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LBDamned
05-19-2012, 4:08 PM
I've been waiting for TWS (Texas Weapons Systems) to release rail with notched leaf sight built in... for those unaware, typically it is an option to add...

Thankfully JABTAC hooked up with TWS and got me one!!! :thumbsup:

The install isn't rocket science - but the rear leaf sight is a bit stubborn and the recoil spring assembly is known to cause fits, so I took it to South Coast Armory - great guys, super helpful! Relatively quick & painless install

The spring release button for the dust cover is a bit glitchy (but is smoothing out with use)... and there is a tiny (miniscule) amount of play, but so minimal that I doubt it will affect zero (hope not)... it's pretty solid. Not quite as rock solid as quad rail, but I can't stand having rds that far forward - and going back to stock fore-grips made front a bit lighter.

The quality of materials are very good. Cover sits pretty flush, charge handle has good clearance and safety latch fits nice in up position... The notched sight is straight and right height/width (I think it's set for 100 yrd). This is a Yugo variant - most reviews I've read for standard AK are positive...

I havent shot with it yet (will soon)... but so far I'm happy.

JABTAC is great to deal with! Super helpful and best pricing ($155 shipped for this setup, $135 for plain leaf) ... and I'll definitely use South Coast Armory in the future.

I'm sure most people that are interested in this rail have seen it before (there are much better pics around)... but here are a few... I'll post review after shooting (to see how it holds up).

I haven't seen much on CGN about this rail - so I figured I'd share, for those interested ~

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/OCG35/Guns/TWS%20Dogleg%20Rail/IMG_20120519_143310.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/OCG35/Guns/TWS%20Dogleg%20Rail/IMG_20120519_143057.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/OCG35/Guns/TWS%20Dogleg%20Rail/IMG_20120519_143323.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/OCG35/Guns/TWS%20Dogleg%20Rail/IMG_20120519_143303.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/OCG35/Guns/TWS%20Dogleg%20Rail/IMG_20120519_143337.jpg

NorCalK9.com
05-19-2012, 4:58 PM
Thats the one i have i think.
Heres ak74 with an aimpoint.
http://i.imgur.com/xlFUU.jpg.

Heres with 3-9.
http://i.imgur.com/YmZIS.jpg

LBDamned
05-19-2012, 9:24 PM
^^^ did you keep the leaf spring in?...

The reason I ask is - as I mentioned in op, there is minor (fractions of a mm) play in the front at the leaf/pivot... my leaf spring is out and I think keeping it in will create enough tension to keep it solid.

I searched a bit on various forums and it's hit & miss - some people keep it in, some remove (but of those that remove, they all say it still holds zero)... but others have expressed the same thing as I have noticed; it seems it would be totally rigid with the leaf spring.

I'm tempted to do before and after test... shoot with it removed, then installed and see if accuracy/consistency is any better... as minute as the play is, it bugs me enough to want to just install the spring now.

Fate
05-19-2012, 10:14 PM
I put one on my PSL. It's really a nice piece of kit and rock solid, but I'll second the remark about it being a PITA to get the recoil spring assembly swapped. As for the leaf spring, I left mine in (primarily because I couldn't get it off the gun in the first place!)

NorCalK9.com
05-19-2012, 10:48 PM
The tws is the best thing to happen to ak's since the AK74!

osis32
05-19-2012, 10:59 PM
I would still prefer the Krebs design :p

zfields
05-19-2012, 11:19 PM
I would still prefer the Krebs design :p

Just wish the krebs didn't need to go into the stock tang. Thats one big thing going for the TWS, It can be used on folders and Draco/pistol set ups.

osis32
05-19-2012, 11:32 PM
I have an Ati folder so I still have a place to sink the Krebs into. But that is a legit negative for the Krebs. That and the price.

zfields
05-19-2012, 11:57 PM
I have an Ati folder so I still have a place to sink the Krebs into. But that is a legit negative for the Krebs. That and the price.

Sorry, I meant real folders :D

Yea it will work with the tantal, Beryl and a few others, but not any that don't take a standard fixed trunion.

NorCalK9.com
05-20-2012, 12:13 AM
anyone gotna link for the krebs one yall is talking about.

zfields
05-20-2012, 12:15 AM
http://www.krebscustom.com/PartsPages/KalashnikovParts.shtml


bout 3/4 down the page.

