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Annie Oakley
05-08-2007, 1:09 PM
Oh my gosh! I just read the thread talking about assault weapons laws, and I thought I was reading something from a crazy person. :eek:

As I was reading the laws talking about the do's and don'ts of "assault weapons" ownership, I first started to get confused and then I got a headache, so I stopped. :confused:

I so can't believe what I was reading. I spent 22 years in the army, shooting, cleaning, qualifying and caring for my M-16 and now if I so much as touch one, I can go to jail. Can someone tell me how many different ways that is wrong?

Oh my gosh, I just remembered that we had a chance to get beyond this with Poochigian, and that butthead Jerry Brown won. :mad:

I just hope that John Roberts and his supreme court fix this. Yea, for the citizens of Washington D.C. :)

bwiese
05-08-2007, 1:35 PM
Oh my gosh, I just remembered that we had a chance to get beyond this with Poochigian, and that butthead Jerry Brown won. :mad:

Don't dis folks that aren't enemies and that can help.

Not every moonbeam is antigun. Poochigian was stoopid to even bring up the gun issue (he started it, and forced Brown to make noises about 50BMGs).
Brown has some libertarian tendencies and has made progun statements in the past.

Annie Oakley
05-08-2007, 2:12 PM
I can do this without being confrontational. Based on Jerry Browns campaign advertisements, and his very liberal stance as a governor, I perceived him as very antigun, regardless of what Poochigian may have done.

As I was reading one thread, I did notice that someone said that he gave the "thumbs up" to people at an NRA booth and was involved in the "Project Exile" program. If that's true then his campaign mislead me and he lost my vote because of it. I will say this, I am a registered republican with some libertarian leanings, but I have become a one issue voter when it comes to firearms restrictions. What that means is, I don't really care at this point what a politicians party affiliation is, if he is progun, then he is my ally. So, if I mis-spoke myself, it is only because Mr. Brown's campaingn comittee did a very poor job conveying his position on firearms.

Or did they? :)

tgriffin
05-08-2007, 2:24 PM
I have become a one issue voter when it comes to firearms restrictions. What that means is, I don't really care at this point what a politicians party affiliation is, if he is progun, then he is my ally.


Becareful Annie... politicians have been known to try to change their stripes even a year or so before the general or even primary elections.... If evidence is needed, look at Mitt Romney. Somewhat long history of voting anti-gun, yet low and behold, in August became a life member of the NRA, and claimed to be a life-long hunter, when in reality had hunted twice, never having had a hunting license, and the closest thing to having/owning a gun is his son's firearm.

Being a single issue voter is fine, but make sure that the person (if they can be called that) "woo'ing" you for your vote has a history to match thier propoganda.

bwiese
05-08-2007, 2:30 PM
I can do this without being confrontational. Based on Jerry Browns campaign advertisements, and his very liberal stance as a governor, I perceived him as very antigun, regardless of what Poochigian may have done.

Your perceptions have little if no foundation. JB has made many many pro-gun statements in the past, esp in his "liberal" days. Some folks here on the left have actually made contact with his campaign/transition staff and have made favorable impression (and taken one away).

Please separate campaign hoo-haa from underlying philosphy. Candidates do not determine their campaign ads' content: otherwise they would always lose elections - these are all run by consultants for 'shock & awe' affect and to move the latest poll.

Furthermore, as mayor of Oakland he was actually more conservative than a lotta Republicans and generally had a pro-biz slant. During that period he acknowledged RKBA/2nd amendment right to own guns and said that "it wasn't the NRA folks robbing liquor stores"... in response to gun law questions.

As I was reading one thread, I did notice that someone said that he gave the "thumbs up" to people at an NRA booth and was involved in the "Project Exile" program. If that's true then his campaign mislead me and he lost my vote because of it. I will say this, I am a registered republican with some libertarian leanings, but I have become a one issue voter when it comes to firearms restrictions.

Then you are similar to myself.

You do have to look thru warped political goggles though. JB campaign did what they needed to to do appeal to the primary base which has antigun tendencies. They aren't gonna throw that huge support away to get some prospective fraction of the gunnies: reality just doesn't work that way.

