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pennys dad
05-20-2012, 7:16 AM
Gene

Lets lay the cards out. I took Nick's comment to heart and reached out to oaklander to see if we could try and bring your team and the CGN/C3 team together and talk and see if we could come to a common ground.
I have asked Kest to give our teams a private spot to plan a gathering so we can lay it all out and see if we can come to a common ground. Our 2 teams both work within the big top of Calguns and if we could just stop fighting we could probably win. I was thinking we could work out a time and date and agenda and bring our teams together at Murphys to work it out.
So, balls in your court. We can continue down this current road, or we can stop fighting and try and bring things together, your choice!

choprzrul
05-20-2012, 7:58 AM
If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Looks to me like Penny's Dad is working on solutions. Kudos to him.

.

wildhawker
05-20-2012, 8:34 AM
Jacob, you made your choices.

Too little, too late.

-Brandon

taperxz
05-20-2012, 8:44 AM
Jacob, you made your choices.

Too little, too late.

-Brandon

Brandon, it never hurts to simply LISTEN to anyone, I'm not suggesting you move your moral compass, but listening never hurt anyone or any situation;)

bigcalidave
05-20-2012, 9:28 AM
If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Looks to me like Penny's Dad is working on solutions. Kudos to him.

.

Jacob, you made your choices.

Too little, too late.

-Brandon

Exactly.

hoffmang
05-20-2012, 9:36 AM
Jacob,

If you can show me a plan that's not platitudes (which so far is all you have) and that will result in a CRPA that is actually accountable to the members, I'm fine with that. However, you told me it was your plan or the highway last we chatted privately.

By your recent actions and not your words, CRPA can stoop to no level of low that you personally should hold them accountable for. Tony keeps persuading you to "just stay on" so that this community can just get insulted again.

-Gene

ptoguy2002
05-20-2012, 11:40 AM
How about considering unconventional methods?
Flyers with links to savecrpa.org at the upcoming Raahauge's fair, or at shooting events? Maybe hand out copies of the budget with a big red circle and "WTF?" on the $350K of employee costs. Stir the pot, and put some pressure on.
Might get you kicked out of the fair or shooting venue though.
Another note: savecrpa.org needs to have a little better intro on their front page, that concisely explains the problem before going into everybody's resignation letters. The site seams to lack proper presentation of material.

pennys dad
05-20-2012, 11:41 AM
so Gene you are saying no. is this correct?
this is just a yes or no answer. are you willing to sit down with the cgn/c3 team to work out our difference and start to work as a team? yes or no?

IPSICK
05-20-2012, 11:54 AM
This needed another thread?

Peter.Steele
05-20-2012, 12:02 PM
I have asked Kest to give our teams a private spot



http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/1544/youkeepusingthatwordz.jpg

pennys dad
05-20-2012, 12:13 PM
:D ROFL, Very Excellent Observation, Thank You

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/1544/youkeepusingthatwordz.jpg

USMCM16A2
05-20-2012, 12:20 PM
Guys,



To all parties concerned, this disunion is exactly what the antis want. They want us fighting amongst ourselves, so they can sneak bills in like SB1315. The fight is with them, not amongst ourselves. A2

G60
05-20-2012, 12:28 PM
No. This "disunion" and what it will ultimately result in is what they fear.

m03
05-20-2012, 12:38 PM
I have no idea what's going on here. Does anyone have a brief synopsis?

hoffmang
05-20-2012, 12:42 PM
so Gene you are saying no. is this correct?
this is just a yes or no answer. are you willing to sit down with the cgn/c3 team to work out our difference and start to work as a team? yes or no?

I said yes. However I'm hinting that wasting time without tangible and real goals is just wasting more time on tactics that only benefit the CRPA.

And the anti's don't care. They'd prefer to see CRPA remain ineffective however.

-Gene

goober
05-20-2012, 12:42 PM
These aren't the droids you're looking for....

zhyla
05-20-2012, 12:46 PM
Do you guys not have each other's phone numbers or something? Seriously guys, grownups don't need to work out their differences in a public internet forum.

jdberger
05-20-2012, 12:48 PM
I'll bring te tequila.

Kestryll
05-20-2012, 12:48 PM
http://nostromoone.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/those-really-were-the-droids-you-were-looking-for1.jpg

Kestryll
05-20-2012, 12:49 PM
I'll bring te tequila.

I don't drink tequila, tequila makes me ski!!

