PDA

View Full Version : Overcharging for PPT Transfers: A Possible Bigger Problem?


ThomasMagnum
05-07-2007, 11:38 AM
First let me apologize for bringing up the dead thread from before, I just didn't want to be bombarded with "search this" or "already been discussed, look here."

I wanted to do a PPT transfer and have called around to a few places and all so far have quoted $45 or more. As I understand it, the statutory maximum is $35 no matter what. The only exception appears to be if the dealer has to hold it more than a business day after the DROS 10 days is over. Other than that there is no exception to the $35.

While I certainly understand the whole argument of "it's just $10 or $20, who cares." I agree but the fact is that the dealer has done something blatantly illegal during the transfer of your or my gun. If I'm an overzealous DA or Attorney General I could sure make a showing that the entire transfer is invalid because of the illegal transfer fee. Call me paranoid but I can just see the state coming around years from now and saying that we all have to re-DROS the guns because the previous transfer was invalid and at that future date, half of the guns were off the roster or on the list as the case may be. Again, call me paranoid but I want every t crossed and i dotted when dealing with firearms in PRK. I certainly don't want a clear violation of the statute to be recorded on paper in a transfer, that just seems like opening the door to trouble down the road.

leelaw
05-07-2007, 11:41 AM
If I go into a store and buy a toaster for $15 and pay with a $20, but only get back a $1, does that make me not own the toaster anymore?

Your concern about the DROS being invalidated because of overpayment seems a little out of place.

ThomasMagnum
05-07-2007, 11:44 AM
Point taken, but there's no law that says toasters have to cost $15 and it's illegal to charge more.

Kestryll
05-07-2007, 11:47 AM
Your DROS would not be invalid.
At worst you might be contacted regarding being overcharged if DOJ found out about it an actually did something. As long as your paperwork is filled out corrctly and you have a receipt showing you paid at least what the law requires then you should be fine.
The FFL on the other hand may have issues but that's legally not your concern.

Serpentine
05-07-2007, 4:11 PM
Is it even worth it for an FFL to do private party transfers?

FFL's are not required to do business with anyone and everyone. Like any business, they can refuse service for whatever reason they wish.

Of that $35 DROS fee, the state gets $25, the dealer gets $10, then he/she has to pay state and federal income taxes on the $10, so it's really about $6 in the end.

SIX dollars. Subtract for the tremendous cost of business overhead in CA; the rent, wages, insurance, utilities, safes, security systems, license renewal fees, technology (computers), association fees to fight wrongful legislation, the logging and tracking, the triple-checking of paperwork (as well as the constant stress) to appease the local City, County, Fire, Police, Public Safety, ATF, BOE, IRS, FTB, and DOJ officials.

If I were an FFL (Where I live, there are only five active storefront FFL's left for 2 million people!), and I read the complaints registered here on this site over a measly $10 to $20 surcharge for the 'realistic cost of doing business,' and the pathetic threats to snitch out to the local DA and DOJ, I would stop doing private party transfers altogether.







.

bwiese
05-07-2007, 4:25 PM
Is it even worth it for an FFL to do private party transfers?

FFL's are not required to do business with anyone and everyone. Like any business, they can refuse service for whatever reason they wish.

{If I were an FFL....} .... the pathetic threats to snitch out to the local DA and DOJ, I would stop doing private party transfers altogether.



Untrue, wrong, etc. etc.

A CA FFL gun dealer *must* do private-party transfers for long guns.

CA FFLs only have to do PPTs for handguns if and only if they sell handguns. (This is why Big5 "sporting goods" stores can avoid doing PPTs for pistols, since they sell only long guns.)

The mandatory PPT requirement for dealers was put in so that illegal 'paper free' deals could be avoided, since there'd always be a place where a legit PPT transfer could be accomplished.

I admit it's really cheeseball to fault an FFL for wanting to break even on a PPT deal.

Sometimes we're our own worst enemy.

Serpentine
05-07-2007, 4:32 PM
Untrue, wrong, etc. etc.

A CA FFL gun dealer *must* do private-party transfers for long guns.

CA FFLs only have to do PPTs for handguns if and only if they sell handguns. (This is why Big5 "sporting goods" stores can avoid doing PPTs for pistols, since they sell only long guns.)

The mandatory PPT requirement for dealers was put in so that illegal 'paper free' deals could be avoided, since there'd always be a place where a legit PPT transfer could be accomplished.

I admit it's really cheeseball to fault an FFL for wanting to break even on a PPT deal.

Sometimes we're our own worst enemy.

An FFL can refuse business to anyone, for any reason, period, per the ATF, not the DOJ.

My local Big-5 store will not do PPT's on any firearms, long or short. If they did, every gun shop in the area would be sending PPT's to them, to leave their own stores more open for lucrative business.

stator
05-07-2007, 5:32 PM
An FFL can refuse business to anyone, for any reason, period, per the ATF, not the DOJ.


True, but not applicable here. This is about CA law and the requirements of being licensed to sell firearms by the CA-DOJ.

joe4702
05-07-2007, 6:16 PM
I don't have a lot of sympathy for gun dealers who supported the banning of private sales (Turners comes to mind) in hopes of drumming up more business. I have a feeling they didn't foresee the legislature putting a cap on the fee they could charge. Now they don't like the PPT situation because its not a money-maker and they try to squirm out of doing them (had this happen twice at a particular Turners - was flat out lied to in both cases). If they don't want to do PPT, then give up the FFL and sell accessories only. I do feel for pro-freedom dealers who oppposed the law and are now forced to do PPT.

bwiese
05-07-2007, 6:50 PM
An FFL can refuse business to anyone, for any reason, period, per the ATF, not the DOJ.

100% irrelevant. This issue is not about ATF.

It's about the dealer's CA license w/DOJ, which he also needs (in addition to zoing, biz license and resale tax permit) to do biz as a gun dealer in CA.

To get/retain his license, he agrees to abide by the various laws & regulations. One of these is, as a dealer, that he must process PPTs for long guns - and, if he also sells handguns, he must do PPTs for them too.


My local Big-5 store will not do PPT's on any firearms, long or short. If they did, every gun shop in the area would be sending PPT's to them, to leave their own stores more open for lucrative business.

Big5 is not known for compliance or knowledge of CA firearms laws, much like WalMart.

This is grounds for warning, at a minimum. THEY CANNOT REFUSE TO DO A PPT. Some gun stores do PPTs on their time, which appears allowable - say, Thurs & Fri afternoons only.

Don't take legal guidance from a Big 5 flunky, either. If they were so sharp, they'd not be working at Big 5.

bwiese
05-07-2007, 6:58 PM
I don't have a lot of sympathy for gun dealers who supported the banning of private sales (Turners comes to mind) in hopes of drumming up more business[

Some may, some may not have.

This all started Jan 1 1991 when all gun sales in CA had to be mediated thru a dealer. Until then you could buy a gun in a parking lot...

