PDA

View Full Version : CRPA issues Cease and Desist Letter to savecrpa.org


Pages : [1] 2

Kestryll
05-15-2012, 11:23 PM
As I told Gene, the topic is NOT forbidden at all, feel free to discuss.

Several CRPA members started a website called 'savecrpa.org' using both the name and logo of the CRPA.

Today the CRPA Board of Directors received copies of the Cease and Desist letter sent to the principles of the 'savecrpa.org' website regarding their use of the name and logo.

I received this letter as a member of the CRPA BoD and took issue with both the use of the name 'Calguns' in the letter and the part pointing out that some of the individuals involved had connections to CGF as well.

The letter can be found here: http://savecrpa.org/files/crpa_savecrpa_cease_desist_051412.pdf

Frankly I think this was a bad move by CRPA, it does nothing but bring 'savecrpa' in to the spotlight and make CRPA look heavy handed.

Anchors
05-15-2012, 11:27 PM
Lame

ElvenSoul
05-15-2012, 11:27 PM
You can't stop Darwin! Let the CRPA go. These struggles to save a orginization allways end badly. They would do better to spend their energies elsewhere.

rysmithjr
05-15-2012, 11:29 PM
Frankly I think this was a bad move by CRPA, it does nothing but bring 'savecrpa' in to the spotlight and make CRPA look heavy handed.

it's also frivolous, with it's only intent designed to chill discussion and stop attention brought to crpa's failings.

Kestryll, do you feel it's a bad thing to bring 'savecrpa' into the spotlight?

wildhawker
05-15-2012, 11:32 PM
Paul, you make a number of affirmative statements relating to the alleged "use of the [CRPA] name and logo" in your post.

Could you clarify if you agree with the legal reasoning in the CRPA's Cease and Desist letter or if you're simply repeating the allegations contained therein?

-Brandon

taperxz
05-15-2012, 11:36 PM
Kes, as a Board Member of CGF, have you considered resigning from the CRPA board at all? Your thoughts would be nice to hear as the owner of this forum.

hoffmang
05-15-2012, 11:36 PM
I'm curious if anyone reading this thread thinks there is any commercial use occuring on SaveCRPA.org or are confused between SaveCRPA and CRPA?

You see, the trademark act and the ACPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anticybersquatting_Consumer_Protection_Act) don't apply to non commercial speech about trademarks. Also, I'm not so sure that "CPRA" has a mark in "CRPA" since crpa.com (http://crpa.com/) goes to the Connecticut Recreation and Parks Association...

More news on this soon.

-Gene

wildhawker
05-15-2012, 11:39 PM
See:

http://img.pr.com/release/0812/72554/pressrelease_72554_1228949705.jpg

vs.

http://savecrpa.org/files/images/logo.png

-Brandon

Get3CoffinsReady
05-15-2012, 11:45 PM
So when it comes to something petty law suits or the threat of a law suit is filed quickly. How much money does all of this cost btw?

ElvenSoul
05-15-2012, 11:47 PM
You know the really sad thing about this all is that somewhere BRADY is Laughing!

SamsDX
05-15-2012, 11:47 PM
Wow. What a BS allegation, and what a BS C&D letter. Save CRPA clearly distinguishes itself from CRPA, and nowhere on the website does it suggest any kind of affiliation, except that its current members are ex-board members of the organization who want to to move it in the right direction. Also, since when did CRPA get to co-opt the California flag and claim trademark rights therein?

I especially like the sentence "it is beyond debate that the activities of Save CRPA violate the Lanham Act." As if that's supposed to carry any weight. What a laughable letter - I've only followed this whole drama casually, but it just goes to show how desperate the current leadership of CRPA is.

Pathetic.

wildhawker
05-15-2012, 11:49 PM
So when it comes to something petty law suits or the threat of a law suit is filed quickly. How much money does all of this cost btw?

Over $20k to get rid of Gene and Brett; oh, and for them to figure out the Bylaws were not legal (just like Gene said).

See "legal" expenses: http://savecrpa.org/files/2012_budget.pdf

-Brandon

taperxz
05-15-2012, 11:51 PM
You know the really sad thing about this all is that somewhere BRADY is Laughing!

The only thing Brady is laughing about is how ineffective CRPA has been in cooperating with other gun rights groups;)

phamkl
05-15-2012, 11:55 PM
This is the first I've heard of this drama, and I don't really know anything about it. It's just discouraging. It almost feels like, "mommy and daddy, please stop fighting." I hope this gets figured out and resolved quickly. Seems too late for "cleanly."

Kestryll
05-16-2012, 12:04 AM
Kes, as a Board Member of CGF, have you considered resigning from the CRPA board at all? Your thoughts would be nice to hear as the owner of this forum.

Fair question.

Yes, I did consider it on several occasions.
To be honest those times had very little to do with anyone else resigning or not being reappointed, it's been more cases of frustration when meeting resistance to new ideas or efforts. At times I've wondered 'Why in heaven's name am I even trying!?!' Other times I talk to people who seem to really get it and want to move forward.

In the end the reason I have chosen to stay for the time being is that I'm not convinced that things can't be improved and that changes can not be made from the inside.
I really dislike giving up on things and I know for a fact that there are people on the CRPA Board who understand the need to change and grow with the times. Because of this I am compelled to keep making an effort until I am convinced, not by other but by my own experience, that there is no chance to improve things.

I've never turned a moving car by pushing on the fender from the outside but being inside I might be able to nudge the steering wheel a bit.

This is not to say I think it is going to be easy or immediate, it's going to take work and patience. Not infinite patience but at least a little bit.

alfred1222
05-16-2012, 12:12 AM
it just seems stupid to me

jdberger
05-16-2012, 12:12 AM
It's beyond debate that the "SaveCRPA" logo is a parody of CRPA's logo.

wildhawker
05-16-2012, 12:22 AM
Paul,

Let's talk patience and investment.

How many hours have you invested into reforming CRPA?

What documents have you produced?

What drills have you created or led?

What laws and precedent have you analyzed? Where is it published?

What bylaws did you evaluate and map?

Have you ever wondered who and what provided the foundation for you being elected?

-Brandon

SamsDX
05-16-2012, 12:24 AM
It's beyond debate that the "SaveCRPA" logo is a parody of CRPA's logo.

I would argue that the SaveCRPA logo is more of a nominative fair use, rather than parody. Parody typically involves an actual trademark use, but done so in a manner to poke fun or provide humorous social comment. It's very tricky to fall under this exception, and I'm not sure I understand the humor in the addition of "Save" in "SaveCRPA".

rysmithjr
05-16-2012, 12:29 AM
the letter all comes down to alleged Lanham Act violations. Has anyone seen any sign that savecrpa has tried to confuse or deceive consumers into thinking they were the crpa, or that the domain was only bought in an effort to sell it back to the crpa at a profit?

bwiese
05-16-2012, 1:05 AM
The Lanham Act drama is very humorous. The allegations/auras about perceptions (told to the lawyer by CRPA, who I'ms sure really hasn't investigated deeply)
is that CGFers are supposedly stirring the CRPA drama to take CRPA monies.

This is funny - if it weren't sad - because...


CGF has fundraising generally adequate for our work. Our CGF fundraising generally happens in an unstructured fashion and
correlates, time-wise, with cases being filed, defendants being defended, and/or people getting their guns back, charges
dropped and/or payments from gov't entities/agencies to settle bad cases (like our Calexico PD matter yesterday, where
~$40K was paid out, retraining was required, and a Factual Finding of Innocence was granted.)
.
If CGF needs to access more funds and/or use extended efforts in a case of (likely) national signfiicance [or highly substantive in
CA] we can partner with SAF.

Why would we trifle with CRPA for this? Illogical, useless. It also shows that people making such allegations "just don't get it".
.
CGF is a legal defense, etc. entity as a 501c3. It can't do real politics except thru legal processes. That's c4 stuff.

CGF board members are individuals who also are and have been CA gun activists and recognize the need for a formal, useful state
organization that can be highly politically active (as well as who runs sanctioned shooting sports activities).
.
One would expect more reform and progress toward increased activism in past 4+ years than the sole replacement of a troublesome
legislative staffer ~4 years ago. Admittedly, the replacement is the excellent CRPA legislative liaison, Tom Pedersen, who backs our
NRA liaison (Ed Worley) 100% - and who both have their own unique skills & specialties for a broader presence in Sacramento.

One would think that the CRPA could do One Good Reform Thing Per Year.... adoption of the parallel NRA board elections bylaws
would be a start, then thinking about a PAC, then thinking about integrating support of hotter shooting sports (cowboy action? 3gun?)
etc. Even with One Good Thing Per Year, we could be getting somewhere. And not even that much in any particular order...
.
Various CGF board members who were on CRPA board even when separating from CRPA board membership reiterated that....

1. members should remain members to have a voice; even
joining could be useful to again have a voice, as dropping
out completely makes (former) members irrelevant.

2. we have encouraged people to continue to donate to the
separate CRPA Foundation, who is doing valid legal work
and has NRA oversight/coordination. In fact several of
us reiterated that if for whatever reason they did not want
to donate to CRPA, they should instead donate to the
CRPA Foundation.
.
The CRPA Executive Committee and Exec Director do not 'run' CRPA in the sense of telling the Board what to do. The Board
tells the 'upstairs' what to do.

Have you ever heard of a corporate board threatening suits of its directors or trying to stifle its directors speech? No credible
corp. has ever done that [outside of some violative behavior like insider trading, etc.]

CRPA needs to recognize it's not a club and that Board relations etc are parallel to the corporate world - the latter has profit/value
as its goal or desired outcome, while the former is supposed to have gun rights and promulgation of all aspects of shooting as its
goal.


Do please also note that the lawyers in this matter ARE NOT GUN LAWYERS, this is a separate organizational matter involving
external corporate counsel.

jdberger
05-16-2012, 1:20 AM
Nice post, Bill.

...oh, and I'm still waiting for my copy of the letter. Apparently my email server refuses to accept threatening missives (an unusual quirk, I'm sure) so only paper copies will do.

E Pluribus Unum
05-16-2012, 1:30 AM
Kinda weird we're all spending money to fight each other... when we should be fighting anti-gunners.

Gray Peterson
05-16-2012, 2:04 AM
Kinda weird we're all spending money to fight each other... when we should be fighting anti-gunners.

A lack of effective statewide org is a major problem that must be fixed. CGF is not meant to be a long term organization.

There would be no fight here if CRPA leadership hadn't done the stupid thing.

Bolillo
05-16-2012, 7:21 AM
It's laughable that CRPA attempts to claim "their" logo / trade IP is being infringed upon when a large percentage of that logo is essentially the flag of our state (public domain). Equally ridiculous is the reference to "cybersquatting".

CRPA's tactics and understanding of Internet law remind me of a circa-1999 AOL user who gets bent out of shape by somebody making fun of their precious kitty-cat picture.

HowardW56
05-16-2012, 7:29 AM
You know the really sad thing about this all is that somewhere BRADY is Laughing!

:iagree:

But you forgot to include LCAV, CSGV, and I'm sure others...

Once again CRPA is short sighted and alienating membership.

HowardW56
05-16-2012, 7:34 AM
Kinda weird we're all spending money to fight each other... when we should be fighting anti-gunners.


Bingo!

NoJoke
05-16-2012, 7:41 AM
In the end the reason I have chosen to stay for the time being is that I'm not convinced that things can't be improved .

Good on you!
That is NOT an easy decision.

My choice was far more simple, to renew my membership or not. I was encouraged to maintain my membership, by people HERE, so I did. I did so in the hope that the CRPA would align with what California Gun Owners REALLY want. To align with the direction of CalGuns.

I wish success!

United we stand, divided we fall.

RazzB7
05-16-2012, 7:55 AM
I'm not a CRPA member, so I don't have a dog in this fight. I will tell you from an outsider's point of view, it looks like :slap:

I don't know much about what went on with the CRPA BoD, but I know that the people that were "ousted" from the board are people I respect. Gene Hoffman and Bill Weise have done a lot for our fight and we are all in debt to them.

Lone_Gunman
05-16-2012, 9:14 AM
Sounds like its time to just make a clean break from the CPRA. The old men in charge don't want to represent the next generation of gun owners. Yes, there is an established organization there that could be used as a framework in building the next big CA gun owners association, but it's becoming clear that it's not worth the fight.
Discretion is sometimes the better part of valor. If we need a membership based association to represent us then maybe it's time to start The CalGuns Association.

PolishMike
05-16-2012, 9:30 AM
The old guard can only stay around so long...

bwiese
05-16-2012, 9:31 AM
Kinda weird we're all spending money to fight each other... when we should be fighting anti-gunners.


Our costs of litigation are less not only on gun front but in other matters esp in 'interesting' cases.
Lawyers like 'interesting' cases they can win easily.

The real travesty is that CRPA members' dues are being used for this nonsense to have 'protected
species' on the Board.

Reforms in certain operational areas, once made, could offset these costs

oaklander
05-16-2012, 9:38 AM
Here is a more simple way to understand things. It cuts through the CRPA-crap better, and I am TELLING YOU ALL these things as the person who talks to everyone, and tried to stay neutral on things. I can't stay neutral any longer.

ALSO - like I said on Facebook, I mostly spend my time working on Oakland anti-violence stuff. I have lived in East Oakland for 10 years, and I am working with the churches, with OPD, with people who are still in the lifestyle here on the streets, with the NGO's, etc. . . If I had the reputation for blowing smoke, it would not only end my "career" - it could literally end my life. So, I have learned just to be honest.

Please believe me that what I write is the truth.

1) Our coalition (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/) is TOTALLY winning here in CA.

2) CRPA was a problem group for a number of years, due to the lobbyist that they had previously (not now), and some problems within leadership.

3) They have a new lobbyist who is a standup guy now, BTW.

4) BUT - as the right gets restored in California, there is a BIG GAPING HOLE for a true FORWARD THINKING civil rights membership association or group that can help train THOUSANDS of people, across the state. These new, younger shooters, are buying guns and are just now learning how to use them. If we do not train folks on safety and their rights, we face major problems down the road. People need access to this training, especially in this state, since we don't really even "have" a gun culture here, yet.

5) CGF / CGN simply can't do this, we do not have the resources and are not structured the way that a "shooting club" would be structured.

6) SO, individual members of CRPA, some of whom were also connected to other groups, started pushing for change. Some stridently, some quietly. BUT ALL WITHIN THE RULES. WE ALL WANT POSITIVE CHANGE.

7) We want the structure to be better, and we want the mission to be better.

8) This is OUR RIGHT as members, and as board members, etc. . .

9) AN ENTRENCHED FACTION INSIDE OF CRPA that stands to "lose" prestige as a result of any changes, simply took over the democratic process, and booted Gene and Brett out. I resigned in support, then others resigned.

10) Now, that faction is attempting to use the legal process to quell free speech, and this is EXACTLY A SLAPP SUIT. And is exactly "CRPA-crap."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation

A strategic lawsuit against public participation (SLAPP) is a lawsuit that is intended to censor, intimidate, and silence critics by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense until they abandon their criticism or opposition.[1]

The typical SLAPP plaintiff does not normally expect to win the lawsuit. The plaintiff's goals are accomplished if the defendant succumbs to fear, intimidation, mounting legal costs or simple exhaustion and abandons the criticism. A SLAPP may also intimidate others from participating in the debate. A SLAPP is often preceded by a legal threat. The difficulty, of course, is that plaintiffs do not present themselves to the Court admitting that their intent is to censor, intimidate or silence their critics.

There is no judge anywhere who will sustain anything against any of us. This is too obviously an attempt to quell speech, and political speech is HIGHLY protected. The problem is that the clients don't know this. But their lawyers do, and should be ashamed of themselves.

In fact, everyone over there should be ashamed of themselves. We were just trying to improve things, and now they are "shooting at" the very coalition that is making all the progress. Go compare which groups actually win things. . .

Just do it.

Unless CRPA sees the light, this may well spell the end of that group EVER being taken seriously, both in this state, and nationally. Forever, in people's heads, they will associate the word "crap" with the initials CRPA.

They REALLY stepped into "it" - with this one. I got one of those letters, and I don't even have to tell you what I do for a living. They appear to have enough sense to leave me out of this, for now. And it is my hope that people over there realize that there are ways to "pierce the corporate veil." What that means is that anyone behind this could stand to lose their house, and ALL their assets. Speech is a protected civil right, setting that aside, there is some common law, and some case law on this as well. Defamation and libel are examples.

I have no assets, BTW.

None.

That is by design, since it makes me a hard target with nothing to lose. . . Nearly every day in Oakland, I interact with people who are likely armed, and who would shoot me if I said or did the wrong things, or had something they wanted. So I deliberately HAVE NOTHING.

This petty BS, from CRPA leadership, is therefore even MORE disgusting to me. I do not have time for games. In my Oakland work, I deal LITERALLY with life and death, and I am now being asked to speak for groups that are connected to the churches. Last Friday, I spoke for a group that included the mothers of gun violence victims. This petty drama that CRAP is creating, is just that. Petty, selfish, little kid, drama.

And, I can speak for many people when I say we ALL have more important things to worry about.

The coalition has been spending its time WINNING. We do not have time for this sort of "CRPA-CRAP." But given our track record, do folks think we will win? Or that we will lose?

What would a bettin' man, bet?

:D

FatCity67
05-16-2012, 9:44 AM
Internal power struggles are nothing new in organizations.

This public display of pressure tactics on the many sides of this issue is disconcerting. The polarizing affects are clear.

taperxz
05-16-2012, 9:47 AM
This might be "off the wall" but, what if we got LOTS of people to send in requests for refunds on our membership dues? No I don't expect my money back. A simple online form and email for ease of sending. If enough people did this.....:). If this turned class action it would force change.

J.D.Allen
05-16-2012, 10:05 AM
I am not a member of CRPA and have not been privy to any of the issues that have been occurring. However I am also not blind and the people that I constantly see accomplishing things with real results in this state seem to be the very people that have issues with CRPA. That's enough for me. Seems like CRPA is slowly slipping into true insignificance. (Or staying insignificant, if you listen to some people).

NoJoke
05-16-2012, 10:08 AM
Oaklander, there was a point in my life when I could make a blanket statement that I didn't like lawyers much....

Rock on! :cool:

oaklander
05-16-2012, 10:11 AM
Oaklander, there was a point in my life when I could make a blanket statement that I didn't like lawyers much....

Rock on! :cool:

Thank you brother!!!

In my past life, as an actual yuppie, I wrote and spoke extensively on legal ethics, and this is why this whole thing bothers me. . .

"THEY" want to try and mess with MY reputation (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/kevin-lee-thomason/45/139/475)?

"They" won't get far.