BamBam-31
05-20-2012, 12:52 PM
I have no idea what's going on here. Does anyone have a brief synopsis?

This.

DVSmith
05-20-2012, 12:58 PM
Has anyone done a poll of the CGN members that belong to CRPA to see if there is overwhelming consensus? If so, I was not asked. I don't mean a CGN thread poll that anyone can weigh in on.

blakdawg
05-20-2012, 1:04 PM
I'm not on any "team". I am a life member of NRA, am now in my sixth consecutive year of pay-as-you-go CRPA membership (having been an off-and-on member for approx 15 years now), and have given $ sporadically to CGF (and JPFO, and SAF) when I've liked something they've done.

In my mind, the big CRPA question is whether the current version should be allowed to die, should be shut down, or should be reformed with a new governance structure and new personnel. The current organization simply isn't viable over the long term.

The actions of the executives over the past six months have made it clear that the organization is being run by idiots; and they're more interested in protecting their current status (as paid employees, or unpaid figureheads) than in building/maintaining an effective long-term civil rights/shooting sports organization.

Over and over again, they've done things so poorly that I'd swear they were working from a PR or management textbook, but accidentally are working from the "never do this" list and haven't flipped the page to read the "do this stuff instead" chart. I don't just mean that I have minor arguments with the details or timing of how some things have been done - I mean that their behavior (a mailing to members re SaveCRPA; the C&D letters) is just off-the-scale inept and indefensible, morally and tactically.

Their recent actions have led me to grave doubts about the good faith of the people involved. I am reluctant to say that and have been reluctant to reach that conclusion because I'd prefer to work cooperatively with people who share a goal with me, even if we have different tactics or methods. I really don't want to see pro-gun people put energy into attacking each other when we should be putting that energy into promoting things that help us and attacking things that hurt us.

The problem with the current CRPA is that (a) they've got a fair amount of cash, and they're apparently willing to use it to attack other gun rights supporters, and (b) they present themselves (and are understood by the outside world) as CA's representatives of the NRA, and as a/the leader in CA gun rights activism, while in fact they're basically useless (or worse)*.

[* ..other than funding a lobbyist in Sacramento. I don't know the lobbyist but even people who don't like the current CRPA seem to agree he's good, so that works for me. However, I note that CRPA is an awfully inefficient structure for supporting him; it looks like the funds that CGF is bringing in from Amazon referrals alone would be sufficient to pay his salary.]

As the current CRPA gets worse and worse, it makes me wonder why the people who remain on its board are willing to lend it some of their credibility; and as that seems more and more questionable, it makes me wonder why I would want anyone to think that they enjoy my support, or that of CGN generally.

I would love to see some sort of detente or cooperation between CRPA and CGF/CGN; but in my mind, the basic problem is that the individuals now in charge of CRPA intend to maintain their effectively permanent control over the CRPA board/bylaws/budget, and not only are they unwilling to discuss changing that, they intend to use organizational resources to attack anyone who wants to. Effectively, they view CRPA as a magic money machine that extracts $ from CA gun owners by virtue of the gun owners' respect for the NRA and CRPA's history, and they will resist any and all efforts to wrest control of that machine from them.

Gray Peterson
05-20-2012, 1:19 PM
Guys,



To all parties concerned, this disunion is exactly what the antis want. They want us fighting amongst ourselves, so they can sneak bills in like SB1315. The fight is with them, not amongst ourselves. A2

Then Paul, Jacob, & Dave should present a viable plan to get the 2/3rds vote to change the bylaws within a reasonable time frame. If not publicly here, then privately.

They were elected to the board to reform, & that is what they promised the to the folks who voted for them, including me.

If they cannot accomplish this quickly after thing turned sour, they should resign. Period.

The disunion is from them downplaying the CND & them hanging on to a volunteer post for reasons that don't make sense & is mathematically impossible.

The disunion is due to their lack of candor with the people who brought them to board, including me.

Them staying on the board gives legitimacy to the cabal's bad acts. It is not enough to vigorously dissent. They should not be a part of the machine in this fashion.

=Mike=
05-20-2012, 1:22 PM
I have no idea what's going on here. Does anyone have a brief synopsis?

From what I have read, but may not understand correctly...

CRPA has become a communist style run organization.

CGF infiltrated, brought in CGN, tried to change it to a capitalist style run organization, failed, left, started http://www.savecrpa.org/, but CGN stayed.