NorCalK9.com
05-20-2012, 12:20 AM
You guys talking aboutnthis one?

http://www.krebscustom.com/ProductLine/Rail_System-AssembledLocked.shtml.

If so i'll definitely pass. I can buy a whole new glock19 for that price lol.
It does look good though.

zfields
05-20-2012, 12:21 AM
Id like to know where you are getting glock 19s for 310 bucks.

NorCalK9.com
05-20-2012, 12:38 AM
My uncle owns glock lol just kidding.
I thought it said $510 not $310 lol. Id pay $310 and now i officially hate younguys cause i wanna buy it now.

Solidsnake87
05-20-2012, 2:22 AM
Sweet rail :)

boamedt
05-20-2012, 7:36 AM
Where did u get the tws rail? I looked all over for one , even called every dealer listed on their website, no one had them in stock

NorCalK9.com
05-20-2012, 9:45 AM
I got mine here on cg's new off a collector.

LBDamned
05-20-2012, 10:49 AM
Just wish the krebs didn't need to go into the stock tang. Thats one big thing going for the TWS, It can be used on folders and Draco/pistol set ups.

plus I'm pretty sure the TWS sits lower... I use a Vortex SPARK with ARMS #31 mount - cheek weld is pretty good (much lower than when the rds was on quad rail).

LBDamned
05-20-2012, 10:52 AM
Where did u get the tws rail? I looked all over for one , even called every dealer listed on their website, no one had them in stock

hit up JABTAC... they are near TWS (and friends with them)... they did a special order for mine (I dont think TWS is doing production runs with the leaf sight "yet" - it's still a separate purchase)...

I spoke to TWS a couple times, I think they just got a new run completed, so you'll probably start seeing them available again... but JABTAC is the cheapest I've seen and they went the extra mile for me - I highly recommend them!

zfields
05-20-2012, 11:33 AM
plus I'm pretty sure the TWS sits lower... I use a Vortex SPARK with ARMS #31 mount - cheek weld is pretty good (much lower than when the rds was on quad rail).

It sure looks like it. I also like the overall look of it better.

osis32
05-20-2012, 11:47 AM
I like the look better too just don't see it being as rugged.

LBDamned
05-20-2012, 12:50 PM
I havent put it through it's paces yet - but there are lots of reviews from people that have... all say it's solid and holds zero...

I just got done re-installing the leaf spring (pita) to try and take up the tiny bit of slack (literally hundredths of an inch) - I really dont think it would negatively affect anything, but it bugged me.

It's more solid now, but still a hair of movement at the pivot pin (the rear is rock solid)... The width of the hinge point (that mounts at the sight block) is fractions of a mm narrow - so it has a minute amount of movement - the leaf spring helped, but I'm going to try and find a tiny washer for the pin to snug it tight.

I wouldnt even call it wiggle or slop, it barely moves and stays seated - but I want it rock solid like a quad rail is. I realize that there is all kinds of torque twisting going on under fire, so this is so minor it might as well be non-existent... I'm just kinda OCD about this kind of stuff :o

I also took apart the recoil spring assembly (found a method that makes it pretty easy) - and tried the stock release button... I dont know if all Yugos have the side detent button, but this one does so the stock release seats better... but the cover was real sloppy so I re-installed the TWS replacement. It's super sturdy, but I have to rack the charging handle a few times to get the button to seat (no biggie)... take down and re-assembly isnt quite as fast, but only by a few seconds (I doubt I'll ever be in a situation were this hinders me).

LBDamned
05-20-2012, 1:09 PM
Off Topic...

Does anyone know of a way to plug the thumb-hole?... Normal AK stocks wont fit this rifle (because of the rear trunnion/angled receiver)... I want featureless...

Ryan in SD
05-20-2012, 1:38 PM
^^^ did you keep the leaf spring in?...

The reason I ask is - as I mentioned in op, there is minor (fractions of a mm) play in the front at the leaf/pivot... my leaf spring is out and I think keeping it in will create enough tension to keep it solid.

I searched a bit on various forums and it's hit & miss - some people keep it in, some remove (but of those that remove, they all say it still holds zero)... but others have expressed the same thing as I have noticed; it seems it would be totally rigid with the leaf spring.

I'm tempted to do before and after test... shoot with it removed, then installed and see if accuracy/consistency is any better... as minute as the play is, it bugs me enough to want to just install the spring now.