If they don't want to do PPT, then give up the FFL and sell accessories only. I do feel for pro-freedom dealers who oppposed the law and are now forced to do PPT.

That's their only choice. This provision of the law - required PPT processing by FFLs - was created to promote compliance: that is, people likely are way more willing to comply with law providing there are plenty of locations in which a legal papered transfer can readily occur for a reasonable price.

A324
05-07-2007, 7:07 PM
I usually kick in an extra $10 to my local FFL as a "donation" for providing me a convenient place to transfer my firearms. I don't have to, it's strictly voluntary.

TKM
05-07-2007, 7:26 PM
I have many receipts from my local FFL for CADOJ approved safes. I usually pop for another!!!! $10 lock just knowing that it helps keep the lights on and the kids fed. This is not a cheap sport, hobby,avocation, whatever....


It's kind of like fine dining, if you can't afford to tip, you can't afford to dine well.

If you have a good relationship with a dealer who has been good to you, don't whine about a couple of bucks here and there.

If not, well.... there's always Walmart.

That reminds me... time to call Tenpercent, I need some goodies.

tenpercentfirearms
05-07-2007, 7:30 PM
I am too busy for this PPT crap so I charge a $1000 paperwork fee per PPT. That new POS system has some really expensive paper. :D

A324
05-07-2007, 7:54 PM
well.... there's always Walmart.

.

Yup, there sure is.... :)

http://xs53.xs.to/pics/05446/walmart.jpg

WokMaster1
05-07-2007, 8:04 PM
Yup, there sure is.... :)

http://xs53.xs.to/pics/05446/walmart.jpg

OK Connie!:D

Serpentine
05-07-2007, 8:17 PM
True, but not applicable here. This is about CA law and the requirements of being licensed to sell firearms by the CA-DOJ.

More power to you if you can succeed in demanding a merchant do business with you if he doesn't want to. I called six Big-5 sporting good outlets in my area, and none would do a private party transfer. They are CA licensed FFL dealers.

MaceWindu
05-07-2007, 8:45 PM
Complaining about $10 - $20 bucks?

You can always go to Reeds on Alum Rock or Sportmans Supply and take it in the rear for MORE + the funky attitude they will give you for not buying one of their over-priced guns.

aklover_91
05-07-2007, 8:53 PM
More power to you if you can succeed in demanding a merchant do business with you if he doesn't want to. I called six Big-5 sporting good outlets in my area, and none would do a private party transfer. They are CA licensed FFL dealers.

that doesn't mean it's legal for them to do. it just means they're openly breaking a law.

vikingshelmut
05-07-2007, 8:54 PM
Complaining about $10 - $20 bucks?

You can always go to Reeds on Alum Rock or Sportmans Supply and take it in the rear for MORE + the funky attitude they will give you for not buying one of their over-priced guns.
Agreed. Complaining over $10 or $20 more? Maybe that is a little lame. But nearly EVERY PLACE in the bay area charges $45 - $100 on top of the DROS fee for a PPT. That is just plain crazy. Thank god I no longer have worry about a PPT again. :)

Sam Hainn
05-07-2007, 8:56 PM
More power to you if you can succeed in demanding a merchant do business with you if he doesn't want to. I called six Big-5 sporting good outlets in my area, and none would do a private party transfer. They are CA licensed FFL dealers.


Then print this up from the DOJ wesbite and hand them this:

http://www.caag.state.ca.us/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf

It says:

TO: ALL LICENSED FIREARMS DEALERS, CHIEFS OF POLICE, SHERIFFS
OFFICES, DISTRICT ATTORNEYS

This Information Bulletin is intended to remind dealers of their obligations regarding
private party transfers including the 10-day waiting period and the fees that firearms dealers are permitted by law to charge when conducting these transfers.

Firearms dealers are required to conduct private party transfers pursuant to Penal Code section 12071(b)(5). Dealers may not limit the days or hours in which private party transfers are conducted. The allowable fees are limited by statute. Pursuant to Penal Code section 12082, the fees that can be charged are as follows:

1. The private party purchaser or transferee, or person being loaned the firearm may
be required by the firearms dealer to pay a fee not to exceed $10.00 per firearm,
and the applicable Dealer’s Record of Sale (DROS) fee that the DOJ may charge
pursuant to Penal Code section 12076. The DROS fee is currently $14.00 and the
Safety fee is currently $1.00, a total of $15.00.

2. Subsequent to the end of the 10-day waiting period or one business day following
the notification of the purchaser that his/her DROS has been released from a DOJ
required “hold”, the dealer may charge a storage fee. However, such fees must be
clearly posted and may not be misrepresented as any governmental fee.

3. Private party transfers of multiple handguns at the same time are handled as
follows:

• A separate DROS must be completed for each handgun.
• The DROS/Safety fee for the first handgun is a total of $15.00.
• The DROS/Safety fee for each additional handgun is $11.00.
• The dealer may charge the buyer or transferee, or person being loaned the firearm a fee not to exceed $10.00 per firearm, for the processing of the private party transfer.

4. A single DROS shall be completed for any number of long gun transfers that are
processed at the same time. The DROS/Safety fee for the transaction is a total of
$15.00 and the dealer may charge the purchaser or transferee, or person being
loaned the firearm a fee not to exceed $10.00 per firearm, for the processing of the
private party transfer.

5. In a private party transfer involving a combination of handguns and long guns, a
separate DROS will be required for each handgun and a single DROS will be
required for any number of long guns. The DROS/Safety fees will be $15.00 for
the first handgun DROS and $15.00 for the long gun DROS. There is no discount
for the processing of a combination of handgun and long gun DROS.

Fees other than the DROS/Safety fee charged by the firearms dealer for sales from their own inventory or consignment sales are not addressed in the law. However, any additional fees charged by the dealer must be clearly posted and the dealer shall not misstate the amount of fees charged by a governmental agency.

Firearms dealers that violate these laws may be subject to civil or criminal penalties and/or required to pay restitution to parties that have been overcharged.

If you have any questions regarding this Information Bulletin, please visit the Firearms
Division web site at http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/ or call the Firearms Division at (916) 227- 3703.

ThomasMagnum
05-07-2007, 10:10 PM
My initial point wasn't that we should hang all the FFLs who try and get more than $10 out of the PPT. I certainly understand that the $10 doesn't really cover even basic cash expenses of the business, much less depreciable and extraordinary ones, in relation to the time expended in the process.

The real point is that I don't think the State Legislators capped the fee out of the goodness of their hearts. The cap is more than likely aimed at eliminating the incentive to perform PPT transfers. While I'm not sure what the legality of refusing to do transfers is, the state certainly wants to see the costs associated with firearm ownership as high and as onerous as possible. If you eliminate PPT transfers because it's too expensive for dealers to do them in comparison to the cap, they will simply refuse. The alternative is new weapons which increase in price with every new regulation that California mandates upon them. God forbid you're poor and want to legally purchase a handgun in this state.