CRPA issues Cease and Desist Letter to savecrpa.org

CGN still thinks it can save CRPA, but CGF thinks CGN is stupid.

Tensions got high, everyone avoided the ban but Oaklander, thread got closed for snippy remarks.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=572900

Now we have a group of people who I think are friends, at odds with each other.

First thing I think is stupid, but I understand based on the limited info here, and their passion on the subject, but hope they dont let it go that far.

pennys dad
05-20-2012, 1:51 PM
I said yes. However I'm hinting that wasting time without tangible and real goals is just wasting more time on tactics that only benefit the CRPA.

And the anti's don't care. They'd prefer to see CRPA remain ineffective however.

-Gene

Thank you Gene.

I will get the ball rolling

Gray Peterson
05-20-2012, 1:53 PM
CRPA issues Cease and Desist Letter to savecrpa.org

CGN still thinks it can save CRPA, but CGF thinks CGN is stupid.



CGN= Paul (Kestryll) primarily, bigcalidave, pennysdad (Jacob)

CGF= Gene, Brandon, Pat, Wesley, Bill, Brett & others.

It's not that "CGF" thinks "CGN" is stupid, it's that they claim they can reform CRPA, with little apparent knowledge of non profit corporation code, & without a viable plan to get 2/3rds vote in something that can be done quickly.

When I asked them repeatedly to explain how they would accomplish this, as a voter of CRPA, we get platitudes & statements of confidentiality.

cranemech
05-20-2012, 1:54 PM
From what I have read, but may not understand correctly...

CRPA has become a communist style run organization.

CGF infiltrated, brought in CGN, tried to change it to a capitalist style run organization, failed, left, started http://www.savecrpa.org/, but CGN stayed.

CRPA issues Cease and Desist Letter to savecrpa.org

CGN still thinks it can save CRPA, but CGF thinks CGN is stupid.

Tensions got high, everyone avoided the ban but Oaklander, thread got closed for snippy remarks.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=572900

Now we have a group of people who I think are friends, at odds with each other.

First thing I think is stupid, but I understand based on the limited info here, and their passion on the subject, but hope they dont let it go that far.

From my reading of the threads/posts, this is my understanding of the situation. :(

goober
05-20-2012, 1:58 PM
http://nostromoone.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/those-really-were-the-droids-you-were-looking-for1.jpg

nice :D
for such an opportunity, long have you waited...

(guessing i am)

bigcalidave
05-20-2012, 2:06 PM
Where are these claims Gray? When did this happen? I never made a claim to be able to do this, I voiced my uncertainty with the plan to have all the board members resign, because that seemed to eliminate any possibility of change. Now we continue to receive flak because we didn't quit in unison after yet another stupid move was made by the executive BOD? Was there really some schedule that we had to adhere to?

=Mike=
05-20-2012, 2:16 PM
CGN= Paul (Kestryll) primarily, bigcalidave, pennysdad (Jacob)

CGF= Gene, Brandon, Pat, Wesley, Bill, Brett & others.

It's not that "CGF" thinks "CGN" is stupid, it's that they claim they can reform CRPA, with little apparent knowledge of non profit corporation code, & without a viable plan to get 2/3rds vote in something that can be done quickly.

When I asked them repeatedly to explain how they would accomplish this, as a voter of CRPA, we get platitudes & statements of confidentiality.

I understand, and read the reply Kes gave to that. I was just giving a "brief synopsis" to the requester.

I have an opinion about CRPA, but no opinion here. Based on what Ive read, I see both sides, but know this goes WAY beyond whats on this forum. Just hope you guys get it figured out, and are still be able to have a few beers together.

wildhawker
05-20-2012, 2:23 PM
No, Dave, clearly you were never part of the team.

Alternatively, you once were, but turned.

So which is it - never were, or turncoat?

-Brandon

Where are these claims Gray? When did this happen? I never made a claim to be able to do this, I voiced my uncertainty with the plan to have all the board members resign, because that seemed to eliminate any possibility of change. Now we continue to receive flak because we didn't quit in unison after yet another stupid move was made by the executive BOD? Was there really some schedule that we had to adhere to?

rysmithjr
05-20-2012, 2:28 PM
when did this become cgn/c3 vs cgf?

seems like the strategy that the Brits used to get the Irish fighting amongst themselves over which form the compromises took, instead of focusing on the core problems

choprzrul
05-20-2012, 2:30 PM
If everyone who has resigned from the CRPA BoD, + a couple more from the next election; how many more votes would be needed to reach the required 2/3?