I tried it on different guns with different setups. I think its best to keep the spring in there even though its hard to install with it on. I think my shots were being thrown a bit on my scoped 74 when I didnt use the spring.

Now with it in there, its super solid.

LBDamned
05-20-2012, 2:21 PM
^^^ right-on, thanks for the response

morthrane
05-20-2012, 2:30 PM
Bit of disclosure-- the TWS rail convinced me to get the saiga 308, and the saiga 308 convinced me to get the TWS rail.

Saiga 308 16" TA33R-9 ACOG (http://i.imgur.com/Gh5g0.jpg)
Saiga 308 16" TA33R-9 ACOG closeup (http://i.imgur.com/xDZuL.jpg)
Business end (http://i.imgur.com/w1MKP.jpg)

Because of the ACOG's eye relief and long stock/LOP, I ditched the peephole site and I'm using the hole through the ACOG base as an informal ghost ring (http://i.imgur.com/WzHHq.jpg) as a backup. Intend to practice using this as well as using the charge handle as an aiming device. I did have the leaf sight, but ended up returning it when I first was going to use the peep sight; kinda wish I hadn't returned it, because it would work well with the ghost ring setup through the ACOG.

Installing the TWS is painful due to the leaf spring, but I left the leaf spring in place. I have zero play in the rail, possibly due to a careful length fit against the back of the receiver: it is borderline interference fit, and has an audible click into place even without the recoil spring assemble.

Field stripping is not an issue; whatever time lost on disassembly is recovered on reassembly, as I don't have to waste time fiddling with the dust cover and getting it seated just right. With the TWS just swing the rail down and it snaps into place quickly... and since its attached to the rifle, I never wonder WTF I put the damned dust cover. :D

No issues with zero-loss. I've taken the acog mount (American Defense ADM1 for the curious) off the rail and the rail off the receiver a couple dozen times now.

Don't laugh at my gomer pile shooting groups, but here's some better ones at 100 yards on sandbags benchrested. (Coin for reference is a silver quarter)
4 different kinds of ammo (http://i.imgur.com/E7PC2.jpg)
Top and bottom left are 5rnd groups of Prvi Partisan 145g 7.62x51.
Middle is Federal Gold Match 168g .308win.
Top right is a five round group of 90's surplus Radway Green 147g 7.62x51.
Bottom left is a five round group of 1983 surplus Malaysian 147g 7.62x51.

Same four kinds of ammo (http://i.imgur.com/kGsZH.jpg)
Prvi Partisan in the bottom right corner (15 rounds, one round either missing or doubled on a previous shot)
Radway green in the top right and bottom left corners (5 rounds each)
Malaysian in the upper left (5 rounds).

Recent Federal Gold Match 168g (http://i.imgur.com/eVcCn.jpg)
Bottom left and right targets, Federal Gold Match 168g .308win, 10 rounds each. (the two upper targets are from my m4gery with a TA31H-G)

My particular saiga 308 really like the malaysian surplus for some reason, even though its the oldest ammo I have. That said, I'm fairly sure that tighter groups are achievable by a better shooter than me, as most of the "flyers" in those groups were user error, not ammo, as I knew they were off as soon as I pulled the trigger and did something wrong like flinch or trigger jerk.

I like the look better too just don't see it being as rugged.
I hear ya-- aluminum is rarely as durable and rugged as properly treated steel.

I've put maybe 500 rounds through my saiga 308 with the TWS+ACOG; so far, so good. The finish around the edges of the rail where ejected cases hit is showing minor signs of wear, but nothing to be concerned about.

zfields
05-20-2012, 2:32 PM
Off Topic...

Does anyone know of a way to plug the thumb-hole?... Normal AK stocks wont fit this rifle (because of the rear trunnion/angled receiver)... I want featureless...

How much do you care about looks / not thrashing the stock?

Easiest way I am thinking is a cut out peice of kydex or sheet PVC and some plastic epoxy.

jonc
05-20-2012, 2:41 PM
i like

LBDamned
05-20-2012, 4:45 PM
How much do you care about looks / not thrashing the stock?