J.D.Allen
05-16-2012, 10:15 AM
As much effort, money, and trouble as it would require, perhaps its time for someone to start a NEW club type organization, more along the model of the NRA...

spgripside
05-16-2012, 10:30 AM
CRPA could likely lose its charter, if it does not calm down. . .

My hope that CRPA can be saved is dwindling with each step the current CRPA leadership has chosen to take. I'm frustrated to the point that losing their NRA charter is starting to seem like the best outcome. These guys are clueless, and watching CRPA crumble under their watch may be required to eventually rebuild CRPA into a respectable pro civil rights organization.

oaklander
05-16-2012, 10:33 AM
My hope that CRPA can be saved is dwindling with each step the current CRPA leadership has chosen to take. I'm frustrated to the point that losing their NRA charter is starting to seem like the best outcome. These guys are clueless, and watching CRPA crumble under their watch may be required to eventually rebuild CRPA into a respectable pro civil rights organization.

The folks that need to watch, are watching. . . This has been an issue now for the last 18 months. . .

Sutcliffe
05-16-2012, 10:34 AM
Kinda weird we're all spending money to fight each other... when we should be fighting anti-gunners.

Seems like egos may be involved here.

oaklander
05-16-2012, 10:39 AM
Seems like egos may be involved here.

Partially.

But that is part of the problem. Sometimes egos are based on fact. Sometimes, they are based on fantasy and title. . .

fiddletown
05-16-2012, 10:49 AM
On the off chance that CRPA leadership may be reading this thread, I offer the following simply as my personal view:

[1] I am a life member of CRPA and have contributed financially to it and its foundation in the past.

[2] I am also a benefactor life member of the NRA and an NRA certified instructor for a number of classes, and I regular help teach various classes.

[3] I'm thoroughly disgusted by the recent actions of CRPA.

[4] While in the past I have promoted joining and contributing to CRPA, I can no longer in good conscience continue to do so.

[5] I will continue to encourage membership in, and contributions to, the NRA, NRA-ILA, CGF and SAF.

speedrrracer
05-16-2012, 10:53 AM
The morons making these calls at CRPA are damaging the very name of CRPA by their actions. Much more and the "brand" won't be salvageable.

And to answer Gene's question, no one with two brain cells to rub together could possibly mistake SaveCRPA for CRPA

gunsmith
05-16-2012, 10:54 AM
I gave up on CRPA around 2002, I simply thought the newsletter was months and months behind the internet.

I hope everything gets straightened out, even though I am in NV now, I left my heart in San Francisco.

taperxz
05-16-2012, 11:01 AM
I'm still wondering how to go about getting a refund from CRPA. I need to see if there is something that prohibits this.

taperxz
05-16-2012, 11:08 AM
I would have to research the law on whether a class action could be brought against a membership 501(c)4, by its members, over the alleged misappropriation of member dues and donations.

At this point, I do not know. . . But I imagine that I could find out. . .

All I need is one little push. . .

It would be interesting to find out!! What a message that would send if it could be accomplished!! Changes would then be a comin'!

paul0660
05-16-2012, 11:08 AM
All I need is one little push. . .

How about this..........I really do NOT want you to do that.

Uxi
05-16-2012, 11:10 AM
I do want a new California flag. Only thing missing from the Bear and Red Star is a hammer and sickle. I know they predate the Soviet flags but still...

taperxz
05-16-2012, 11:12 AM
How about this..........I really do NOT want you to do that.

Why not? Don't members have rights to find this information out and act on there ideas?

oaklander
05-16-2012, 11:12 AM
How about this..........I really do NOT want you to do that.

And you already know that I do the opposite of what you want!!!

LOL

Nah, I am just going to sit this one out. I have made my point, and you even agree with most of it. . .

We will just see that they do. . . Things are in motion already.

oaklander
05-16-2012, 11:13 AM
Why not? Don't members have rights to find this information out and act on there ideas?

Taper, he is kind of agreeing with me, in his way. . .

I think. . .

:)

We troll each other, but Paul is not really opposition on these things, at least. . . He and I disagree about something else.

taperxz
05-16-2012, 11:16 AM
Paul is a good calgunner:0

GOEX FFF
05-16-2012, 11:16 AM
I have been a CRPA member for about 15 years. I will remain a member because of the voting power we have as members to help reform this train wreck CRPA have caused. But I will no longer donate any money to them. My good money will go to CGF, NRA, CRPA Foundation and SAF.

oaklander
05-16-2012, 11:18 AM
Paul is a good calgunner:0

Ha!

Well, I DO think that we stick together over the larger issues, at least. Or that is my hope.

paul0660
05-16-2012, 11:19 AM
Fist bump, Oaklander.

Now, resume normal broadcasting.

Kukuforguns
05-16-2012, 11:20 AM
Hmm, based on my quick read of the letter and without doing any research I'd say that the attorney who wrote the letter accurately summarized the law and that the letter does not contain any defamatory material. That being said, the letter does not support the statement that the facts show that Save CRPA is violating the Lanham Act. To the contrary, it appears that Save CRPA is clearly identifying itself as a party criticizing CRPA (which undermines the argument that Save CRPA is trying to create confusion). It is in fact, attempting to distinguish itself from CRPA. Furthermore, there is no argument in the letter that CalGuns or Save CRPA is attempting to create confusion between CalGuns and CRPA. Unfortunately, Save CRPA should respond to the letter identifying the weaknesses in CRPA's position.

berto
05-16-2012, 11:27 AM
So so so very happy my CRPA dues are being spent on lawyers sending threatening letters to 2A civil rights activists instead of on lawyers taking it to the antis. Congrats Tony et al, you're doing wonders for the cause. CRPA needs saving from the current leadership cabal intent on driving the organization off a cliff.

redrex
05-16-2012, 11:35 AM
I have not and will not be renewing my CRPA membership this year. Please email me when the new replacement org has been founded

:)

oaklander
05-16-2012, 11:40 AM
Fist bump, Oaklander.

Now, resume normal broadcasting.

Word.

:)

oaklander
05-16-2012, 11:42 AM
Hmm, based on my quick read of the letter and without doing any research I'd say that the attorney who wrote the letter accurately summarized the law and that the letter does not contain any defamatory material. That being said, the letter does not support the statement that the facts show that Save CRPA is violating the Lanham Act. To the contrary, it appears that Save CRPA is clearly identifying itself as a party criticizing CRPA (which undermines the argument that Save CRPA is trying to create confusion). It is in fact, attempting to distinguish itself from CRPA. Furthermore, there is no argument in the letter that CalGuns or Save CRPA is attempting to create confusion between CalGuns and CRPA. Unfortunately, Save CRPA should respond to the letter identifying the weaknesses in CRPA's position.

No, I got one too. And the point is that another lawyer is now accusing me of doing something illegal. Not good. What needs to happen next is an apology, from CRPA leadership, and the lawyer who wrote the letter. Otherwise, this will not end well. . . for them. . .

You do not just go around and accuse people of doing things that are illegal, and you especially do not accuse civil rights lawyers of that. We are kind of scrappy. . . it is kind of the little personality quirk that drives us to fight against dysfunction.

And the problem is that if you had to pick the top 10 people in the state, who REALLY like to fight dysfunction - well, they are the people who got that letter. NOW, think about how this will play out. . . it is a shot across the bow, and the problem is that we have a legal battleship, and they have a little "PT boat."

Think about who we are, and who we hang out with. You seriously DO NOT want to send out letters that totally hit constitutional issues, to the very people who are aligned with the litigation crew that wins such things, in Supreme Court cases.

AND THE VERY FACT THAT "THEY" THOUGHT THAT THIS WOULD END WELL FOR THEM, IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE LAME-BRAINED THINKING THAT WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO FIX.

Kukuforguns
05-16-2012, 12:33 PM
You seriously DO NOT want to send out letters that totally hit constitutional issues, to the very people who are aligned with the litigation crew that wins such things, in Supreme Court cases.[/B] What constitutional issues? Your freedom of speech? CRPA's letter states that Save CRPA is misusing CRPA's trademark. Send CRPA a letter explaining why Save CRPA's use does not violate the Lanham Act. Cite some case like Mattel, Inc. v. MCA Records, Inc., 296 F.3d 894, 906–07 (9th Cir.2002), or some other case that stands for the proposition that non-commercial speech (such as commentary or criticism) that uses another's trademark does not violate the Lanham Act and is entitled to the full protection of the First Amendment. It's a weak letter. Let CRPA know it's a weak letter, and move on. If you believe that the letter is defamatory, I wish you the best of luck.

dantodd
05-16-2012, 12:35 PM
What constitutional issues? Your freedom of speech? CRPA's letter states that Save CRPA is misusing CRPA's trademark. Send CRPA a letter explaining why Save CRPA's use does not violate the Lanham Act. Cite some case like Mattel, Inc. v. MCA Records, Inc., 296 F.3d 894, 906–07 (9th Cir.2002), or some other case that stands for the proposition that non-commercial speech (such as commentary or criticism) that uses another's trademark does not violate the Lanham Act and is entitled to the full protection of the First Amendment. It's a weak letter. Let CRPA know it's a weak letter, and move on. If you believe that the letter is defamatory, I wish you the best of luck.

um. I think that is what Oak said, just in his own special style.

oaklander
05-16-2012, 12:45 PM
um. I think that is what Oak said, just in his own special style.

Ya, you nailed it.

And with that, I am out of this discussion. The people who need to "know things," know those things, and the people who need to "do things," will do those things.

I also wish to apologize to the group for getting mean or petty. I am not like that in real life, and my entire goal with everything that I have ever done is simply to try and get people to see that they are not generally in opposition.

Quite frankly, I was taken aback to be accused of something illegal, and I have spent that last 25 years of my life trying to be the best person I can be, and NOT do things to hurt others.

Since that is true, I will bow out of this. My words still stand, however. But I have no more need to beat this issue into the ground. Either things get fixed, or they don't and my endless drivel about things does not matter, if things do not get fixed.

Thus, I have said my piece, since my faith says that I must speak out against things that are wrong. And maybe I said things wrong, but the point stands. WE are the good people.

And we must never forget that.

ps, I am having a BBQ at my East Oakland house this weekend. Those of you who have been here before are invited. Email kevin@oaklander.org for details. The topic will be tri-tip, and fellowship. Even those of you who have never met me, are invited. But please be aware that it is not a "gun guy" BBQ, most of the people who will be here have no connection to this group, and will be the local community people who we work with on the anti-violence stuff. If you all want to see what happens when large and small groups, get dysfunctional, we can show you by talking about Oakland governance. Groups have effects. Good, or bad.

glbtrottr
05-16-2012, 3:18 PM
Sounds like CRPA can go screw itself.

It's one thing when an advocacy and lobbying group has their act together.

It's another when they start pushing others around in the same class for their own status and self-importance.

My SO was offered to become a board member and after a sniff or two decided against it. To burn time, effort and money in an organization that is so blissfully idiotic that it would waste member's money to sue other 2A rights activist, particularly those with success behind them on teeny matters such as those CGF supports, is disgusting.

And for Kes to be wasting cycles with those guys instead of properly swinging the banhammer here? Hmmm....:)

hoffmang
05-16-2012, 8:25 PM
Send CRPA a letter explaining why Save CRPA's use does not violate the Lanham Act. Cite some case like Mattel, Inc. v. MCA Records, Inc., 296 F.3d 894, 906–07 (9th Cir.2002), or some other case that stands for the proposition that non-commercial speech (such as commentary or criticism) that uses another's trademark does not violate the Lanham Act and is entitled to the full protection of the First Amendment.

I have a simple response:

An old bull and a young bull were standing on a hill looking down on a valley full of cows. “Hey”, says the young bull. “Let’s run down and take one of those cows…”

“No”, says the old bull. “Let’s walk down and take them all.”

All in due time
:inquis:

-Gene

RKV
05-16-2012, 8:36 PM
If the so-called leadership of CRPA is reading this - let me give you a hint. You've been losing in the legislature so long, you don't know what its like to win. Don't make it more difficult for those of us who want to win for a change to do so. Your egos are in the way of progress. And have been for years.

Munk
05-16-2012, 8:56 PM
I posted similar comments in the first version of this thread I saw.

The idea that they want to go after their own members is sad. If this becomes a suit after the C&D, then these members' money that they paid in dues will have been used against them.

Their attempt to claim the Lanham act applies is laughable. The site in question is not attempting to deceive, confuse, or claim affiliation or approval from the CRPA in any way. They are advocating for change of the CRPA. Since the CRPA is the subject matter of their advocacy, they need to refer to it directly, they can't just say "Some association of pistol and rifle shooters located in california".

The only possible angle might be copyright infringement for the similar logo used... which will also be an uphill battle, since it's a picture of a public image (the flag of CA) with text applied. The font is different, the styling of the picture is different. But the placement of the CRPA portion at the bottom is spaced close enough to add a minor degree of merit to the issue.

However, I'm of the opinion that they should be able to use the logo directly if they need to, as the logo is functionally a "picture" of the organization, as the constituent members and membership are nebulous and dispersed enough that an actual picture of the organization is right out. It lets people recognize at a glance what the subject matter of the SaveCRPA group is at a glance.

goober
05-16-2012, 9:09 PM
Nice post, Bill.

...oh, and I'm still waiting for my copy of the letter. Apparently my email server refuses to accept threatening missives (an unusual quirk, I'm sure) so only paper copies will do.

Agreed, very well said Bill.
And I never got my copy of the C&D letter either, only heard about it second-hand.
But that's probably because CRPA never had it's $..t together enough to use my correct email address as a BoD member, and only sometimes as a regular member (despite repeated attempts on my part to help them get it right). Perhaps they need a few hundred thousand more dollars a year for staff to look after little things like that. :chris:

Patriot Man
05-16-2012, 9:12 PM
Kinda weird we're all spending money to fight each other... when we should be fighting anti-gunners.

As someone who donates to organizations (SAF, CGF, NRA...) but not involved in this at all, the above opinion seems like the most important point. The anti's must be elated at all this silly infighting. We need to be united on what we agree about...

ddestruel
05-16-2012, 9:19 PM
My hope that CRPA can be saved is dwindling with each step the current CRPA leadership has chosen to take. I'm frustrated to the point that losing their NRA charter is starting to seem like the best outcome. These guys are clueless, and watching CRPA crumble under their watch may be required to eventually rebuild CRPA into a respectable pro civil rights organization.



This ^

CRPA has been lacking back bone for years

hoffmang
05-16-2012, 9:21 PM
As someone who donates to organizations (SAF, CGF, NRA...) but not involved in this at all, the above opinion seems like the most important point. The anti's must be elated at all this silly infighting. We need to be united on what we agree about...

I agree but I've been advocating CRPA board accountability. Now, that advocacy means that my membership organization has threatened to sue it's own members. Do you think that helps make my point that accountability is missing and probably important?

-Gene

dantodd
05-16-2012, 9:24 PM
A slight diversion to the old deleted threads. How is a "cease and desist" letter different than a threat to sue? If you don't do what they ask in the letter what is the next action? Ask again, via certified mail?

Wrangler John
05-16-2012, 9:25 PM
I am weary of this topic.

Therefore I have decided to forgo renewal of our CRPA membership next month. I do not have any desire to be a member of the CRPA, or to attempt to change it within the bylaws. CRPA has made itself superfluous and needs to disappear. If the NRA was wise it would look toward revoking CRPA's state affiliation and move on.

I will not be attending the Annual Gala either.

G60
05-16-2012, 9:43 PM
The anti's must be elated at all this silly infighting.

No. They're just as happy with the 'way things are' as those within the CRPA opposing the improvements to their organization.

They want absolutely no part of what could be a "SAF of California."

oaklander
05-16-2012, 9:52 PM
My take is different. Opposition is seeing that there is a split between the "civil rights" people, and the "old boys network" people.

The fact that the civil rights people are actually prevailing, will make them even more impressed with how well our coalition works.

The politics on what CRPA did, actually work against it. And like Gene implied, "they" need to get up into tripple digit IQ levels, if they actually want to WIN anything. They would totally LOSE any litigation they even THOUGHT about filing, and thus - how can they "win" anything?

Do people in the most nasty state (re gun rights), want a group that (1) would even do this, and (2) even thinks it would work?

Dude, I am seriously like autistically good at knowing which way things will go, and I am telling folks that CRPA blew it. The reason I know all this stuff is because I had to learn real quick how things work, both growing up, and living here. If you do not possess simple people skills, like showing respect, and honor and integrity, you do not end up well.

Why do folks think I keep posting all that religious stuff on my Facebook page? It is not some "act." I am actually one of those people who believes that Christian principles of fair play, respect, not working off of greed or fear - ACTUALLY MATTER. And that is my right to say that, in this great country. And that we would have people who apparently do not even work at that level, disgusts me. People DIE in this state because they cannot defend themselves. This crap is literally sick.

I am sorry, I promised people that I would be less adversarial. But I must speak up. What they did was morally wrong. I literally want to pray for them at this point, that is how wrong it was.

taperxz
05-16-2012, 10:10 PM
Oak, I like it better when you post like Gene. No more than two sentences.

oaklander
05-16-2012, 10:21 PM
Oak, I like it better when you post like Gene. No more than two sentences.

Yea, I think everyone like it!

:D

OK, I am really out of this discussion for a while. I am behind at my day job, and I have a full weekend of actually DOING SOMETHING to help our messed up world.

But yes, you are correct, and DANG IT, DID IT AGAIN!

;)

mag360
05-16-2012, 10:36 PM
don't cancel your membership, we need you guys to reform crpa through voting.

TomV
05-16-2012, 11:55 PM
Anybody have any guesstimate of the number (or percentage) of CRPA members that are active on CG's ?

bwiese
05-16-2012, 11:59 PM
I am weary of this topic.

Therefore I have decided to forgo renewal of our CRPA membership next month. I do not have any desire to be a member of the CRPA, or to attempt to change it within the bylaws. CRPA has made itself superfluous and needs to disappear. If the NRA was wise it would look toward revoking CRPA's state affiliation and move on.

I will not be attending the Annual Gala either.


Wrangler,
Please continue your membership.
You cannot control something when you don't have a lever.

blakdawg
05-17-2012, 1:00 AM
This week in review:

CGF announces $35K settlement from CA city that violated the civil rights of an innocent gun owner.

CGF announces new lawsuit filed against the CA DOJ and the cities of Oakland and San Francisco for violating the civil rights of gun owners.

CRPA sends cease and desist letters threatening litigation against dissident members/former board members because CRPA doesn't like the way the CRPA trademarks were used to criticize the organization's lack of integrity and accountability.

.. and CRPA wonders why their membership numbers are in the toilet and they get no respect from CA gun owners.

