don't have experience with their new 1-6, I'd bet it is also very nicely done.

I've used an ACOG and personally don't care for them. I much prefer the variable magnification of the Viper. The Elcan would also be a good choice as it can be toggled from 1X over to 4X, though there is no "in-between".

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc417/IEShooter/Light%20Weight%20AR/20120210_0858.jpg

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc417/IEShooter/Light%20Weight%20AR/20120210_0860.jpg

ExtremeX
05-22-2012, 8:56 PM
I guess there is no true standard for a Recce rifle... I just wanted confirmation the ACOG was not the right optic for this build. I guess Ill keep my TA31F on my carbine with a M4 profile barrel.

I was in the middle of an 18" SPR build and got the Recce bug after finding a pretty awesome 16" 416 SS barrel to use for smaller precession setup.

I like the Vortex Viper PST a lot, but I wanted something in the upper end of the spectrum with better build quality and optical clarity; considering its a precession setup the higher end 1-6x and 1-8x scopes have really peaked my interest.

I would love to get one of the US Optics 1-4x or 1-8x Dual Focal Plane scopes but the price is pretty wild at around $1500-$2200

SWFA has an tempting offer right now with $200 off $1000 for a 1-6x FFP optic... but I have no experience with the brand.

Black Majik
05-22-2012, 9:45 PM
I've always thought of the RECCE to use a low powered variable optic.

I recently went through something similar finding a 1-4x scope, but had some requirements. Mine were daytime illumination (aimpoint bright), some sort of BDC or holdover reticle, and resettable turrets either capped or uncapped.

The most feature rich for the price would be the Viper PST, but I felt the illumination in the day wasn't bright enough for my needs. Daytime illumination really killed a lot of the choices. The NF 1-4, SWFA 1-4, Vortex, all didn't make the cut. The Trijicon accupoint had the mildot reticle, but the illuminated dot was way too small for it to be effective for what I wanted.

I suppose it really depends on the type of features you're really after. From your post it seems you really like good quality glass. Pretty much all the scopes I had the chance to look through fisheyed a little bit at 1x/1.1x, but right now there are a lot of options to choose from. The SWFA deal going on right now for the combo is a smoking deal. I was pretty impressed with the 5-20x, I believe the 1-6x will be a superb optic, but of course it's only from what's seen on paper.

asgalindez
05-22-2012, 9:50 PM
taken from Wiki:

SEAL Recon Rifle


Built in-house by U.S. Navy SEAL Team armorers, and later by the Naval Surface Warfare Center, Crane Division (often referred to as NSWC-Crane or "Crane"), the SEAL Recon Rifle was developed to provide SEAL snipers with a portable, lightweight system with greater lethality than a standard M4 carbine. The SEAL Recon Rifle is sometimes referred to as the "Recce Rifle".

When production of this rifle was turned over to NSWC-Crane, U.S. Army funding and concepts were apparently incorporated into the program (there is some confusion as to the exact events). The SEAL Teams were apparently disappointed with the performance of the resulting Mk 12 Special Purpose Rifle (SPR), and convinced the program managers at Crane to return to the original specifications. Production of "Recon Rifles" on the original pattern is progressing now according to several sources.[citation needed]

Specifications

According to Wes Grant of M.S.T.N. a premiere small arms builder, these weapons were initially built in-house with the only specifications being the ability to shoot any 5.56 x 45 mm cartridge in inventory (at the time this included the first iterations of the 77-grain (5 g) Mk 262 Mod 0 cartridge), and that the weapon have a barrel 16 inches (406 mm) in length.[citation needed]

The barrel blanks are made by Lilja Precision[citation needed] and then chambered by Compass Lake.[citation needed] They have a 1:8 in (203 mm) twist and are stainless steel.[citation needed] They have a unique heavy barrel profile, starting with 0.980 in (25 mm) in diameter for the first 2.60 in (66 mm) of length, then narrowing down to 0.850 (22 mm) in diameter, 0.750 in (19 mm) in diameter underneath the front sight block, and 0.725 in (18 mm) in diameter to the muzzle. The barrels have the Ops Inc 12th model suppressors with the specified muzzle brake to mount the suppressor. A rifle-length gas system is used. These barrels were mated to flat top upper receivers, and back up iron sights (BUIS) from KAC (knight armament corp).

Beyond this, exact specifications vary. Since they were built in house, they seem to have been accessorized to personal preferences, with fixed (A1 and A2 styles) and retractable butt-stocks. (Original 4-point and improved 6-point Colt stocks, and the Crane/SOCOM/LMT stock are all in use.) Recon rifles built by Crane are reportedly all fitted with a free-float handguard system, the most popular being the Knight's Armament Co. M4 Match RAS and the LaRue free-float handguards in the longer lengths (which protect the barrel and provide more area to mount tactical accessories). Some operators reportedly use various back-up iron sights (BUISs) by Knight's, ARMS Inc, and Troy Industries, while others do not. The range of optics used on Recon rifles is wide, with various models by Trijicon (like ACOG TA01, TA31F), Leupold (TS-30A1, TS-30A2), and NightForce in use.

Due to the secretive nature of the end-users, first-hand information and data regarding the Recon rifles seems to be quite rare. How much these specifications have changed with regards to Crane's "production" weapons is unknown.

ExtremeX
05-22-2012, 10:12 PM
I've always thought of the RECCE to use a low powered variable optic.

I recently went through something similar finding a 1-4x scope, but had some requirements. Mine were daytime illumination (aimpoint bright), some sort of BDC or holdover reticle, and resettable turrets either capped or uncapped.

