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View Full Version : Very Happy with my AR Title 1 Firearm!


Capybara
05-17-2012, 4:31 PM
Have been getting acquainted, this is definitely most fun to shoot gun I have. Spike's pistol lower, 11' barrel upper with YHM quad, Magpul BAD, Hogue Grip, Aimpoint Pro

http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w489/capybara84/ART1FullL.jpg

I have discovered that the combination of the VFG, pistol grip, buffer tube and a tight Magpul sling allow me to hold this gun very steady.

http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w489/capybara84/ART1Trigger.jpg

Michael at www.ebrworks.com assembled this for me. Thanks Michael, you do great work. I highly recommend acquiring one if you are looking for a fun gun and want something a little different than a regular pistol or rifle.

http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w489/capybara84/ART1Receiver.jpg
http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w489/capybara84/ART1BarrelVFG.jpg
http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w489/capybara84/ART1BAD.jpg
http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w489/capybara84/ART1Full.jpg

Arkangel
05-17-2012, 4:36 PM
Looking good, I can't wait to finish mine.

Capybara
05-17-2012, 4:44 PM
I'm glad I went with the long barrel. I can use the VFG instead of an AFG and I have heard quite a few cycling issues with the really short barrels.

QuarterBoreGunner
05-17-2012, 5:08 PM
Is that VFG on backwards?

Capybara
05-17-2012, 5:30 PM
I just found this http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=19&t=515246

Just looking at the illustration in the above link and I am not sure which way is correct. It shows the shorter end should be forward in the link. But I like the little stippled area on my fingers rather than palm. I use it straight up and down to get the best brace to push it away from me so I suppose it doesn't really matter? The finger ridges are toward the palm, which means it probably is backwards though.

QuarterBoreGunner
05-17-2012, 5:32 PM
It's still cool.

Capybara
05-17-2012, 5:38 PM
Ha, ha! Thanks. I do love it. Just think, 6 months ago, I had never even heard of an AR pistol, now it is my favorite range toy. Such a different animal than my big, heavy AR.

readysetgo
05-17-2012, 6:09 PM
Just for claritys sake you mean "Title II" firearm, right?
Either way, congrats!

The*National Firearms Act (“NFA“),*73rd Congress, Sess. 2, ch. 757, 48*Stat. 1236, enacted on 26 June 1934, currently codified as amended as 26 U.S.C. ch.*53, is an*Act of Congress that, in general, imposes a statutory*excise tax on the manufacture and transfer of*certain firearms and mandates the registration of those firearms. The Act was passed shortly after the repeal of*Prohibition. The NFA is also referred to as*Title II of the Federal firearms laws. The*Gun Control Act of 1968(“GCA”) is Title I.

Edit: I stand corrected, as Capy and others have pointed out this is NOT a Title II AOW which was my first assumption and hence the confusion on my part.

FX-05 Xiuhcoatl
05-17-2012, 6:16 PM
that AR looks nice.

Capybara
05-17-2012, 9:19 PM
Nah, Title II is an NFA firearm (AOW, MG, DD, SBR, SBS). Title I is an ordinary, unrestricted firearm, just like your 10/22 or your AR. We call it a Title I Firearm because of the classification of this gun by the ATF. As far as they are concerned, with an OAL of more than 26", this is not a pistol, but without a butt stock, it is obviously not a rifle. So what is it? It's not an AOW. So on the 4473, it is an "other" aka a "Title I Firearm".

As far as California is concerned, it is a pistol and it was SSE transferred with a zero round sled. I know, it's confusing, isn't it?

I salute Franklin Armory, who with their XO-26, received the ATF ruling that clarified this. I carry a copy of the ATF letter in this gun's case but it is encouraging, the range I shoot at sells the XO-26 and has one in their gun rental stock so seeing this gun at the range is becoming less and less of a novelty. This is the closes you can get to an SBR in California and while not as good, it is decent substitute.

Just for claritys sake you mean "Title II" firearm, right?
Either way, congrats!