Would the last board member to leave please turn out the lights?

b.faust
05-17-2012, 1:05 AM
Anybody have any guesstimate of the number (or percentage) of CRPA members that are active on CG's ?

Well I'm one.

My first experience with them btw was getting my credit card number stolen after paying for my membership online.

I wasn't amused.

Since then I've gotten that pathetic excuse for a 'news letter' they send out and haven't seen much more. I doubt I'll re-up.

That being said, I'm far more interested now in VOTING and maybe renewing my membership if the boat can be turned (and my credit card doesn't get hijacked again.)

taperxz
05-17-2012, 7:28 AM
Wrangler,
Please continue your membership.
You cannot control something when you don't have a lever.

Why control it? More fun to watch it sink.

Besides I got a letter asking for my renewal and said dues are going up 6/1 so pay now!!! I know you guys want me to but I'm NOT supporting them.

ke6guj
05-17-2012, 7:31 AM
Well I'm one.

My first experience with them btw was getting my credit card number stolen after paying for my membership online.

I wasn't amused.

same thing happened to me. funny how the scammers using my credit card ordered stuff with the custom email address that I created just for CRPA, but no, it couldn't have been CRPA's fault :rolleyes:

oaklander
05-17-2012, 7:35 AM
same thing happened to me. funny how the scammers using my credit card ordered stuff with the custom email address that I created just for CRPA, but no, it couldn't have been CRPA's fault :rolleyes:

Interesting.

And this sort of stuff is why we have been asking for more transparency. My understanding is that some groups make a LOT of money by selling lists. I can't say for sure whether CRPA does this or not, since even when I was a Board Member, they simply would not divulge certain things to me.

If this matter ends up in litigation, it will blow open any secrets they THINK they had. Back when I was a yuppie, I used to be "the guy" who would get sent to depose people. I would sit with someone for up to 8 hours, and ask them hundreds of questions, under threat of perjury, if they lied to me. The key is to "box people in" to admitting truth. You have to be courteous, and follow all ethics rules, but your job is very much "The Scrutinizer."

Kind of liked that job, BTW. . .

Kind of like making people tell me the truth. . .

And I sense a lot of truth that needs to be revealed. . .

"State your name for the record please," is how it starts. Then it goes on to admonishments like this one:

"You are required to give us your best estimates, but we do not want you to speculate. Do you understand the difference?"

"Well, if I ask you to tell me the size of your coffee table at home, assuming you have one, you can likely make a pretty good estimate, can't you? That is a best estimate."

"You have never been to my house, correct? Now, if I ask you to tell me the size of my coffee table at my house, that would be a speculation. Are we clear on the difference?"

"Good."

------------------

Let me break it down farther.

The proper questions that can be asked in discovery are (1) things that are relevant, and (2) things that would LEAD to relevant information. For the sake of argument, if I allege that CRPA is corrupt, and exists only as a shell to make money for certain people, and the other side sues me for defamation or false light, or whatever - THEN in the discovery process, I get to dig into everything about them that might show my defense (i.e., truth).

Again, the above is purely hypothetical. Since I have not publicly made those allegations, yet. But trust me brother, we know some things. And if CRPA wants to open a can of whoopass, we have a container ship of whoopass.

------------------

And let me add one more thing. The ENTIRE reason I got involved in this fight for our civil rights was that I simply DO NOT like seeing people game the legal process for selfish or improper reasons. That is how we got all these stupid laws that don't actually DO ANYTHING, except hurt our economy, make it hard for people to defend themselves, and put the wrong people in jail.

A few years ago, I went through a gnarly divorce, and saw it happen again. Then I got involved in the Oakland stuff, and SAW IT YET AGAIN. People, who act under color of law, to line their own pockets, or to push for some twisted agenda - ARE NOT GOOD PEOPLE.

They are very bad people, is the easiest way to say it. That is why I have been PLEADING with people to approach things in a moral light. We win because we are the good guys and gals. People support people who are correct and right. People want to be part of the good fight. And this whole thing PROVES who the good people are. True good people do not eat their own like this.

Even our coalition, as dicky as we are to each other, simply WOULD NOT SINK THIS LOW. Heck, even me and Paul0660 are on the same page now, at least with this issue. What we are seeing with CRPA is absolutely a failing in morals, and that is why we are also looking at the ethics of what they are attempting to do. There are rules and laws that require that the legal process be kept clean of this sort of thing. And like I said, we actually ARE the experts on this subject matter.

Back in the day, I used to be in the same groups with this guy: http://www.legalethics.com/, who I have met. In fact, we talked quite a bit. I am not blowing smoke on this stuff. I just seriously have this thing about morals and ethics. Always have. And I see little here, from CRPA.

Even now, I still get people asking me about complicated ethics rules. I can usually answer what is right by just using common sense, and then just making sure it is based in fact. How do you all think I can work with so many different groups? I am just seriously good at knowing how to not hurt people, by breaking trust, or breaking confidences.

Sorry to ramble.

There are few things that really upset me now. The Oakland stuff is very hard core. I tell people that it is just like the movie Chinatown, except real. And like I have been saying, when you mess up in Oakland politics, your C&D letter is not written by a lead pencil. It is simply lead. Hot lead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauncey_Bailey).

So I have learned exactly what is right, and what is wrong, and what is right to do, and what is wrong to do.

And that is why I am basically preaching here. What CRPA did was not just legally wrong, and without basis, it was morally and ethically wrong, and will hurt the entire civil rights movement.

BUT, we can never sink to that level, and I am trying real hard to not do that.

ke6guj
05-17-2012, 7:40 AM
Interesting.

And this sort of stuff is why we have been asking for more transparency. My understanding is that some groups make a LOT of money by selling lists. I can't say for sure whether CRPA does this or not, since even when I was a Board Member, they simply would not divulge certain things to me.

If this matter ends up in litigation, it will blow open any secrets they THINK they had. Back when I was a yuppie, I used to be "the guy" that would get sent to depose people. I would sit with someone for up to 8 hours, and ask them hundreds of questions, under threat of perjury, if they lied to me.

Kind of liked that job, BTW. . .

Kind of like making people tell me the truth.http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=2492519#post2492519

oaklander
05-17-2012, 8:30 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=2492519#post2492519

Please screenshot that thread. There are tools that will turn an entire thread into a single PDF. Then just keep it. Might be needed. Seriously, they stepped in a big mess with this latest stunt.

I think "Fireshot" is a good plugin, there may be others.

Please also look at the public profiles of anyone who responds "officially," and screenshot those as well.

Also, the fact that it "did not" happen to others does not disprove the fact that it happened to you (and others). That is a common logical error that non-lawyers make.

Wherryj
05-17-2012, 9:32 AM
I'm curious if anyone reading this thread thinks there is any commercial use occuring on SaveCRPA.org or are confused between SaveCRPA and CRPA?

You see, the trademark act and the ACPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anticybersquatting_Consumer_Protection_Act) don't apply to non commercial speech about trademarks. Also, I'm not so sure that "CPRA" has a mark in "CRPA" since crpa.com (http://crpa.com/) goes to the Connecticut Recreation and Parks Association...

More news on this soon.

-Gene

I'm not a lawyer, but this is how I was looking at the issue. How is it hurting a trademark when the use is non-commercial? If anything, that adds free publicity.

Making untrue statements while using that trademark should at most open to libel suits rather than trademark violation. In this case, it seems that everything being said on savecrpa is true and only trying to salvage the association. To me, that makes this all about silencing dissent.

However, as I said, I see it as "the common man" rather than someone trained in law.


oooops, I typed "CRPA" together. Does that mean I should expect a cease and desist letter as well?

Wherryj
05-17-2012, 10:06 AM
The Lanham Act drama is very humorous. The allegations/auras about perceptions (told to the lawyer by CRPA, who I'ms sure really hasn't investigated deeply)
is that CGFers are supposedly stirring the CRPA drama to take CRPA monies.

This is funny - if it weren't sad - because...


CGF has fundraising generally adequate for our work. Our CGF fundraising generally happens in an unstructured fashion and
correlates, time-wise, with cases being filed, defendants being defended, and/or people getting their guns back, charges
dropped and/or payments from gov't entities/agencies to settle bad cases (like our Calexico PD matter yesterday, where
~$40K was paid out, retraining was required, and a Factual Finding of Innocence was granted.)
.
If CGF needs to access more funds and/or use extended efforts in a case of (likely) national signfiicance [or highly substantive in
CA] we can partner with SAF.

Why would we trifle with CRPA for this? Illogical, useless. It also shows that people making such allegations "just don't get it".
.
CGF is a legal defense, etc. entity as a 501c3. It can't do real politics except thru legal processes. That's c4 stuff.

CGF board members are individuals who also are and have been CA gun activists and recognize the need for a formal, useful state
organization that can be highly politically active (as well as who runs sanctioned shooting sports activities).
.
One would expect more reform and progress toward increased activism in past 4+ years than the sole replacement of a troublesome
legislative staffer ~4 years ago. Admittedly, the replacement is the excellent CRPA legislative liaison, Tom Pedersen, who backs our
NRA liaison (Ed Worley) 100% - and who both have their own unique skills & specialties for a broader presence in Sacramento.

One would think that the CRPA could do One Good Reform Thing Per Year.... adoption of the parallel NRA board elections bylaws
would be a start, then thinking about a PAC, then thinking about integrating support of hotter shooting sports (cowboy action? 3gun?)
etc. Even with One Good Thing Per Year, we could be getting somewhere. And not even that much in any particular order...
.
Various CGF board members who were on CRPA board even when separating from CRPA board membership reiterated that....

1. members should remain members to have a voice; even
joining could be useful to again have a voice, as dropping
out completely makes (former) members irrelevant.

2. we have encouraged people to continue to donate to the
separate CRPA Foundation, who is doing valid legal work
and has NRA oversight/coordination. In fact several of
us reiterated that if for whatever reason they did not want
to donate to CRPA, they should instead donate to the
CRPA Foundation.
.
The CRPA Executive Committee and Exec Director do not 'run' CRPA in the sense of telling the Board what to do. The Board
tells the 'upstairs' what to do.

Have you ever heard of a corporate board threatening suits of its directors or trying to stifle its directors speech? No credible
corp. has ever done that [outside of some violative behavior like insider trading, etc.]

CRPA needs to recognize it's not a club and that Board relations etc are parallel to the corporate world - the latter has profit/value
as its goal or desired outcome, while the former is supposed to have gun rights and promulgation of all aspects of shooting as its
goal.


Do please also note that the lawyers in this matter ARE NOT GUN LAWYERS, this is a separate organizational matter involving
external corporate counsel.


I came to Calguns after finding your AR write up. I've been pleasantly surprised by the quality of your writings over the years.

This seems to sum up the issue rather well, at least to an outsider. Somehow someone at CRPA seems to have misinterpreted what is going on. I have NEVER seen Gene or any other CRPA board member suggest anything except donating to CRPA and NRA.

Anytime someone has posted "who should I donate to", the answer is never "just us".

Hilldweller
05-17-2012, 10:13 AM
Just here in the peanut gallery watching from the sidelines, but:

Nah, I am just going to sit this one out.

And with that, I am out of this discussion.

OK, I am really out of this discussion for a while.
;)

Please no, I enjoy reading your posts ! There's a bit of the badger in you. I like that !


On another note:
don't cancel your membership, we need you guys to reform crpa through voting.
As someone who rewrote the bylaws for an organization I was associated with (and a Board Member of), I see very little in the CRPA Bylaws related to membership voting. (what get's voted on, percentage to pass, etc) There are no references to members being able to bring things up for a general membership vote - like ousting a BoD that the majority (? quorum ? 2/3's ??) disagree with. That aside, membership votes do nothing if you want to remove someone appointed by the BoD.
Oh, and when are the general membership meetings so subjects can be discussed in an open forum? None? That's a bit strange. Oh, but I did see something about a member could ask for a special membership meeting if they got 5% of the general membership to sign some sort of petition.

I'm sorry, but from an outsider's point of view it appears that the members have very little voice in CRPA.

edwardm
05-17-2012, 10:23 AM
Interesting.

If this matter ends up in litigation, it will blow open any secrets they THINK they had. Back when I was a yuppie, I used to be "the guy" who would get sent to depose people. I would sit with someone for up to 8 hours, and ask them hundreds of questions, under threat of perjury, if they lied to me. The key is to "box people in" to admitting truth. You have to be courteous, and follow all ethics rules, but your job is very much "The Scrutinizer."



CRPA skipped over (unintentionally, I think) a simpler, faster and cheaper way to deal with this issue. Mind you, they'd still lose, but they'd lose quicker and put the matter behind them.

Actually, I think their counsel skipped over it - whether out of negligence or odd strategy, I don't know. If they skipped over it for reasons I think they did, they knew, before putting the first word on the screen, that they had no case.

Discovery will never happen because it will never get that far. The term "vexatious litigant" is coming to mind now, too.

oaklander
05-17-2012, 11:07 AM
CRPA skipped over (unintentionally, I think) a simpler, faster and cheaper way to deal with this issue. Mind you, they'd still lose, but they'd lose quicker and put the matter behind them.

Actually, I think their counsel skipped over it - whether out of negligence or odd strategy, I don't know. If they skipped over it for reasons I think they did, they knew, before putting the first word on the screen, that they had no case.

Discovery will never happen because it will never get that far. The term "vexatious litigant" is coming to mind now, too.

Brother, this is exactly why the Bar even exists. They SERIOUSLY screwed this one up. At a level that is obvious to anyone with the same morals that we are SUPPOSED to learn in kindergarten.

I have seen firms choose to not take cases worth millions, simply because it was ethically wrong, and many of us like to be able to live with ourselves.

And I have also seen lawyers do things that call the entire reputation of our community into question, for retainers less than many of us spend tithing to our churches, and donating to charities. There is a HUGE moral dimension here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pennys dad
05-17-2012, 11:16 AM
You can't stop Darwin! Let the CRPA go. These struggles to save a orginization allways end badly. They would do better to spend their energies elsewhere.

interesting thought

dantodd
05-17-2012, 11:22 AM
There are no references to members being able to bring things up for a general membership vote - like ousting a BoD that the majority (? quorum ? 2/3's ??) disagree with. That aside, membership votes do nothing if you want to remove someone appointed by the BoD.
Oh, and when are the general membership meetings so subjects can be discussed in an open forum? None? That's a bit strange. Oh, but I did see something about a member could ask for a special membership meeting if they got 5% of the general membership to sign some sort of petition.

I'm sorry, but from an outsider's point of view it appears that the members have very little voice in CRPA.

These are exactly the issues that Gene, Brett, Bill, Wes, Brandon, et. al. were trying to address. It is particularly diificult to petition for change when the organization doesn't even know its own valid membership numbers. How does one get 5% of the membership to sign a petition when they don't know how many signatures are required to meet the 5%? I highly doubt the CRPA has even done an audit to know how many of their life members are still alive.

The CRPA needs to be accountable to its members and needs to be transparent.

The CRPA is in much the same situation as the pre-Wayne La Pierre NRA. Read "Gunfight" by Adam Winkler for a good run down of what happened to bring WLP to power at the NRA.

pennys dad
05-17-2012, 11:29 AM
Sounds like its time to just make a clean break from the CPRA. The old men in charge don't want to represent the next generation of gun owners. Yes, there is an established organization there that could be used as a framework in building the next big CA gun owners association, but it's becoming clear that it's not worth the fight.
Discretion is sometimes the better part of valor. If we need a membership based association to represent us then maybe it's time to start The CalGuns Association.

It is difficult to say it is not worth it. I choose to stay and work within. There are Board members that understand the need to grow into the next iteration of the CRPA. This event was a example of the old way of thinking, if I stick to my original thoughts, then it is also an opportunity for change and growth. perseverance in spite of difficulties.

Connor P Price
05-17-2012, 11:34 AM
I've been to busy with an IP law final paper to keep up with things around here lately. Damn you all for making my return to Calguns a primer on IP law!

I haven't read the entire thread, I'll have to come back and do so, but some points on the cease and desist letter:

Government flags and seals are always within the public domain so any trademark protection that may exist for the CRPA logo is incredibly thin. Furthermore, trademark infringement requires use in commerce and I certainly don't see Save CRPA using the mark in commerce.

Trademark law exists to prevent consumers from being confused as to the origin of information, a product or service. Even if Save CRPA was using the mark in commerce (which of course they aren't) it would be incredibly unlikely that the target consumer for their information would be confused as to the origin because it's quite clear that Save CRPA is airing grievances about the organization.

The allegation of cyber-squatting is even more laughable. Courts have held that "gripe sites" are perfectly acceptable. Check out www.wellsfargosucks.com for an example. I assure you, their legal team would have that site taken down in a nano-second if it were infringement or cyber-squatting of any sort. Save CRPA is more similar to a gripe site than anything.

The funniest part of it all is that CRPA see's it necessary to start a legal battle with people who are clearly far better versed in the law.

FatCity67
05-17-2012, 12:01 PM
CRPA some light reading:

Who moved my cheese (http://www.magnacad.com/printables/whomovedmycheese.pdf)

Californio
05-17-2012, 12:09 PM
That is what I find so amusing also.


The funniest part of it all is that CRPA see's it necessary to start a legal battle with people who are clearly far better versed in the law.

Wherryj
05-17-2012, 12:13 PM
Ya, you nailed it.

And with that, I am out of this discussion. The people who need to "know things," know those things, and the people who need to "do things," will do those things.

I also wish to apologize to the group for getting mean or petty. I am not like that in real life, and my entire goal with everything that I have ever done is simply to try and get people to see that they are not generally in opposition.

Quite frankly, I was taken aback to be accused of something illegal, and I have spent that last 25 years of my life trying to be the best person I can be, and NOT do things to hurt others.

Since that is true, I will bow out of this. My words still stand, however. But I have no more need to beat this issue into the ground. Either things get fixed, or they don't and my endless drivel about things does not matter, if things do not get fixed.

Thus, I have said my piece, since my faith says that I must speak out against things that are wrong. And maybe I said things wrong, but the point stands. WE are the good people.

And we must never forget that.

ps, I am having a BBQ at my East Oakland house this weekend. Those of you who have been here before are invited. Email kevin@oaklander.org for details. The topic will be tri-tip, and fellowship. Even those of you who have never met me, are invited. But please be aware that it is not a "gun guy" BBQ, most of the people who will be here have no connection to this group, and will be the local community people who we work with on the anti-violence stuff. If you all want to see what happens when large and small groups, get dysfunctional, we can show you by talking about Oakland governance. Groups have effects. Good, or bad.