Easiest way I am thinking is a cut out peice of kydex or sheet PVC and some plastic epoxy.

yeah, I thought about that... not too concerned about looks, but I'm trying to think of a non-permanent way (in case I end up i a free state some day)...

a rubber plug would be ideal - but I doubt I'd ever find anything that would be the right shape, size and configuration... it's not all that comfortable gripping without the hole - so I might have to reshape as well...

probably more hassle than it's worth... I'll just get a saiga at some point.

LBDamned
05-20-2012, 4:46 PM
nice review morthrane :)

morthrane
05-20-2012, 6:04 PM
yeah, I thought about that... not too concerned about looks, but I'm trying to think of a non-permanent way (in case I end up i a free state some day)...

a rubber plug would be ideal - but I doubt I'd ever find anything that would be the right shape, size and configuration... it's not all that comfortable gripping without the hole - so I might have to reshape as well...


Off the cuff idea: Two tapered rubber pads (like the feet on furniture) mounted on each side of the thumbhole with a bolt and screw holding them together, small taper end on the inside and the larger taper end facing out. Trim down the rubber pads to be as flush as possible on the outside with the stock.

No idea if it will work, and it will probably be fugly, but I know home depot has a retarded selection of rubber bumper feet for furniture to check for possible candidates.

Richard Erichsen
05-20-2012, 6:28 PM
Off Topic...

Does anyone know of a way to plug the thumb-hole?... Normal AK stocks wont fit this rifle (because of the rear trunnion/angled receiver)... I want featureless...

You need an ACE stock adapter for the Yugo trunnion ($40) and then any stock compatible with the two horizontal machine screws that will fit from DPH or ACE. Most are skeleton type.

R

LBDamned
05-20-2012, 6:42 PM
Off the cuff idea: Two tapered rubber pads (like the feet on furniture) mounted on each side of the thumbhole with a bolt and screw holding them together, small taper end on the inside and the larger taper end facing out. Trim down the rubber pads to be as flush as possible on the outside with the stock.

No idea if it will work, and it will probably be fugly, but I know home depot has a retarded selection of rubber bumper feet for furniture to check for possible candidates.

DoH!!! I was was at Home Depot earlier today - didn't even think of looking for something for the thumbhole :TFH: thanks for the idea...

I did get a small e-clip washer though - to try and take up the tiny bit of play in the dogleg... got the tiniest one I could find and couldnt get it to fit (that's how minuscule the gap is) - I'm leaving it as is for now...


You need an ACE stock adapter for the Yugo trunnion ($40) and then any stock compatible with the two horizontal machine screws that will fit from DPH or ACE. Most are skeleton type.

R
cool, thanks for the info - this is probably the best route... a bit more costly than finding a plug - but probably a better solution.

ETA: I just looked up the ACE stock adapter - found this: http://riflestocks.com/store/product35.html ... but I still have the issue of angle cut receiver...

zfields
05-20-2012, 6:48 PM
You need an ACE stock adapter for the Yugo trunnion ($40) and then any stock compatible with the two horizontal machine screws that will fit from DPH or ACE. Most are skeleton type.

R

That wouldnt really help with going featureless though.

vintagedude88
05-20-2012, 7:13 PM
I never liked the Gen2 TWS rail. I prefer the Gen 1. If someone has a Gen 1 rail to sell, lmk.:D

Richard Erichsen
05-20-2012, 7:37 PM
That wouldnt really help with going featureless though.

Skeleton stock - not necessarily folding stock. ;)

You have clearly been traumatized by silly CA laws Z. Breath a sigh of relief you're in Texas.

R

morthrane
05-20-2012, 8:10 PM
I never liked the Gen2 TWS rail. I prefer the Gen 1. If someone has a Gen 1 rail to sell, lmk.:D
Out of curiosity, what are the differences? I have a gen2.

RustyMacHine
05-20-2012, 8:43 PM
My uncle owns glock lol just kidding.
I thought it said $510 not $310 lol. Id pay $310 and now i officially hate younguys cause i wanna buy it now.

I'll sell you a TWS Gen 1 Dogleg for $80 P/U in Tracy if you like the Krebs design. ;)


.

RustyMacHine
05-20-2012, 9:07 PM
Out of curiosity, what are the differences? I have a gen2.

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g444/andrewdean/Snapbucket/A1792F8D.jpg

Actual flip up rear sights
http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g444/andrewdean/Snapbucket/61BCFD92.jpg



.

ZX-10R
05-20-2012, 10:26 PM
TWS all day.