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nporst
05-21-2012, 7:11 PM
I'm sure this has been discussed before so I will apologize ahead of time.
In California, San Diego County, Can I answer my front door with a loaded hostered pistol at my side openly visable? Also, can I answer my front door with a loaded concealed pistol? The second situation just makes good sense, the first seems like a good way to prevent repeat kunkleheads from coming to the door. Thanks for your answers and opinions.

tacksman
05-21-2012, 7:20 PM
Damn good question.

Dutch3
05-21-2012, 7:29 PM
Yes and yes.

welchy
05-21-2012, 7:29 PM
You can do whatever the f@&$ you want in your house.

Legasat
05-21-2012, 7:33 PM
Yes, just do not cut the grass in it unless you have a fenced yard.

Jason P
05-21-2012, 7:34 PM
You can do whatever the f@&$ you want in your house.

ROFL

Not quite anymore. But infinitely moreso than outside your home. Definitely OK to answer your door LOC/LCC.

GOEX FFF
05-21-2012, 7:35 PM
^^
Yes, as well as in your own place of business.

Librarian
05-21-2012, 7:46 PM
PC 25605 (a) Section 25400 and Chapter 6 (commencing with Section
26350) of Division 5 shall not apply to or affect any citizen of the
United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides
or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the
excepted classes prescribed by Chapter 2 (commencing with Section
29800) or Chapter 3 (commencing with Section 29900) of Division 9 of
this title, or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions
Code, who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the
citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business,
or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or
legal resident, any handgun.
(b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or
carry, either openly or concealed, shall be required of any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within
the excepted classes prescribed by Chapter 2 (commencing with Section
29800) or Chapter 3 (commencing with Section 29900) of Division 9 of
this title, or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions
Code, to purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or
concealed, a handgun within the citizen's or legal resident's place
of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or
lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident.
Don't step out on your porch ...

Dutch3
05-22-2012, 4:59 AM
PC 25605
Don't step out on your porch ...

Why not?

"...or on private property owned or
lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident. "

My private property is fenced, and I own it. It does include my porch.

Glock22Fan
05-22-2012, 8:35 AM
Why not?

"...or on private property owned or
lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident. "

My private property is fenced, and I own it. It does include my porch.

The question is not so much is there a fence, but can some member of the public, say the ubiquitous UPS driver, walk up to your front door?

If he or she can, then your front yard, and porch, fenced or not, is a public place.

If though you have a gated fence, and keep that gate locked except when needed for access, then you are OK.

Stupid, and not how we would interpret the law, but that's the way the courts are interpreting it at present.

calif 15-22
05-22-2012, 9:24 AM
I'm sure this has been discussed before so I will apologize ahead of time.
In California, San Diego County, Can I answer my front door with a loaded hostered pistol at my side openly visable? Also, can I answer my front door with a loaded concealed pistol? The second situation just makes good sense, the first seems like a good way to prevent repeat kunkleheads from coming to the door. Thanks for your answers and opinions.


I know it is legal and all . . . just wondering what would be your method of carry if say a LEO was knocking at your door asking for info about a (insert random info question here).

Did not know about the locked vs unlocked gate in a fenced yard. Our yard is fenced but the gate is unlocked for mailman, ups etc. Good info thanks!

Blacky
05-22-2012, 9:27 AM
What about if you are in your attached garage (door open)?

JB-Norcal
05-22-2012, 10:42 AM
If you OC when you open your door, then the visitor knows you own a gun, and whoever they tell knows it too. It's not a deterrent, it advertising.
I remember in my school daze, the word got around that Joe Blow was packin', that made him a target for the organized hoods to lighten his load. Concealed is best. Be open with attitude and sharp in speech to keep knuckleheads away. JMO

alfred1222
05-22-2012, 10:47 AM
If you OC when you open your door, then the visitor knows you own a gun, and whoever they tell knows it too. It's not a deterrent, it advertising.
I remember in my school daze, the word got around that Joe Blow was packin', that made him a target for the organized hoods to lighten his load. Concealed is best. Be open with attitude and sharp in speech to keep knuckleheads away. JMO

i agree, if youre gunna carry, carry concealed.

Glock22Fan
05-22-2012, 11:41 AM
What about if you are in your attached garage (door open)?

Been answered many times. Just the same as being in your house with the door open. As long as you are present and you can shut the door when you wish.

In other words, legal, but don't step past the threshold

voiceofreason
05-22-2012, 12:13 PM
I won't even attempt to speak to the legalities, but it may be prudent to keep the firearm concealed when answering the door.

No point in stirring people up unnecessarily.

Although something may be legal, it doesn't mean people won't go apesh*t and call the police.

Yes, you may be legal and right... but you still have to deal with it.

Slightly slower draw concealed, but you're still armed.

