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View Full Version : featureless AK chambered in NATO where to buy


ainako
05-22-2012, 9:55 AM
I'm an ultra newb and would like to build an AR in the future but would like something now just in case some ban hammers are laid down in the future. The reason why I want a featureless AK is that I would like to use 30 mags and have an easy maintenance, reliable firearm in (I know AK enthusiasts might not like this) 556. I was looking a the saiga iz or even a WASR, I'm not opposed to building one but I can't find much info on how or even if the parts are available to us. I'm in the 91706 area to give an idea of my location.

Capybara
05-22-2012, 9:57 AM
Do you already own 30 round AK mags?

zfields
05-22-2012, 10:01 AM
Just get a saiga. Already featureless. You can put together an AR for sub 700 pretty easy, so if an AR is your goal, might as well just go that route.

ainako
05-22-2012, 10:21 AM
I don't have 30 mags, my newbness is definitely showing, I thought they are available to buy somehow. AR is my eventual goal and will build my own in the future, but I would like a reliable "out of the box" rifle first. Is the saiga IZ a good model? where can I get one? I would really like an arsenal 106fr but I think those are on the ban list. Also I heard of a reloading problem the AK has about the bolt not locking back on the last round or something but can't it be modded so that the bolt locks back after the last round?

zfields
05-22-2012, 10:23 AM
You need to read through the magazine and AW rifle stickies a few times.

Most Ak's don't lock back (a few specific oddball countries produced their incarnations of the AK platform that had a feature to lock back). Some of the "fixes" to do that are different followers in the magazines, which is worthless. As soon as you pop out the mag the carrier slams forward.

I wouldn't call it a problem, its just part of the rifle. Yes the saiga is fine.

Freagan
05-22-2012, 10:24 AM
It's illegal to buy/import/manufacture 10+ rounds in CA. You had to own them prior to the ban in 2000

Richard Erichsen
05-22-2012, 10:34 AM
You need to read through the magazine and AW rifle stickies a few times.

Most Ak's don't lock back (a few specific oddball countries produced their incarnations of the AK platform that had a feature to lock back). Some of the "fixes" to do that are different followers in the magazines, which is worthless. As soon as you pop out the mag the carrier slams forward.

I wouldn't call it a problem, its just part of the rifle. Yes the saiga is fine.

Cadiz Gunsworks sells a patented LR-BHO for the AK, it just takes about 4 hours with access to the necessary tools to fit it and fine tune. I'm sure subsequent install could be done in under an hour, in my case it took some dinking around after cutting the slot in the bolt head. Cadiz Gunworks will install it for you for a reasonable fee, but shipping to and from the UPS depot will double the cost of the installation and add to the total cost of the unit beyond what I would consider reasonable.

LR-BHO sounds really cool, but now that I've done it, I'm not going to both fitting the other AKs. Out of about 100 million AKs in the world, well below 1% have an LR-BHO and they are still deadly efficient in the hands of an expert. It's also one less bit of gadgetry to go wrong with levers to bend and springs to wear out or break. The HK delayed roller blow-back weapons, with a few notable exceptions, were devoid of LR-BHO but despite this was the most common battle rifle in the free world until 2000 and in some places still is (Scandinavian, African, South East Asian and Middle Eastern countries in particular).

Learn the techniques necessary to allow fast mag changes, there are several, if that's what floats your boat. For the "old guys" with a watchful RSO hanging around making sure nobody tries to fire any faster than 1 round per second, it's pretty easy to anticipate the click even with only ten shots in the box. A notched selector switch does wonders and is a 15 minute job with a dremel following the template floating around on the 'net or on Youtube vids.

R

zfields
05-22-2012, 10:37 AM
Cadiz Gunsworks sells a patented LR-BHO for the AK, it just takes about 4 hours with access to the necessary tools to fit it and fine tune. They will install it for you for a reasonable fee, but shipping to and from the UPS depot will double the cost of the installation and add to the total cost of the unit beyond what I would consider reasonable.

LR-BHO sounds really cool, but now that I've done it I'm not going to both fitting the other AKs in my aresenal with one.

Learn the techniques necessary to allow fast mag changes, there are several, if that's what floats your boat. For the "old guys" with a watchful RSO hanging around making sure nobody tries to fire any faster than 1 round per second, it's pretty easy to anticipate the click even with only ten shots in the box.

R

R, You know I was making a generalization :D


Are they the same guys that had that left hand non-reciprocating charging handle that mounted on the gas tube? After looking at that I realized a SCAR is calling me instead of all the funky bolt on kits.