As a neutral party to this affair, I can attest that I saw no meanness or pettiness in your statements. Thank you for the good work that you've been doing for the people of Oakland, the people of CA, and especially the help with our civil rights on this forum.

newbee1111
05-17-2012, 12:16 PM
Am I understanding this correctly that the CRPA thought it was a great idea to make some legal threats against a pretty scary bunch of lawyers? Maybe this is some weird kind of cry for help.

bwiese
05-17-2012, 12:19 PM
Am I understanding this correctly that the CRPA thought it was a great idea to make some legal threats against a pretty scary bunch of lawyers? Maybe this is some weird kind of cry for help.

1. We CGFers are not lawyers, but we work with a lot of them. CGF
exists in large part for direction & funding of cases.

2. This is not a gun lawyer matter, and is an organizational one, along
with misinterpretation of fair-use commentary issues and misunderstanding
of cybersquatting.

Wherryj
05-17-2012, 12:20 PM
I've been to busy with an IP law final paper to keep up with things around here lately. Damn you all for making my return to Calguns a primer on IP law!

I haven't read the entire thread, I'll have to come back and do so, but some points on the cease and desist letter:

Government flags and seals are always within the public domain so any trademark protection that may exist for the CRPA logo is incredibly thin. Furthermore, trademark infringement requires use in commerce and I certainly don't see Save CRPA using the mark in commerce.

Trademark law exists to prevent consumers from being confused as to the origin of information, a product or service. Even if Save CRPA was using the mark in commerce (which of course they aren't) it would be incredibly unlikely that the target consumer for their information would be confused as to the origin because it's quite clear that Save CRPA is airing grievances about the organization.

The allegation of cyber-squatting is even more laughable. Courts have held that "gripe sites" are perfectly acceptable. Check out www.wellsfargosucks.com for an example. I assure you, their legal team would have that site taken down in a nano-second if it were infringement or cyber-squatting of any sort. Save CRPA is more similar to a gripe site than anything.

The funniest part of it all is that CRPA see's it necessary to start a legal battle with people who are clearly far better versed in the law.

They must be "learning" from the Bradys and about a half dozen CA politicians.

Overbear
05-17-2012, 12:27 PM
What or who is the CRPA and why should I give one rats *** about them, their leadership, or what they are doing?

oaklander
05-17-2012, 12:31 PM
1. We CGFers are not lawyers, but we work with a lot of them. CGF
exists in large part for direction & funding of cases.

2. This is not a gun lawyer matter, and is an organizational one, along
with misinterpretation of fair-use commentary issues and misunderstanding
of cybersquatting.

Yup.

The three things I studied hard in law school were (1) IP law, (2) Property law, including IP law, and (3) the use of the courts to craft remedies, usually on Civil Rights issues, such as speech and race issues.

There's that, and the fact that I have been engaged in things related to the above since the mid-1980's.

What SANE person wants to pick a legal "fight" with me? Or a ANY OF US? We all LIVE to fix things that are wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kukuforguns
05-17-2012, 1:08 PM
What SANE person wants to pick a legal "fight" with me? Or a ANY OF US?

People who are scared.

Various former directors and Save CRPA have made it clear that CRPA needs to be reformed and declared an intent to do so. If CRPA is reformed, it necessarily means that people who currently control CRPA's agenda will lose control. This letter is evidence that: (1) the people controlling CRPA do not want to lose control (alternatively, they do not want CRPA to be reformed); and (2) they believe the reform movement has the potential to achieve reform.

If someone is trying to take away your candy, you fight back with whatever weapons you have to hand. CRPA's controlling personalities understand that someone is trying to take their candy. This letter demonstrates that the CRPA's best weapon is a wet noodle.

oaklander
05-17-2012, 2:05 PM
As a neutral party to this affair, I can attest that I saw no meanness or pettiness in your statements. Thank you for the good work that you've been doing for the people of Oakland, the people of CA, and especially the help with our civil rights on this forum.

The most simple way to explain things is just that I am very upset. I worked my butt off for them in so many ways, and stuck my neck out and DEFENDED them when others were making the allegations that we are now all seeing are true. And that they would turn around and make legal threats against ME, is just sick.

My reputation is that I am the nice guy most of the time. I was trying to help everyone just get along. I have to keep repeating this. What they did with this letter is just morally wrong. These are not good people. I do not know how they can even sleep at night.

I go to church so I can NOT be like these kinds of people, and to find out that we have this level of what I call literal institutional evil, within our own ranks, just makes me sick.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NoJoke
05-17-2012, 2:31 PM
Just wondering out loud again....

So, why does a person/group hang on to a position or stance when they are clearly being "outed" as unpopular or even wrong?

That's right, follow the money in most cases.

Is there a money trail to be followed here?

What is the motivation to not evolve?

Oldbud
05-17-2012, 3:57 PM
Just wondering out loud again....

So, why does a person/group hang on to a position or stance when they are clearly being "outed" as unpopular or even wrong?
...

Power, supremacy are some.

History can show many examples of this, many empires & regimes have toppled eventually.

kcbrown
05-17-2012, 4:32 PM
People who are scared.

Various former directors and Save CRPA have made it clear that CRPA needs to be reformed and declared an intent to do so. If CRPA is reformed, it necessarily means that people who currently control CRPA's agenda will lose control. This letter is evidence that: (1) the people controlling CRPA do not want to lose control (alternatively, they do not want CRPA to be reformed); and (2) they believe the reform movement has the potential to achieve reform.

If someone is trying to take away your candy, you fight back with whatever weapons you have to hand. CRPA's controlling personalities understand that someone is trying to take their candy. This letter demonstrates that the CRPA's best weapon is a wet noodle.

Resistance to reform is, often, not a bad thing. Reform is often painful and oftentimes doesn't achieve the intended effects (or, at least, the stated intended effects).

There can be many reasons for such resistance. From what little I've seen, most of the time it's because the "old guard" either believes that the organization is achieving its goals sufficiently well or that the proposed reforms will not actually improve things (or, alternatively, that the costs of the reform will outweigh the benefits).

But sometimes, it's because the "old guard"'s ideas of the goal of the organization differ from that of the reformers. When that is the case, there can be no agreement between the two sides.

That appears to be the case here. But one has to ask: if the goal of the "old guard" here is not to promote and protect the right to keep and bear arms, especially in light of the CRPA stated mission ("the CRPA is the state organization dedicated to protecting firearm freedoms and promoting shooting sports solely in the State of California", as stated on their website), then what could it possibly be?

Given the apparent disconnect between the stated mission and the actual actions of the "old guard", it should be clear that the actual primary goal of those in power at CRPA is not promotion and preservation of the right to keep and bear arms. And if it's not that, then logic suggests that it is likely to be something much more selfish, for a goal that is noble is one that would be widely advertised.

hoffmang
05-17-2012, 4:46 PM
The funniest part of it all is that CRPA see's it necessary to start a legal battle with people who are clearly far better versed in the law.

Just quoting again for posterity.

-Gene

edwardm
05-17-2012, 8:19 PM
The funniest part of it all is that CRPA see's it necessary to start a legal battle with people who are clearly far better versed in the law.

The saddest part is who they picked to be the bully-for-hire.

I keep waiting for the "HAH! You're on Candid Camera!"-crew to jump out from behind a bush.

Yankee Clipper
05-17-2012, 8:21 PM
As I told Gene, the topic is NOT forbidden at all, feel free to discuss.

Several CRPA members started a website called 'savecrpa.org' using both the name and logo of the CRPA.

Today the CRPA Board of Directors received copies of the Cease and Desist letter sent to the principles of the 'savecrpa.org' website regarding their use of the name and logo.

I received this letter as a member of the CRPA BoD and took issue with both the use of the name 'Calguns' in the letter and the part pointing out that some of the individuals involved had connections to CGF as well.

The letter can be found here: http://savecrpa.org/files/crpa_savecrpa_cease_desist_051412.pdf

Frankly I think this was a bad move by CRPA, it does nothing but bring 'savecrpa' in to the spotlight and make CRPA look heavy handed.

Does this define what is known as 'internecine' fighting? I think it is and worry the cost will be the end of one very fine old organization and the dominance of a newer, more virile, one. I would rather they (CRPA) use their limited financial and political assets to fight the common cause. But I guess that, I'm saying with remorse, is not meant to be.
Paul, hang in there on the BoD at CRPA! You won’t win many battles at first but if you stay you will prove me wrong (about that they're killing the org.), they will start to listen to you and you’ll see Cal Guns and CRPA going in lock step to a common goal (my hope).

paul0660
05-17-2012, 8:27 PM
All in due time

But before the young bull forgets what a morning woody is, please.

Connor P Price
05-17-2012, 8:32 PM
Just quoting again for posterity.

-Gene

What could you possibly know about IP law?

Heh!

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk 2

JSolie
05-17-2012, 8:39 PM
And they spent money to do this??? With membership dues? :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

That's not exactly what I was hoping they'd do with my membership dues I paid to them...

oaklander
05-17-2012, 8:57 PM
And they spent money to do this??? With membership dues? :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

That's not exactly what I was hoping they'd do with my membership dues I paid to them...

Ya, I am literally paying them to send me threatening letters. Heck, I can send myself threatening letters, for free!!!!

Dear Kevin,

You suck!!! Your are wrong!!! Stop it!!!

See, that was easy. And that is about the level of scholarship that we are seeing.

:D

monk
05-17-2012, 9:12 PM
So when do people start wearing colors and dropping crew signs? Maybe one group's "crip" walk will look like an old WWII vet hunched over on his cane.

greasemonkey
05-17-2012, 9:15 PM
Not really internecine, as the truth continues to emerge, the existing CRPA is being exposed for what it is. What remains to be seen in the future is whether the existing CRPA BoD decides to do what is right, open and truthful for the health of the organization and to the benefit of its membership or whether they'll continue to circle the wagons and take rash, heavy-handed actions like this ridiculous pre-lit attempt. That will determine whether or not the CRPA survives the self-conceived pitfall they're currently sitting in.

As a member, I would absolutely love to see the CRPA's $1-MILLION dollar annual budget supporting more than secretaries, air rifle matches and travel expenses to extravagant galas (reminiscent of how our State Assembly operates, ironically enough) or legal challenges to its own membership having a say in how the organization operates. I would love to see the membership have a say in how our .org is run.

You do have one thing right, however. It's been my personal experience that the CRPA and CGN already do operate in lock-step. For quite some time, Tony was allowed right in the middle of CGN's own C3 Leadership structure and decision making processes...when I started asking questions, I was kicked out of all of the C3 Leadership Coordination groups because my concerns were out of lock-step with CRPA.


Does this define what is known as 'internecine' fighting? I think it is and worry the cost will be the end of one very fine old organization and the dominance of a newer, more virile, one. I would rather they (CRPA) use their limited financial and political assets to fight the common cause. But I guess that, I'm saying with remorse, is not meant to be.
Paul, hang in there on the BoD at CRPA! You won’t win many battles at first but if you stay you will prove me wrong (about that they're killing the org.), they will start to listen to you and you’ll see Cal Guns and CRPA going in lock step to a common goal (my hope).

mosinnagantm9130
05-17-2012, 9:18 PM
CRPA had a membership drive going at my local Sportsman's warehouse a few weeks ago. They asked me to join, I was all ":rofl2:"

hoffmang
05-17-2012, 9:20 PM
What could you possibly know about IP law?

Heh!


I'm not on a first name, call their cellphone while they're on vacation basis with the lawyers who wrote the books on IP. Nope. Not at all.

-Gene

NoJoke
05-17-2012, 9:20 PM
As a member, I would absolutely love to see the CRPA's $1-MILLION dollar annual budget supporting more than secretaries, air rifle matches and travel expenses to extravagant galas .

And there you go. Follow the money.

chiselchst
05-17-2012, 9:38 PM
...But sometimes, it's because the "old guard"'s ideas of the goal of the organization differ from that of the reformers. When that is the case, there can be no agreement between the two sides.

That appears to be the case here. But one has to ask: if the goal of the "old guard" here is not to promote and protect the right to keep and bear arms, especially in light of the CRPA stated mission ("the CRPA is the state organization dedicated to protecting firearm freedoms and promoting shooting sports solely in the State of California", as stated on their website), then what could it possibly be ?

The $64K question?

HHhhmmm....

wash
05-17-2012, 10:19 PM
Oak, thanks for giving me some new sig material.

I will update it shortly.

oaklander
05-17-2012, 11:01 PM
Oak, thanks for giving me some new sig material.

I will update it shortly.

OMG! That is what I tell myself all the time!

Just kidding!!!

No - the reason I am generally happy is that we ARE winning. We are simply better, in so many ways. It is kind of like we are spreading the truth that some folks around these parts (and I mean ALL of California) simply do not like civil rights. And our country will FAIL without the rights.

It is that serious. We are the most important freedom. Notice I did not say "we fight for" - I SAID, WE ARE.

WE ARE.

WE ARE THE FREEDOM, and that is why we act like it. We are not battered gun owners anymore. Or at least, the key people are not like that. And more people are realizing that being a gun owner is a POSITIVE thing. And we ARE CHANGING THE LAW, and reversing the anti-gun culture that has hurt our country in MANY WAYS.

Think about it, you can *feel* the hate in our opposition's hearts. That is why they are anonymous, and why you never see them at functions. They work in the background, subtly messing things up for us in so many little ways.

A single phone call can start, or stop a project. And some of you saw what happened when someone dropped a dime on a legal function. Our opposition are simply BAD PEOPLE, and that is why they work in the shadows. You are seeing a glimpse of that now. You are literally seeing fear and greed. And not from us, most of us work for free, or nearly free. And why would we harbor fear? We are decimating them, in the medai, in the courts, in the stores, and in the law.

I sound like a big moral crybaby now because I have been to funerals. People I knew. All related to how this gun issue has been used to screw a bunch of people. That evil is literally killing us. And not just here, think about all of the people who would still be alive if they could simpky carry a gun, like folks in what NINETY PERCENT OF ALL OTHER STATES?

Our opposition are very bad people. Their policies kill people. People I know, and I must take a stand. We all must stand against this sort of malfunction.

bigcalidave
05-17-2012, 11:22 PM
You do have one thing right, however. It's been my personal experience that the CRPA and CGN already do operate in lock-step. For quite some time, Tony was allowed right in the middle of CGN's own C3 Leadership structure and decision making processes...when I started asking questions, I was kicked out of all of the C3 Leadership Coordination groups because my concerns were out of lock-step with CRPA.

More lies, all you seem to ever do is complain and try to stir up more controversy. I guess someone should change your status and remove all that C3 stuff.

greasemonkey
05-17-2012, 11:49 PM
Care to elaborate with some substance? As of yet, your reply here is the first I've heard from any of the C3 group (including Paul) since I was "unable to access" any of the coordination groups. So maybe you're right, maybe I wasn't kicked out, after Paul "tied up some loose ends" I just found myself estranged from the entire C3 Leadership that I helped build from ground zero.

And before you go calling me a liar, let's recall that the Google Group discussions were emailed to peoples personal email accounts.

I got the boot at the point where I passed a question on to the rest of you guys that someone had for me that I was unable to answer. If conveying what the people in my community are asking me (who were closely affiliated with LEO that we/CGF are trying to work with re:LTC Initiative, where we need to retain some legal credibility) is "just stirring up controversy" then maybe C3 is no longer a vehicle with which to advance peoples' rights and provide education to keep law abiding gun owners out of prison.

By the way, officially kicking me out of C3 is right inline with the exclusions the CRPA has made. What's next, a Cease & Desist letter for me, too?

More lies, all you seem to ever do is complain and try to stir up more controversy. I guess someone should change your status and remove all that C3 stuff.

bigcalidave
05-17-2012, 11:55 PM
I never heard anything about kicking you out, but honestly we already got rid of one brandon, why would we need another. The rest of your statement is just more arrogant garbage. It has nothing to do with exclusions, you don't do anything for Calguns, and you only make disparaging remarks about it. Why should you have any status in regards to the "CALGUNS" community chapters? BTW wtf did you help build? In the long and detailed version of the C3 beginnings, I never heard your name once. You were just brandons friend.

greasemonkey
05-18-2012, 12:05 AM
I do enjoy some funny jokes, thanks Dave :)

Kestryll
05-18-2012, 12:22 AM
You do have one thing right, however. It's been my personal experience that the CRPA and CGN already do operate in lock-step. For quite some time, Tony was allowed right in the middle of CGN's own C3 Leadership structure and decision making processes...

Okay, so we want to go down this road, we can do that.

Yes, Tony was allowed in to several email chains and discussions.
Oddly, those were for coordination on events that Calguns, CRPA and others were involved with such as The Corona 210 Appleseed shoot and the Women on Target event.

Oddly, in addition to Tony representing the CRPA representatives of Appleseed, NRA, NRA Members Councils, Turners Outdoorsman, and other groups that helped to put these events together were allowed in to the discussions and planning sessions.
Yet for some reason you neglect to mention them and don't have a problem with them having access.

when I started asking questions, I was kicked out of all of the C3 Leadership Coordination groups because my concerns were out of lock-step with CRPA.

Again, remember that you are the one who wanted to go down this road publicly.

The reason you have not been part of the C3 conversations is your own doing.
Lets look at the history.
The one event you have ever set up and run was the CGF booth at the AG Expo. This was a CGF organized and sponsored event, that is why CGF provided the liability insurance for it.

However nearly a year after the event and out of the blue you present me and CGN a bill for the booth supplies including tables, sunshades, chairs and every other piece of equipment for the AG Expo booth.
Since this was a CGF event I suggested that you contact Brandon who was treasurer at the time. You swore up and down that no, it was a CGN booth even though CGN did not rent the booth space, pay for the insurance or have any first hand involvement.

You insisted that I reimburse you the $1,100.00 for the booth supplies because they were going to be used for CGN events and gun shows.
I took you at your word and paid you the $1,100.00.
This was over a year ago and to the best of ANYBODIES knowledge the only event that those tables, chairs, sunshades and more have been used at since was this years CGF AG Expo booth.

I have no problem paying to help CGF have a booth kit for events, I think it's a great way to get the word out.
However I do have an issue with being told I was liable for your expenses and then being told that the equipment that I paid for was going to be used for CGN events and none ever taking place.

In simple terms by all appearances you lied to me to get me to pay over a thousand dollars for equipment that was only ever used for CGF booths at one event every year under the claim of it being used for multiple CGN events.
This after I had already agreed to take some of the cost burdens off CGF for the first AG Expo by paying half the cost of the paperwork and flyers for the booth.

Just as a side note, every other CGN gun show booth kit or special events booth kit that has been in use for the past two years or more have been made at a cost of $150 or less.

THIS is why you haven't been involved with any C3 Leadership discussions or events.
The only reason I never removed the 'C3' title from under your name was to not raise any questions and have to air dirty laundry in public. However since you wanted to push the point there it is.