The most feature rich for the price would be the Viper PST, but I felt the illumination in the day wasn't bright enough for my needs. Daytime illumination really killed a lot of the choices. The NF 1-4, SWFA 1-4, Vortex, all didn't make the cut. The Trijicon accupoint had the mildot reticle, but the illuminated dot was way too small for it to be effective for what I wanted.

I suppose it really depends on the type of features you're really after. From your post it seems you really like good quality glass. Pretty much all the scopes I had the chance to look through fisheyed a little bit at 1x/1.1x, but right now there are a lot of options to choose from. The SWFA deal going on right now for the combo is a smoking deal. I was pretty impressed with the 5-20x, I believe the 1-6x will be a superb optic, but of course it's only from what's seen on paper.

I do like good quality glass, but I also like a good value and am always looking for a good deal.

I hope the SWFA scopes are as good as people say. I try not to get too jazzed up about Internet hype. I am considering SWFA right now in hopes to kill 2 birds with 1 stone; I still need an optic for my R700 .308

Some of my requirements are a bit like yours, daylight visible reticle in important to me, but the Accupoint falls short in a some areas for me as well. As well as a TRUE 1x optic

I can venture to say the USO SN4 or SN8 DFP is probably the best scope I have ever come across for something like a Recce rifle... Dual Reticle, FFP Crosshair plus a dedicated RDS which can be used from 1-8x. It completely removes the need for an Aimpoint, magnifier, and still has crosshairs with matched reticle/turrents. Unfortunately I'm looking at the upper tiers of price bracket, and its not going to happen right now...

ExtremeX
05-22-2012, 10:18 PM
taken from Wiki:

Thanks for the Wiki

It has information which I find a bit silly. The Recce is supposed to take advantage for the 77gr SMK just like the SPR rifle.

Its odd one would consider using an ACOG like a TA31F, since its calibrated for the 62gr M855. Being what it is, looks like this platform is basically an ever smaller, lighter version on an SPR.

I think the lower power variable might be the ticket here, but I think a 1-4x falls short of what the capabilities of a well made Recce rifle should be able to do.

winxp_man
05-22-2012, 10:20 PM
I sold my 1-4 SWFA to get the 1-6. I ended up ordering the combo they have going on now with the 10000 promo code that just kicked in. I own three SWFA 5-20 and love them and trust me when I say they are durable. I dropped two out of three and they are perfect with no tracking issues. Cant go wrong with them for the money.

If my wallet allowed me to get USO on my rifles I would have gone with them. But it is what it is.

FMJBT
05-22-2012, 10:40 PM
Just a thought concerning FFP scopes with large (6x multiplier) magnification ranges: Any reticle design that will be visible at 1X is going to be really heavy once cranked up to 6X, to the point where it will likely obscure a large percentage of the target. IMHO, FFP scopes work best with around a 4X multiplier on higher power scopes (4-16X, 6-24X, etc) Low power scopes seem to do better for me when they are SFP design.

As far as variable power scopes to fill the role of both CQB and mid/long range optic, the only one to do both really well IMHO is the Elcan Specter DR. It's the only scope out there that does red dot as well as an Aimpoint, and 4X as well as an ACOG. Everything else will be a compromise, almost always loosing out on the CQB side. Variable power scopes, even at a true 1X setting still force your eye to focus through a series of lenses to see the target, so your eyes will never work together as well for both eyes open aiming as they will with a non magnified red dot which has no lenses, only flat plates of glass. The only 1-4X scopes I have seen that work fairly well with both eyes open (other than the Elcans) are Trijicons. Not sure why, but they seem to work almost as well as a red dot, but there is still some lag time when sighting in as your eye focuses through the scope.

The alternative to a low power variable would be to get two independant optics for mid to long range and CQB. I'd suggest going with a mid power variable like a 3-9X or 2.5-10X mounted on top along with a micro red dot like a Doctor Optic or Burris Fastfire mounted alongside at a 45 so that you can rapidly transition between the two if needed. This setup adds a bit of weight, but is truly a no compromise solution to allowing the rifle to perform to it's maximum potential at all engagement ranges.

FMJBT
05-22-2012, 10:55 PM
Its odd one would consider using an ACOG like a TA31F, since its calibrated for the 62gr M855. Being what it is, looks like this platform is basically an ever smaller, lighter version on an SPR.

I think the lower power variable might be the ticket here, but I think a 1-4x falls short of what the capabilities of a well made Recce rifle should be able to do.

Out to around 500 yards, the trajectory of the M855 and Mk262 are pretty similar, beyond that however the MK262 retains a much flatter curve. So if you were only engaging targets out to 600 yards or so, the ACOG would give you a pretty likely first round hit, or at least the capability of a rapid follow up shot to get a hit. I agree though, I think the ACOG is not quite enough scope for a RECCE. Like you said, it's basically just a shorter, lighter version of the SPR. My own take on the RECCE or Diet SPR concept is topped off with a 2.5-10X32 Sightmark:

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6032/6224595229_d01786f69d_z.jpg

A Nightforce 2.5-10X32 would have been nice, but just wasn't in the budget :( The Sightmark actually does pretty well though. I can normally get 7 out of 10 rounds into a 11"X18" steel plate at 650 yards with this rifle using Lake City M855. Later on I plan on adding a mini red dot on the forend for close range work.

Droppin Deuces
05-22-2012, 11:47 PM
RECCE loosely translated means: Waste of time and money. Build the SPR. You won't be disappointed.