The*National Firearms Act (“NFA“),*73rd Congress, Sess. 2, ch. 757, 48*Stat. 1236, enacted on 26 June 1934, currently codified as amended as 26 U.S.C. ch.*53, is an*Act of Congress that, in general, imposes a statutory*excise tax on the manufacture and transfer of*certain firearms and mandates the registration of those firearms. The Act was passed shortly after the repeal of*Prohibition. The NFA is also referred to as*Title II of the Federal firearms laws. The*Gun Control Act of 1968(“GCA”) is Title I.

MikeR
05-17-2012, 10:20 PM
Nice AOW. I about shat myself when i saw that Turners is selling AOWs.

MrPlink
05-18-2012, 12:20 AM
very cool.

I built a Title1 non-rfile-pistol-as-far-as-CA-AWB AR15 (I dont know what to call em either?!?!)

I used a rifle length extension to hit minimal length. Runs like a top, I swear I will post current pix of it one day too!

QuarterBoreGunner
05-18-2012, 6:31 AM
Nice AOW. I about shat myself when i saw that Turners is selling AOWs.

Not an AOW.


Read the post one above yours. This is a Title 1 firearm - *not* an AOW.

Capybara
05-18-2012, 6:50 AM
Nice AOW. I about shat myself when i saw that Turners is selling AOWs.

Technically not an AOW. If it were an AOW, I would have to have the trust and a tax stamp. Because the OAL is greater than 26", the ATF has ruled that these are NOT AOWs.

I have been in several gun shops lately, including Turners, that are selling the XO-26 as well as home brewed ARs like this. It is a cool concept.

EBR Works
05-18-2012, 8:19 AM
Congrats! The photos look great.

Capybara
05-18-2012, 9:23 AM
Thanks Michael, you did a nice job.

mike_the_wino
05-18-2012, 9:55 AM
Nice!

Such a different animal than my big, heavy AR.
um, did you forget the smiley? 'big, heavy AR'? huh? If an AR is heavy, you have too much doo-doo hanging off of it. :p

Untamed1972
05-18-2012, 10:06 AM
So being over 26" allows for the legal use of the VFG?

Capybara
05-18-2012, 10:26 AM
Nice!


um, did you forget the smiley? 'big, heavy AR'? huh? If an AR is heavy, you have too much doo-doo hanging off of it. :p

Well, it's all relative. I have the Windham SRC, it is a 16" carbine and the only thing I have hanging off of it is the Nikon .223 2x8 scope. No VFG, no rails, no extra junk. I like minimalist ARs a lot more, I hate tacticool.

Windham SRC - 6.3 lbs
10/20 PMAG - 5 oz
Nikon M223 2x8x32 - 15.7 oz
Nikon M223 scope mount 5.5 oz
__________________________

7lbs 10.5 oz?


There is a little tacticool on this but I needed the Aimpoint and needed the rail for the VFG.

AR Title 1 Firearm - 5.5 lbs
10/20 PMAG - 5 oz
Aimpoint Pro - 7.8 oz
__________________________

6lbs 1.8 oz?

Hmm, maybe it is more the size. 27.9" for Title 1 Firearm vs. 34.5" for AR?

Definitely feels different.

Capybara
05-18-2012, 10:27 AM
So being over 26" allows for the legal use of the VFG?

Yes. If you go here, you can read the ATF letter that Franklin Armory received.
http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26.html

Click on ATF letter.

BakerStBobby
05-18-2012, 10:33 AM
Awesome lookin weapon!!!

Untamed1972
05-18-2012, 10:43 AM
Yes. If you go here, you can read the ATF letter that Franklin Armory received.
http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26.html

Click on ATF letter.


And under CA statute/definition what is it classified as? Where does it fall within existing AW laws, thus requiring a BB to make it legal?

ICONIC
05-18-2012, 10:57 AM
I swear these laws get more confusing as I read them.

EBR Works
05-18-2012, 11:02 AM
And under CA statute/definition what is it classified as? Where does it fall within existing AW laws, thus requiring a BB to make it legal?

It's still a pistol by Cali law, so it needs a BB.

Untamed1972
05-18-2012, 11:31 AM
It's still a pistol by Cali law, so it needs a BB.

gotcha :thumbsup:

Wizard99
05-18-2012, 1:52 PM
And because it is a pistol it needs to be transported in a locked case. Unlike an AR rifle which does not need to be in a locked case.

Untamed1972
05-21-2012, 10:24 AM
Quick question these. Does it need to build and configured this way from the get-go to be classfied as a title 1 firearm?