Kestryll
05-18-2012, 12:26 AM
Chedda. Hecka chedda. Straight up chedda. Or honey, both seem to attract things.

http://img.tapatalk.com/3283aaf7-d539-a4ad.jpg

Just a theory at this point.

Seriously??

Just the past few events Calguns.net has cosponsored with CRPA, Appleseed, NRAWOT and others have cost me over $10,000.00 with NONE of the events designed or intended to return any of that money.

Yeah, I suck as a businessman but that's not the point of these efforts.

'Chedda'?
Seriously?

paul0660
05-18-2012, 12:38 AM
Yikes.

zing.

nick
05-18-2012, 12:41 AM
Did I mention how much I hate seeing bickering among the people who are supposed to be allies? Right or wrong, it doesn't help the image of all involved, and it gets a lot of gun owners disillusions with the people working on their behalf. Which isn't necessarily rational, since those efforts are mostly great (well, excluding CRPA), but not how many people are 100% rational, and not emotional?

It's just sad all around. I can see Kestryll's point about not airing dirty laundry in public.

bwiese
05-18-2012, 12:48 AM
Folks we're getting a bit off track with drama on some fairly informally set up stuff...

The real issue is having a CRPA organization that's worthy of its legislative aide in Sacto, and one that can accrete political weight (i.e. begin forming a PAC, get involved in popular shooting sports - cowboy, 3-gun, etc. to attract people).

The very idea of setting up a PAC will get members/donors - if it's run competently.

I will also note that one of the reasons you have board reforms is that Younger Large Donors like transparency and open active Boards.

I will also note that one of the largest IPOs in history is occurring in the next day or two, with a huge number of liberty-minded Silicon Valley folks who could have been talked into gun rights support solely on a California basis, regardless of their opinion of NRA out in Fairfax VA.

But apparently CRPA mgmt is not aware that activist donors [i.e., not old fogies that die off and leave $$ in their will] like to see strucutred orgs so they know their money will be at work. This was a key part of bylaws reform.

Kerplow
05-18-2012, 1:04 AM
Without hijacking this thread, is there somewhere I can read about the issues regarding CRPA leadership? I'm also slightly confused as to how board members seem powerless to effect change if the purpose of a board is to direct an organization. Is it a majority issue, or is there some entity that supersedes the board?

ETA: Read over some of savecrpa.org but it seemed a bit vague. Other than having difficulty effecting change, is there anything the current CRPA leadership is doing to hurt the cause, or is it simply an unwillingness to engage in meaningful endeavors?

nick
05-18-2012, 1:04 AM
Folks we're getting a bit off track with drama on some fairly informally set up stuff...

The real issue is having a CRPA organization that's worthy of its legislative aide in Sacto, and one that can accrete political weight (i.e. begin forming a PAC, get involved in popular shooting sports - cowboy, 3-gun, etc. to attract people).

The very idea of setting up a PAC will get members/donors - if it's run competently.

I will also note that one of the reasons you have board reforms is that Younger Large Donors like transparency and open active Boards.

I will also note that one of the largest IPOs in history is occurring in the next day or two, with a huge number of liberty-minded Silicon Valley folks who could have been talked into gun rights support solely on a California basis, regardless of their opinion of NRA out in Fairfax VA.

But apparently CRPA mgmt is not aware that activist donors [i.e., not old fogies that die off and leave $$ in their will] like to see strucutred orgs so they know their money will be at work. This was a key part of bylaws reform.

Does it have to be CRPA? Can CRPA be left to die (or live) on its own, while a new organization does what we hope CRPA would be doing?

Basically, what I'm asking is whether CRPA shell really is necessary, or can CGF (or some other newly-formed entity) just start doing that sort of things with or without CRPA? After all, CRPA doesn't seem to want to do that anyway.

jdberger
05-18-2012, 1:11 AM
Kes, Dave, Grease?

Take it to another thread. Please don't clog this one with thread veer.

Thanks

jdberger
05-18-2012, 1:19 AM
Without hijacking this thread, is there somewhere I can read about the issues regarding CRPA leadership? I'm also slightly confused as to how board members seem powerless to effect change if the purpose of a board is to direct an organization. Is it a majority issue, or is there some entity that supersedes the board?

ETA: Read over some of savecrpa.org but it seemed a bit vague. Other than having difficulty effecting change, is there anything the current CRPA leadership is doing to hurt the cause, or is it simply an unwillingness to engage in meaningful endeavors?

It's a majority issue (or rather a super-majority issue). 2/3 vote is needed to change the Bylaws. The calcified side has the ability to appoint as many Directors as they wish, and have n iron grip n the elected seats, with the xcption of about 6 (or 10).

There's a big thread somewhere, but I on an iPad and dot have the patience to find it right now.

AnywY, the crux of the dispute is exactly how much control members of a membership organization should have.

We resigned and threatened former Directors think, lots.

bigcalidave
05-18-2012, 1:22 AM
Josh I try and try to not respond to the crap I see posted, but it wears me thin.. It was a response though, and you know exactly where the problem comes from.

Kerplow
05-18-2012, 1:29 AM
It's a majority issue (or rather a super-majority issue). 2/3 vote is needed to change the Bylaws. The calcified side has the ability to appoint as many Directors as they wish, and have n iron grip n the elected seats, with the xcption of about 6 (or 10).

There's a big thread somewhere, but I on an iPad and dot have the patience to find it right now.

AnywY, the crux of the dispute is exactly how much control members of a membership organization should have.

We resigned and threatened former Directors think, lots.

Thanks for the reply. The situation sounds rather sheisty. So, there are elected members as well as appointed members? Let me guess, the elected members cannot account for more than 2/3's? What about the bylaws needs changing?

Gray Peterson
05-18-2012, 2:06 AM
Thanks for the reply. The situation sounds rather sheisty. So, there are elected members as well as appointed members? Let me guess, the elected members cannot account for more than 2/3's? What about the bylaws needs changing?

The elected members do not, under current bylaws, add up to 2/3. That's crap, & makes it where executive staff can prevent bylaw changes by appointing loyalists.

I realize many gun owners are stubbornly individualistic and do not take direction well from leaders telling them to do something other than "vote with your feet" on this issue. I ask those who are stating they will not renew or will not join, that is completely counterproductive to what Gene & others are trying to do.

You don't have standing unless you are a member.

wildhawker
05-18-2012, 2:19 AM
Paul, Dave, Jacob:

Yes or no: is it acceptable to you that the CRPA has threatened me and Gene (and others) with litigation?

Again, yes or no: will you resign in protest should the CRPA executives choose to file a lawsuit against me and Gene (and possibly others)?

Finally, which board members have committed to you that they are willing to - at least - vote to adopt NRA-style election practices? If you're not willing to name names, then provide us all with a hard count, please.

-Brandon

ptoguy2002
05-18-2012, 6:24 AM
Did I mention how much I hate seeing bickering among the people who are supposed to be allies? Right or wrong, it doesn't help the image of all involved, and it gets a lot of gun owners disillusions with the people working on their behalf...............

This.
This thread is awfully depressing.
How about a virtual group hug?
http://nanciemwai.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/GroupHug.jpg

edwardm
05-18-2012, 7:38 AM
Ya, I am literally paying them to send me threatening letters. Heck, I can send myself threatening letters, for free!!!!

:D

You know.

You should do that. And CC the appropriate folks. Also, for greater effect, make sure the nastygram From: You, To: You is CC'd to "File."

Points for being thorough.

If you'll excuse me, it's Friday. I'm letting slip the bonds of sanity a few hours early.

choprzrul
05-18-2012, 7:50 AM
CalGunsPac.org is available.

Build it and they will come.

I wrote the bylaws for the BoD that I am on now and am willing to help establish California's newest NRA affiliate.

This whole deal feels like a bunch of siblings fighting. GTFoverit. CRPA is no longer a viable entity and is destined to dry up and die. There are many brilliant and resourceful people here that can make this become a solution. Build it the way you want it up front.

.

Gray Peterson
05-18-2012, 8:31 AM
CalGunsPac.org is available.

Build it and they will come.

I wrote the bylaws for the BoD that I am on now and am willing to help establish California's newest NRA affiliate.

This whole deal feels like a bunch of siblings fighting. GTFoverit. CRPA is no longer a viable entity and is destined to dry up and die. There are many brilliant and resourceful people here that can make this become a solution. Build it the way you want it up front.

.

Gene, Bill, and JD say differently. Read what I said above.

Kestryll
05-18-2012, 8:37 AM
Paul, Dave, Jacob:

Yes or no: is it acceptable to you that the CRPA has threatened me and Gene (and others) with litigation?
Ahh the 'yes or no ploy'. Sorry this is a court room where you get to limit people's responses to make them sound the way you want.

CRPA has every right to defend their Trademark and Name by threatening litigation or even by filing a lawsuit.

The problem is you asked the wrong question, you should have asked if I thought their claim had any merit to which I would have answered no I do not.

But then again you're after a sound bite not an answer.

Again, yes or no: will you resign in protest should the CRPA executives choose to file a lawsuit against me and Gene (and possibly others)?
Why exactly should I 'resign in protest?
Other than feeding egos what does that accomplish?
Is there some twisted manner in which it is suppose to display 'loyalty' or just that I'm not suppose to think for myself?

I may well resign one day but it will be for my reasons, not as a useless gesture.


Finally, which board members have committed to you that they are willing to - at least - vote to adopt NRA-style election practices? If you're not willing to name names, then provide us all with a hard count, please.

-Brandon

Umm, yeah.

I would suspect that you of all people would understand why your question is laughable.
How many times have you told people you were not going to comment on a work in progress?

Yet here you are demanding that I do so, why?



ETA: "you should have asked if I thought their claim had any merit to which I would have answered no I do not."

Just to expound on this my thoughts are that this was an ill timed and ill conceived letter, if CRPA wanted to make an issue of this the time was a month or more ago.
All they've done now is present a threat of legal action that even I as a non-attorney can see wouldn't survive a mailed-in motion to dismiss and bring savecrpa.org back in to the spotlight.
So no, I can't be mad at them for it, rather I'm more inclined to give a massive facepalm and wonder at how this could have been approved as a good idea.

MrsRazz
05-18-2012, 8:41 AM
I'm not a CRPA member, so I don't have a dog in this fight. I will tell you from an outsider's point of view, it looks like :slap:

That's exactly what I got off of it too. Their very first point of contention is the link to CGF, which to me, means that this is their primary issue. They state that they view CGF as competition rather than a "brother in arms" (pun intended).

I find it odd that an organization to protect 2A wants to stop people trying to save said organization, because some of those people have ties to a separate organization trying to protect the same rights. They're on the same side, but instead of focusing on the "enemy" one side is having a pissing match?

Kukuforguns
05-18-2012, 9:28 AM
Know your place Paul. You hurt things when you try to achieve control of things that are not in your control. Go ahead and ban me, or just say something snarky, but please pray about this first.

You hurt the movement when you take odd positions against the movement's own leaders. On a more concrete level, think about your traffic figures if certain people decide to move this game somewhere else.

You can't just say "my toy" forever. This movement has gotten larger than your site. Your site is only a reflection of the movement, it is not the movement. You confuse cause and effect.To those involved in this dog fight:

You are airing this argument on a public forum. The only point I can see that you hope to gain by airing the dispute in public is to gain public support for your point of view. As several other posters have suggested, neither side is winning more public support. Rather, you risk alienating public support. I'm not suggesting that you give a big group hug and sing Kumbaya, but please discuss your dispute in private. And then, move on.

dantodd
05-18-2012, 9:29 AM
Right now, the gravity is towards this site, due to who hangs out here. But I seriously do not think that people will visit CGN to read Paul's posts. Gene's yes, Paul's no. Brandon's yes, Pau's no. Kevin's yes, Paul's no. Bill's yes, Paul's no.

Etc. . . .

The reason is that Paul just runs a website, nothing more. We run an empire of win.

Paul needs to be aware that the entire base of our civil rights movement will stick with the winners, and the base knows who the winners are, and knows who the losers will be, if we go much farther down this road.

Ignoring the personal attacks on Paul, the important points you raise are:
1) Right now, the gravity is toward this site.
2) CGF et. al. run an empire of win
3) the movement will stick with winners.

Sadly, the recent problems have all stemmed from the efforts of a few people to try and bring CRPA a bucket full of win. the CRPA was given a chance to step in front of a big parade of civil rights wins and they chose to not only decline the offer of helping lead a winning team but they ousted and/or marginalized those this bucket full of win.

The NRA shifted its focus a number of years ago toward "gun rights" but they still maintain a lot of educational and competitive programs. The CRPA is happy to be left behind in the shadow of the pre-Wayne La Pierre NRA.

The Gleam
05-18-2012, 9:32 AM
CRPA was a problem group for a number of years, due to the lobbyist that they had previously (not now), and some problems within leadership.


You've got that right; I had such high regard for CRPA from the early 1990's and up until around 2004; that was about the time it seemed to take a quick nose-dive in so many ways.

What is CRPA now? A shadow of its old self. When I see this SLAPP appoach, it disgusts me. Instead of a C&D letter, the more appropriate approach for CRPA would be to get involved with those critical of its implementation and perenial chaos, and JOIN in open discussion with the "Save CRPA" people collectively.

Dear CRPA: You're doing it wrong. :no:

HowardW56
05-18-2012, 9:40 AM
Dear CRPA: You're doing it wrong. :no:


Where is the LIKE button????


:iagree:

Kestryll
05-18-2012, 9:50 AM
Know your place Paul.

Yes massa, I'm sorry massa I didn't means to speak out of turn massa I bes good and just shut up and stand in the corner waiting for your orders massa!!!

You know, this comment is very telling.
I have an opinion and view that is my own, not one crafted by someone else for me, and when I voice it or worse yet act on it you take steps to vilify me for doing so and to try to threaten or cajole me in to silence.

I and some others have felt that there is value in trying to make changes from within CRPA as well as from without and as such have not resigned.
Your response is to try to paint us as 'traitors' and 'sellouts'.

Remind me again what your complaints are with CRPA?
Lack of allowing a voice and input by individuals?
Expecting people to move in lockstep with what 'leaders' decide and mandate?
'Punishing' those who disagree or voice a different view?

Sound familiar Kevin?

but please pray about this first.
Perhaps you should have taken your own advice before posting.

You hurt the movement when you take odd positions against the movement's own leaders.
So what you're saying is that I should shut up, do what I'm told and not have or voice my own thoughts or opinions.

Again, isn't this what you're railing against with CRPA?

On a more concrete level, think about your traffic figures if certain people decide to move this game somewhere else.
Now this is amusing, the entire focus of this thread is about CRPA threatening Gene, Brandon and others and yet you move directly to rying to threaten me.
What makes it more amusing is that you make this threat and then later accuse me of fear and greed while trying to instill those two attributes:
How can you not see that greed and fear are harming things here, Paul?
We'll come back to that later but the diametric nature of those two comments needed to be pointed out.

Your own faith Paul, teaches you to work out of love (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+13&version=NIV). And yet, you harm the very cause that is bringing your family food.

It also teaches us to not look at the splinter in another's eye when we an not see beyond the beam in our own.

Tell me Kevin, are you acting out of love or self interest in your threats and accusations? Are you adhering to the command to not bear false witness against another?

As for harming the cause, I wasn't aware that ANY cause that was right and just only allowed a singular and 'approved' point of view and opinion.
That's a rather grim and sad position to take.

Gray Peterson
05-18-2012, 9:51 AM
Paul,

To add my own experience here, staying on as a board member of an organization adds credence to the calcified faction that what Gene & others are doing is wrong.

"Well, even Paul doesn't think what they are doing is right because he's staying on".

You can't hear anything because the plotting & scheming by this faction will never be in your earshot. This is why your motives for staying on as board member are being questioned.

Sudden resignations are damaging to the people in power. You notice the questions the media as when a member of the President's cabinet resigns in protest? Your insistence on staying on gives credence & comfort to the attacks in the reformer faction, making the old guard faction think that what they are doing is correct.

NoJoke
05-18-2012, 9:55 AM
Ok, consider me the slow kid on the block here....

Who is Paul?
Does he run this place?
Does he have a problem with taking issue w/ what CRPA has done?

If "yes" then....
Is he NUTS?

I can state for a fact I am here for people like oaklander, gene.....

dantodd
05-18-2012, 9:56 AM
Yes massa, I'm sorry massa I didn't means to speak out of turn massa I bes good and just shut up and stand in the corner waiting for your orders massa!!!

You may want to pull the racist stuff out of your post. It demeans both you and your argument.

paul0660
05-18-2012, 9:58 AM
Ok, consider me the slow kid on the block here....

Who is Paul?
Does he run this place?
Does he have a problem with taking issue w/ what CRPA has done?

If "yes" then....
Is he NUTS?

I can state for a fact I am here for people like oaklander, gene.....

Paul is Kestryll.

LOL not ME.

I don't understand much of this. I never liked CRPA because they had bad legal info in their FAQ.

I hope the family can get back together. I have Rodney King's cell number and I will use it if I have to.

dantodd
05-18-2012, 9:59 AM
Ok, consider me the slow kid on the block here....

Who is Paul?
Does he run this place?
Does he have a problem with taking issue w/ what CRPA has done?

If "yes" then....
Is he NUTS?

I can state for a fact I am here for people like oaklander, gene.....

Paul is Kestryll.
He OWNS CalGuns.net and these forums.
He has said that he opposes 'some' of the things the CRPA board is doing but has not come out and condemned things such as removing Gene and Brett from the board etc. I think that the best way to understand his attempts to walk the fence is to read his posts in this thread. It appears he is attempting to not take sides. No, he is not nuts.

The Gleam
05-18-2012, 9:59 AM
The reason is that Paul just runs a website, nothing more. We run an empire of win.




Sure. Mark Zuckerberg just "runs a website".

Now I'm not a Facebook fan nor have I ever joined, merely because I don't see any tangible purpose in its trivial pursuits of idle puffery and posting self-aggrandizing fodder. It's like a personal reality show with no accomplishment; everyone is their own Kim Kardashian in microcosmic frivolity.

However, CRPA does very little to run a socially active website, where being a socially supported organization, its members banding together is absolutely vital to its existence; having an internet forum would be key to a socially dependent organization.

Why is that? How can CRPA have gone so long without any kind of fully realized forum for open discussion and networked support on issues, which was previously an incredibly weak aspect of 2nd amendment activists, which had but one or two outlets of a monthly NRA or CRPA meeting, or a gun show?

Their website looks like something from 1998:

http://blog.crpa.org/ :rolleyes:

But how serendipitous and ironic that the CRPA's Forum can actually be found at this link:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=164

:thumbsup:

...just runs a website? It would seem that just running a website also means doing extra duty to compensate for CRPA's continual anemia, apathy, and naivety about it's own organization's model, support profile, and needs for a utility that socially connects its members.