I ask because I think that we should fill every possible elected board seat as a first step. As a second step, we need to pursue a program of COVERT placement of people in Executive Committee assigned positions.

Once we have the votes, initiate a hostile takeover of CRPA.

There has to be several dozen people out there who are in favor of reforms that would volunteer to be on one of the subcommittees. There is no way that CRPA will be able to tell who is working covertly and who is not.

Sneak up on them & then kick 'em in the nooottzzzz.

.

bwiese
05-20-2012, 2:34 PM
Folks we're missing the mark and arguing about each other rather than the root cause. We're blaming the chrome on the Edsel's bumpers for the Edsel not selling, rather than the design, management and oversight of the Edsel.

We are not the problem, the CRPA structure is.

In the past ~4+ years, we had One Good Thing out of the CRPA (lobbyist replacement with someone who's skilled & smart and works with NRA team).

I had had hopes that incremental forward progress could be made. I tried, I was collegial, and then Gene & Brett get kicked off the Board.
Supposedly it was due to 'style'.

Style is BS. Board members etc are supposed to be able to deal with uncomfortable situations and varying delivery styles and pick what's best for the org.

I will note that in the corporate world, companies that tout stress-free working environment and lack of conflict, etc usually get their lunches eaten.

A rational expectation of an organization like CRPA would be One Good Thing PER YEAR instead. Issues...

- resistance to change
- historic implementation of structures to resist change (Board can't affect much due to bylaws. Activists get booted unless they are 'pets'. This doesn't happen in the corporate world. And yes, CRPA is an organization with a touted work product: gun rights, instead of profits.
- accusations of false competition of board members when CRPA vs CGF do not even play in same arena (legal vs political/organizational)
- exec leadership has little 'street cred' in gun community == stasis
- not backing legislative team efforts by developing PAC-style $ activism
- relevance of Fullerton vs. Sacramento - even symbolically
- mgmt took issues to public dinner, inappropriate Mafia references etc.
- etc.


I'm out for now, I have to go give my 3rd cat some drugs and move it to the other house.

Gray Peterson
05-20-2012, 2:44 PM
If everyone who has resigned from the CRPA BoD, + a couple more from the next election; how many more votes would be needed to reach the required 2/3

.


You can't. Every single elected board member could be part of the reform slate & still not get 2/3.

wildhawker
05-20-2012, 2:54 PM
You can't. Every single elected board member could be part of the reform slate & still not get 2/3.

This is the point missed by nearly everybody seeking a diplomatic solution.

An ambiguous "we'll get there, trust us, hold hands, and let's sing" timeline is exactly what CRPA has been saying for years.

It's gotten us exactly where?

-Brandon

choprzrul
05-20-2012, 3:02 PM
This is the point missed by nearly everybody seeking a diplomatic solution.

An ambiguous "we'll get there, trust us, hold hands, and let's sing" timeline is exactly what CRPA has been saying for years.

It's gotten us exactly where?

-Brandon

I understand this Brandon. What I am advocating is a silent takeover of the appointed seats via covert volunteers.

I am basing this upon the assumption that appointees have a vote in board actions. I am also assuming that someone volunteering to help out on a committee can get an appointed seat after a vetting process.

Am I correct in the above?

.

wildhawker
05-20-2012, 3:05 PM
I understand this Brandon. What I am advocating is a silent takeover of the appointed seats via covert volunteers.

I am basing this upon the assumption that appointees have a vote in board actions. I am also assuming that someone volunteering to help out on a committee can get an appointed seat after a vetting process.

Am I correct in the above?

.

Such a plan's probability of success is nearing zero and incurs significant time and opportunity costs.

-Brandon

choprzrul
05-20-2012, 3:13 PM
Such a plan's probability of success is nearing zero and incurs significant time and opportunity costs.

-Brandon

Understood. Not probable, but still possible? It would take some dedicated volunteers who are willing to work hard in the appointed capacity along with keeping quiet for an extended period of time.

What is the magic number for the 2/3 mark?

.

goober
05-20-2012, 3:20 PM
Understood. Not probable, but still possible? It would take some dedicated volunteers who are willing to work hard in the appointed capacity along with keeping quite for an extended period of time.