As in, if you already had AR pistol, can you add a longer barrel to meet the 26" OAL to allow for the use of VFG etc? Or because it was originally build as a pistol you're stuck with pistol restrictions?

Conversely what about a rifle? Could you convert an existing rifle to this config by adding shorter barrel and plain buffer tube? Or does doing so just mean you created an SBR even w/o a buttstock?

Untamed1972
05-21-2012, 10:26 AM
Quick question these. Does it need to build and configured this way from the get-go to be classfied as a title 1 firearm?

As in, if you already had AR pistol, can you add a longer barrel to meet the 26" OAL to allow for the use of VFG etc? Or because it was originally build as a pistol you're stuck with pistol restrictions? (ie cuz is was "originally designed to be fired with one hand)

Conversely what about a rifle? Could you convert an existing rifle to this config by adding shorter barrel and plain buffer tube? Or does doing so just mean you created an SBR even w/o a buttstock?

Untamed1972
05-22-2012, 7:50 AM
Quick question these. Does it need to build and configured this way from the get-go to be classfied as a title 1 firearm?

As in, if you already had AR pistol, can you add a longer barrel to meet the 26" OAL to allow for the use of VFG etc? Or because it was originally build as a pistol you're stuck with pistol restrictions? (ie cuz is was "originally designed to be fired with one hand)

Conversely what about a rifle? Could you convert an existing rifle to this config by adding shorter barrel and plain buffer tube? Or does doing so just mean you created an SBR even w/o a buttstock?


:gene:

EBR Works
05-22-2012, 8:02 AM
See below:

Quick question these. Does it need to build and configured this way from the get-go to be classfied as a title 1 firearm?

As in, if you already had AR pistol, can you add a longer barrel to meet the 26" OAL to allow for the use of VFG etc? Or because it was originally build as a pistol you're stuck with pistol restrictions? (ie cuz is was "originally designed to be fired with one hand) Yes, you can do this. It would still be a pistol

Conversely what about a rifle? Could you convert an existing rifle to this config by adding shorter barrel and plain buffer tube? Or does doing so just mean you created an SBR even w/o a buttstock? No, you cannot create a pistol from a rifle.

Untamed1972
05-22-2012, 8:43 AM
See below:

It would still be a pistol under CA law, but does it cause any problems federally?

Once converted can it be converted back to pistol with say shorter barrel?

jonc
05-22-2012, 8:53 AM
nice!!!

EBR Works
05-22-2012, 9:24 AM
It would still be a pistol under CA law, but does it cause any problems federally? Nope

Once converted can it be converted back to pistol with say shorter barrel?It's still a pistol, so no problem.

...

Untamed1972
05-22-2012, 9:32 AM
Cool.....thanks for the clarifications.....I might be finding myself in the market for a new 11" upper :D

Capybara
05-22-2012, 10:03 AM
Hope you have a line on obtaining a pistol lower. They are a bit harder to come by in California. Unless you are a LEO, you cannot just buy one new. You can do an 80% or you can buy one PPT but there aren't many around.

Untamed1972
05-22-2012, 11:07 AM
Hope you have a line on obtaining a pistol lower. They are a bit harder to come by in California. Unless you are a LEO, you cannot just buy one new. You can do an 80% or you can buy one PPT but there aren't many around.


But if one already owned a complete pistol then it would just be as simple as swapping uppers :whistling:

Capybara
05-22-2012, 11:55 AM
True enough.

I just transferred two stripped lowers today. I wish I could use them to make a pistol but there was no way to do that.

torquefliteterror
05-22-2012, 11:57 AM
But if one already owned a complete pistol then it would just be as simple as swapping uppers :whistling:

I'd agree as long as you have the longer buffer tube that would throw the overall length to over 26".

techinically you could use a shorter barrel like the letter originally states but i'm sure Franklin arms goes with the 11" to make sure you don't inadvertently create an AOW if you were to remove your flash suppressor while the upper is mounted to the lower and would drop below the 26" requirement.

Also regardless of length according to the ATF letter , If you conceal it on your person, it automatically becomes an AOW. So no hiding this thing under a coat!