Barney Fife
05-18-2012, 10:01 AM
Ok, consider me the slow kid on the block here....

Who is Paul?

Paul is Ketryll


Does he run this place?
Yes, he runs and owns this place[/quote]

Does he have a problem with taking issue w/ what CRPA has done?

No he doesn't but many here seem to want you to think that he does for their own reasons whatever they may be.

If "yes" then....
Is he NUTS?

Yes he is nuts, but not for that reason.

I can state for a fact I am here for people like oaklander, gene.....

That's your perrogative, but realize that there is more than two sides to most stories like this. And often the side that is trying to do the right thing the right way is often out shouted, even when they have the power to be loudest.

Barney Fife
05-18-2012, 10:02 AM
Did Paul post something meaningful?

I can't read what he writes. It makes me sad for his ability to see reality.

Nice ad hominem Oak. That should help.

paul0660
05-18-2012, 10:03 AM
Nice ad hominem Oak. That should help.

Really. A fellow who wants to run for public office.

BigFatGuy
05-18-2012, 10:04 AM
Just think of how much work could be done if these efforts were turned towards helping our gun rights instead of saving an organization that is determined to become useless and irrelevant.

You are all good, hard working people. Why let the CRPA waste that work?

Barney Fife
05-18-2012, 10:04 AM
Do you have an LTC? Of course you do. . .

Do you know what you are talking about? of c...nevermind I'll leave that road for you.

paul0660
05-18-2012, 10:08 AM
Yet another cop.

Folks, see what I am getting at.

Funny thing is, never been one, never said I was, don't really like them. Oaklander, you have as much chance of getting elected to anything, or having a following, as I do of having Glenn Close delivered from my mangina.

(was just watching the Shield season 4).

The Gleam
05-18-2012, 10:09 AM
The reason is that Paul just runs a website, nothing more. We run an empire of win.




Sure. Mark Zuckerberg just "runs a website".

Now I'm not a Facebook fan nor have I ever joined, merely because I don't see any tangible purpose in its trivial pursuits of idle puffery and posting self-aggrandizing fodder. It's like a personal reality show with no accomplishment; everyone is their own Kim Kardashian in microcosmic frivolity.

However, CRPA does very little to run a socially active website, where being a socially supported organization, its members banding together is absolutely vital to its existence; having an internet forum would be key to a socially dependent organization. Because of that, I have gotten more out of Calguns.net, more qualitative action and results in the networking it supports, enjoying more knowledge and organized resistance to California's anti-2nd Amendment bills and laws, than I have ever seen from CRPA in 20 years.

Why is that? How can CRPA have gone so long without any kind of fully realized forum for open discussion and networked support on issues, which was previously an incredibly weak aspect of 2nd Amendment activists, which had but one or two outlets of a monthly NRA or CRPA meeting, or a gun show?

Their website looks like something from 1998:

http://blog.crpa.org/ :rolleyes:

But how serendipitous and ironic that the CRPA's Forum can actually be found at this link:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=164

:thumbsup:

...just runs a website? It would seem that just running a website also means doing extra duty to compensate for CRPA's continual anemia, apathy, and naivety about its own organization's model, support profile, and needs for a utility that socially connects its members.

-----------------------

dantodd
05-18-2012, 10:09 AM
Contempt of cop?

Take 5 minutes and come back and go through your recent posts. These are not you. They are an angry man.

Barney Fife
05-18-2012, 10:09 AM
Yet another cop.

Folks, see what I am getting at.

I see that you are dishonest and willing to make false statements and character assasination without having a clue of the facts.

For instance.
I am not, and never have been, a LEO.

I took this icon and name as a joke about how *some* people in this community take themselves too seriously.

Classic politician your doing well!

blakdawg
05-18-2012, 10:09 AM
Sudden resignations are damaging to the people in power. You notice the questions the media as when a member of the President's cabinet resigns in protest? Your insistence on staying on gives credence & comfort to the attacks in the reformer faction, making the old guard faction think that what they are doing is correct.

... Mr. Emerson visited Thoreau at the jail, and the meeting between the two philosophers must have been interesting and somewhat dramatic. The account of the meeting was told me by Miss Maria Thoreau [Henry Thoreau's aunt]: "Henry, why are you here? Waldo, why are you not here?"

Kestryll
05-18-2012, 10:10 AM
Paul,

To add my own experience here, staying on as a board member of an organization adds credence to the calcified faction that what Gene & others are doing is wrong.

"Well, even Paul doesn't think what they are doing is right because he's staying on".
Gray I would agree with you if all I and others were doing was to be quiet and agree with everyone but that's not what we're doing.

In EVERY conference call, meeting, email chain and discussion I am bringing up and pressing the issue of elected Board seats.
Whatever the discussion is about I am trying to turn it in to a means to start following the NRA example.

As I said, if I were to be silent and just go along with what other CRPA Board members wanted me to do then yes, I would be lending credibility to their views.
Fortunately that is NOT what I am doing.


You can't hear anything because the plotting & scheming by this faction will never be in your earshot. This is why your motives for staying on as board member are being questioned.
Oh believe me, those who do not share my views on reform are anything but subtle or quiet.

Sudden resignations are damaging to the people in power.
Are they?
So far people have resigned, there was some dust-up over it for a week and then life went on.
Frankly as ill conceived as this C&D letter was I would think that it would be considered a good thing!
This issue and the resignations had fallen from the collective consciousness as yesterday's news but this has brought it to the forefront once again.
I'd be curious to see what savecrpa.org's traffic numbers looked like for the week or two before this letter and what they look like now.

You notice the questions the media as when a member of the President's cabinet resigns in protest?
I think we're missing a matter of scale here with this comparison.


Your insistence on staying on gives credence & comfort to the attacks in the reformer faction, making the old guard faction think that what they are doing is correct.
My insistence in staying is a choice I made based on my opinion that change can still be affected from within.

I'll be frank, this letter and it's accusatory comments towards 'Calguns' have made me wonder if I have been mistaken that change is possible. I have gone out of my way to explain the difference between CGN, CGF, individual people who are members of the Calguns forum and such at every Board meeting and in emails too numerous to count and yet the answer always seems to be 'The difference is hard to grasp'.
I'm having a hard time with that answer.

If I resign it will be because I feel there is compelling reasons, not because 'everyone else is doing it and if you don't you're a traitor.'

paul0660
05-18-2012, 10:12 AM
I feel there is compelling reasons

I am not sure you are doing this well Kes, but I hope you know Oaklander's opinion is worthless. NO response necessary.

Got to go.

mofugly13
05-18-2012, 10:20 AM
You know what Yoda said about anger, fear, agression...

Kukuforguns
05-18-2012, 10:43 AM
Of course I am angry. Should I be calm right now? I really do not like getting letters threatening me with legal stuff. And I do not like what is happening here. But you are right. I will leave this discussion for a while. What needs to happen will happen.

But I know I am right, it is absolutely a split along "universal" vs "limited" rights. Note that both Pauls, and Barney backed away from answering the question about what type of rights they support.

This stuff makes me angry, and even more so, since I see and touch the effects here in Oakland. I do not even need to reply to the jabs from the Pauls, or the Barneys. It is hard to take people like that seriously at this point. Every single day, I interact with people who are very likely illegally carrying guns, and who would literally shoot me if I said or did the wrong thing. So again, this is like me arguing with ants.

No, you should not be angry. Again, you are seeing this as an attack on you. That is the wrong way to view the C&D letter. It is not an attack. It's a warning sign from a cornered rattlesnake. Your anger is making you view the letter only from your own perspective.

Your anger also is making you strike out at allies. Kestryll has created a wonderful place to openly and fairly discuss our Second Amendment rights. This forum has increased public awareness of CalGuns Foundation and the good work it does. In short, this forum strengthens CalGuns Foundation.

You know the C&D letter is weak to the point of meaningless. You know this. I could successfully defend you and everyone else who got one of these letters in my sleep. So, don't be angry. Find a lawyer you trust and have that lawyer send a response to CRPA that clearly indicates they are wrong. Silence here could be misinterpreted as acquiescence. I would think that you want to avoid a law suit here. So, show them that the law is categorically on your side.

And then . . . keep doing the good work you want to do. If you want to take over CRPA, keep trying.

But, please, stop being angry. Or, at the very least, stop letting your anger control your behavior.

SmokinMr2
05-18-2012, 10:56 AM
Of course I am angry. Should I be calm right now? I really do not like getting letters threatening me with legal stuff. And I do not like what is happening here. But you are right. I will leave this discussion for a while. What needs to happen will happen.

But I know I am right, it is absolutely a split along "universal" vs "limited" rights. Note that both Pauls, and Barney backed away from answering the question about what type of rights they support.

This stuff makes me angry, and even more so, since I see and touch the effects here in Oakland. I do not even need to reply to the jabs from the Pauls, or the Barneys. It is hard to take people like that seriously at this point. Every single day, I interact with people who are very likely illegally carrying guns, and who would literally shoot me if I said or did the wrong thing. So again, this is like me arguing with ants.

Well I'm not a CRPA member because they have always seemed useless to me in trying to regain any rights for my interests.
I don't support them.
If you think we need an org like that for California, make a new one.

Watching you guys argue is like watching animals eat their young.


Oh well. I try to stay out of this kind of crap, but I gotta say Oak, the self righteous, arrogant *** act isn't doing you any favors.

Kestryll
05-18-2012, 10:56 AM
Thanks brother. You are right. Quite honestly, I am conflating the two things in my head more than I should be (the oakland anti-violence stuff, and the gun rights stuff). One of my neighbors died as a result of gun violence, and for weeks, I had to listen to his dog bark at night, missing him. I miss him.

I just let this stuff get to me more than it should. And I know I am good at being snarky, and I just need to not do that. We are all human, and some of us just need to grow up. I think that person is me. Maybe all of us. We are thinking like children, and it is possible me more than others. OK, with that, I am really out to do some day job stuff so I can pay rent.

Paul and Paul and Barney, I am sorry. Again, you guys are not entirely wrong on things. None of us are. OK, I am done James Browning this. I am really out. You all fix it, and you will.




With that said before asking that we move this thread back to discussing the C&D letter I'd like to clarify a few things.

First my thoughts are that this was an ill timed and ill conceived letter, if CRPA wanted to make an issue of this the time was a month or more ago.
All they've done now is present a threat of legal action that even I as a non-attorney can see wouldn't survive a mailed-in motion to dismiss and bring savecrpa.org back in to the spotlight.
So no, I can't be mad at them for it, rather I'm more inclined to give a massive facepalm and wonder at how this could have been approved as a good idea.

Second, I know anger and emotion can get the best of all of us sometimes, I am no exception to this for certain, and we say things and imply things we do not mean.
The trick we all have to learn is not to take these things personally, we simply can not do that. Doing so allows others to control our actions and words, it is a luxury we can not allow ourselves.

Now I would ask that we step away from the anger, vitriol and attack/counter-attacks and return to the discussion of the C&D letter.
Thank you.

HowardW56
05-18-2012, 10:59 AM
Take 5 minutes and come back and go through your recent posts. These are not you. They are an angry man.

Kevin, I have to agree with Dan here...

Your posts have been uncharacteristically harsh and rude. This is nothing similar to your usual demeanor…

Step back and take a break….

oaklander
05-18-2012, 11:05 AM
Kevin, I have to agree with Dan here...

Your posts have been uncharacteristically harsh and rude. This is nothing similar to your usual demeanor…

Step back and take a break….

I am deleting most of the recent ones. And I apologize to the community. There is a thin line between passion, which is good, and just being a dick, which is bad.

I crossed it. We all must just step back. When we were at Murphys, we all had a great time, and realized that we were on the same team. That unity must happen again.

I am just not a good dick, and I am not like that in person, so why should I be like this on the internet? It makes me into a hypocrite. We must work out of love, and it will start with me, at least. I promise this. I will no longer say negative things on this topic. None of us should. We should only think about how to repair the damage, and come together, once again, as a strong vibrant movement.

Californio
05-18-2012, 11:23 AM
Why does a Google Books search show the formation of the

California Rifle and Pistol Association on November 1, 1921?

http://books.google.com/books?id=0xBLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA439&dq=California+Rifle+and+Pistol+Association&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hZG2T8PRPMfkiALL1N3EBg&sqi=2&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=California%20Rifle%20and%20Pistol%20Association&f=false


1875 or 1921 what is real and what is an illusion?

paul0660
05-18-2012, 11:32 AM
I crossed it.

You did. But it made for great sig.

Keep it classy EVERYONE.

oaklander
05-18-2012, 11:42 AM
You did. But it made for great sig.

Keep it classy EVERYONE.

Yes, I think we can all agree on this. I am seriously the nicest person in real life, and I think I fall for that same thing that a lot of us do, which is just that we feel like we can post anything we want online. We forget that there are people on the other side of the keyboard.

So many times, I have gotten into an "internet argument" with someone, and then just picked up the phone, and realized that we were not even arguing. This happened during a recent build party the Grease knows about. Turns out the guy has become one of our movement's best friends.

We must all kind of shoot for the group hug ending on these things. We will fail, if we do not.

paul0660
05-18-2012, 11:46 AM
I deleted my best posts.

That is why I am still here.

I don't hug dudes any more. Fist bumps only.

*fist bump*

If any of you are chicks, consider your midsection touched................

Gray Peterson
05-18-2012, 12:01 PM
Why does a Google Books search show the formation of the

California Rifle and Pistol Association on November 1, 1921?

http://books.google.com/books?id=0xBLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA439&dq=California+Rifle+and+Pistol+Association&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hZG2T8PRPMfkiALL1N3EBg&sqi=2&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=California%20Rifle%20and%20Pistol%20Association&f=false


1875 or 1921 what is real and what is an illusion?

Is it possible Golden Gate or the southern Pacific club formed in 1875?

nick
05-18-2012, 12:06 PM
You know what Yoda said about anger, fear, agression...

Use them to take over the largest political entity in the galaxy?

oaklander
05-18-2012, 12:06 PM
I deleted my best posts.

That is why I am still here.

I don't hug dudes any more. Fist bumps only.

*fist bump*

If any of you are chicks, consider your midsection touched................

:grouphug:

Yes, we need more of this. Maybe the thing to do is to just not post something that we would not feel comfortable saying to a friend? I do not treat my friends the way that I just treated some people here, including you. None of us do. I think this whole dynamic is an illustration of how the internet cuts both ways.

We return to our regularly scheduled programming! I have met over a thousand Calgunners, at various events. And we are all generally good people. We must remember this. And if we are good people in real life, then we must be good people here too.

And that means that Paul N. is right, we just treat each other better here. I think it is a real simple concept that will have good results.

oaklander
05-18-2012, 12:15 PM
Use them to take over the largest political entity in the galaxy?

But in the end, the good guys won!!!

It really is a battle between ways of viewing people. Our real opposition (and it is not "us") is a way of thinking that says that people have little rights, and that others decide for us, what our rights should be.

It is not even a person, when you get down to it. Rather, it is a mindset.

This is why BEING right, and BEING moral, and acting with DIGNITY, matter. I just saw what happens when *I* do not. Now scale this up. The basic principles of simply being good, and being moral, and saying things in a way that shows compassion and love, matter.

It is not theory. Movements that are based on hate, fail. We must return to being a love movement. And I know that seems simplistic, but the truth is that movements based on fear and hate, never prevail.

They never have, for any length of time. Hate empires, fail. And we are not an empire of hate. We are an empire of win. And just like a body has arms and legs and eyes, and they all work together, our movement has different parts that all work together.

I will admit that there are many things I simply can't do. I have trouble with details, for example, and I have trouble with many other things. That is why I have friends who help me. And then those people might have trouble with other things that *I* am good at. And so I help them. In this way, we all work together as a single body.

But no one person is BETTER than anyone else, and no one person is worth any less than any other person. We are all in this together, we must be, and we must show respect for each of us.

This is the essential message of my own faith, and no matter what faith people have, most folks understand the importance of working out of love, and doing things for the right reasons, and showing compassion, and listening and admitting fault.

AGAIN, I just watched my own self get petty and vindictive. I saw how it started to harm friendships. As a movement, and we ARE a movement, we must never go there. Consider me an example of how to really mess things up for people. Please do not do what I just did. It helps no person.

Please, we all just need to get back to being friends.

pennys dad
05-18-2012, 12:53 PM
It is not theory. Movements that are based on hate, fail. We must return to being a love movement. And I know that seems simplistic, but the truth is that movements based on fear and hate, never prevail.



Oaklander then why are some of the folks on the side you are claiming driving a hate agenda?
Those of us that choose to stay and work for positive effect in the CRPA, made a choice and we are attacked by yours for not following along with a hate agenda.

NoJoke
05-18-2012, 1:09 PM
LOVE the energy here!

We will be able to do GREAT things!

I'm going outside and lighting up a stogie, once the exchange has cooled a bit, and dream about the next poor city that will receive our energy!

I think there's a lot of pent up energy and we need to go sue everybody in the room! :beer::beer::stogie: :cool:



Sometimes actions speak louder than words, lets just keep focus on the campaign and steamroller right on down the road. Our successes will speak volumes for us in the rear view mirror of history.


Rock on team!

oaklander
05-18-2012, 1:14 PM
Oaklander then why are some of the folks on the side you are claiming driving a hate agenda?
Those of us that choose to stay and work for positive effect in the CRPA, made a choice and we are attacked by yours for not following along with a hate agenda.

We *all* need to calm down right now. There is too much stuff flying around. Let us all just kind of step away for a while. Me first. I am going out to lunch with my wife, and then likely for a bike ride. I have some work stuff to do and will do it tonight.

We are all good people here, and this division serves no purpose. There is a right side, and there is a wrong side, but perhaps they do not even disagree on most things, and it is that point of commonality among the people that will solve this.

I HATE this disharmony. I thought we fixed it with the Murphys event, when people could get together and just get past things. There ARE people who are doing things that hurt us, but maybe the way we need to react is with more love, more turning of cheeks, and more unity.

I do not know.

I am generally good at figuring stuff out, but this whole thing has me confused. Where is the unity now? Was it something that was an illusion?

I do not think so.

I think that we are all just literally emotional, or many of us, and the emotions are causing us to do and say the wrong things. I am normally not one to admit this, but I am wrong right now. And I just need to stop and clear my head, and think about what our true opposition is.

I do not even think it is a person. I think it is a mindset, and people can be edified. I will edify my own thinking, by admitting fault, by making apologies, and by remembering that none of us would be here if we did not want positive things for our friends, families, state, and nation.