I am just saying a public persona during 90 days of campaign vs actual background/sentiment are quite different. JB even said a lotta nasty things about BATF actions in the past (10+ yrs ago).

I would not expect Brown to be touting new gun laws or driving any gun legislation. (Because of party ties, he ain't gonna ask for revocation of laws, but that's largely not in his purview anyway.) You do notice that the Firearms Division got demoted to a Bureau, didn't you? That tells you where his focus is... he'll be looking at labor law, pensions, violent parolees (he suffered from them being dumped in Oakland when he was mayor), etc.

As I heard it, NRA tried to tell Poochigian to STFU about gun stuff and he instead stupidly put bait out there for the Brown *campaign* to jump at. Pooch had far less funds (and a bush-league Central valley campaign staff in a state-wide election) so he shouldn't have given opposition yet another way to attack him. Pooch was also a poor debater - Brown's wordplay and speaking skills are far far better, he comes from a first-class educational background, which helped downplay past perceptions of 'moonbeanism' during his 70s governancy.

Poochigian also suffered the problem that he was perceived by suburban metro area swing voters as a pro-life Bible thumper - the kiss of death amongst middle class folks that can read & write, and are scared of Creationism BS in the schools, and who vote 'pro choice'. If I were running a campaign for a CA statewide candidate that's 'pro-choice', middle of road, looks good, speaks well, I could have him pass out HK MP5s a and cases of ammo and still win against an 'pro-life'/'anti-choice' candidate that supported gun control.

We will get movement toward our progun side in CA when we can move gun stuff from left vs right to freedom vs don't-trust-the gov't - and when we can get progun R candidates who actually understand Bible thumping causes them to lose elections for statewide office. [You can readily make the assertion that SoCal Christian Conservatives are antigun, because they keep promoting candidates that can't win statewide office, and let the antigun left win these seats.]

Annie Oakley
05-08-2007, 6:02 PM
Wow! Isn't it amazing how powerful one line can be.

Getting back on track for a moment, I was more interested in the convoluted and utterly confusing laws there are in California regarding firearms. I only have my Springfield Armory XD subcompact 9mm and I really like it. But those of you who have spent the time and money collecting alot of firearms, make me wonder how you can keep track of all the laws with their little technicalities and nuances. Like I said at the begining before I caused a total train wreck with one itsy bitsy sentence, I tried to read all the things that one thread was talking about regarding the laws and the different things that make a rifle a "dangerous weapon" and I quit because I just started to get confused and I'm not going to buy one unless it's like the one the army issued to me......I love rock and roll. :)

Too bad, California decided to go the way of the east coast instead of going the way of states like Nevada, Arizona or Florida. I'd be willing to go through the process to get an M-16 back. I totally enjoyed shooting an M-16.

TTFN

bwiese
05-08-2007, 6:30 PM
[QUOTE=Annie Oakley;604902]Wow! Isn't it amazing how powerful one line can be.

Getting back on track for a moment, I was more interested in the convoluted and utterly confusing laws there are in California regarding firearms. I only have my Springfield Armory XD subcompact 9mm and I really like it. But those of you who have spent the time and money collecting alot of firearms, make me wonder how you can keep track of all the laws with their little technicalities and nuances. [QUOTE]

I actually enjoy the fight.

Sometimes we can use their own stuff against them. Just 15-16 months ago few thought we'd ever see AR receivers in ordinary folks' hands.

Even our own assembly realized the hole it dug itself into: they passed ACR73, which said they themselves are confused by all the firearms laws and they really need to be cleaned up. (This may actually help in court cases when prosecutor starts arguing 'legislative intent'.)

I'm impressed to see quite a few folks here on Calguns take the time to delve in and achieve understanding.

Once they've done that, then they wanna get politically active - and last year, not a single antigun law passed because of gun folks active involvement and NRA backing.

M. Sage
05-08-2007, 6:31 PM
Like I said at the begining before I caused a total train wreck with one itsy bitsy sentence, I tried to read all the things that one thread was talking about regarding the laws and the different things that make a rifle a "dangerous weapon" and I quit because I just started to get confused and I'm not going to buy one unless it's like the one the army issued to me......I love rock and roll. :)

TTFN

That attention to the little stuff (causing a "train wreck" over one little sentence) is how they've done it so far. :D

At this point, I own nothing even resembling an AW.. for now.