I definitely sympathize with FFLs and the economics of the business, to a point. They do enjoy almost a monopoly status in certain ways since you can't do anything without them (I do however prefer that people aren't allowed to privately buy and sell guns to anyone in parking lots). A good marketer would take the PPT transfer as an opportunity to establish good will with a new customer. The idea of a "donation" to the shop is well taken but I'd hate to be trying to explain my "donation" to the state or ATF if someday they're intent on calling it a "bribe."

Make no mistake about it, the California Legislature and Attorney General's office are not out to make gun-friendly laws or exercise legitimate or logical enforcement. If they want to make an example out of you, they'll find any way they can to do so. I certainly want to make sure that when I do buy or sell that everything I do and my FFL does is to the letter of the law.

Moonclip
05-07-2007, 11:49 PM
(I do however prefer that people aren't allowed to privately buy and sell guns to anyone in parking lots). .


Why do you say this? Perfectly legal in most other states.

tenpercentfirearms
05-08-2007, 5:33 AM
I don't sweat PPTs. They are just part of the game. I do find it interesting that so many dealers break the law in order to discourage PPTs. I like to keep my business all legit and that just seems like a foolish thing to do since you never know who an agent is. PPTs are $35. It is that simple.

Well it was until I saw the part about the storage fee. :D

Travis
05-08-2007, 5:47 AM
Why do you say this? Perfectly legal in most other states.

I'm also happy people can't buy PPT guns in a parking lot. I think criminal background checks are a good thing. It doesn't take much time and certainly doesn't hurt honest people.

Travis
05-08-2007, 5:48 AM
Agreed. Complaining over $10 or $20 more? Maybe that is a little lame. But nearly EVERY PLACE in the bay area charges $45 - $100 on top of the DROS fee for a PPT. That is just plain crazy. Thank god I no longer have worry about a PPT again. :)


I think you are talking about an out of state transfer, not a PPT.

Fjold
05-08-2007, 6:05 AM
With the persecution that FFLs are going through right now by the BATFE, why would an FFL licensee knowingly violate State laws/regulations and give another regulating agency (the CA DOJ) an easy shot at taking away their licenses?

Don't you think that certain DOJ employees would love to find a legitimate reason to shutdown a bunch of FFLs?

It amazes me how stupid some people/companies are at times, you know which stores treat you right and which ones are gouging you. Given the choice of two gunshops, one which does the PPTs correctly and one who tries to nickel and dime you, which one are you going to go to for the rest of gun related purchases?

We are our own worst enemy!

paradox
05-08-2007, 6:14 AM
I usually kick in an extra $10 to my local FFL as a "donation" for providing me a convenient place to transfer my firearms. I don't have to, it's strictly voluntary.


I buy a beer when doing my paperwork and after the ten day wait with a tip each time. I'm sure there is a much greater markup on booze than guns.

God, I love the backwoods. My FFL of choice is the Sportsman in downtown Sonora. Not only can you buy a beer, gun, fishing license, and tackle without leaving the bar, they charge $35 for PPTs and $25+DROS for internet orders.

Best damn gun shop ever, despite having less than a small handful of fudd guns at any given time.

MaceWindu
05-08-2007, 6:24 AM
It would be better instead of charging the extra $10-$20, for him to just surrender the FFL and not renew it.

Then you will have won! You showed that FFL. Now what will you do? :rolleyes:

While you are all debating the importance of $20, the Dems are sitting back laughing while you fight over crumbs...

Mace

Sam Hainn
05-08-2007, 10:50 AM
Dealers should know this: I don't recall a PPT where I was buying or selling that I also didn't buy a gun, lots of ammo or other crap from that dealer. PPTs lead to addtional sales. It gets customers in the store. Last PPT buy I did of an FN FiveseveN from a person here on Calguns, I bought a rifle and some grips from the dealer doing the PPT that same day. ;)

MaceWindu
05-08-2007, 11:28 AM
I was buying or selling that I also didn't buy a gun, lots of ammo or other crap from that dealer. PPTs lead to addtional sales.

10-4 that!

Mace

Moonclip
05-08-2007, 8:13 PM
I'm also happy people can't buy PPT guns in a parking lot. I think criminal background checks are a good thing. It doesn't take much time and certainly doesn't hurt honest people.

The problem is we can't really be seen as supporting gun control. I personally have no problem with people being able to to PPTs w/o government interference. Other states have been able to do this for years after we have been denied this right and I'm sure many of these states have a lower crime rate than CA.

Cal PPT rules are mostly in my opinion just to harrass law abiding gun owners. It's not like criminals are going to go to dealers to do PPT's.

Moonclip
05-08-2007, 8:19 PM
It would be better instead of charging the extra $10-$20, for him to just surrender the FFL and not renew it.

Then you will have won! You showed that FFL. Now what will you do? :rolleyes:

While you are all debating the importance of $20, the Dems are sitting back laughing while you fight over crumbs...

Mace

As long as guns are allowed, there will be FFL's who follows the law and will do PPT's correctly. Supply and demand, if people want guns and there is money to be made, there will be always someone to supply them and the dealers who are shady or break the law will go under.

spgk380
05-08-2007, 8:28 PM
Your DROS would not be invalid.
At worst you might be contacted regarding being overcharged if DOJ found out about it an actually did something. As long as your paperwork is filled out corrctly and you have a receipt showing you paid at least what the law requires then you should be fine.
The FFL on the other hand may have issues but that's legally not your concern.

I can't really imagine this DOJ being concerned with dealers overcharging for gun sales....don't they have a stated interest in driving up the price of guns? Probably you'll get a thank you memo on DOJ letterhead.

MaceWindu
05-08-2007, 9:44 PM
Supply and demand, if people want guns and there is money to be made, there will be always someone to supply them and the dealers who are shady or break the law will go under.


Funny how everyone is quick to quote the "law" like it is the end all, be all. Just because it's a "law" does not make it "Just".

Did you go over 65mph today? Ever jay-walk? Not even recent, but ever? If so, please go down to your local police station and confess your crime.

There are few FFl's left around here, support them, stand behind them. Throw the guy few extra bucks and send business his way. You need him, he does not need you.

Additionally, at one time the "law" stated slavery was legal. Was it "just"?

Mace

Moonclip
05-08-2007, 10:08 PM
There are few FFl's left around here, support them, stand behind them. Throw the guy few extra bucks and send business his way. You need him, he does not need you.

Mace


This is the funniest thing I've read in a while!!! The business needs customers, it is not a totally captive audience. Guns are not like bread or gasoline either, it is a hobby for most everybody.

MaceWindu
05-08-2007, 10:13 PM
The FFL dealer that posted in this thread (who will remain nameless) does NOT need to do PPT.