I am truly sorry,

Kevin

Uxi
05-18-2012, 1:34 PM
This sort of thing reminds me of open carry and to a lesser extent the "big tent" philosophy of the political parties vs single interest lobbies. Bit of ego combined with tribalism and too many people "on our side" willing to eat their own.

Kestryll
05-18-2012, 2:07 PM
and too many people "on our side" willing to eat their own.

But we're so tender and delicious...

Californio
05-18-2012, 2:20 PM
Is it possible Golden Gate or the southern Pacific club formed in 1875?

I thought of that C.A.C. is Artillery, Infantry, Navy, Southern Pacific Rifle Club, Olympic Club, Golden Gate Rifle Club.

Southern Pacific Rifle Club? but Henry Huntington was a founding member of Bolsa Chica, he sold his Southern Pacific Shares after Bolsa Chica (1890) so he may been responsible for the Southern Pacific before hand.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3I0wAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA31&dq=Golden+Gate+Rifle+Club&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d6q2T8urMoSliQKIhMTpBg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Golden%20Gate%20Rifle%20Club&f=false

Golden Gate looks like 1914.

http://books.google.com/books?id=hkkcAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA196&dq=Golden+gate+Rifle+Club&hl=en&sa=X&ei=s6y2T-HeBumC2wXU2t2qCQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Golden%20gate%20Rifle%20Club&f=false


Right now I don't buy the 1875 claim. I am going to guess post WWI for Southern Pacific Co. Rifle Club.

FatCity67
05-18-2012, 2:28 PM
This sort of thing reminds me of open carry and to a lesser extent the "big tent" philosophy of the political parties vs single interest lobbies. Bit of ego combined with tribalism and too many people "on our side" willing to eat their own.

Reminds me of the days of managers talking through their administrative assistants when face to face communication broke down.

kcbrown
05-18-2012, 4:13 PM
Ultimately, the question is: what motivates us?

Kes has already explained his reasons for remaining on the board at CRPA. They seem legitimate, consistent with wanting to do the right thing in support for our fight for freedom. Would his resignation have greater impact? Perhaps. But perhaps not. There is quite literally no way to know ahead of time.

Gray's observation about the impact of key people leaving an organization is correct to a point. Much of that correctness depends on the specific circumstances. It depends on who is leaving, what their role is, how they got there, how long they've been there, how they are perceived within the organization, who they are important to, how much influence those they are important to have, etc.

I have no doubt that the CGF leadership has a strategy around this whole CRPA thing. That's just how those guys roll. But no battle plan survives contact with the enemy, and that is why diversity is good. While Kes' decision to remain on the board might not be consistent with the strategy involved, it may prove to be beneficial in the end. Or it might not. Only time will tell.

It's unclear to me, in my naivete (I dare not play cards. :D ), how CRPA can be salvaged. Their entire setup appears to be geared towards keeping the executives in power. And I can hardly believe the CGF leadership doesn't recognize that and account for it in their strategy around this. That means, hopefully, that very good things are coming with respect to all this, and it's just a matter of time.

It's probably safe to bet that we're in for an interesting ride. :43:

sorensen440
05-18-2012, 5:08 PM
I am just not a good dick
Sig line material...

eaglemike
05-18-2012, 7:07 PM
Gene and others that have been served with this letter,
Please keep us up to speed on this. This needs to go away quickly IMO. Any chance the NRA could take note and ask the CPRA "are you out of your gourd?"

I sill don't see how any view of the letter could be seen as positive from any angle - what on earth are they thinking??????

To those that haven't seen it - please look at the recording of the CRPA President's speech at the annual meeting. Add this letter to the list of buffoonery from the CRPA leadership, and it hard for me to believe anyone is still a member. I think a link could likely be found on the SAVE CRPA site.

I mentioned in another thread that all I hear or see (around my area) of the CRPA is a plea for membership money. The NRA member's council's and Friends of the NRA seem to do WAAAAY more as far as education and pro-2A stuff.

Anti-Hero
05-18-2012, 7:50 PM
It's like someone swatted a hornets nest in here.

pennys dad
05-18-2012, 8:47 PM
I HATE this disharmony. I thought we fixed it with the Murphys event, when people could get together and just get past things. There ARE people who are doing things that hurt us, but maybe the way we need to react is with more love, more turning of cheeks, and more unity.


Murphys was cool but if you intended collaboration between CGN/C3 and The Gene Team, we didnt do any, If you want to give it a go again lets make sure we plan the meetings and agenda, in air conditioning ;-)

taperxz
05-18-2012, 8:55 PM
Murphys was cool but if you intended collaboration between CGN/C3 and The Gene Team, we didnt do any, If you want to give it a go again lets make sure we plan the meetings and agenda, in air conditioning ;-)

The Gene Team? Or did you mean The Calguns Foundation?

pennys dad
05-18-2012, 9:02 PM
The Gene Team? Or did you mean The Calguns Foundation?
No I meant exactly what I said.

Kestryll
05-18-2012, 9:06 PM
The Gene Team? Or did you mean The Calguns Foundation?

In this context I believe the two are not the same.

taperxz
05-18-2012, 9:07 PM
For us out of the loop here, what exactly is the "Gene Team?" It sounds like its meant as a swipe. Just my observation.

wildhawker
05-18-2012, 9:27 PM
Pennys dad, what is your agenda?

oaklander
05-18-2012, 9:35 PM
Someone close to me pointed out that we are all kind of "type-A" people, otherwise we would not be in this fight. I am thinking that true unity might not even be possible with our group.

Perhaps the best thing we can hope for is detente? I do not know. I am frustrated with myself right now. Everyone kind of wants the same things, and that we bicker like this is just sad. And again, I am not doing a good job of setting a good example. I let things get the best of me, and I said things that were not appropriate, even among people who are in opposition.

When I got involved in the Oakland anti-violence stuff last year, someone much smarter than me pointed out that the Golden Rule is "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you." He also pointed out that Confucius (and Mencius, who was Confucius' contemporary), said it differently:

They said "do NOT do unto others what you would NOT have them do unto you."

Maybe what we need is simply less of things, and not more of things?

The truth is that the litigation will fix most of these issues, and the grassroots will educate people, in 100,000 different ways. Perhaps we are arguing over things, that, in the long run, may not even matter that much?

Again, I do not know. I am just throwing it out there as something to think about. We all love a good, righteous battle, but perhaps we are simply seeing the wrong opposition. The battles should never be internecine. And I am starting to think that the real opposition is a mindset. It is a mindset that says many things. Perhaps the worse of these is that we even have opposition. In reality, we are impossible to oppose for any length of time. The reason is simple, the national mood has changed over self-defense, and it is reflected in the polls.

It seems to me that our "job," as the grassroots, is to shepherd the restoration of the right. Being a shepherd is different than being a centurion. We still need the centurions, but for most of us (including me, actually) we get more done just being shepherds.

kcbrown
05-18-2012, 9:46 PM
When I got involved in the Oakland anti-violence stuff last year, someone much smarter than me pointed out that the Golden Rule is "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you." He also pointed out that Confucius (and Mencius, who was Confucius' contemporary), said it differently:

They said "do NOT do unto others what you would NOT have them do unto you."


I thought it was "do unto others before they can do unto you". :D


(just kidding, of course. That rendition always comes into my mind when I hear the Golden Rule for some reason, and it's a good thing I don't abide by that rendition of it!)



There will always be disagreements on how best to accomplish the mission. The million dollar question is whether or not we can come together as a cohesive force when it becomes necessary.

I hope we can.

dave_cg
05-18-2012, 9:53 PM
It's unclear to me, in my naivete (I dare not play cards. :D ), how CRPA can be salvaged.

It's not clear to me, either. But the benefits of a successful salvage operation are clear. Taking an existing organization with many members, many good programs, a lobbyist, momentum, and brand, and adding onto that effective 2A advocacy and public outreach is the easiest way to get a lot of momentum going in the right direction. Let's call that Plan A. And obviously, you can't effect change if you don't participate, so it takes people like Kes to glue their butts to their board seats and agitate, or it will never happen.

But it might not happen, even with hard work. My concern is that I don't see a Plan B. Spinning up a new organization from scratch would be hugely expensive and take a huge amount of work. A hundred hard-core volunteers is probably what you would call a skeleton start-up crew. That sobering reality makes Plan A look like a worthwhile exercise.

Just looking at things as the grumpy, grey-beard, engineer that I am, this seems like a case where we need two crews, the Plan A crew, and the Plan B crew. The clock is ticking. What do we do if CRPA implodes? By what deadline do we need an effective state-wide organization, and if CRPA doesn't implode but also doesn't appear to be intersecting that deadline, what do we do?

Sniping at people trying to pull off Plan A doesn't help. Pretending we don't need a Plan B doesn't help. Dispassionate deployment of resources where they are the most effective helps.

greasemonkey
05-18-2012, 9:54 PM
No, you're right, it's a swipe. There's a faction of people who fancy themselves to be a bit more relevant than reality has them placed, who don't realize their position exists specifically because of the progress made by these allegedly crazy people who pay attention to and volunteer for efforts spearheaded and guided by CGF and Gene.

Some people believe that CGN is the reason that gun rights have advanced in California, as such, there's a perceived value and a few people in it for the potential money and notoriety. It's ridiculous and is akin to believing people would never communicate with each other if it weren't for Zuckerberg starting Facebook.


For us out of the loop here, what exactly is the "Gene Team?" It sounds like its meant as a swipe. Just my observation.

pennys dad
05-18-2012, 9:57 PM
Pennys dad, what is your agenda?

To start working on fixing an issue. Brandon, PM Oak or myself.

pennys dad
05-18-2012, 10:01 PM
It's not clear to me, either. But the benefits of a successful salvage operation are clear. Taking an existing organization with many members, many good programs, a lobbyist, momentum, and brand, and adding onto that effective 2A advocacy and public outreach is the easiest way to get a lot of momentum going in the right direction. Let's call that Plan A. And obviously, you can't effect change if you don't participate, so it takes people like Kes to glue their butts to their board seats and agitate, or it will never happen.

But it might not happen, even with hard work. My concern is that I don't see a Plan B. Spinning up a new organization from scratch would be hugely expensive and take a huge amount of work. A hundred hard-core volunteers is probably what you would call a skeleton start-up crew. That sobering reality makes Plan A look like a worthwhile exercise.

Just looking at things as the grumpy, grey-beard, engineer that I am, this seems like a case where we need two crews, the Plan A crew, and the Plan B crew. The clock is ticking. What do we do if CRPA implodes? By what deadline do we need an effective state-wide organization, and if CRPA doesn't implode but also doesn't appear to be intersecting that deadline, what do we do?

Sniping at people trying to pull off Plan A doesn't help. Pretending we don't need a Plan B doesn't help. Dispassionate deployment of resources where they are the most effective helps.

Break the CRPA into logical pieces and then think about which are worth saving.
CRPA Members
CRPA Shooting Sports
CRPA Board
CRPA Executive Committee
and so on

bwiese
05-18-2012, 10:04 PM
Break the CRPA into logical pieces and then think about which are worth saving.
CRPA Members
CRPA Shooting Sports
CRPA Board
CRPA Executive Committee
and so on

Agreed. But it's going to take removal of stasis to make CRPA move forward.

I no longer believe internal forces can accomplish that esp w/current mgmt and no Board election reforms.

Various external pressures will be required.

eaglemike
05-18-2012, 10:07 PM
When the leadership of CRPA starts taking it's responsibility TO THE MEMBERSHIP AS A WHOLE seriously, then change will start. If there is evidence of this, please make it public.

Kestryll
05-18-2012, 10:11 PM
Okay, the time for games is over and everyone here is due an explanation.

Many here and elsewhere felt and still feel that CRPA has fallen behind the times, ceased to be the effective representative of California firearms owners and even at a point in the past became detrimental to 2A rights in California.

Mainly spurred by the last reason several members got themselves on the CRPA Board of Directors hoping to bring about positive change, both in the representation in Sacramento and in the organization.

Gene, Brett and Bill on the Board and others outside of the Board helped to push corrective efforts through removing the problem in Sacramento however it was felt there were still issues with the Board of Directors. Specifically that if such a problem arose again the means by which a CRPA member could get on the Board of Directors was severely limited and could by a small Committee be blocked.

This lead to an effort to create a more open election process which in small part succeeded with the creation of a new Committee that was comprised of people nominated by petition and elected by the membership.

This was a doorway in but some felt that this was not sufficient and a significant rewrite of the by-laws of CRPA was necessary.
As you might expect this was met with resistance by many on the Board of Directors who felt that this was far too much of a change in far too fast of a time.
This lead to the building of 'factions' within the Board of Directors, for the changes, against the changes, for change but at a slower pace and several Directors who were just watching to see how things fell out.

Gene and some who agreed with him felt the changes were needed right away, some on the Board of Directors felt they either weren't needed at all or not in the manner Gene wanted the changes made.
Both viewed the other as opposition and each had a complaint with each other.
Gene and crew felt that the Directors were stonewalling and deliberately hampering any effort to make changes.
Some Directors felt that Gene was pushing a personal agenda or at the least was coming so strong with demands of change and latter threats of litigation that they simply refused to listen.

At this time there were a fair amount of Calgunners on the CRPA Board of Directors, most of whom felt Gene was correct in his efforts to change things and some of which felt that while he was correct his methodology was wrong.

The last CRPA Board meeting was an unpleasant affair with adherents of several 'sides' in opposition to each other and some ill chosen actions were taken and and words said.
Feeling that Gene's high pressure efforts and indirect threats of litigation were not what they wanted to deal with Gene and Brett were not reappointed to the CRPA Board of Directors when their terms were up shortly after the February meeting. This set in motion much of the drama and infighting that you've seen for the last few months and days.

To clarify, several of the CRPA Directors who agreed with Gene's assesment and resigned were also members of CGF's Board of Directors however not all of CGF's Board of Directors was involved in the resignation nor in the various efforts.
It is not right nor fair to say that this was ' CGF effort or plan' regardless of some of the people involved's ties to CGF.

After Gene and Brett were not reappointed there was some divided ideas for how to proceed.
Some felt that change from within the CRPA Board of Directors was now impossible with Gene and Brett no longer on the CRPA Board of Directors and that the only way to affect change was no from without as CRPA members and so they resigned.
Others felt that change could still take place from within with a less confrontational and rushed approach and chose not to resign.

Unfortunately these two groups had conflict as well with each feeling that the other was going to undermine their efforts.
Great pressure was brought to bear on those of us who chose not to resign, a very small portion of which you've seen in this thread.

Most of those who felt that change could only come from outside the CRPA Board were those that resigned in protest of Gene and Brett not being reappointed.
Most of those who wanted to continue to try to affect change from within were members of CGN/C3.
This lead to there being in essence two 'camps' regarding CRPA.
Animosity grew based on several events, what has been called 'Gene and Crew' viewed the CGN/C3 people's refusal to join the mass resignations as an affront and both Calguns.net and CGN/C3 lost a long term and well respected and liked member when she and her husband were verbally attacked in a CRPA thread because she did not vote for Gene's by-laws changes.
After years of contributions to this community she was driven out.

This animosity due to different approaches to the same goal is much of what you are seeing played out here in this thread.

However, unless I missed a meeting and a vote, this is NOT an effort by CGF nor is it indicative of CGN no longer supporting CGF and it's efforts.
It is a separate issue with similar players.


I am quite sure someone will post after this about how I am wrong or spun things in a bias fashion, while that is entirely possible I have tried to recount what has happened and what is happening in the most objective manner that I can.
It's not the apocalypse but it's also not pretty and you the members deserved to know what is going on.


Now that I'm sure I've likely pissed everyone off and will probably be thrown off of both CRPA's and CGF's Boards I'm going to go make a Vodka Collins and look at the stars.

pennys dad
05-18-2012, 10:17 PM
Agreed. But it's going to take removal of stasis to make CRPA move forward.

I no longer believe internal forces can accomplish that esp w/current mgmt and no Board election reforms.

Various external pressures will be required.

It is hard to argue with your logic Bill, but for now I need to maintain hope

pennys dad
05-18-2012, 10:19 PM
When the leadership of CRPA starts taking it's responsibility TO THE MEMBERSHIP AS A WHOLE seriously, then change will start. If there is evidence of this, please make it public.

Eaglemike, I only ask one thing, dont lump all of the board into that one statement.

pennys dad
05-18-2012, 10:24 PM
In this context I believe the two are not the same.

The Gene Team = play on words for - 1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team "Dream Team" maybe it is an age thing.

Kestryll
05-18-2012, 10:25 PM
Crap.
No simple syrup to make a proper Vodka Collins and you can't see the stars worth a crap in Los Angeles.

Looks like it's Vodka neat and T.V.

meaty-btz
05-18-2012, 10:28 PM
As an outsider to this all and with Kes's informative post all I can say is...
There is a War going on and our Generals are fighting eachother and dueling with pistols at dawn.

It never bodes well for the long term campaign if there are troubles in the leadership. I hope that everyone involved can sort this out in a reasonable fashion at some point and that our rights are not sacrificed on any alter of ego. We are in a fight for peoples Rights that involve things that decide if someone lives or dies (yes, if we fail innocents will suffer even more than they already have).

Best of luck to us all I suppose and I pray that these rifts will be closed in a positive and useful fashion, least our enemies smell our weakness and redouble their efforts.

jj805
05-18-2012, 10:28 PM
Crap.
No simple syrup to make a proper Vodka Collins and you can't see the stars worth a crap in Los Angeles.

Looks like it's Vodka neat and T.V.

Simple syrup= 1 part sugar + 1 part water.

Kestryll
05-18-2012, 10:30 PM
Simple syrup= 1 part sugar + 1 part water.

Yeah, but I'm lazy and want my Vodka now. ;)

trashman
05-18-2012, 10:33 PM
Yeah, but I'm lazy and want my Vodka now. ;)

At least drink some good stuff neat - have you had Hanger One?

(Thanks for the core dump on the background info to the CRPA issues)

--Neill

taperxz
05-18-2012, 10:37 PM
Thanks for the info Kes. The way you chronicled the events sure helps, with where you are coming from on the issue.

Its my perception though that in the way you described the scenario, there appears to be some sort of monarchy at CRPA. If the Gene team wants to see change and members still with CRPA want to make change but are reluctant to make waves, wouldn't that indicate that whoever is in charge has something to lose with any kind of change?

Your well thought out response kinda implicates the problems that so many would like to see resolved. I guess what i'm saying is that if so many people are for change, who exactly is holding this change up? Are they so powerful that people are afraid of these guys? If thats the case, i can see why the Gene team wanted to make this change so quickly. When you look at CRPA's financial spread sheet, it sure looks like quite a bit of misappropriation of funds. (for wanting the best for CA gun owners)

I firmly believe that there is a greed issue. If you stop the flow of money the hierarchy will be forced to bail out.

