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Kenji8
05-21-2012, 9:19 PM
...

Chameleon Loco
05-21-2012, 9:24 PM
http://m.publicsurplus.com/sms/docviewer/aucdoc/Remington%20Shotguns-diff.%20between%20870%20model%20types.pdf?auc=5562 36&docid=3346989
This is the difference of the 870 Express and police models. Though the Remington 870 Police will be a little more expensive I think its worth the extra money because of the parts and the name.

NYCShooter
05-22-2012, 12:45 AM
http://m.publicsurplus.com/sms/docviewer/aucdoc/Remington%20Shotguns-diff.%20between%20870%20model%20types.pdf?auc=5562 36&docid=3346989
This is the difference of the 870 Express and police models. Though the Remington 870 Police will be a little more expensive I think its worth the extra money because of the parts and the name.

The Remington marketing piece you referenced is dated and inaccurate. You think the Police is "worth the extra money because of the parts and the name"? :eek: The difference in the easily replaced small parts is about $30, so what, exactly, is the name worth? Have you owned either?

To the OP: Here is the deal with the Police vs. the Express (and I have owned several of each).

Generally, out of the box, the Police will have a smoother action, as they are finished a little better. This can easily be remedied with 0000 steel wool and shooting, over time: no big deal to me, although others may differ on how important this is to them.

The following are the ONLY internal parts that are different between the Express and the Police:

1. The trigger housing on the Police is pressed metal, that on the Express is polymer - advantage Express, as the polymer trigger housing is known to be more durable (ask any Remington armorer). I have bent a few Police guards, but have never damaged an Express guard. Note: I have recently learned that some of the newer P guns are now also using the polymer trigger guards.

2. The extractor on the Police is forged, the Express is MIM. Upgrade the extractor: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=10745/Product/EXTRACTOR Cost $14.99 (I always replace the extractor, but have never seen a MIM extractor break on an Express).

3. The Police has a stronger carrier dog follower spring than the Express. This is also an easily upgrade: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=10763/Product/CARRIER-LATCH-SPRING It is listed as a carrier latch spring for the 1100 and 11-87, but this is the correct spring used in the Police. Cost $4.84 The interesting thing is that Remington charges the same for either spring (the P is black, and that is the only way to tell them apart). So why doesn't Remington use the same spring in both guns? Marketing.

4. The Police uses a stronger magazine spring on the 6+1 versions (I believe that both 4+1 versions now use the same spring). Purchase a new spring from Wolff: http://www.gunsprings.com/Rifles%20%26%20Shotguns/REMINGTON/870,%20878,%2011-48,%20SPT-48,%20SPT-58/cID2/mID108/dID216#606 Cost $8.99

5. Sear spring - As of several years ago both versions now use the identical spring (the one from the Express).

Those are the only differences that matter between the Express and the Police; the rest is simply marketing. Most of the custom 870 builders, such as Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, and AI&P Tactical use the 870 Express platform because it is basically the same gun at a lower cost. Purchase an Express, use the money saved to buy ammo, and practice, practice, practice.

CharlesV
05-22-2012, 7:07 AM
NYC thanks for the post.

For any reason do you recommend changing any parts on that list in an older 870 WM?

Speaking of dated info, people might like this 1969 vid of Remington factory. Amazing workmanship.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXh9q4TnCNw&feature=related

333Ronin-san
05-22-2012, 9:49 AM
Ah, thank you for confirming what I've been gathering. I think overall maintenance of your shotgun lubed also cleaned after every use and not let it sit in your gun bag a collect dust and rot also helps to have an optimal functioning weapon. Generally speaking.

My only other choice was the XCS marine magnum. I cannot even find one now. I'm more than happy to get an Express or Tactical tho.

aippi
05-22-2012, 10:36 AM
Nothing to add as NYCShooter said it all and is correct.

NYCShooter
05-22-2012, 1:10 PM
NYC thanks for the post.

For any reason do you recommend changing any parts on that list in an older 870 WM?

Speaking of dated info, people might like this 1969 vid of Remington factory. Amazing workmanship.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXh9q4TnCNw&feature=related

You may want to change the springs, because over time, with a lot of use, the springs on any gun become fatigued and should be replaced. The only other upgrade would be the flex-tab. Look at your carrier; if it does not have a u-shaped cutout, or "tab", you may want to upgrade it with the flex-tab upgrade kit: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=10934/Product/CARRIER-CONVERSION-KIT-FLEXITAB-BLACK The upgrade prevents solid lock-ups and allows easier clearing of jams.

trashman
05-22-2012, 1:15 PM
I have two (one in polished blue, and one parkerized with "Iron Works Gun Sights" rear sight (a KYSP overrun). I've also got the -P predecessor when it was just called the 870 Magnum.