Untamed1972
05-22-2012, 12:43 PM
I'd agree as long as you have the longer buffer tube that would throw the overall length to over 26".

techinically you could use a shorter barrel like the letter originally states but i'm sure Franklin arms goes with the 11" to make sure you don't inadvertently create an AOW if you were to remove your flash suppressor while the upper is mounted to the lower and would drop below the 26" requirement.

Also regardless of length according to the ATF letter , If you conceal it on your person, it automatically becomes an AOW. So no hiding this thing under a coat!

for sure.....one would need to make sure it meets the OAL requirement for sure. That's what tape measures are for :D

ETA: You could always avoid that issue too by just removing the VFG before doing any other work....cuz w/o the VFG....it's just a pistol right?

Capybara
05-22-2012, 4:31 PM
Yes. For those worried about it, you could just swap the VFG out for an AFG and you are GTG with any barrel length.

Capybara
05-22-2012, 4:33 PM
Yes, mine is a hair under 28" long and just to make sure, I removed the flash suppressor and I am at 26 and 1/4" long so I don't have to pin and weld the suppressor. Good call on this detail, you must be at OAL greater than 26" without the flash suppressor unless the suppressor is pinned and welded.

techinically you could use a shorter barrel like the letter originally states but i'm sure Franklin arms goes with the 11" to make sure you don't inadvertently create an AOW if you were to remove your flash suppressor while the upper is mounted to the lower and would drop below the 26" requirement.

torquefliteterror
05-22-2012, 5:07 PM
Yes, mine is a hair under 28" long and just to make sure, I removed the flash suppressor and I am at 26 and 1/4" long so I don't have to pin and weld the suppressor. Good call on this detail, you must be at OAL greater than 26" without the flash suppressor unless the suppressor is pinned and welded.


While they make no mention of pinning and welding like what is done in short barrels on non-SBRs, It might be a good idea.

they made the desicion based on the overal length but made no mention to permanenance. I think it does not have to be permanent though, as it becomes an AOW with the mere concealing of the weapon. even if you pinned and welded to reach "permanent" overall status, it would still be an AOW the moment you tucked it under your coat.

These laws are terrible. they can turn a regular person into instant felon with one wrong configuration.

artoaster
05-23-2012, 12:34 AM
Here's my question for either OP or EBR, If you obtain 80% lower and finish it you can buy a pistol upper or pistol kit (like PSA) and just assemble and you're GTG, right?

Now, what about SSE and zero round sled or original length of barrel? Does barrel have to be certain length or can you just go with your 80% lower and whatever pistol type upper you want?

Regarding lower, is it suggested on an 80% to engrave "Pistol" along with place of manufacture, manufacturer, ser. #, caliber?

MrPlink
05-23-2012, 1:33 AM
Now, what about SSE and zero round sled or original length of barrel?



Ive heard this one debated. Practically speaking, provided the SSE requirement stands for home builds, save for a verbal admission it would be nigh impossible to prove that it was NOT done in the first place. On the other hand, it is pretty easy to comply with to play it safe. As far as the actual legal application, I will leave this one to the big dogs.




Regarding lower, is it suggested on an 80% to engrave "Pistol" along with place of manufacture, manufacturer, ser. #, caliber?

no requirement for this what so ever. If you are planning on selling/transferring then there are requirements as per the ATF marking manufacturer (your name) where it was made, serial etc etc. There are guidelines on size and depth of said markings as well. No requirement to mark it as pistol under any circumstances. Some manufacturers do this because it makes them (and possibly dealers and customers) feel like they have a little more protection but once again, no need at all for the marking, no mention of it on the FED or state level.

JUm3
05-23-2012, 1:59 AM
quick q. I'm considering building a pistol/ar... Once registered as a pistol, can I convert it back to a ar15 with a buttstock -provided i attain the proper length barrel/upper and reinstall a BB?

Question 2, use of preban usgi's on pistols? gtg or no.

MrPlink
05-23-2012, 2:32 AM
quick q. I'm considering building a pistol/ar... Once registered as a pistol, can I convert it back to a ar15 with a buttstock -provided i attain the proper length barrel/upper and reinstall a BB?

Question 2, use of preban usgi's on pistols? gtg or no.