I look forward to see change and also to someday see in Gene's sig line, "donating to CGF over CRPA is wildly stupid, always give to CRPA"

pennys dad
05-18-2012, 10:45 PM
At least drink some good stuff neat - have you had Hanger One?

(Thanks for the core dump on the background info to the CRPA issues)

--Neill

I like the Grey Goose myself.

ivanimal
05-18-2012, 11:07 PM
Yeah, but I'm lazy and want my Vodka now. ;)

Kes, I read some pretty mean spirited posts from Oaklander in this thread. Although he self deleted them they were and are bannable. I gave him some time off to think about what was said and how it was said. I know you would not sit him down as you are too close in on this matter.



It matters not how often one apologizes, when it never seems to be sincere.

Ivan

monk
05-18-2012, 11:09 PM
Jack and coke.... yea I'm a pansy :p

freonr22
05-18-2012, 11:30 PM
Kes, ALL of you have and are doing magnificent things. I have never met you, but in chara hters on my screen, you have always seemed ubiased. My hope is a reunification of the team to get refocused on the tasks at hand.

Mstrty
05-18-2012, 11:50 PM
It matters not how often one apologizes, when it never seems to be sincere.

Ivan

What? I was always taught you could say anything you want as long as you say it with a smile. :D

jdoane9724
05-18-2012, 11:51 PM
OMG! That is what I tell myself all the time!

Just kidding!!!
<snipped for brevity>

A single phone call can start, or stop a project. And some of you saw what happened when someone dropped a dime on a legal function.

Oaklander,

Some of us are new enough to not understand this reference. Are details available?

Thanks

blakdawg
05-18-2012, 11:57 PM
Kes, I read some pretty mean spirited posts from Oaklander in this thread. Although he self deleted them they were and are bannable. I gave him some time off to think about what was said and how it was said. I know you would not sit him down as you are too close in on this matter.


This is indefensible. There's a lot of good stuff happening here on CGN but when we've got adults giving each other timeouts like preschoolers (especially when the alleged wrongdoer has apologized and acted to correct their errors) it's ridiculous.

I've been trying to figure out how the people who have remained on the CRPA board have done so despite the CRPA's bad behavior, even remaining silent in the face of the CRPA's ineptitude and bad faith.

And I'm not able to watch this sort of crap go on without saying something. It's disgusting to watch messages and threads disappear without explanation or with lame excuses and I'm not going to pretend that it's reasonable or honorable.

I don't think Oak's comments earlier today were among his best work. A lot of the participants in this thread (and the wider CRPA dispute) aren't necessarily experiencing their finest hour, but this sort of censorship and suppression of unacceptable ideas is shameful and disgusting.

jdoane9724
05-19-2012, 12:10 AM
Kes,

Yes, thank you for the background. This helps round out the picture, as I had been made part of CRPA through a five-year membership with the NRA. My CRPA has lapsed due to financial constraints, and I was wondering if this was a good thing. While the jury is still out, at least I have a better idea of the underlying story.

John

jdberger
05-19-2012, 12:33 AM
CGN/C3 lost a long term and well respected and liked member when she and her husband were verbally attacked in a CRPA thread because she did not vote for Gene's by-laws changes.
After years of contributions to this community she was driven out.


This breaks my heart. Liz and Rod are (were) invaluable members of this community. They're folks who "show up". Folks who were thrilled to get up early on days most of us take to rest, to meet and greet and glad-hand and just generally welcome people into our movement.

I'm heartbroken. And I'm pissed off that they were treated the way that they were.

This is indefensible. There's a lot of good stuff happening here on CGN but when we've got adults giving each other timeouts like preschoolers (especially when the alleged wrongdoer has apologized and acted to correct their errors) it's ridiculous.

Oak went too far. He realized it. He'll get over the time-out.

I've been trying to figure out how the people who have remained on the CRPA board have done so despite the CRPA's bad behavior, even remaining silent in the face of the CRPA's ineptitude and bad faith.

They're good people with the best of intentions. I may disagree with them about tactics (and strategy) - but their hearts are in the right places.

And I'm not able to watch this sort of crap go on without saying something. It's disgusting to watch messages and threads disappear without explanation or with lame excuses and I'm not going to pretend that it's reasonable or honorable.

Fair. But the intercinine fighting benefits no-one. Kill it. Kill the traces, too.

I don't think Oak's comments earlier today were among his best work. A lot of the participants in this thread (and the wider CRPA dispute) aren't necessarily experiencing their finest hour, but this sort of censorship and suppression of unacceptable ideas is shameful and disgusting.

Kevin knew what he was doing. He's man enough to admit he made an error (something about being a dick). He'll be fine. Kevin has always been an amazing asset to our movement. I've no doubt he'll continue to help drive us forward.

kcbrown
05-19-2012, 12:51 AM
Your well thought out response kinda implicates the problems that so many would like to see resolved. I guess what i'm saying is that if so many people are for change, who exactly is holding this change up? Are they so powerful that people are afraid of these guys? If thats the case, i can see why the Gene team wanted to make this change so quickly. When you look at CRPA's financial spread sheet, it sure looks like quite a bit of misappropriation of funds. (for wanting the best for CA gun owners)


My understanding is that the primary impediment to change is the way the bylaws themselves are written. They appear to be written in such a way that the executive leadership essentially cannot be forcibly removed or replaced by the membership or those who answer to the membership. I expect that is not an accident. A leadership that cannot be forcibly removed thusly is a leadership that can do as it pleases without significant consequence to itself. From where I stand, that appears to be exactly what's happening here, and it is deeply harmful to CRPA as an organization and its membership in the end.

This is why there was an effort to change the bylaws: to make the leadership answerable to the membership. That effort failed.


Inasmuch as most of us are highly independent people, it follows that we each must make up our own minds about what course of action is best for the fight for our right to keep and bear arms and for our liberty in general. Some, such as Kes, have decided that staying on the board serves that goal best. Most, such as Gene, Bill, Kevin, etc., have decided that resigning serves that goal best. As long as the goal of each is truly the same (to restore and strengthen our RKBA and our liberty), I cannot truly fault any of them, even when I may disagree with them.

In any case, the purpose of SaveCRPA appears to be to shed light on the true nature of CRPA itself. The light of truth is always preferred to the shadows of deceit. We've seen that countless times elsewhere. I see no reason to believe that the CRPA situation is any exception.

SWalt
05-19-2012, 2:13 AM
"When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers"

"There are many ways to skin a cat"

Back to the C&D....

The 2 aren't similar. The SaveCRPA bear is a grizzly, by the hump on its back. Its strong, virulent and looks like it doesn't take much crap. Its walking on green grass, a sign of health and vitality. Spring comes to mind, new and fresh. The CRPA bear looks kinda wimpy, not a grizzly. Circus bear perhaps? Zoo maybe? They are different from each other.

As someone whos known of CRPA all his life and is a member, it is time to change. What ever the modus operandi that worked when gun owners were fighting a defensive war 20, 30, 50, 75+ yrs ago doesn't work today. Today the offensive has been taken by individuals and groups and the CRPA needs to be a part of it. There is no reason it can't do both, gun civil rights and shooting sports. Business reinvent themselves all the time to keep relevant, its normal and natural. Whether working from within or from without, CRPA needs to take that step and move forward. Like many have said, if they don't move forward, they may just find themselves fading away.

My $0.02

pennys dad
05-19-2012, 7:22 AM
I've been trying to figure out how the people who have remained on the CRPA board have done so despite the CRPA's bad behavior, even remaining silent in the face of the CRPA's ineptitude and bad faith.


Hope, focus and perseverance in the face of difficulty, pretty simple and pretty straight forward

pennys dad
05-19-2012, 7:25 AM
My understanding is that the primary impediment to change is the way the bylaws themselves are written. They appear to be written in such a way that the executive leadership essentially cannot be forcibly removed or replaced by the membership or those who answer to the membership. I expect that is not an accident. A leadership that cannot be forcibly removed thusly is a leadership that can do as it pleases without significant consequence to itself. From where I stand, that appears to be exactly what's happening here, and it is deeply harmful to CRPA as an organization and its membership in the end.

This is why there was an effort to change the bylaws: to make the leadership answerable to the membership. That effort failed.


Inasmuch as most of us are highly independent people, it follows that we each must make up our own minds about what course of action is best for the fight for our right to keep and bear arms and for our liberty in general. Some, such as Kes, have decided that staying on the board serves that goal best. Most, such as Gene, Bill, Kevin, etc., have decided that resigning serves that goal best. As long as the goal of each is truly the same (to restore and strengthen our RKBA and our liberty), I cannot truly fault any of them, even when I may disagree with them.

In any case, the purpose of SaveCRPA appears to be to shed light on the true nature of CRPA itself. The light of truth is always preferred to the shadows of deceit. We've seen that countless times elsewhere. I see no reason to believe that the CRPA situation is any exception.

Good thoughts, Thank you

NoJoke
05-19-2012, 7:59 AM
Mainly spurred by the last reason several members got themselves on the CRPA Board of Directors

Gene, Brett and Bill on the Board and others outside of the Board helped to push corrective efforts through removing the problem

This lead to an effort to create a more open election process

Gene and Brett were not reappointed to the CRPA Board of Directors

This set in motion much of the drama and infighting

Great pressure was brought to bear on those of us who chose not to resign, a very small portion of which you've seen in this thread.

.

clip
I dunno, from the outside it would appear that the Board simply isn't interested in playing....at all.
If membership could simply vote on how they want their organization to move - that would remove ALL drama and truly represent the group.

In my profession, the simple solution tends to be the right solution....seems to apply here too.

edwardm
05-19-2012, 8:25 AM
Kes, I read some pretty mean spirited posts from Oaklander in this thread. Although he self deleted them they were and are bannable. I gave him some time off to think about what was said and how it was said. I know you would not sit him down as you are too close in on this matter.



It matters not how often one apologizes, when it never seems to be sincere.

Ivan

I completely *disagree* with your doing this.

eaglemike
05-19-2012, 8:44 AM
Kes,
In your relating of the background, did you forget to mention the president's speech at the annual dinner/meeting? His manner reminds me of a chicago type thug. Not a good thing. I learned years ago that people with that mindset cannot be worked with.

Given the current electoral and appointment process, how do you expect to see any change????? How can accountability and transparency be accomplished? This CRPA president reminds me of Eric Holder and Rohm Emanuel.

Ivan, I think I read all of Kevin's posting before deletion. While they were not his best work, I didn't see a ban-worthy offense. I know I'm not a moderator on this board, or privy to the inner workings. I think that particular action was a mistake......

pennys dad
05-19-2012, 8:58 AM
Kes,

Given the current electoral and appointment process, how do you expect to see any change????? How can accountability and transparency be accomplished? This CRPA president reminds me of Eric Holder and Rohm Emanuel.



It isnt an expectation of change it is an application of perseverance in spite of difficulties, obstacles and discouragement. It is a belief that there is more then one road to the finish line; but it is also not Blind Hope, as a team within the CRPA we are working towards change.

bruceflinch
05-19-2012, 9:03 AM
I completely *disagree* with your doing this.

I don't.
I think it was a good idea for that & for Kes to write a summary. We need cooler heads to prevail.

FatCity67
05-19-2012, 9:07 AM
Neat little civics lesson being played out before our eyes.


In the realm of grip sites and their viability here is one I have been following since the late 90's. Seems to have survived many legal challenges.

http://royaldutchshellplc.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royaldutchshellplc.com

jj805
05-19-2012, 9:20 AM
Kes, I read some pretty mean spirited posts from Oaklander in this thread. Although he self deleted them they were and are bannable. I gave him some time off to think about what was said and how it was said. I know you would not sit him down as you are too close in on this matter.



It matters not how often one apologizes, when it never seems to be sincere.

Ivan

I also disagree. We all knew that this thread was going to be emotionally charged from the start. Yes, some of the things he said were "bannable", however, I think that in the context of this thread you have to expect emotions to run deep. I for one like to see the passion all of you have, and wouldn't expect anything different when emotions get stirred up.

The important thing to remember here is that the destination is what is important, not the path.

eaglemike
05-19-2012, 9:40 AM
It isnt an expectation of change it is an application of perseverance in spite of difficulties, obstacles and discouragement. It is a belief that there is more then one road to the finish line; but it is also not Blind Hope, as a team within the CRPA we are working towards change.
Okay, thanks!

Is there a real plan in place to fix the problems in the electoral/appointment process??? If there isn't a plan in place, why?

How many years do you think it will be before the CRPA becomes an effective 2A advocate? (I don't need to hear about the competition stuff. BTW, in the overall picture, ti's really small scale. If we don't protect and reclaim our rights, competition goes away)

Thanks!

Californio
05-19-2012, 9:40 AM
This reminds me of Neville Chamberlain vs Winston Churchill.

History teaches us when dealing with Fascists, which is really what the CRPA inner circle is, since they will not allow Democracy, without a bloody War.

Kestryll, Pennys Dad, etal as Noble as your Position is, you are taking the Chamberlain diplomatic position. Reality is these People are not going to budge they said it at the meeting, they said it in their cease and desist letter, their current President has said so over the years on this Forum.

They are going to use all the monies of the CRPA to scorch the earth in their attempt to keep and maintain power, if that is not the definition of Fascism, what is.

I respect your Noble Indentions and hard work but I doubt it will have any affect on the Inner Circle. The other Board Members that you hope to influence means nothing because this organization is not controlled by their vote or influence.

Diplomatic gestures do not work unless you are dealing within the framework of a Democracy. The Inner Circle has become vested in Itself.

Chamberlain was a broken man over his attempts to play Diplomate. He was not able to understand the futility of his actions until it was too late and Churchill had to pick up the pieces.

Something for you to think about, as an outside observer this is what is see.

pennys dad
05-19-2012, 9:46 AM
Okay, thanks!

Is there a real plan in place to fix the problems in the electoral/appointment process??? If there isn't a plan in place, why?

How many years do you think it will be before the CRPA becomes an effective 2A advocate? (I don't need to hear about the competition stuff. BTW, in the overall picture, ti's really small scale. If we don't protect and reclaim our rights, competition goes away)

Thanks!

We are negotiating and we do have milestones we are working towards

On the note of competition being small scale, do you intend to fight to maintain and regain what we have lost in California with the crowd here in Calguns?
I would suggest that the competition is not small but rather large, the message needs to be spread through out our states various shooting communities, many of which exist in silo's. We need to bring awareness to the cause to everyone so we can grow our ranks. This cannot be a limited size team this has to be a team that grows exponentially, constantly and receiving the same common message. So I would suggest that competition is one platform we need to exercise and is significant

Check your PM's in a minute

greasemonkey
05-19-2012, 10:03 AM
If your post was a picture, it'd involve a hammer-head squarely striking a nail-head.


This reminds me of Neville Chamberlain vs Winston Churchill.

History teaches us when dealing with Fascists, which is really what the CRPA inner circle is, since they will not allow Democracy, without a bloody War.

Kestryll, Pennys Dad, etal as Noble as your Position is, you are taking the Chamberlain diplomatic position. Reality is these People are not going to budge they said it at the meeting, they said it in their cease and desist letter, their current President has said so over the years on this Forum.

They are going to use all the monies of the CRPA to scorch the earth in their attempt to keep and maintain power, if that is not the definition of Fascism, what is.

I respect your Noble Indentions and hard work but I doubt it will have any affect on the Inner Circle. The other Board Members that you hope to influence means nothing because this organization is not controlled by their vote or influence.

Diplomatic gestures do not work unless you are dealing within the framework of a Democracy. The Inner Circle has become vested in Itself.

Chamberlain was a broken man over his attempts to play Diplomate. He was not able to understand the futility of his actions until it was too late and Churchill had to pick up the pieces.

Something for you to think about, as an outside observer this is what is see.

Soldier415
05-19-2012, 10:05 AM
This place and the 2A movement in CA really have gone to hell in a handbasket.

FatCity67
05-19-2012, 10:09 AM
This place and the 2A movement in CA really have gone to hell in a handbasket.


Change is inevitable within any organization or organism.

pennys dad
05-19-2012, 10:28 AM
This reminds me of Neville Chamberlain vs Winston Churchill.

History teaches us when dealing with Fascists, which is really what the CRPA inner circle is, since they will not allow Democracy, without a bloody War.

Kestryll, Pennys Dad, etal as Noble as your Position is, you are taking the Chamberlain diplomatic position. Reality is these People are not going to budge they said it at the meeting, they said it in their cease and desist letter, their current President has said so over the years on this Forum.

They are going to use all the monies of the CRPA to scorch the earth in their attempt to keep and maintain power, if that is not the definition of Fascism, what is.

I respect your Noble Indentions and hard work but I doubt it will have any affect on the Inner Circle. The other Board Members that you hope to influence means nothing because this organization is not controlled by their vote or influence.

Diplomatic gestures do not work unless you are dealing within the framework of a Democracy. The Inner Circle has become vested in Itself.

Chamberlain was a broken man over his attempts to play Diplomate. He was not able to understand the futility of his actions until it was too late and Churchill had to pick up the pieces.

Something for you to think about, as an outside observer this is what is see.

Majority rule is often listed as a characteristic of democracy. However, it is also possible for a minority to be oppressed by a "tyranny of the majority" in the absence of governmental or constitutional protections of individual or group rights. An essential part of an "ideal" representative democracy is competitive elections that are fair both substantively and procedurally.... It has also been suggested that a basic feature of democracy is the capacity of individuals to participate freely and fully in the life of their society. With its emphasis on notions of social contract and the collective will of the people, democracy can also be characterized as a form of political collectivism because it is defined as a form of government in which all adult citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

We have chosen to continue our fight from within to achieve the desired reform. Although we are the minority it does not mean we should stop, and since our desired change is the same as that of the majority then it is still a common cause. Remember democracy is about each person participating freely.

pennys dad
05-19-2012, 10:32 AM
This place and the 2A movement in CA really have gone to hell in a handbasket.

I would suggest you are seeing the pains of change and ownership, something worth achieving is never easy and is never without pain. Preserve instead, in the face of change.

Kestryll
05-19-2012, 10:51 AM
Kes,
In your relating of the background, did you forget to mention the president's speech at the annual dinner/meeting?

No, given that the video of that speech has been posted here, on facebook and elsewhere I'm pretty sure everyone reading this is aware of it or can find it.
Since it was a summarized version, because I'm not a good typist, I didn't go in to great detail but did mention it was part of the February meeting and weekend:
The last CRPA Board meeting was an unpleasant affair with adherents of several 'sides' in opposition to each other and some ill chosen actions were taken and and words said.

There are so many points that could be expounded on but the idea was to give people an overview of what had happened.