Anyway, looks like Budsgunshop has some in stock:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=870p&x=0&y=0

...also, check shotgunworldforums for an old thread on a short run of the polished blue 870P's .

--Neill

WDE91
05-22-2012, 2:21 PM
Nothing to add as NYCShooter said it all and is correct.

JD is the 870 guru here and when he gives that stamp of approval that is impressive

Chameleon Loco
05-22-2012, 3:49 PM
[QUOTE=NYCShooter;8622231]The Remington marketing piece you referenced is dated and inaccurate. You think the Police is "worth the extra money because of the parts and the name"? :eek: The difference in the easily replaced small parts is about $30, so what, exactly, is the name worth? Have you owned either?

No I do not own an 870 but I am planning on purchasing one with an extendend remington le magazine extension. It may be more money for a police model but the time I would spend upgrading a 870 express and the shipping makes it worth it for me. I do realize that the Express is a better deal but I just like that it says police on it and it already has the upgrades. I am trying to make an 870 with all Le parts and acessories like a surefire tactical led light, night sights, and Speed Feed stock. I think Aipi sells a model like it.

Plisk
05-22-2012, 4:10 PM
Only other difference over the Police vs. Express is that the Police models come actually parkerized. Remington's parkerizing is exceptional quality.

As far as contacting PDs go, when they do auction off their weapons they use a company to organize the auction and to find a dealer to handle all the DROSing. I purchased a surplus 870P when Anaheim PD auctioned them off.

NYCShooter
05-22-2012, 4:25 PM
Only other difference over the Police vs. Express is that the Police models come actually parkerized. Remington's parkerizing is exceptional quality.

True, but a parkerized finish will rust if not kept oiled (think of it as an "oil sponge"), which is true of any finish (except professionally applied Armor-Tuff, NP3, Ceracoat, etc.)

Paradiddle
05-22-2012, 4:44 PM
The Remington marketing piece you referenced is dated and inaccurate. You think the Police is "worth the extra money because of the parts and the name"? :eek: The difference in the easily replaced small parts is about $30, so what, exactly, is the name worth? Have you owned either?

To the OP: Here is the deal with the Police vs. the Express (and I have owned several of each).

Generally, out of the box, the Police will have a smoother action, as they are finished a little better. This can easily be remedied with 0000 steel wool and shooting, over time: no big deal to me, although others may differ on how important this is to them.

The following are the ONLY internal parts that are different between the Express and the Police:

1. The trigger housing on the Police is pressed metal, that on the Express is polymer - advantage Express, as the polymer trigger housing is known to be more durable (ask any Remington armorer). I have bent a few Police guards, but have never damaged an Express guard. Note: I have recently learned that some of the newer P guns are now also using the polymer trigger guards.

2. The extractor on the Police is forged, the Express is MIM. Upgrade the extractor: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=10745/Product/EXTRACTOR Cost $14.99 (I always replace the extractor, but have never seen a MIM extractor break on an Express).

3. The Police has a stronger carrier dog follower spring than the Express. This is also an easily upgrade: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=10763/Product/CARRIER-LATCH-SPRING It is listed as a carrier latch spring for the 1100 and 11-87, but this is the correct spring used in the Police. Cost $4.84 The interesting thing is that Remington charges the same for either spring (the P is black, and that is the only way to tell them apart). So why doesn't Remington use the same spring in both guns? Marketing.

4. The Police uses a stronger magazine spring on the 6+1 versions (I believe that both 4+1 versions now use the same spring). Purchase a new spring from Wolff: http://www.gunsprings.com/Rifles%20%26%20Shotguns/REMINGTON/870,%20878,%2011-48,%20SPT-48,%20SPT-58/cID2/mID108/dID216#606 Cost $8.99

5. Sear spring - As of several years ago both versions now use the identical spring (the one from the Express).

Those are the only differences that matter between the Express and the Police; the rest is simply marketing. Most of the custom 870 builders, such as Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, and AI&P Tactical use the 870 Express platform because it is basically the same gun at a lower cost. Purchase an Express, use the money saved to buy ammo, and practice, practice, practice.

Is there a difference between the express and the wingmaster? I thought the receivers were different?

I'm curious - wanting to know before I buy.