What is the magic number for the 2/3 mark?

.

There is no magic number. There is no set number of total board members or ratio of appointed vs. elected members. The house makes the rules, and can change the odds at will.

elSquid
05-20-2012, 3:23 PM
I have no idea what's going on here. Does anyone have a brief synopsis?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8611429&postcount=313

-- Michael

axel4488
05-20-2012, 3:23 PM
I just was about to donate too... Looks like no one is getting my money until they get their houses in order. OH, and to unban oaklander as well.

kcbrown
05-20-2012, 3:24 PM
It seems to me that the wrong questions are being asked.

I think the right questions are simple:


What are the advantages, if any, of those who remained on the CRPA board staying there?
What are the disadvantages, if any, of those who remained on the CRPA board staying there?
What are the advantages now, if any, of those who remained on the CRPA board resigning their positions?
What are the disadvantages, if any, of those who remained on the CRPA board resigning their positions?



All I've seen thus far are a bunch of claims about them being "responsible" for the CRPA's actions, or "implicitly supporting" them, or some such. I've not seen any concrete answers (i.e., answers showing measurable real-world effects) to any of the above questions.


I agree that it appears, based on how the bylaws are structured, that there is no possible way to positively reform CRPA without somehow convincing the executives to buy into it and that said executives want things to remain as they are. That suggests a logical impasse. But that does not mean that remaining behind on the board is a useless thing to do. And even if it did, that does not mean that remaining behind on the board is a detrimental thing to do.

I can see some actual advantages of having some of our people remain on the board, even in the event that reform is forced upon CRPA from the outside. And the message that was sent as a result of the mass exodus of board members has already been sent, so I see no advantage for those who remained behind to resign now.

As such, I perceive a possible advantage for leaving some of our people on the board, but perceive no real advantage to not doing so. Aside from the bickering and tensions that currently exist, which currently appear to be primarily the result of ego and emotion and not of logic and fact (I'm always open to correction on that, and very much want to be corrected on that, in fact), I see no concrete downside to having a couple of the good guys remain on the CRPA board. If a potential concrete upside exists, but a concrete downside does not exist, then doesn't it follow that the net is an upside, even if only probabilistically? As I said elsewhere, contingencies are a good thing to have.


If those who remained behind find themselves in a situation where their position on the CRPA board would force them to take actions that would impede our fight for RKBA, then I would expect them to resign at that point, because at that point remaining on the board would have a real downside. But how is that the case right now?

Finally, how can remaining on the CRPA board be any worse than remaining a CRPA member? We've been told by Gene and others to maintain our CRPA membership even if doing so required giving additional money to CRPA. How is that not providing even greater support to CRPA's executive leadership than merely remaining a board member would?


The very fact that you guys are at odds with each other suggests that my calculus above (which suggests that, on balance, it's better to have a couple of our guys remain on the CRPA board than to have the remainder resign now) may be incorrect. But where is the data that says that it is?


As a member of the peanut gallery, I am quite obviously very much in the dark about the real advantages and/or disadvantages involved, if I am arriving at conclusions such as the above. Isn't that something that needs to be addressed?

ptoguy2002
05-20-2012, 3:31 PM
And here we go again......

kermit315
05-20-2012, 3:50 PM
And here we go again......

People want answers, and none seem forthcoming......what do you expect?

taperxz
05-20-2012, 3:59 PM
Does the NRA have much influence, real influence over CRPA? What are the chances of them getting CRPA to see the light? At least in respect to how the org. Is run. Can this be taken politically to another level?

JSolie
05-20-2012, 4:07 PM
When I asked them repeatedly to explain how they would accomplish this, as a voter of CRPA, we get platitudes & statements of confidentiality.

I can think of two reasons to be vague here.

1) Not wanting to show your hand yet
2) Still formulating a plan.

This infighting and bickering isn't helping to reclaim lost 2A rights. I'll bet those in CRPA who sent the C&D letter are laughing their heads off at all the vitriol that's happened on CGN over the last few days (assuming the old 286's modem can connect).

I think everyone should chill for at least the rest of the day, and sleep on it overnight. Do we really want to burn bridges within our community? (I'm thinking here more of the interaction between CGN & CGF rather than the curmudgeonly CRPA (who doesn't seem to want to play ball with anyone but themselves)).