He could tell you to pound sand and still make a profit without your PPT transaction. Why? He does not have a store-front and is a (1) man business. He in fact does not need your PPT business. Every gun deal he makes, benefits him since he has little to NO overhead as do few of the dealers left around here do. He does PPT as a courtesy.

He has explained to me the in's and out's of what he has to go through to maintain his license.

So unless you have an intimate knowledge of what it takes, you have no basis upon which to post.

Mace

Moonclip
05-08-2007, 10:40 PM
So your FFL buddy will refuse a PPT ONLY on the basis of he doesn't want to do it during stated business hours? I'm sure DOJ/BOF would like to hear about that.

If your dealer is such a hard case and doesn't need to do PPT's have him post hear and let us know who he is. PPT's are a very small part of what I and others in this HOBBY do. I'm prety sure many of us here would buy our other guns and gun related stuff elsewhere if we knew we would be refused PPT's here or charged an illegal amount to do them.

MaceWindu
05-08-2007, 10:46 PM
So your FFL buddy will refuse a PPT ONLY on the basis of he doesn't want to do it during stated business hours? I'm sure DOJ/BOF would like to hear about that.

Yeah, sure...

let us know who he is.

I'll get right on that. :rolleyes:

Show up at a man's house and demand service! :rolleyes:

Moonclip = "Blue Falcon" in the truest sense of the word. "I'm telling!"...

Still fighting over crumbs.


Mace out...

Sam Hainn
05-08-2007, 10:50 PM
I'm seeing a lot of animosity here toward FFLs on this PPT issue. Wrong approach people. Catch more flies with honey. Why not make friends with 1 or 2 FFLs in your area? Be more personal with them, repeat business. Get to know them rather than seeing them as the enemy. After a few deals you'll get your PPTs at dirt cheap & any time you want. My favorite FFL once did a PPT for me - Christmas day 2006 in his living room! He didn't charge me his $10 fee, but he did get a nice $50 bottle of wine instead! ;)

MaceWindu
05-08-2007, 10:52 PM
I have to do a lot of things in the state of CA in order to have a contractors licence. Some of those thing could be considered to be "not just" but I build them into cost into my overhead like every other legitimate business. If I want to be a licenced contractor in CA I have to follow the laws like every other legitimate contractor. An FFL should be no different and should not be exempt from the law, especially a law (PPT price cap) that is intended to encourage legal firearm transfers. I recently had an brick and mortar FFL attempt to tack a $100.00 "gun handling charge" on top of the $35.00 PPT fee. Is it "just" that they would take the cream off the top (walk ins with rare underpriced guns for sale, retail sales, $150.00 for out of state transfers +dros, consignments ect...) and not swallow the occaisional bitter pill (of an unprofitable legal requirement) like all other legitimate businesses must? I always try my best to support my local brick and mortar gun stores but when I feel they are bending me over just because they can, it is difficult to feel good about it.

I concur 100%. I'm just saying that if his total take out of the deal is $6, what is the harm of tacking on another $10?

But you do have a valid argument.

Mace

MaceWindu
05-08-2007, 10:54 PM
I'm seeing a lot of animosity here toward FFLs on this PPT issue. Wrong approach people. Catch more flies with honey. Why not make friends with 1 or 2 FFLs in your area? Be more personal with them, repeat business. Get to know them rather than seeing them as the enemy. After a few deals you'll get your PPTs at dirt cheap & any time you want. My favorite FFL once did a PPT for me - Christmas day 2006 in his living room! He didn't charge me his $10 fee, but he did get a nice $50 bottle of wine instead! ;)

Bingo! Goes directly to my point.

Moonclip = BLUE FALCON!!!:eek:

Mace

Moonclip
05-08-2007, 11:00 PM
Yeah, sure...



I'll get right on that. :rolleyes:

Show up at a man's house and demand service! :rolleyes:

Moonclip = "Blue Falcon" in the truest sense of the word. "I'm telling!"...

Still fighting over crumbs.


Mace out...

Yeah I guess I was right, your buddy is a real hard case, he does what ever he wants regardless of the law. Since you are a real expert and know all the ins and outs, I do believe to be an FFL holder you have to have stated business hours. I obviously would not bang on this guys door at 3am with a buddy demanding he do a PPT at a legal cost but being refused during business hours would be another thing.

As for "I'm telling" I can state with complete honesty I have never called DOJ about any kind of dealer misconduct no matter how tempted to and how richly deserved but there is a member here who has done so over PPT issues and his concerns were met with complete satisfaction.

What are these crumbs you speak of? I spend 1000's on guns and gun related stuff every year, if you don't believe me ask members here who have been shooting with me. My crumbs will be spent with dealers who are courteous and support me and the hobby and the law.

And it's not a "mans house" it's a business also. If your friend does not like what it takes to legally and otherwise maintain an FFL in CA, why doesn't he give it up?

MaceWindu
05-08-2007, 11:00 PM
Moonclip:

You google that yet?

I'm sure DOJ/BOF would like to hear about that.



No need for name calling.-6172crew (I understand the code word and its not needed to make your point).

Moonclip
05-08-2007, 11:08 PM
10-4 that!

Mace


In fairness to you and your 10-4 regarding supporting dealers who help us in the PPT issue I agree with you 100% on this and have stated so in other threads.

It seems kind of contradictory though. You advocate spending $ with dealers that do PPTs w/o issues but you seem to think it's cool your friend thinks he can pick and choose how and when he does PPTs during stated business hours.

I try to buy something up to and including another firearm from dealers such as Ades and Ammo Bros who generally do PPTs w/o attitude or extra fees. I never said FFLs were the enemy but neither are the customers.

bobfried
05-08-2007, 11:39 PM
In fairness to you and your 10-4 regarding supporting dealers who help us in the PPT issue I agree with you 100% on this and have stated so in other threads.

It seems kind of contradictory though. You advocate spending $ with dealers that do PPTs w/o issues but you seem to think it's cool your friend thinks he can pick and choose how and when he does PPTs during stated business hours.

I try to buy something up to and including another firearm from dealers such as Ades and Ammo Bros who generally do PPTs w/o attitude or extra fees. I never said FFLs were the enemy but neither are the customers.

OMG, I'm sure no one is going to read my post going on so many pages.

I am just reading ALOT of anamosity and overall HATRED towards FFL in general from your posts. FFL's are in the business of providing a service, read that, a SERVICE. Whilst they are technically not allowed to refuse PPT business, they sure as hell don't have to enjoy it.

How would you like it if someone came to your work, gave you a bunch of paperwork to fill out, forced you to store something for 10 days and on top of it all TAKES YOUR MONEY? FFL's such as Ade's are commendable in their servicce, but fact of the matter is, they LOOSE MONEY when they do a PPT unless it's a regular or if they buy accessories. You don't seem to understand that your "assumed right" to force an FFL to do a PPT is at the same time harming their business.

What would be the optimal scenario for you?