CitaDeL
05-22-2012, 12:19 PM
If you OC when you open your door, then the visitor knows you own a gun, and whoever they tell knows it too. It's not a deterrent, it advertising.
I remember in my school daze, the word got around that Joe Blow was packin', that made him a target for the organized hoods to lighten his load. Concealed is best. Be open with attitude and sharp in speech to keep knuckleheads away. JMO

Does your recollection include an accurate anecdote on how sucessful the organized hoods were in lightening his load? If they weren't, your assertion is mooted and the exposed firearm slides into the 'deterent' slot.

Glock22Fan
05-22-2012, 12:26 PM
I won't even attempt to speak to the legalities, but it may be prudent to keep the firearm concealed when answering the door.

No point in stirring people up unnecessarily.

Although something may be legal, it doesn't mean people won't go apesh*t and call the police.

Yes, you may be legal and right... but you still have to deal with it.

Slightly slower draw concealed, but you're still armed.

If you are concerned about to whom you might be opening the door (and if so, why are you opening it?) use the Bootlegger draw.

In other words, hold your firearm in your hand hanging down by your side and slightly behind you, so the visitor can't see it.

Really fast draw, inconspicuous, and if it is someone you then recognize as harmless, you can probably dispense with the firearm without the visitor even realizing you had it.

Suggestion: this works best if your firearm is not a shootie or EBR. :D

Blacky
05-22-2012, 12:35 PM
Good to know, I always thought it was considered to be brandishing a firearm, I mean if you're walking around in your garage with the door open... building a birdhouse or something with your 1911 on your hip.

My friend is a FFL dealer, he works out of his house and garage currently. He usually has all the doors open including his safe. He will often demo or show weapons in his garage. I fear for his family sometimes. Maybe I'm paranoid, I've been called worse.

M1A Rifleman
05-22-2012, 12:40 PM
The question is not so much is there a fence, but can some member of the public, say the ubiquitous UPS driver, walk up to your front door?
.

Uhm..., the difference between a place of business and say your front porch interms of a public access is what? Private Property is just that, as it says nothing regarding gates or public access.

Maybe what your trying to say is that courts are ignoring the actual law, making new law by adding requirements that you can have guns in a "public" place, or where the public could be.

Librarian
05-22-2012, 1:30 PM
Uhm..., the difference between a place of business and say your front porch interms of a public access is what? Private Property is just that, as it says nothing regarding gates or public access.

Maybe what your trying to say is that courts are ignoring the actual law, making new law by adding requirements that you can have guns in a "public" place, or where the public could be.

Please read the wiki article -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Unlicensed_Concealed_Carry -- especially the court cases discussed.

M1A Rifleman
05-22-2012, 1:41 PM
Please read the wiki article -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Unlicensed_Concealed_Carry -- especially the court cases discussed.

Yes, I have seen this link. The actual law regarding carry/possession still reads to exempt private property. What I said stands in that courts are making new law, or at least interpreting it in a fashion that is way beyond to the intent of what is actually written. The first case Melton would agree with my statement.

HBrebel
05-22-2012, 1:51 PM
You can do whatever the f@&$ you want in your house.

Well said sir!!! Why do more people not think like this? If you want to keep your rights you gotta defend them.

Glock22Fan
05-22-2012, 2:10 PM
Uhm..., the difference between a place of business and say your front porch interms of a public access is what? Private Property is just that, as it says nothing regarding gates or public access.

Maybe what your trying to say is that courts are ignoring the actual law, making new law by adding requirements that you can have guns in a "public" place, or where the public could be.

No. If I wanted to say they were ignoring the law, I know English well enough so to say.

However, there is a difference between private property that is private and private property that is open to the public. Privately owned property can still be a public place.

The law says "private property owned or
lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident " The courts are effectively saying that there can also be Public property owned by the citizen, and that this is different from private property owned by the citizen.

And, as the cases Librarian point out, that is what they are ruling on.

So, they are not ignoring the law at all, just interpreting it differently than you would like them to.

To say somewhere is private in the sense that you would like, the courts have ruled that to be private there has to be some kind of challenge or barrier - hence the locked gate - front door or garage door, preventing free access. After all, you must admit that your front yard is far more public than is your bathroom, so there are different degrees of privacy.

mej16489
05-22-2012, 6:21 PM
Concealed & Unloaded on Private Property you own or possess is perfectly legal regardless of whether or not its open to the public...

...What you can get you busted is being Loaded if in a 'public place' in an 'incorporated city' or a 'prohibited discharge area of unincorporated territory'

gotshotgun?
05-22-2012, 6:42 PM
I wonder about brandishing laws regarding carrying in the open where others can see you.

CitaDeL
05-22-2012, 7:09 PM
I wonder about brandishing laws regarding carrying in the open where others can see you.

PC417

elements of the crime of brandishing are exhibiting a firearm in a "rude, angry, or threatening manner"....

Kodemonkey
05-22-2012, 7:44 PM
I wonder about brandishing laws regarding carrying in the open where others can see you.

From my understanding, a holstered sidearm is not considered brandishing. If it were, the UOC movement would all have been slammed with brandishing charges.