NYCShooter
05-22-2012, 6:28 PM
Is there a difference between the express and the wingmaster? I thought the receivers were different?

I'm curious - wanting to know before I buy.

The receivers are the same, except that really old WM are chambered for 2 3/4" only (newer versions either 2 3/4" or 3"). The older WM also will need the flex-tab upgrade. The finish and level of finish are different, of course. But, it really depends on what your intended use of the gun is. For HD, for example, you would probably want to replace the barrel with a shorter, 18 1/2" one (which would have a different finish), add an extension tube, etc. I consider the WM the top of the line sporting gun and the Express and Police better suited, out-of-the-box, for tactical or HD use. As usual, WMMV.

Kenji8
05-22-2012, 7:39 PM
...

Plisk
05-22-2012, 7:43 PM
True, but a parkerized finish will rust if not kept oiled (think of it as an "oil sponge"), which is true of any finish (except professionally applied Armor-Tuff, NP3, Ceracoat, etc.)

The parkerizing is a more durable finish then the standard finish on the Express series, especially that cruddy paint on a lot of the Tactical Express series.

Any finish will rust with the proper amount of abuse/neglect. This is why I maintain all my weapons.

NYCShooter
05-22-2012, 8:05 PM
The parkerizing is a more durable finish then the standard finish on the Express series, especially that cruddy paint on a lot of the Tactical Express series.

Any finish will rust with the proper amount of abuse/neglect. This is why I maintain all my weapons.

I never said that parkerizing is not a better finish than the Express finish. I did say that it will definitely rust if not kept well-oiled. This is not the case with the other, far more durable finishes that I mentioned (and there are others).

NewbieDave
05-22-2012, 9:29 PM
I personally don't care which model... I'm in it for cheap 870. Got my grim my hand on a beat up Express with a 27" barrel for $170. A nice afternoon of cleaning and sanding... and knowing friends that can refinish... I have a clean functioning HD.

Several years back... picked up a CDC surplus Police for $275 with extension and side saddle from JK Supply in the commercial section. Look like it just sat on the racks for years... as you can see the rack rub on the barrel. Was super clean inside.

There's deals to be had for 870... just got to put the work in at looking.

marcusrn
05-22-2012, 10:12 PM
Sage advice NewbieDave!

I have owned 4-5 used 870 guns and the older ones seem bullet proof. Why not let someone else break them in for you.

marcusrn
05-22-2012, 10:12 PM
Sage advice NewbieDave!

I have owned 4-5 used 870 guns and the older ones seem bullet proof. Why not let someone else break them in for you.

CharlesV
05-23-2012, 1:17 AM
Thanks for the inputs, this thread is going well, picking up bits and pieces of good knowledge, especially for improving my older 870 WM. I bought it secondhand, id like to know the year of manufacture so i can know exactly what i have inside there.

tbhracing
05-23-2012, 1:31 AM
Tagged, some great information here as I am a 870 Express owner.

Plisk
05-23-2012, 1:51 AM
I never said that parkerizing is not a better finish than the Express finish. I did say that it will definitely rust if not kept well-oiled. This is not the case with the other, far more durable finishes that I mentioned (and there are others).

My 870 was left under my matress for approx. 7 months while I was traveling. I came back and pulled it out, bone dry for a very long time. Not a spec of rust.

Rust is a matter of environment as much as it is lack of maintenance. I've also kept various weapon parts that were media-blasted corrosion free for many months while we waited for the next go-around with the blueing or parkerizing tank. All they did was sit in a box wrapped in a clean rag on a shelf in my bench. No issues.

NYCShooter
05-23-2012, 5:49 AM
My 870 was left under my matress for approx. 7 months while I was traveling. I came back and pulled it out, bone dry for a very long time. Not a spec of rust.

Rust is a matter of environment as much as it is lack of maintenance. I've also kept various weapon parts that were media-blasted corrosion free for many months while we waited for the next go-around with the blueing or parkerizing tank. All they did was sit in a box wrapped in a clean rag on a shelf in my bench. No issues.

I never said it would rust in the absence of water, as that is a pretty obvious given and is true for even bare, untreated metal. Not to belabor the point, but I will rephrase: It will definitely rust, in a moist environment, if not kept well-oiled. This is not the case with the other, far more durable finishes that I mentioned (and there are others).

