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atlas
05-08-2007, 12:58 AM
Two things I want to ask about.

When the listing on the roster is a description like this:

Rock Island 1911 A-1 CS Blue / Blue Steel

What do you do when:

1) All of these guns (including the ones tested according to Armscor USA in email) were parkerized. There were/are Armscor branded blued CS models, just not rock islands ones. The natural conclusion is that either it should not say "Rock Island" or should not say "Blue / Blue", and again Armscor says the blued part is a mistake.

2) They don't list a model number like they do with Springfields and several other companys, would any RIA 1911 A-1 that is a CS style and blued (but say it has a skeleton hammer and trigger) be allowed?


I am trying hard to understand what to do, besides just giving up and getting something else when this is what I want.

fairfaxjim
05-08-2007, 10:56 AM
Two things I want to ask about.

When the listing on the roster is a description like this:

Rock Island 1911 A-1 CS Blue / Blue Steel

What do you do when:

1) All of these guns (including the ones tested according to Armscor USA in email) were parkerized. There were/are Armscor branded blued CS models, just not rock islands ones. The natural conclusion is that either it should not say "Rock Island" or should not say "Blue / Blue", and again Armscor says the blued part is a mistake.

2) They don't list a model number like they do with Springfields and several other companys, would any RIA 1911 A-1 that is a CS style and blued (but say it has a skeleton hammer and trigger) be allowed?


I am trying hard to understand what to do, besides just giving up and getting something else when this is what I want.

Read the law behind the list:

12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating, oiling, or engraving.

I believe this does not include different metals, i.e. Stainless Steel cannot be substituted for steel.

The best way to see what you can get, if you are looking for new, is to contact your dealer and see if he can get it into Kali. for you.

~DEVO~
05-08-2007, 11:31 AM
MMMmmm... Interesting, [not to highjack, but to expand the thread]. Since an Auto Ord 1911A1 hand gun is legal to purchase in Cali, is it legal to buy the exact same NAME/MODEL of handgun but completly disassembled in KIT form?
I was not able to locate a thread on this subject (via search).

tenpercentfirearms
05-08-2007, 11:38 AM
The problem with that quote from the PC is the firearm that is different still has to be submitted and listed, it just doesn't have to go through the testing.

For example, Glock can submit their standard black Glock 27 for testing. They will not have to submit the Glock 27 OD for testing, but they will have to pay the fee and have it listed.

So you cannot buy a Glock 27 that is painted camo unless it is specifically listed on the approved handgun list.

bwiese
05-08-2007, 12:07 PM
MMMmmm... Interesting, [not to highjack, but to expand the thread]. Since an Auto Ord 1911A1 hand gun is legal to purchase in Cali, is it legal to buy the exact same NAME/MODEL of handgun but completly disassembled in KIT form?

The gun must be sold in 'as tested' form: that is, in working operational shape.

atlas
05-08-2007, 1:28 PM
So then it is not okay to order one of the CS models that is parkerized?

What if its used but coming from out of state?

Do used guns on the list orginally, but refinished have to be put back the way there were?

What about custom things like skeleton triggers and hammers?

Serpentine
05-08-2007, 1:37 PM
The problem with that quote from the PC is the firearm that is different still has to be submitted and listed, it just doesn't have to go through the testing.

For example, Glock can submit their standard black Glock 27 for testing. They will not have to submit the Glock 27 OD for testing, but they will have to pay the fee and have it listed.

So you cannot buy a Glock 27 that is painted camo unless it is specifically listed on the approved handgun list.


Common sense would dictate that the camo paint would be a "finish" difference, and would qualify categorically as the already approved and listed Glock Model 27.

I'm fairly sure that grip and sight differences are also not counted as separate models.




.

tenpercentfirearms
05-08-2007, 2:43 PM
Common sense would dictate that the camo paint would be a "finish" difference, and would qualify categorically as the already approved and listed Glock Model 27.

I'm fairly sure that grip and sight differences are also not counted as separate models.

They are. Look at the list of approved Glocks. They list separately the Glock 27 and the Glock 27 OD. These things do count when buying them new from a FFL. Of course once you buy your handgun, you can do what you want to do to it.

Do not apply common sense to our gun laws. They were not made with common sense in mind, but with governmental control.

atlas
05-09-2007, 1:36 AM
So if it was my example above, then if a friend were to purchase a handgun in another state and change its finish to match the one listed on the roster then it would be okay (assuming the listing is not by model number but rather by a more general description as above).

Not that it would be worth while to do, more just wondering about how all this stuff plays out.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

tenpercentfirearms
05-09-2007, 6:56 AM
It depends. The model numbers would have to be the same.

A lot of this is quite a gray area because unless the DOJ comes into the shop and finds a gun in DROS that doesn't match the safe list, how are they going to know? So if I do get a camo Glock 27 and I DROS it as a black Glock 27, once that gun leaves the shop, it is going to be hard for the DOJ to find out it was refinished before I sold it as opposed to after I sold it. That is as long as my customer doesn't sell me out.

After working in prison, I learned never to break any rules and rely on the inmates to keep their mouth shuts. You guys aren't inmates, but a camo Glock isn't worth losing my license over and I simply don't want to rely on a customer to keep me out of jail.

This law isn't about safety or effective law enforcement. It is about control, money, and increasing hassle in order to decrease sales. The whole thing has a lot of holes in it and the odds of the DOJ figuring out a lot of violations are pretty slim when you consider the thousands of handguns that are sold a day in California.

atlas
05-09-2007, 2:40 PM
For the dealers: When you go to DROS in the shop, do you see specific model numbers for all roster entries?

For instance the stock/model number for the below pistol description is supposedly: 54121
Is this number in the DROS application when you do it? or just the description below?

Even ones that are more of a generic description like this one:

Rock Island 1911 A-1 CS Blue / Blue Steel

If the model number is listed then maybe an FFL would feel comfortable ignoring the finish difference.