Oh, and welcome to CalGuns!

MedSpec65
05-08-2007, 6:38 PM
Jerry Brown simply PRESIDES over the political office he occupies. Oakland is the same sewer today as the day he was elected Mayor. Don't expect this political animal to do much about ANYTHING, especially guns. Radioactive. Voters elect empty suits like this for the same reason they eat Ben&Jerry's ice cream: Name recognition.

Annie Oakley
05-08-2007, 6:56 PM
So, let me ask those of you who are in the know about this, can Jerry Brown recommend that the laws regarding "assault weapons".....who came up with that term anyway.......be repealed? Or better yet, can he recommend that those laws be repealed that would bring California into the main stream with other states? I'm assuming by what I've read, that making the firearms illegal that are outlawed in California have done nothing to decrease violent crime.

Perceptions can be deceiving, but based on what I've read here, and on the NRA website, firearms laws have done nothing to decrease violence.

I really do appreciate everyones input, even the ones that become assertive coversations. :D

spgk380
05-08-2007, 8:30 PM
States seem to have taken generally three different routes.

1. Decreasing gun control (midwest/south)
2. Banning lots of guns, but adhering to a more or less individual rights mindset (California)
3. Not focusing on banning guns, per se, but requiring "may issue" permits for handguns or semi-autos (Massachusetts)

(2) and (3) both have their drawbacks. For example, if you can get a gun permit in the northastern US, then you can have hi caps, often carry concealed and have certain AWs that you can't have in CA. In fact, the gun license and the concealed carry license are one in the same. But you have no right to own a gun. The system in MA is very similar to that in Canada. In CA, a lot of guns are banned outright, but anybody with a clean record has the right to buy a gun. Personally, I prefer (2) over (3). Better to have a gun than no gun at all.

In the North Eastern US, the vast majority of people really, truly, firmly believe that the second amendment applies only to militias, and that a person doesn't have a right to own a gun. They consider it a privilege, like a driver's license. Its kind of odd, but thats how they were all raised for decades and decades. In fact, the vast majority of people I've met who have lived in the northeastern US all of their life are really terrified of guns and have never even actually seen one before. Its like some kind of strange western, anachronistic relic---like a Mayan temple or something to them.

Its like the cigarette smoking ban here in California. I think nothing of voting to jack up the tax rate to milk the smokers for all they are worth because I don't smoke and I don't have any friends or family that do either. Same thing with firearms. To somebody in NYC or Boston, banning guns is like banning vacuum tube computers or bloodletting---they don't even understand what the ruckus from the NRA is all about---they're just some obnoxious group of contrarians hell bent on preserving some sort of three hundred year old through back like the third amendment.

If you think about it, the people in large cities like LA, SF, NYC, Boston, DC, etc. have created their gun violence problem by growing to such mammoth proportions that, like rats in a cage, they let the gang problem spiral out of control. And then, some guy who has lived out in the boondocks all his life, or even some guy who watched LA go from suburban to urban, finds that the same people who moved into HIS city in the first place and created this violent mess, are now antagonizing him for being the source of their problems, which were not present when he was there a long time before they were.

Everybody knows that people from NYC, for example, believe they are the center of the universe--just ask one. They think nothing of instituting draconian gun bans on the Federal level, that affect people all over the country, just so they have a scapegoat for their crime problem---especially since any study ever done has concluded that hiring additional police (which costs $$$ for the city, whereas a gun ban is free to them) is much more effective than any gun ban has ever been shown to be (Washington DC anybody?). And from their perspective, why not? I mean, why spend even $10 million more to hire additional police to take care of their own problem just so some "redneck" in Virginia can own something as useless, uninteresting, and anachronistic as a firearm? Thats how the Brady Bunch views the debate.