1) registration is voluntary. What makes you think AR pistols do not need a maglock (bb)? You CAN turn it into a rifle, however turning it back to a pistol triggers illegal SBR status. IIRC the ATF made a recent adjustment on this, Im not clear on what it is or if it is compatible with CA law.

2) No magazines over 10rds in AR pistols in this state, does not matter when you got them.

Please read the flow chart and links on top of the forum.

(btw if any mods are listening, can we get this phrase ^ turned into a macro that we can just execute like the emoticons? )

artoaster
05-23-2012, 6:58 AM
I wish there was a sticky on this subject.

franklinarmory
05-23-2012, 9:45 AM
Couple things....

1) You can go from "Pistol" to "Other" to "Pistol" federally. There is no problem with that. You have to be 21 years of age for either class, so there is no state interest in precluding the reconfigurations. Of course, Ca is going to say that each configuration is still a pistol (unless you use a 16"+ barrel.)
2) Do not use a barrel so short that it will violate the 26" rule if the muzzle device is removed. ATF has decided that that would violate the NFA unless you register it as an AOW or permanently pin the muzzle device.

I have to admit, I don't understand why a removable muzzle device cannot be included in the OAL, especially when the receiver extension is removable and available in many different lengths. However, that is what Chief Spencer has determined.

In case anyone is curious, Michael was polite enough to ask about replicating the XO-26 concept before jumping in, and I respect him for that.

torquefliteterror
05-23-2012, 10:02 AM
thanks for the extra info.
Where is the determination on permanently pinning the muzzle device. was it in an additional letter? just curious I like to see all the info. I don't get it either , it seems "other" is not a permanent status according to the way the law is written.

Couple things....

1) You can go from "Pistol" to "Other" to "Pistol" federally. There is no problem with that. You have to be 21 years of age for either class, so there is no state interest in precluding the reconfigurations. Of course, Ca is going to say that each configuration is still a pistol (unless you use a 16"+ barrel.)
2) Do not use a barrel so short that it will violate the 26" rule if the muzzle device is removed. ATF has decided that that would violate the NFA unless you register it as an AOW or permanently pin the muzzle device.

I have to admit, I don't understand why a removable muzzle device cannot be included in the OAL, especially when the receiver extension is removable and available in many different lengths. However, that is what Chief Spencer has determined.

In case anyone is curious, Michael was polite enough to ask about replicating the XO-26 concept before jumping in, and I respect him for that.

Capybara
05-23-2012, 10:08 AM
Franklin Armory, I want to thank you for the XO-26 opinion. I didn't realize what the XO-26 was until Michael and I had embarked on this build, I will definitely consider buying an XO-26 as my next "other".

I think the more people who build in this configuration, the more press and respect you will gain as you were the innovator who made it all possible.

franklinarmory
05-23-2012, 10:55 AM
thanks for the extra info.
Where is the determination on permanently pinning the muzzle device. was it in an additional letter? just curious I like to see all the info. I don't get it either , it seems "other" is not a permanent status according to the way the law is written.
We have it. Since it was not something we could use, we just tucked it away. We thought you should know though. ...Sorry, can't show all our cards at once. ;)
Franklin Armory, I want to thank you for the XO-26 opinion. I didn't realize what the XO-26 was until Michael and I had embarked on this build, I will definitely consider buying an XO-26 as my next "other".

I think the more people who build in this configuration, the more press and respect you will gain as you were the innovator who made it all possible.
How 'bout one in 450 BM? An article on the XO-26 in that caliber made it to the "Book of the AR-15" this year.

EBR Works
05-23-2012, 11:02 AM
How 'bout one in 450 BM? An article on the XO-26 in that caliber made it to the "Book of the AR-15" this year.

I tried building one in .50 Beowulf and it was painful to say the least. I'm working on one in .300 Blackout next. You should too!

franklinarmory
05-23-2012, 11:12 AM
Yeah the 450 BM and 50 B are a handful in this configuration. They are great for hunting pigs and bear! You just have to remember to keep your nose 3" from the charging handle or you get a new tatoo! :)

I'll mention a little secret... We have the barrels on order for the 300. It should kick like a 7.62x39 or maybe the 6.8 SPC ones we've done, which is basically the best compromise of recoil versus external ballistics.

Capybara
05-23-2012, 1:21 PM
Nice!