Richard Erichsen
05-22-2012, 10:41 AM
It's illegal to buy/import/manufacture 10+ rounds in CA. You had to own them prior to the ban in 2000

And those that have them can't legally sell them, so stop asking. ;)

Richard Erichsen
05-22-2012, 10:44 AM
R, You know I was making a generalization :D


Are they the same guys that had that left hand non-reciprocating charging handle that mounted on the gas tube? After looking at that I realized a SCAR is calling me instead of all the funky bolt on kits.

Not meant for you Z, but the OP.

The company that makes the left hand non-reciprocating "Lighting Bolt" thingy are in Colorado I believe, but I could be confusing the two companies that make right-handed charging handles and one might be "reciprocating".

SCAR is just another AR18 clone with a plastic chassis if you ask me, ala G36 and ACR. The Belgians don't deserve your money, there are other options that are just less sexy looking, but just as hard core if a semi-modern military-grade bullet hose is what you're after.

For an AK, there is nothing preventing you from slicing off the finger groove charging handle and replacing it with a 90 degree bend/knurled knob Galil type, or a large straight knurled or similar handle that is easy to reach over/under for if you are a righty. For those of us that prefer to shoulder it on the left, it's already in the correct spot and it's down to preferences for handle shape/size in it's already "optimal" position. Have a welder, a lathe and some drill rod? The options are wide open and you can make a left hand lever that operates just like that monstrosity (albeit reciprocating http://www.coloradoshootingsports.com/aklightningbolt.html) for less than an hours worth of time.

R

zfields
05-22-2012, 11:03 AM
Not the same bolt I was refering to. When I get home ill post the link.

As for the scar. I'd rather a fal in 223, but the scar is a great shooting rifle. The acr didn't balance well for me, even the sbr version I was messing with.

Sent from my Incredible 2 using Tapatalk 2

ainako
05-22-2012, 11:33 AM
Well I'm SOL on the 30 mags :( Saiga seems the way to go. And I suppose I sacrifice the the lock back for the reliability. I'm guessing the saiga can take ar mags? Now all I have to do is source out dealer nearby. I may buy a spikes lower too, I may be in the process of buying a house in Montclair soon that might have to wait.

You need to read through the magazine and AW rifle stickies a few times.

Most Ak's don't lock back (a few specific oddball countries produced their incarnations of the AK platform that had a feature to lock back). Some of the "fixes" to do that are different followers in the magazines, which is worthless. As soon as you pop out the mag the carrier slams forward.

I wouldn't call it a problem, its just part of the rifle. Yes the saiga is fine.

where are the magazines and sorry but what does AW stand for? Thanks for the help guys! I'm hoping to be a more active community member here

zfields
05-22-2012, 11:51 AM
Well I'm SOL on the 30 mags :( Saiga seems the way to go. And I suppose I sacrifice the the lock back for the reliability. I'm guessing the saiga can take ar mags? Now all I have to do is source out dealer nearby. I may buy a spikes lower too, I may be in the process of buying a house in Montclair soon that might have to wait.



where are the magazines and sorry but what does AW stand for? Thanks for the help guys! I'm hoping to be a more active community member here

Mother saiga does not take ar mags. There are a couple adapters out there for them, but takes a little work.

Aw =assault weapon

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boamedt
05-22-2012, 12:02 PM
Well I'm SOL on the 30 mags :( Saiga seems the way to go. And I suppose I sacrifice the the lock back for the reliability. I'm guessing the saiga can take ar mags? Now all I have to do is source out dealer nearby. I may buy a spikes lower too, I may be in the process of buying a house in Montclair soon that might have to wait.



where are the magazines and sorry but what does AW stand for? Thanks for the help guys! I'm hoping to be a more active community member here

Most saigas have the bho,its just manual

ainako
05-22-2012, 12:27 PM
whats bho?

Baconator
05-22-2012, 12:28 PM
whats bho?

Bolt hold open

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MrPlink
05-22-2012, 12:39 PM
It's illegal to buy/import/manufacture 10+ rounds in CA. You had to own them prior to the ban in 2000

re-read the PC, it is not illegal to purchase. It is however, illegal to sell.

Baconator
05-22-2012, 12:49 PM
re-read the PC, it is not illegal to purchase. It is however, illegal to sell.

You re read it, it says "expose for sale," :43:

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ainako
05-22-2012, 1:03 PM
So does that mean that they can still be bought, just not in CA? That's still a pretty tight rope to walk and I don't think I will be doing that

Baconator
05-22-2012, 1:05 PM
So does that mean that they can still be bought, just not in CA? That's still a pretty tight rope to walk and I don't think I will be doing that

They can't be imported into California if you bought them elsewhere

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Freagan
05-22-2012, 1:09 PM
re-read the PC, it is not illegal to purchase. It is however, illegal to sell.