Kestryll
05-08-2007, 8:42 PM
Poochigian also suffered the problem that he was perceived by suburban metro area swing voters as a pro-life Bible thumper - the kiss of death amongst middle class folks that can read & write, and are scared of Creationism BS in the schools, and who vote 'pro choice'.
Okay Bill, now you are getting outright insulting and offensive to me.
I am one of those 'pro-life Bible thumpers', I am a poor example of a Christian but a Christian none the less.
I assume this means that I can neither read nor write?
I do not agree with ANY form of broad brush description of anyone. It is usually in error and frequently makes the artist look the fool.
Do you question my commitment to our rights?
We will get movement toward our progun side in CA when we can move gun stuff from left vs right to freedom vs don't-trust-the gov't - and when we can get progun R candidates who actually understand Bible thumping causes them to lose elections for statewide office.
'Bible-thumping' only means something if you truly live the live and believe the Word and if you do that you stand a darn good chance of getting my vote.
You can readily make the assertion that SoCal Christian Conservatives are antigun, because they keep promoting candidates that can't win statewide office, and let the antigun left win these seats.
Actually, no you can NOT assert that, it is worse than mistaken it is a flat lie.
Do you think I am antigun?
Do you know enough about the Christian faith to know whether my belief in personal responsibility, freedom and duty to defend ones self comes from a secular mind set or from my faith?
If you read the Bible with anything other than the intent to deny, disprove or denigrate it you will find the the inherent liberties we fight so hard for are not only espoused but demanded.
But it's always easier to just ignore and dismiss that which we are not comfortable with.

Bill I don't care if you think Christianity is false or wrong, your beliefs are your own and you are free to have them. In fact disagree though I may with those beliefs I'd fight to preserve your right to them.
However your persistent and false use of all encompassing and denigrating proclamations and statements is not only tiring and annoying, it's insulting.
Your repeated comments evidence a level of obsessive hatred for Christianity that rivals the blind hatred some here have for the current Administration.
If you are so convinced that to be Christian is to be willing to sell our Second Amendment rights down the river then you have a problem to reconcile.
I am Christian and you can bet your *** I'm in this fight for our rights until the end. So how does that fit your blanket statements?


ETA:
I'm not trying to blast you Bill but blanket comments like that are just as divisive as proclaiming all Democrats and Liberals to be evil gungrabbers. Exactly how many pro gun Christians do you think would be willing to work with us after reading these? How many will just keep moving on?

bwiese
05-08-2007, 9:28 PM
Kest,

I love you bro, and I may well have gone overboard -- but the reason why we have so many lefty antigunners in CA is precisely because those identified as "Christian conservatives" and that are regarded as pro-gun cannot make it to statewide office in CA - it's a simple political fact, the numbers and polls repeatedly show it doesn't work.

All I am saying is that if we can remove some of this perception and get some middle of the road folks for state office who are progun then we will far better. I'll just use Tom McClintock as an example - and he's a true conservative, not necessarily a religious conservative. Orange County just can't translate statewide, that's all I am saying - and until folks realize that, things will stay the same.

My core statement is that the left and the all-important 'swing' voters in CA overwhelmingly have far higher concern for 'choice', ranking it 1st or 2nd on list of concerns. Moderates in CA even rate it 2-4 in various surveys. Gun control, by contrast, always ranks down 5th thru 8th even after some major crime: if we play our cards right we can play those numbers toward irrelevancy of gun control. Some folks will have to vote for some electable 'choice' candidates in primaries so that there are not an excess of antigun candidates in statewide office. I certainly do NOT doubt your commitment to progun cause - esp runing Calguns!!

Kestryll
05-08-2007, 10:12 PM
We're good Bill, I just get a concerned when we look to be cutting anyone out of the battle. No worries mate! ;)
I think both of our core concerns are the same. We need to get pro gun people of all kinds to work together. We may be motivated by different things at times but our goals never change and our commitment never wavers.

Annie Oakley
05-08-2007, 10:28 PM
Bill:

I apologize if I don't appear knowledgeable about these matters, but then again that's why I'm here.....to learn. So, if you'll bear with me while I educate myself through you and the other people here that are willing to contribute to the forum, I would be very greatful for your understanding.

As for my perceptions, real or imagined, they were real to me, and those perceptions prevented me from voting for Jerry Brown, no matter how pro-gun he may or may not be.