:chillpill::chillpill::chillpill:

dantodd
05-20-2012, 4:12 PM
There has been considerable dissent and dissatisfaction within the overall CalGuns ranks for some time. (CalGuns meaning both CGN and CGF, two separate and unrelated entities.)

This letter has lanced the above festering boil which has little or nothing to do with CRPA. I fear that many here, including some of the participants in the hostilities, are conflating the issues.

ETA: I was crummy of Ivan to unlock a locked thread just to post his parting shot. This is illustrative of the type of behavior that many here don't think is appropriate. (I was told that mods can post into a locked thread without unlocking the thread. Unless told otherwise by Ivan I will assume he replied before he realized the thread was closed and didn't take advantage of his privs to "get the last word" in an already closed thread.)

nicki
05-20-2012, 4:24 PM
CRPA to me to me to be full of the old guard, Calguns is the new guard.

Calguns is growing, doesn't look like CRPA is.

The issue I see is each organization has both it's strengths and weaknesses.

Both organizations can help each other, the CRPA already as branding in this state, as such it is well suited for firearms safety, lobbying and training.

CRPA is like a formal army, Calguns is like a well turned guerilla force and is well suited for offensive operations deep into hostile territory.

We are in a War for not just our gun rights, but all rights. There is nothing open minded and tolerant about our opponents, they are statists.

The whole CRPA purge was an unfortunate event, like it or not.

Many folks have the following personality defect, they will focus on differences rather than common ground.

If we could work together on things we agree on and set aside differences, we would accomplish alot.

I have friends and I always tell them I respect their right to be Wrong and they say the same to me, then we laugh.:43:

Nicki

bigcalidave
05-20-2012, 4:45 PM
No, Dave, clearly you were never part of the team.

Alternatively, you once were, but turned.

So which is it - never were, or turncoat?

-Brandon

So what is it that you want to accuse me of Brandon? Not agreeing with you?

Somehow your way or the highway just doesn't seem to matter to me.

Peter.Steele
05-20-2012, 4:52 PM
And here we go again......

People want answers, and none seem forthcoming......what do you expect?



Know what the definition of insanity is?

Starting the same thread over and over, and expecting it to turn out a different way.


This is all just drama, almost none of which needed to be out in the open in the first place.



http://www.fybertech.com/4get/12333023166784.jpg

Bolillo
05-20-2012, 5:03 PM
There is no magic number. There is no set number of total board members or ratio of appointed vs. elected members. The house makes the rules, and can change the odds at will.

QFT. The game has already been fixed.

Gray Peterson
05-20-2012, 5:13 PM
This is the point missed by nearly everybody seeking a diplomatic solution.

An ambiguous "we'll get there, trust us, hold hands, and let's sing" timeline is exactly what CRPA has been saying for years.

It's gotten us exactly where?

-Brandon

There is no magic number. There is no set number of total board members or ratio of appointed vs. elected members. The house makes the rules, and can change the odds at will.

People want answers, and none seem forthcoming......what do you expect?

I can think of two reasons to be vague here.

1) Not wanting to show your hand yet
2) Still formulating a plan.

This infighting and bickering isn't helping to reclaim lost 2A rights. I'll bet those in CRPA who sent the C&D letter are laughing their heads off at all the vitriol that's happened on CGN over the last few days (assuming the old 286's modem can connect).




When Tony's Cabal refused re-appointment of Gene and Brett, it was a warning to the rest of the appointed board members not to rock the boat or approve bylaws changes advanced by the reformist faction. Almost none of the appointed board members would approve the bylaws changes, and if there were enough appointed board members willing to give the finger to Tony's Cabal, they would simply appoint more board members to dilute the elected board vote for the bylaws reforms.

The graceful reformist method that was being done over the last three years was a way to gracefully change things for the better without a bunch of drama, and the reformists were told, especially with John Fields (I was there at the Nordyke Dinner in 2009 when John Fields was introduced) that they would consider it if people started running for the board.

As soon as Tony started with the Mafia references at the CRPA annual dinner back in early March, and then berated Gene and Brett at the meeting, it was all downhill from there.

The refusal to reappoint did two things:

1) It shot across the bow of the reformists to don't bother trying to change the organization.
2) It was an intimidation tactic against the other appointed members of the board: Support reform and you will be booted.

Now that Tony's Cabal has been on a tirade, putting out disgusting emails about the reformists, and now they're resorting to C&D's against SaveCRPA (I guess the Federation for NRA also violated the Lanham Act, too? Yeah right. Harlon Carter was not a moron) because they can't control the narrative.