An FFL that only does PPT and only charges $35?

Do you know how quickly that FFL would be bankrupt?

Call me crazy but I don't like ruining a person livelyhood and making them financially desolate. For every PPT transfer I do at Ade's I spend 1000's on other stuff just to make sure he get's a fair shake at thing. If Ade started to refuse PPT, I would be pissed, but I would understand why. I sure as hell doesn't want him to go out of business, FFL's aren't like other service industries, it's one of the few service industry NOT growing in this state. I have personally witness the loss of 3 FFL's in my area over the past few years and they are NOT coming back. No one is jumping in to replace them, the last thing I want is for more FFL's to loose their business.

To sum up the rant:
- FFL's are an endagered species in this state, you might not like them but save them for your children.
- Your "right" doesn't justify someone else having to LOOSE MONEY
- The "law" is not always created in your best interest
- Give business to those that serve you well, but don't assume they HAVE to serve you

And the most important point of all:

........Guns are not like bread or gasoline either, it is a hobby for most everybody.

Gun ownership is NOT a hobby to me, it's a RIGHT!

Maybe that's where we differ.

P.S. I will give up bread (Atkins) and gasoline (electric) long before I give up my guns. I'm gonna be eating a big *** piece of meat while driving around on my electric "technical".

Moonclip
05-09-2007, 12:06 AM
Whats with the rant? I agree with you pretty much 100%! I have stated time and time again on Calguns that I spend $ with dealers that do PPT's correctly and couteously! Yes guns are very important to me and are my "hobby" and not business at this time but you have to admit for the vast majority of gun owners in the USA if it comes between paying the bills, feeding the family, the gun stuff would have to take a backseat.

Many people here it seems sell guns on calguns when forced to by demands of the real world. Are they less of a pro gun individual because of this?

I never said gun ownership/2A is a hobby and most people in the USA who own guns probably own 1-2 of them and don't give them much thought. Does anyone "need" a three digit number worth of guns? I doubt it, then it gets to hobby or lifestyle level. I am a member of pro gun orginazations and will always be a staunch supporter of retaining gun rights. Either for the hobbyist with 100 guns, a hunter with a couple of long guns, the guy who owns grandpas WW2 pistol, the inner city single mom who wants a pistol for defense, you get the picture.

People can cry about it all they want and say the law is bad but unfortunately it is the law. It's not like I enjoy spending $35 and getting scowled at when I do a PPT. I wish we could do a parking lot deal like in other states.

Moonclip
05-09-2007, 12:21 AM
Good night everyone! I have insomnia and this has been fun but I sense threadlock by the time I get back to this! Your favorite supposed "FFL hater" Moonclip out...

BTW I was at one time involved in gun industry and the fact it is a "hobby" business for most people is partly why I got out of it. In a recession or other times of trouble, buying guns/going to the range beyond what is needed for basic defense or hunting needs tends to go out the window in preference in keeping a roof over ones head regardless on how pro 2A one claims to be.

Luckily I can claim that I have never been forced to sell or stop buying guns due to financial hardship (beeen close) but I've known those who have done so.

All this discussion has me thinking I want to go buy a gun tomorrow, probably at Ades!

MaceWindu
05-09-2007, 5:10 AM
To sum up the rant:
- FFL's are an endagered species in this state, you might not like them but save them for your children.
- Your "right" doesn't justify someone else having to LOOSE MONEY
- The "law" is not always created in your best interest
- Give business to those that serve you well, but don't assume they HAVE to serve you


:) ...my point!

Mace

tenpercentfirearms
05-09-2007, 5:50 AM
Man, you all need to relax.

In my opinion dealers really shouldn't complain about a PPT. Yes it sucks, but I also have a pretty closed market due to the fact you cannot legally buy a gun except through me. So sure, the big bad government is forcing me to do a PPT for only $10 for my time. That same big bad government is also forcing you to use me for everything else and I have no cap on what I can charge. PPTs are not going to drive me out of business.

I look at it pretty simply. If your dealer is not following the law in regards to PPTs, what other laws are they breaking? What other corners are they cutting or what else are they lying to you about? What happens when the DOJ knocks on your door and wants that gun back because the DROS was not run properly and your FFL is now closed for business???

Sure that is a little bit of an exaggeration to scare you, just like if I claimed getting $10 for a PPT was going to drive me out of business and you should treat my gun shop like a non-profit and give me charity because I am so unfortunate to have to do a PPT. Please help save my children and give me more money than the law allows for my PPT because you have pity on me. :rolleyes:

Dealerís can afford to do PPTs, they just donít like it. I donít blame them, but I am not going to break the law over it either.

MaceWindu
05-09-2007, 6:14 AM
I am not going to break the law over it either.

No one said anything about breaking the law. You can't quote that anywhere in my posts.

I have a question: If you go to ANY gun store, just like any business, they have a RIGHT to refuse to do business with anyone.

TPF: Don't you have that same right? Reeds does. Sportmans Supply does. Don't you?

Mace

paradox
05-09-2007, 7:48 AM
No one said anything about breaking the law. You can't quote that anywhere in my posts.

I have a question: If you go to ANY gun store, just like any business, they have a RIGHT to refuse to do business with anyone.

TPF: Don't you have that same right? Reeds does. Sportmans Supply does. Don't you?



FFLs in California do not have the right to refuse to do a PPT. If they refuse, they can lose their license and be charged with a crime.



12071.
...
(b) A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the
following prohibitions and requirements:
...
(5) The licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and
promptly in processing firearms transactions pursuant to Section
12082.
...
12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in
accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d)
of Section 12072.
...
The purchaser or
transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the
dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and
no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for
the applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 12076,
12076.5, and 12088.9 and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and
the fees set forth in Section 12805. Nothing in these provisions
shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The dealer may
not charge any additional fees.
...
(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.

MaceWindu
05-09-2007, 7:57 AM
FFLs in California do not have the right to refuse to do a PPT. If they refuse, they can lose their license and be charged with a crime.

Big 5 has an FFL. They do not do PPT. Please advise.

Mace

paradox
05-09-2007, 8:14 AM
Big 5 has an FFL. They do not do PPT. Please advise.

Mace


They are breaking the law.

Since they don't sell handguns, they don't have to do handgun PPTs (ref: PCß12082(d) ), but they are required under law to do long-gun PPTs.

Serpentine
05-09-2007, 8:36 AM
Dead horse - already been beaten alert.

CALI-gula
05-09-2007, 8:51 AM
Dead horse - already been beaten alert.

I've heard a dead horse won't do PPTs either. I tried it once. It gave me no response. It just sat there staring at me, didn't even blink, which I felt was VERY rude. It didn't answer my questions. It didn't know a thing about customer service. I'm never going to that dead horse for PPTs ever again. I'll show him!!

.

6172crew
05-09-2007, 8:58 AM
I didnt read the whole thread but if your PPT is a handgun the FFL can add on a charge for the extra paperwork involved per the BOF so if there is a $10 fee added on then its legal.