Once it leaves the holster... that's brandishing. If it leaves the holster you better be in direct peril and intend to use the gun.

Meplat
05-22-2012, 8:22 PM
If you are concerned about to whom you might be opening the door (and if so, why are you opening it?) use the Bootlegger draw.

In other words, hold your firearm in your hand hanging down by your side and slightly behind you, so the visitor can't see it.

Really fast draw, inconspicuous, and if it is someone you then recognize as harmless, you can probably dispense with the firearm without the visitor even realizing you had it.

Suggestion: this works best if your firearm is not a shootie or EBR. :D

You learn something every day. Iíve been using that for years, but never heard it called the bootlegger draw before.

Meplat
05-22-2012, 8:36 PM
I would also like to know why a business that is open to the public is different than your front porch? Is there a specific exemption for businesses or something?

No. If I wanted to say they were ignoring the law, I know English well enough so to say.

However, there is a difference between private property that is private and private property that is open to the public. Privately owned property can still be a public place.

The law says "private property owned or
lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident " The courts are effectively saying that there can also be Public property owned by the citizen, and that this is different from private property owned by the citizen.

And, as the cases Librarian point out, that is what they are ruling on.

So, they are not ignoring the law at all, just interpreting it differently than you would like them to.

To say somewhere is private in the sense that you would like, the courts have ruled that to be private there has to be some kind of challenge or barrier - hence the locked gate - front door or garage door, preventing free access. After all, you must admit that your front yard is far more public than is your bathroom, so there are different degrees of privacy.

Librarian
05-22-2012, 11:43 PM
I would also like to know why a business that is open to the public is different than your front porch? Is there a specific exemption for businesses or something?

Yes. At least, the inside of one. A business owner without LTC may, by law, carry inside his business, loaded, either openly or concealed - but can't remain armed to go outside to help a customer or empty the trash.

As applied, the rule seems to be approximately 'it is ok to carry inside an area I can lock off and deny the public access'. So, your front door, a gated yard, the door to your business would be the kind of boundary.

Enforcement of that seems to be different in different places; on that we have only anecdotes.

Meplat
05-23-2012, 1:05 AM
Yes. At least, the inside of one. A business owner without LTC may, by law, carry inside his business, loaded, either openly or concealed - but can't remain armed to go outside to help a customer or empty the trash.

As applied, the rule seems to be approximately 'it is ok to carry inside an area I can lock off and deny the public access'. So, your front door, a gated yard, the door to your business would be the kind of boundary.

Enforcement of that seems to be different in different places; on that we have only anecdotes.

So, it seems that whether or not your gate is locked is a whimsical sometimes thing, depending on what the judge, DA, officer, feel like at the moment? Most of the knowledgeable folks here would, I think, agree that your back yard is a go. But most back yards have a gate also, and many, including mine are usually unlocked (good luck with my dogs). This would seem to be a real iffy area. Would a big fat beware of dog sign on your back gate be of any significance if it were unlocked? How about the same on the front? Many folks leave there back gates unlocked for meter readers.

It seems to me that one should use an abundance of caution in places that are very 2A unfriendly and maybe not worry so much in areas like mine where the authorities are 2A friendly (or they donít last).

nporst
05-23-2012, 5:15 AM
When I started this thread with my question, I had no idea how far the discussion would go. Thanks for all who posted. It's just a shame that here in California we can't get more black and white answers to our gun issues.

Dutch3
05-23-2012, 6:03 AM
So, it seems that whether or not your gate is locked is a whimsical sometimes thing, depending on what the judge, DA, officer, feel like at the moment? Most of the knowledgeable folks here would, I think, agree that your back yard is a go. But most back yards have a gate also, and many, including mine are usually unlocked (good luck with my dogs). This would seem to be a real iffy area. Would a big fat beware of dog sign on your back gate be of any significance if it were unlocked? How about the same on the front? Many folks leave there back gates unlocked for meter readers.


I have always tended to consider a gate, even if unlocked, as presenting a "challenge" to anyone entering. If I have to open a gate to access an area, I know I am "entering" a place that is not normally freely accessible simply by walking in.

Then again, IANAL and agree it would probably be better to be cautious in more populated areas.

Bonedoc
05-23-2012, 6:22 AM
Excellent tread.
I think folks should carry concealed whenever they are at home or on their private property. Private property is 'never' open to the public nor is it considered 'legally' accessible to the public.
"In other words, hold your firearm in your hand hanging down by your side and slightly behind you, so the visitor can't see it." Exactly the way to open a door, out of sight but readily available... once verified, I slip it into a holster or pocket and no one is the wiser that they were 'that close.'
LE knocking on the door? Uniformed... verified... I wouldn't have the gun visible and I would, simply for the sake of 'good relations' have it nicely concealed. Love 'em or not cops have a (generally) tough job and no need to scare 'em by being overly legalistic.
I carry from the home to the garage but there is a 15' section that is not private, I carry 'very' concealed even though it is probably a moot point during those two seconds but some could be overzealous.
Learned a lot in this thread, thanks.