As for my knowledge of Browns political track record, I spent more time out of California than in California from 1978 to 2000 while serving with the Army. While I was home on leave, and while Jerry Brown was governor of California, all I heard from my very conservative family members was how much he was messing things up. I don't know why I'm bothering to mention this, I just thought you would want to know.

bwiese
05-08-2007, 11:12 PM
As for my knowledge of Browns political track record, I spent more time out of California than in California from 1978 to 2000 while serving with the Army. While I was home on leave, and while Jerry Brown was governor of California, all I heard from my very conservative family members was how much he was messing things up. I don't know why I'm bothering to mention this, I just thought you would want to know.

Thank you for your service!

Yes, JB was a bit nutty. I do think he has matured a bit. I grew up during Moonbeam days.

JB is not, and will not be a problem in CA. There's actually a chance he can be a modicum of help: he has a big union base of support, including old-line unions (i.e, crusty skilled labor guys that work with their hands and own guns, as opposed to SEIU immigrant janitors).

Our problem in CA is legislators.

For example, right now in San Francisco, one far left Assemblywoman (Carole Migden) is trying to appear more antigun/anti-NRA than her far-left opponent (Mark Leno, on the Assy public safety committee). Neither really gives a damn about guns except to use the issue to bat about her primary opponent.
It could just as well have been about the toxicity of moth repellant next month.

Fortunately, most gun law proposals are coming from freshman/junior members
as NRA and allied folks have made things painful for senior folks to propose new legislation. The junior guys haven't learned that it's painful to deal with us. The senior folks may support these laws, but they don't wanna waste time/effort/staff time when their phone switchboards are glowing red. So it's junior guys like Mike Feuer who throw out idiocies like the microstamping bill - or their legislative aides, who really do much of the work.

Our strategy for the future in CA - btwn NRA and general gunnies like Calgunenrs - is to focus efforts at the right time and make the phone lines burn, along with filling up mailboxes. Most CA gun bills pass or fail by only a couple of votes, the rest are fairly fixed/known. Focusing on the fence sitters, making them uncomfortable with jammed phone lines, etc., praising them and supporting them when they vote our way, and having the right people offer 'political cover' bills that sound antigun so they don't have to really vote for a truly terrible antigun bill all play into winning. I think we can repeat 2006 wins: we're unified, we have far more people on the ground than the Brady types do.

mikehaas
05-09-2007, 8:19 AM
...while Jerry Brown was governor of California, all I heard from my very conservative family members was how much he was messing things up. I don't know why I'm bothering to mention this, I just thought you would want to know.
Did your family tell you that, as mayor of Oakland and governor of CA, Brown had not signed a gun control measure?

The big logic hole you are falling into is believing that gun-rights is a conservative issue. The worst gun control politician California has ever had, IMO, was Republican Dan Lungren - I believe he can rightfully be called the Father of Gun Confiscation in America. Just do a search for "confiscation Lungren" in any major search engine and you'll see this page at the top...
http://nrawinningteam.com/states/Lindex.html

Gun Control is not a liberal/conservative issue. In my personal opinion, the most stalwart defender of gun-rights that has even been in the CA legislature was Rod Wright, an extremely liberal and black assemblyman from Watts, but was known to physically toss Democrat staffers against the wall for messing with his pro gun bills. Was 100% NRA.
http://calnra.com/caspecial/rodw/

When termed out of the Assembly, he ran for a seat on the LA city council, with NRA's support of course...
http://calnra.com/calnra/rodw/
However, certain "say they're pro-gun" local folks actually cared less about gun-rights than their perceived "conservative" politics and worked against him. Wright was defeated and a rabid anti-gunner was then elected in that seat. Yeah, those who oppose NRA are so "brilliant" it makes one sick.

Sometimes, the so-called "conservatives" are gun-rights worst enemy.

Mike

bwiese
05-09-2007, 9:37 AM
Sometimes, the so-called "conservatives" are gun-rights worst enemy.


Thank you, Mike. Spot on, bro...

(And I'm pretty conservative myself.)