I dont know when this started but my FFL knows his stuff and he does in fact charge for whatever it is they allow the charge for but I think he said it was for the extra paperwork and not a storage fee.

This fee should not be added for rifles though.:)

Serpentine
05-09-2007, 9:19 AM
For what it's worth, your local California law enforcement departments were doing PPT's, but as of last year, they were taken offline for that. Guess it was too time consuming, tedious, burdensome to stay up on the ever changing and complicated firearm laws, and/or not cost effective for them.

Hmmmm.......all that, and they had no overhead or profit margins to be concerned with.


A firearms dealership is a labor of love. Anyone seeking a lucrative business would certainly do something else for a living. There are five active FFL's in my county of 2 million people. That is down by 50% from last year!






.

Moonclip
05-10-2007, 10:46 PM
I think this was the most intelligent post in the thread, my own included! Got his point across very well w/o silly accusations and name calling too. Straight from the source too, after all he is a FFL. Someone should tell on Big 5 :)

BTW I didn't buy a gun yesterday but I talked my father in to doing so! I may buy one tomorrow.

I've always been of the though too that if an FFL, the saying "when life hands you lemosn make lemonade" applies. As mentioned FFLs do have an unique position in that in order to order a gun from out of state or to buy most types of guns you have to use their services. It's not like you can order one out of JC Penny catalog and have it sent to your door.

And it's not like fast food or a grocery store where there is another option on every corner. Some areas don't have all that many active storefront FFLs.

Your average joe will not travel 50miles to buy a gun like me, just settling for whatever local who can sell a gun good service or not.


Man, you all need to relax.

In my opinion dealers really shouldn't complain about a PPT. Yes it sucks, but I also have a pretty closed market due to the fact you cannot legally buy a gun except through me. So sure, the big bad government is forcing me to do a PPT for only $10 for my time. That same big bad government is also forcing you to use me for everything else and I have no cap on what I can charge. PPTs are not going to drive me out of business.

I look at it pretty simply. If your dealer is not following the law in regards to PPTs, what other laws are they breaking? What other corners are they cutting or what else are they lying to you about? What happens when the DOJ knocks on your door and wants that gun back because the DROS was not run properly and your FFL is now closed for business???

Sure that is a little bit of an exaggeration to scare you, just like if I claimed getting $10 for a PPT was going to drive me out of business and you should treat my gun shop like a non-profit and give me charity because I am so unfortunate to have to do a PPT. Please help save my children and give me more money than the law allows for my PPT because you have pity on me. :rolleyes:

Dealerís can afford to do PPTs, they just donít like it. I donít blame them, but I am not going to break the law over it either.

PIRATE14
05-11-2007, 1:26 PM
They are breaking the law.

Since they don't sell handguns, they don't have to do handgun PPTs (ref: PCß12082(d) ), but they are required under law to do long-gun PPTs.

Well the ATF guys will tell you that any FFL can refuse any transfer.....period.

I am waiting for the DOJ and ATF guys to get together..........

I've never heard of an FFL getting closed or fined by refusing to do a PPT or charging extra $$$$$.

It's another useless law on the books........plus this thread always pops up every 3 mos or so........kinda like the tax on transfer threads.......

You live in CALI..............;)

bwiese
05-11-2007, 1:39 PM
Well the ATF guys will tell you that any FFL can refuse any transfer.....period.

Yes, but if they violate CA law and lose their CA ticket then they lose their FFL.

FFLs are obliged to follow state laws as well. Violation of a state law is grounds for losing FFL.


I've never heard of an FFL getting closed or fined by refusing to do a PPT or charging extra $$$$$.

They're saving that for next week.

It IS specifically codified in the law, and was intentionally added so folks will always have a ready way to legally do papered transfers of firearms. The thinking was, if there's no legit way to do this, it would increase illegal unpapered firearms sales.

Serpentine
05-11-2007, 2:45 PM
Yes, but if they violate CA law and lose their CA ticket then they lose their FFL.

FFLs are obliged to follow state laws as well. Violation of a state law is grounds for losing FFL.

The laws conflict. One (ATF) says "right to refuse," and one (CA DOJ) says "misdemeanor if you refuse." Can't be a CA dealer without an FFL.....defers rank to the Feds.




.

Fjold
05-11-2007, 3:03 PM
The laws conflict. One (ATF) says "right to refuse," and one (CA DOJ) says "misdemeanor if you refuse." Can't be a CA dealer without an FFL.....defers rank to the Feds.

.

ATF says right to refuse? Is that law or regulation?


States may impose further restrictions/limitations than federal laws. Every Ca gunlaw proves that.

bwiese
05-11-2007, 6:20 PM
The laws conflict. One (ATF) says "right to refuse," and one (CA DOJ) says "misdemeanor if you refuse." Can't be a CA dealer without an FFL.....defers rank to the Feds.

Serpentine, you just don't get it. You are absolutely 100% incontrovertibly incorrect.

This is not an issue of Fed vs CA supremacy.

And just because Big5 does not do PPTs does not mean it's illegal.

ATF *casually* says they have a right to refuse: this is a phone clerk or agent answer, in broad strokes, based on general concept of "you can refuse to do biz with whomever you want" and not thinking of CA's unique requirement.

But if pressed in detail, and a knowledgeable person is answering, they of course would say California law applies to CA gun sales. A real ATF legal dept answer would agree with me.

Think of it this way: all other CA gun laws apply, why would this be the exception? In fact Fed gun laws go out of the way to accomodate state gun laws: there's specific law & regulations saying it's illegal for FFL to disobey state laws (and, additionally, grounds for FFL revocation).

CA 1208x law says gun dealers MUST handle PPTs and that they can't do funky hours ("Sorry we only do PPTs at midnight of the 3rd Tuesday after a full moon.") They must do it for long guns; they only have to do it for handguns if they sell handguns. (This is perhaps how Big5 is misinterpreting things.)

Not only is a refusal to do so codified as a violation of Penal Code, it'd also be grounds for California gun dealer permit revocation/lack of renewal. Since most FFLs are issued cooperatively with that state permit as well as with zoning and biz license, the Federal FFL could be lost too (for multiple reasons - loss of state permit and violation of state law).

E Pluribus Unum
05-11-2007, 7:01 PM
The laws conflict. One (ATF) says "right to refuse," and one (CA DOJ) says "misdemeanor if you refuse." Can't be a CA dealer without an FFL.....defers rank to the Feds.

The laws do not conflict, they augment. I refuse to argue matters of law. Lets just put it all out there. You say the laws conflict, show me.

Dealers CAN and DO refuse transfers all the time and its perfectly legal. If I buy a gun online and try to get a local gun shop to do the transfer its perfectly legal for them to refuse.