It is 100 percent mathematically impossible to reform the bylaws now via the elected board members method, now that Gene and Brett are gone from the appointed side. The Cabalists has drawn out their swords and will cut anyone who doesn't tow the line.

This is why when Dave, Paul, and Jacob keep saying "They have a plan", I believe wholeheartedly that I'm being either lied to, or just given a sliver of a hope that has zero chance of success. It's either a lie, or pure foolishness. The math doesn't add up.

If Paul, Dave, and Jacob can somehow fix the bylaws to be a 100 percent elected board and somehow get the votes to at least do that in the next 6 months, I'll eat my hat and retract my complaints and gives my apologies. I however, want actions from the candidates that I helped put on the ballot and vote for, not words and platitudes.

Gray Peterson
05-20-2012, 5:15 PM
So what is it that you want to accuse me of Brandon? Not agreeing with you?

Somehow your way or the highway just doesn't seem to matter to me.

Where's your plan to get the 2/3'rds vote to change the bylaws to a 100 percent elected board, at a minimum? Where are you going to get the votes? Don't give platitudes, give facts.

From Gene on the other thread:

I've often explained that CGF is designed to end. Systems are more important than the men who create them. Allowing CRPA oxygen to continue to self perpetuate means that when we reach the point that the CGF fight ends, the only thing even partially sane to fill the vacuum is CRPA. When you (Paul, Jacob, Dave) do things to support it, you're building up it's ability to repel criticism and reform.


When the men of this community who brought California AKs and ARs again, and sent Sacramento shall issue were thrown off of or resigned from CRPA, you three we're equally as sure that somehow you three could do what the rest of us could not with the CRPA board. That is a platitude. "Let's just all get along and work within the system."

If you're taking grief from both sides, maybe you should just chose a side. Amusingly, all CRPA has continued to do is beclown itself. I'll note for you that I've never been threatened personally with a lawsuit by an anti-gunner - only CRPA and other supposedly pro-gun folks.

-Gene

wildhawker
05-20-2012, 5:22 PM
So what is it that you want to accuse me of Brandon? Not agreeing with you?

Somehow your way or the highway just doesn't seem to matter to me.

"My way" is a demand that the organization - at minimum - adhere to California Corporations Code, and preferably adopt the NRA system of fair elections.

You haven't explained why you're willing to accept less than that, or what in the law suggests that these are "negotiable" issues.

I'll look forward to your continued rationalizations.

-Brandon

jdberger
05-20-2012, 6:31 PM
Could you two knock it off?

Please?

GettoPhilosopher
05-20-2012, 6:44 PM
Could you two everyone knock it off?

Please?

Fixed.

wildhawker
05-20-2012, 6:46 PM
Could you two knock it off?

Please?

No one's answered my questions from this post (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8600359&postcount=143).

As soon as Cal. Corp. Code is adhered to and NRA-style elections are on the members' ballots, I'll be happy to go away.

Just like we said we would.

-Brandon

Kestryll
05-20-2012, 7:10 PM
No one's answered my questions from this post (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8600359&postcount=143).

Yes I did, just 5 posts later (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8600948&postcount=148).

wildhawker
05-20-2012, 7:12 PM
Yes I did, just 5 posts later (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8600948&postcount=148).

You missed my point.

-Brandon

bob7122
05-20-2012, 7:26 PM
damn it guys! take a break, relax and when both parties are ready to try and find some middle ground then do so. this fighting is spilling on the boards and is showing everyone how nasty and divided we are becoming. it starts from the top and will trickle down.

so we have a problem. some disagree on what to do. then do what is right; how?
what is suppose to be done to be in accordance with the law? got the answer? then do it.

some people won't conform to the law then move on. easy peazy lemon squeazy.
you guys are the top dogs and it hearts to watch you guys argue like this. just take a break.

NoJoke
05-20-2012, 7:28 PM
We're talking type A personalities here - it is doubful someone is going to roll over.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cadeyco/New%20Folder/BBCNEWSWorldLionMutilates42MidgetsinCambodianRing-Fight_files/lion22.jpg

http://www.profimedia.si/photo/two-male-lions-fight-to-the-death/profimedia-0092375383.jpg

Kestryll
05-20-2012, 7:31 PM
The people who Jacob was trying to reach have been reached so this serves no more purpose.