Annie Oakley
05-09-2007, 11:07 AM
Okay guys, thanks, I feel duly and appropriately chastised and educated. I guess I'll take a wait and see approach to Mr. Brown for the moment and see if your adulation of him is well earned by him. For those of you that think my comments were somewhat irreverent regarding Mr. Brown, I have all the respect in the world for the office, rank, position, or whatever honorable title a person might hold, even if I don't like the person. I think we've all been there a time or two. So, that's kind of how I feel about this right now. Thanks for all of your feedback.

bwiese
05-09-2007, 11:22 AM
While we might not agree with the DOJ on stuff, we should always address the DOJ professionally, because the other route is unproductive and doesn't help our cause.

Actually calling the DOJ Bureau of Firearms on their lawless misbehavior and technical incompetence is fair game. We should give them all the respect they deserve, which is none.

The BoF is still being run as shill organization to the Brady Campaign thru the offices of the Deputy AG (Firearms), Alison Merrilees. She has proposed, and tried to force thru, illegal regulations, she has distorted the regulatory process, and only gave written approval to OLL receiver purchases out of vindictiveness/spite because she thought we'd waste our money on paperweights that could not be built into rifles in any form.

Their senior agent, Iggy Chinn, is technically incompetent for the job he holds. His reading abilities are questionable. He's arrested folks for pistol grips that were nonreceivers (HK grip frames at Pomona show, perfectly legal), seized rifles that were perfectly legal (and which his Div. management agreed upon - the Robinson Arms M96). He runs largely unsupervised and issued approvals for modifications to listed firearms that he had no business doing (you can't take a "Colt AR15" out of "series status").

However, there is gold in them thar hills, so to speak. The last 1.5+ years of DOJ missteps has given us a variety of ammunition in attacking CA gun laws.

I personally am a lobbyist for Alison and Iggy staying on in DOJ as I think at this point they are, de facto, working for our cause even if in the short term they are irritants. In fact, as I have read thru her massive amounts of writing, I have evolved into one of Alison's biggest fans: I really misjudged her before and I'm hoping Rick Oules (DOJ Dir. of LE Div) appoints her head of the BoF.

hoffmang
05-09-2007, 1:55 PM
Here here! Alison and Iggy forever!

-Gene

Annie Oakley
05-09-2007, 2:11 PM
I don't want to hurt their feelings if they read these posts like I've been told they do, but you make Allison and Iggy almost sound like Colonel Klink and Sergeant Schultz. :D

KenpoProfessor
05-09-2007, 2:16 PM
I don't want to hurt their feelings if they read these posts like I've been told they do, but you make Allison and Iggy almost sound like Colonel Klink and Sergeant Schultz. :D


Wow, what an analogy and very true. Hogan's Heroes of the BOF :D

BTW, thanks for your service to our country Annie.:)

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

bwiese
05-09-2007, 2:42 PM
I don't want to hurt their feelings if they read these posts like I've been told they do, but you make Allison and Iggy almost sound like Colonel Klink and Sergeant Schultz. :D

Iggy: "I approved those welded-up Colt Roberti-Roos guns....."

Alison: "I see noooooothing...." (Schultz voice)

Annie Oakley
05-09-2007, 5:13 PM
Thank you Kenpo and thank you to everyone else that acknowledged my military service. It was truly my honor.

KenpoProfessor
05-09-2007, 5:23 PM
Thank you Kenpo and thank you to everyone else that acknowledged my military service. It was truly my honor.

Well, one vet to another (11yrs USAF 1980-1991), you're very welcome, and sad to see you had to come back to the Draconian state of CA gun laws. Things are looking up though. We're pushing boundaries everyday, and people like Matt Corwin are making the extreme sacrifice for which we owe him a great debt of gratitude.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

.223
05-09-2007, 7:11 PM
I don't want to hurt their feelings if they read these posts like I've been told they do, but you make Allison and Iggy almost sound like Colonel Klink and Sergeant Schultz. :D


I was thinking Sgt. Carter and Gomer Pyle.


Shazam, shazam!

Annie Oakley
05-09-2007, 8:02 PM
And thank you Kenpo for your service. As for California, I don't mind standing on the front lines of the battle for the second amendment. After all, like you, I promised to protect and defend the constitution of the United States from ALL enemies, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC. Whether it's bullets or a pen, it's the samething. Besides, I can work on my tan lines. :)