CharlesV
05-23-2012, 7:03 AM
It will definitely rust even in a dry environment given enough time. I pack guns with a very small amount of oil in poly VCI bags and no issues so far.

waho
05-23-2012, 9:42 AM
What exactly are the differences between the various 870 models, such as the standard 870, Express, Special Purpose, Wingmaster? Will the barrels exchange? Other parts?

Plisk
05-23-2012, 11:00 AM
I never said it would rust in the absence of water, as that is a pretty obvious given and is true for even bare, untreated metal. Not to belabor the point, but I will rephrase: It will definitely rust, in a moist environment, if not kept well-oiled. This is not the case with the other, far more durable finishes that I mentioned (and there are others).

You had said it would rust with a lack of oil, and I explained that's not the entire story.

Plisk
05-23-2012, 1:51 PM
OP, if you have the cash go for the Police model if you like either brand new or keeping a look out for the next Department that is clearing out inventory. One more thing that wasn't mentioned about the Police vs. Express, is that every single Police model weapon through Remington is test fired (700Ps are test fired for accuracy) with the Express/Commercial line, only 1 in 10 weapons are actually test fired. It's that added level of quality control that contributes to their higher cost.

In the end, yes an Express can and will work the same and be just as reliable, but if you just want to get something a little nicer for yourself and it's not going to break the bank go for it. You'll just enjoy it that much more.

tomhenry
05-23-2012, 10:56 PM
Tagged cause I might wanna be upgrading my express.

Ron-Solo
05-23-2012, 11:56 PM
The 870 is an excellent choice, regardless of "Police" or "Express" models. There are some different barrel configurations for the police models concerning sights and such. Those barrels can be ordered for the Express, but you generally won't find them in retail stores.

For Southern California, All State Police Equipment in Pomona has a variety of police models. They are currently doing the LASD conversion from Ithaca 37 pumps to the 870 with the collapsing recoil absorbing stock and Surefire front end.

NYCShooter
05-24-2012, 12:11 AM
The 870 is an excellent choice, regardless of "Police" or "Express" models. There are some different barrel configurations for the police models concerning sights and such. Those barrels can be ordered for the Express, but you generally won't find them in retail stores.

A few of the barrels can be found at Brownells or Midway, but all of the Police barrels can be ordered directly from Remington, at lower prices than at those two sources. Note, also, that the Police barrels generally cost less than the Express versions.

6172crew
05-24-2012, 1:02 AM
I bought a wing master back in 1985 when I lived in Germany, the barrel is marked like the HK proof mark:D anyhow, I like the finish on the older models and the Police barrel I found on fleabay works well for a cheap room broom.

aippi
05-24-2012, 4:36 AM
The 870P is not test fired. All barrel are proof tested not matter what model but none of the assembled weapons are test fired. The only Remington weapons that are test fired are the rifles that are built in the custom shop.

NYCShooter
05-24-2012, 1:24 PM
The 870P is not test fired. All barrel are proof tested not matter what model but none of the assembled weapons are test fired. The only Remington weapons that are test fired are the rifles that are built in the custom shop.

aippi, thanks for that information. When Plisk said, "One more thing that wasn't mentioned about the Police vs. Express, is that every single Police model weapon through Remington is test fired (700Ps are test fired for accuracy) with the Express/Commercial line, only 1 in 10 weapons are actually test fired. It's that added level of quality control that contributes to their higher cost", I did not think it was true, and you have confirmed it.

Plisk
05-24-2012, 3:33 PM
What I said in my previous post was exactly what was told to us at my Remington course.

With the Express weapons, you'll occasionally find one with what looks like an Iron Cross stamped on the right side of the barrel, that is the stamp they the 1/10 test fired weapon gets.

Kenji8
05-24-2012, 3:49 PM
...

NYCShooter
05-24-2012, 4:19 PM
What I said in my previous post was exactly what was told to us at my Remington course.

With the Express weapons, you'll occasionally find one with what looks like an Iron Cross stamped on the right side of the barrel, that is the stamp they the 1/10 test fired weapon gets.

You were told wrong. While it is probably true that, occasionally, a gun is randomly pulled from the production line and tested, this is no different than what happens during the manufacture of any other product, be it a car or a toaster. The company is simply verifying that the mass-production process has not introduced flaws into the system that will effect its performance.

Plisk
05-24-2012, 4:25 PM
You were told wrong. While it is probably true that, occasionally, a gun is randomly pulled from the production line and tested, this is no different than what happens during the manufacture of any other product, be it a car or a toaster. The company is simply verifying that the mass-production process has not introduced flaws into the system that will effect its performance.

I'm going to lean toward what I was taught by Remington.