If however my friend and I show up to ANY licensed dealer in California they MUST transfer the gun for $10.00 and they have no right to refuse. I will spell it out for you.

California Penal Code 12071(b)(5):

The licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions pursuant to Section 12082.

That section REQUIRES the FFL (licensee) to do the following transaction:

California Penal Code 12082. (a)

A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in
accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d)
of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the
firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain
possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm
to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the
firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c)
of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to
the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm,
the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the
waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the
firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the
firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or
transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would
constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the
dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller
or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith
deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of
police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or
city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner
provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or
person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay
a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee
may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable
fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section
12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from
charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the
fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the
dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a
purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without
any other parties being involved in the transaction.

What all that legal mumbo jumbo means is this:

Private Party Transfers MUST be done through a licensed dealer.

The seller MUST deliver the firearm to the dealer who keeps the firearm during the 10-day waiting period.

After the 10 day wait the dealer MUST transfer the firearm to they buyer if the buyer passes the background.

If the Buyer does NOT pass the background but the seller does, then the gun MUST be returned to the seller.

If NEITHER pass the background check the gun MUST be turned over to the police department for destruction.

The price CANNOT exceed $10; plus the department's processing fee (currently $25).

This is where the $35 fee comes from; $25 to the state and $10 to the gun store.



I hope this helps.


P.S.
I am not saying you are wrong per se... just show me the law you are claiming conflicts with it.

TempName
05-11-2007, 7:06 PM
Big 5 employees seem to need "special help." It's clear it doesn't take a whole lot to be a Big 5 employee. I think they hire what Walmart rejects. Yes, even Walmart rejects some employees.

6172crew
05-11-2007, 7:50 PM
Big 5 employees seem to need "special help." It's clear it doesn't take a whole lot to be a Big 5 employee. I think they hire what Walmart rejects. Yes, even Walmart rejects some employees.

Shoot Im willing to bet that if you guys start pushing the Big5 into doing PPT that they will pack up shop and stop selling guns all together, if you remember they stopped selling handguns because idiots in LA cleaned out the stores during the Rodney King riots....within days Big 5 said it would no longer sell handguns.

Im pretty sure the BOF wouldnt loose any sleep over calguns members shutting down another FFL ethier.:cool:

Serpentine
05-11-2007, 7:52 PM
You guys don't have to convince me. I'm not your FFL dealer. I do enjoy the invigorating, well mannered debate.

I've never seen a merchant that is forced to do business with anyone and everyone or else lose his license (his livelihood), except for in a communistic government.

O.J. Simpson was just booted from a restaurant because the owner didn't like how he has "tortured the Brown family." Is the owner of that restaurant going to lose his license now?

Big-5 is probably the largest FFL dealer in CA, by the numbers. What would exempt them from doing PPT's? I know of none that will oblige this service.

As for hard and fast codified law? It is the best we can do to have civility in society. We must uphold it. Does it always function as intended? No.

See: common law
Function: noun
: the body of law developed in England primarily from judicial decisions based on custom and precedent, unwritten in statute or code, and constituting the basis of the English legal system and of the system in all of the U∑S. except Louisiana

Moonclip
05-11-2007, 7:53 PM
I think Big 5 stopped selling handguns in the late 1970's or so. At least in the LA/OC areas, don't know about other states or Nor Cal. I have a 32acp Bernardelli that belonged to my grandfather that was purchased at Big 5 in the 70's.

tenpercentfirearms
05-11-2007, 8:06 PM
I've never seen a merchant that is forced to do business with anyone and everyone or else lose his license (his livelihood), except for in a communistic government.

O.J. Simpson was just booted from a restaurant because the owner didn't like how he has "tortured the Brown family." Is the owner of that restaurant going to lose his license now?

Big-5 is probably the largest FFL dealer in CA, by the numbers. What would exempt them from doing PPT's? I know of none that will oblige this service.

As for hard and fast codified law? It is the best we can do to have civility in society. We must uphold it. Does it always function as intended? No.

LOL. He doesn't want to read what we are showing him. Just in case you hadn't noticed, you live in the People's Republik of Kalifornia. We are a communist state, well at least socialist to the extreme.

Your restaurant example is apples to oranges. There is no requirement that you must buy your food from a licensed restaurant. As many have shown you, there is a law that says a dealer can only refuse handgun PPTs if they don't do handguns. That pretty much implies I have to do PPTs whether I like it or not.

There are many people out there who do not follow the complex laws of this state. Not following the law does not establish legality. If you refuse a PPT, you are breaking the law. Is anyone going to call you on it? Probably not. Are you going to lose your license? Probably not. You are still breaking the law though.

Ok, this horse is dead.

PIRATE14
05-11-2007, 9:43 PM
Well if two banger type dudes walk into a gun shop and want to do a PPT on SKS.........

Your telling me that CALI PC is going to force the FFL into completing the xfer?????:rolleyes:

Highly unlikely but possible..........:p

Here's another, one guy and a couple, but only the girl is taking the PPT for the boyfriend........


HHHMMMM......

paradox
05-12-2007, 5:53 AM
Well if two banger type dudes walk into a gun shop and want to do a PPT on SKS.........

Your telling me that CALI PC is going to force the FFL into completing the xfer?????:rolleyes:


If the person buying the SKS passes the DROS check, then yes, CA PC requires the FFL complete the transfer. Hoodrats might not raise a stink if they get booted out of the shop, but you never know if they might have lawyer connections....


Here's another, one guy and a couple, but only the girl is taking the PPT for the boyfriend........


Then the dealer has reason to believe a straw purchase is being made and can cancel the transfer in good conscious with firm legal footing.

And for the record, I think the law is stupid: we should be able to buy a gun cash Ďn carry from our local hardware store like our fathers were able to. And I personally wouldnít rat out an FFL for refusing to PPT, but then again, Iím not the sort of person who would rat out anyone who committed a victimless misdemeanor....

E Pluribus Unum
05-12-2007, 5:32 PM
Here is why it is legislated:

This may or may not be known by most people but for MOST guns, dealers make a killing. Some of the high volume guns (like Glock) they do not but for the most part they are well-compensated. This is of course not without risk; the risk does justify the reward however.

Example:

Let’s say that a ABC gun store's price on an SKS is $150. Let’s say he usually turns around and sells that gun for $300.00. That gun dealer has 3 SKS rifles on the shelf marked at $300.00 he is trying to sell.

Joe Bob is a guy in Mississippi that has no overhead and sells guns out of his house. He can buy that SKS from the same place as ABC gun store and mark it up to $175.00 because he has no expenses. He sells it to you over the internet and then you go to ABC Gun store to do the transfer. It’s just as much work for ABC to transfer the gun whether he sold it to you but now you expect him to transfer it to you for $50? Meanwhile ABC still has three SKS rifles on the wall. To avoid this from happening ABC guns gets smart. They start charging $200 for "internet transfers". This makes it prohibitively expensive to buy guns online; you better find such a good deal that it saves you more than $200 off the sticker at a local store.