Ah you're right, I was just making a general sweep :o

Just wanted him to know that he was basically stuck with 10 rounders

zfields
05-22-2012, 1:09 PM
So does that mean that they can still be bought, just not in CA? That's still a pretty tight rope to walk and I don't think I will be doing that

Did you bother to read the sticky? Its pretty comprehensive.

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Bobby Ricigliano
05-22-2012, 1:13 PM
I'm an ultra newb and would like to build an AR in the future but would like something now just in case some ban hammers are laid down in the future. The reason why I want a featureless AK is that I would like to use 30 mags and have an easy maintenance, reliable firearm in (I know AK enthusiasts might not like this) 556. I was looking a the saiga iz or even a WASR, I'm not opposed to building one but I can't find much info on how or even if the parts are available to us. I'm in the 91706 area to give an idea of my location.

Allow me to square you away on having a featureless AK, since you asked.

One of two ways:

Buy a Saiga, don't convert it, and you are already there. Any legally possessed mags can be popped in and out all you like.

Or....


Get yourself a WASR or (Insert name of AK here). Slap on a Solar Tactical Grip Wrap, remove the Bullet Button device, and you are again good to go.

AK's are easier to make featurless than AR's. Go forth, shoot, and be happy!

SJgunguy24
05-22-2012, 1:18 PM
NATO, The approved NATO calibers I know of are 7.62X51mm, 5.56X45mm, and 9X19mm.

The Saiga 308, and 223 will work, the 9mm would need to be a custom job.



My 223 conversion. I made the stock, grip, and brake.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/SJgunguy24/1236.jpg

stix213
05-22-2012, 1:46 PM
Well I'm SOL on the 30 mags :( Saiga seems the way to go. And I suppose I sacrifice the the lock back for the reliability. I'm guessing the saiga can take ar mags? Now all I have to do is source out dealer nearby. I may buy a spikes lower too, I may be in the process of buying a house in Montclair soon that might have to wait.



where are the magazines and sorry but what does AW stand for? Thanks for the help guys! I'm hoping to be a more active community member here

Surefire brand mags for the Saiga have a last round hold open feature. Saiga rifles also typically include a bolt hold open button.

Allow me to square you away on having a featureless AK, since you asked.

One of two ways:

Buy a Saiga, don't convert it, and you are already there. Any legally possessed mags can be popped in and out all you like.

Or....


Get yourself a WASR or (Insert name of AK here). Slap on a Solar Tactical Grip Wrap, remove the Bullet Button device, and you are again good to go.

AK's are easier to make featurless than AR's. Go forth, shoot, and be happy!

Using greater than 10 round mags on a stock unmodified Saiga, regardless of if you have them legally, would be illegal due to 922r compliance issues. You'd need to get your foreign parts count down first to be legal.

Inquirer
05-22-2012, 2:16 PM
I was going to respond to this post with simply "Talk to SJGunGuy24 - he will direct you to, build, or or answer questions about whatever you want." He beat me to the punch. But before that he gave me a bunch of advice and examples of rifles to shamelessly steal cool ideas from.

Aside from that, pick a caliber, pick an approach, and pick a vendor. That is, 7.62, 5.56, 5.45; buy, convert, or build (WASR/Arsenal; Saiga conversion; homebuilt/build party/professionally built); and local store, online vendor, or pro shop like Mike's. I'd say 7.62, build at build party, and buy off whatacountry or akbuilder. Don't mess with hi caps, just stick with featureless because it won't get banned as quickly as the bullet button and its closer to the operation of a weapon that works universally.

Inq

tujungatoes
05-22-2012, 5:06 PM
Ainako There's a lot of legal hair splitting in this thread about "high" capacity magazines. Just know that if you didn't have them in 1999 you can't get them now. There are a couple of unlikely exceptions to that but for the most part no. There are more threads on "how do I gets 10+rds magazine" on CGN than you can shake a stick at(lets not make another one guys)....The rest of the advice in here is sound and you should definitely follow it.

Also since you seem to be confused by all the acronym's being thrown around. Take the time to read the calguns acronym thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=78606). It'll help you sort out all of the LOL, OLL, AW, FCG, BCG, FSB, RSB, and ROTFLOLBBQWTF's.

vintagedude88
05-22-2012, 6:43 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=96876&stc=1&d=1304742799

I have an AR lower waiting in the wings but this thing runs so reliably, I'm in no hurry to build it.