On a side note I will quote what I think is fair:

DROS takes 10 minutes tops. Because guns deal with legalities there is some risk involved and they should be compensated for that. I figure that one hour labor is a fair amount to pay for a shop's 10 minutes in front of the computer. This puts a "fair" DROS amount at between $50-$85

Prior to 1992 with regards to consignment guns et cetera gun stores routinely charged upwards of $200 for a transfer to encourage patrons to buy the guns the store already stocked. Some FFLs flat refused to do any transfers of guns that were not stocked by the store.

In 1992 they passed a law that forbade all private gun sales by non FFLs and REQUIRED citizens to do it through an FFL. If FFLs had a right to refuse transfers or charged a large sum of money for these transfers they knew the populous would not do it. If you had to drive 45 miles to the nearest FFL that agreed to a transfer how many people would just cash and carry?

To deter people from "cash and carry" in the back of Vons they legislated it and FORCED FFL licensees to do all face-to-face PPTs for $10.00. This way finding an FFL to do the transfer would be easy and cheap for someone trying to sell a gun private party.

E Pluribus Unum
05-12-2007, 8:21 PM
Kimber:
Its been debated elsewhere; I will not rehash it here. I am very familiar with the inner-workings of a gun shop. It is not uncommon for an FFL to make 50-100% markup; that is a killing. I am not saying that gun shops don't have to deal with a lot of BS and maintain a lot of inventory; they are however rewarded for it. That is my informed opinion based on experience; I am sorry if you do not agree.

hoffmang
05-12-2007, 8:29 PM
It is news to me that Big5 doesn't do PPTs. One of those Itrader rankings above was an SU-16CA rifle PPTed at a Big5 in the east bay. Maybe you were referring to handguns (which they can refuse to PPT since they don't deal in handguns.)

-Gene

PIRATE14
05-12-2007, 8:58 PM
Kimber:
It is not uncommon for an FFL to make 50-100% markup; that is a killing. I am not saying that gun shops don't have to deal with a lot of BS and maintain a lot of inventory; they are however rewarded for it. That is my informed opinion based on experience; I am sorry if you do not agree.

50-100 percent.......ya kill me....LMAO.....

If that was truely the case, everyone would be a gundealer.......;)

Serpentine
05-12-2007, 9:12 PM
50-100 percent? Ha! You must have been one of those dishonest scheisters that rip off widows!

Try 10-20% on a good month. Oh, and don't forget.....Rent, taxes, wages, insurance, utilities, safes, security systems, displays, advertising, attorney fees, bookeeping fees, payroll fees, janitorial, license renewal fees, remodeling, technology (computers), association fees, logging, LE tracings, inspections, tracking, triple-checking paperwork, constant stress, and the extreme regulations and responsibilties to the local City, County, Fire, Police, Public Safety, ATF, BOE, IRS, FTB, and DOJ officials.


There are five active storefront FFL's for 2 million people in my County. No one wants to do it. Now you know why.







,

M. Sage
05-12-2007, 9:37 PM
(I do however prefer that people aren't allowed to privately buy and sell guns to anyone in parking lots).

I would prefer that we could only buy and sell in parking lots. Two of my guns were obtained in parking lots (in a free state!), one was a trade for another gun.

tenpercentfirearms
05-12-2007, 11:06 PM
50-100%! I need to raise my prices.

E Pluribus Unum
05-12-2007, 11:48 PM
50-100%! I need to raise my prices.

Obviously thats not on everything... What about my SKS example?? Dealer price is about $150... what do you sell them for?

And the Off List Lower?? Dealer price is $100, you sell them for $170.00. That 70% markup.

This is why I did not want to argue about it. I think your prices are perfectly justified. With all the legal BS you have to jump through to get all the licenses and the legalities of it but lets face it; there are items you make a huge markup on.

Compare it to my business; the computer business. Anyone can go to Walmart and purchase a PC for $500.00. If I build that same PC it takes two hours and I am lucky to make $30.00 on it. When you buy a gun it sits on the shelf until its sold. When I buy a hard drive it depreciates so fast that within a month is worth $20 less than what I bought it for.

Like I said; I am not knocking it. I do think however $200 for a DROS is exploiting the license.

tenpercentfirearms
05-13-2007, 6:51 AM
You have a good point about PCs. I can see how that would be frustrating. I don't mark things up any given percentage. I basically mark my items up for what they will sell for. I have seen some people not in the gun business thing that is wrong because it appears they mark everything up a given percentage. My markups are all over the place, the lowers probably being my biggest winner and uppers being the worst. The bad part is a lower only costs $90-$100 and a upper costs at least $400!!! It sucks sinking all of your money into parts that make you the least profit. Oh well.

E Pluribus Unum
05-13-2007, 11:06 AM
You have a good point about PCs. I can see how that would be frustrating. I don't mark things up any given percentage. I basically mark my items up for what they will sell for. I have seen some people not in the gun business thing that is wrong because it appears they mark everything up a given percentage. My markups are all over the place, the lowers probably being my biggest winner and uppers being the worst. The bad part is a lower only costs $90-$100 and a upper costs at least $400!!! It sucks sinking all of your money into parts that make you the least profit. Oh well.

I hear you buddy. I have a theory on that... :)

Anyone can buy an upper and have it shipped directly to his house. The lower has to be purchased through a gun dealer. Basic supply and demand... :)

"I don't mark things up any given percentage. I basically mark my items up for what they will sell for."

That is basic business 101; As I said, I never claimed that gun shops charge too much for guns. Gun prices determine themeselves; if its too much, no one will buy them.

There is enough competition that shops will compete for your business on a firearm. Where I do not understand is with regards to transfers. They all charge upwards of $200 for 10 minutes of work. With a firearm they must risk capital by purchasing the firearm and letting it sit on the shelf. That is an investment that deserves a return. With a transfer, no capital was risked. I can understand charging one hour of labor but $200 an hour is a bit high. As I said before; they do it to encourage people to buy the guns on the shelf and not deal with internet vendors. It's business; I am not prepared to jump through the hoops to get an FFL so I must deal with it; thats part of the game. :)

Back on topic:
If it were not legislated, I am sure that most gun shops would charge the same for a PPT as an "internet transfer".

Ratters
05-13-2007, 12:06 PM
As far as PPT, I don't care if they raise the price another 10 bucks. I do care that they do it on my schedule as it is part of good customer service to me. That's one of the reasons I don't shop Canyon Sports anymore. They only do PPT on Saturday (except for the saturday I went in where they were having a sale :rolleyes: ) Sure, they may not make much money on the transfer but for each PPT I've done in the past two years well over half the time I bought a new gun from the same dealer on the same day. Since the only way for me to do a transfer is through a dealer, they must make that process available on more than a limited basis. And I reward those that do with my business.