PDA

View Full Version : SOLIDARITY; AND WHY WE HUNT


Meplat
05-13-2012, 8:56 PM
Man is a natural predator, but he is the kindest predator. True ethics in hunting have little to do with how hard it is to make the kill. It is all about how humanely one can make the kill. Man is a part of nature not apart from it. Most human hunters, whether they can articulate it clearly or not, hunt to maintain their connection with the natural world. We do it to stay grounded in what we are. We do not hunt to kill. We kill to have hunted. It is actually a deep and spiritual subject, and quite hard to articulate.

The antis distort hunting into something it is not. Just as they distort gun ownership into something it is not. They use and define the term sport hunting to depict killing for the sheer pleasure of the act; like they use and define the term assault rifle to mean a weapon only useful for committing assault. Nothing could be less truthful in both cases. Both are useful to deceive and persuade those who do not understand the true nature of the underlying subject matter.

These people are throwing a lot of causes against the wall and seeing what sticks the best; which is more likely to isolate a group so they can move in and crush them. There is actually also a movement to attack sport fishing. They already have crushed trappers and Lion hunters. They will pick off the low hanging fruit first, but make no mistake; they are coming for us all.

taperxz
05-13-2012, 8:57 PM
Poor animals.

Meplat
05-13-2012, 9:06 PM
Everything dies. Death by human hunter is the easiest death that can be expected in the wild.

taperxz
05-13-2012, 9:33 PM
Everything dies. Death by human hunter is the easiest death that can be expected in the wild.

That's not always true..

bigmike82
05-13-2012, 9:37 PM
"That's not always true..."
Obviously, but by far and large, it is.

Look at how lions take down wildebeasts...zebras...etc. Natural predators don't always wait for the prey to die before they start eating.

Yeah, we have people who hunt inhumanely, but they're shunned and criticized by other hunters and society in general (as they should be).

taperxz
05-13-2012, 9:44 PM
"That's not always true..."
Obviously, but by far and large, it is.

Look at how lions take down wildebeasts...zebras...etc. Natural predators don't always wait for the prey to die before they start eating.

Yeah, we have people who hunt inhumanely, but they're shunned and criticized by other hunters and society in general (as they should be).

Not everyone makes a clean shot. Ever crip waterfowl? Death is not a pretty business. Gut shot deer running for over a hundred yards?

Meplat
05-13-2012, 11:07 PM
That's not always true..

You are correct. But nothing is absolute. The chances are over a million to one that it will be so. And of those botched up kills an infinitesimal number are intentional.

bubbapug1
05-13-2012, 11:37 PM
It's not like we exterminated the buffalo....out of 30,000,000 we left 3000...but wasted not one ounce of meat in the process.

Man is the kindest predator but also the most violent and unrelenting one. Not only will he kill you at your prime, but he wants to take your habitat too.

I have wounded world class fish and deer...it happens.

I'll admit it, I hunt and fish for pleasure and thrill as I can afford to buy food at Von's...tell me you hunt and fish for subsistance and I laugh at you, not with you.

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr177/bubbapug1/greggs61poundwhite.jpg

scarville
05-14-2012, 7:07 AM
That's not always true..

Here is a video that upset more than a few hunters I know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVlrSVsAdpI

OTOH, I imagine this pig didn't much enjoy his dying.

http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_jun2007/HogHunting.jpg

taperxz
05-14-2012, 7:16 AM
Don't leave that post/video here. That video first of all was a canned hunt. The hog is domestic, THAT WAS NOT A WILD PIG, and the hunter was on his first hunt.

yellowfin
05-14-2012, 7:26 AM
I highly recommend reading "Girl Hunter" by Georgia Pellegrini for some refreshing thought on this subject. She addresses it in a very fun, very thoughtful manner and even offers some great recipes to go along with it.

bigmike82
05-14-2012, 2:31 PM
"THAT WAS NOT A WILD PIG, and the hunter was on his first hunt."
No, leave it all over that place. That hunter and his buddy deserve all the public shaming they've gotten and then some.

See, that's difference between humans and animals. A lion will eat you from the stomach and not feel bad about it, nor will the other lions yell at him for it. Videos that show cruelty or incompetence, however, will get criticized by a LOT of people.

njineermike
05-14-2012, 2:39 PM
I'll admit it, I hunt and fish for pleasure and thrill as I can afford to buy food at Von's...tell me you hunt and fish for subsistance and I laugh at you, not with you.



Just because you can afford to buy food and hunt for the pleasure of it, saying others do not hunt for the food paints you as an opionated jerk.

taperxz
05-14-2012, 2:41 PM
"THAT WAS NOT A WILD PIG, and the hunter was on his first hunt."
No, leave it all over that place. That hunter and his buddy deserve all the public shaming they've gotten and then some.

See, that's difference between humans and animals. A lion will eat you from the stomach and not feel bad about it, nor will the other lions yell at him for it. Videos that show cruelty or incompetence, however, will get criticized by a LOT of people.

My point was that wasn't really a hunt. That pig was released upon arrival of the guests and they they go find the farm animal. They didn't even need a hunting license for that hunt. It was pretty funny how the guy was afraid to walk up to the pig and just shoot it in the base of the skull. Just as i do with my farm animals.

taperxz
05-14-2012, 2:44 PM
Just because you can afford to buy food and hunt for the pleasure of it, saying others do not hunt for the food paints you as an opionated jerk.

PLEEEZ!!! Unless you can harvest game from your back yard, most hunters probably pay close to $300 per pound of edible meat when they go hunting!

license, tags, ammo, gear and clothing, GASOLINE!, lodging or equipment. Hunting is NOT a poor mans sport.

Meplat
05-14-2012, 2:47 PM
It's not like we exterminated the buffalo....out of 30,000,000 we left 3000...but wasted not one ounce of meat in the process.

Man is the kindest predator but also the most violent and unrelenting one. Not only will he kill you at your prime, but he wants to take your habitat too.

I have wounded world class fish and deer...it happens.

I'll admit it, I hunt and fish for pleasure and thrill as I can afford to buy food at Von's...tell me you hunt and fish for subsistance and I laugh at you, not with you.

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr177/bubbapug1/greggs61poundwhite.jpg

I explained why I hunt. I invite you to take the time to really examine why you hunt and fish. Think hard and deep. Ask from where comes that whispering within. You may discover emotions and motivations you had not yet recognized. I never mentioned subsistence hunting, though I have at times had to do that, not now.

You are absolutely right about the habitat. Without the breadbasket of America, the Great Plains, the world population would be decimated. Who among us wants to be the first to go? But the buffalo were not completely wiped out; even in the 1800ís the value of a species was recognized.

BTW: Nice fish!

Tanner68
05-14-2012, 2:50 PM
I like the OPs first paragraph. Most of that is lost on non-hunters.

njineermike
05-14-2012, 2:58 PM
PLEEEZ!!! Unless you can harvest game from your back yard, most hunters probably pay close to $300 per pound of edible meat when they go hunting!

license, tags, ammo, gear and clothing, GASOLINE!, lodging or equipment. Hunting is NOT a poor mans sport.

Where I was raised you DO hunt out of your back yard and a deer tag is available at the local gas station for $20. All of the meat in our freezers was either shot in the field or off the farm. It's only a rich mans game in this turd of a state.

taperxz
05-14-2012, 3:04 PM
Where I was raised you DO hunt out of your back yard and a deer tag is available at the local gas station for $20. All of the meat in our freezers was either shot in the field or off the farm. It's only a rich mans game in this turd of a state.

AND i continue to harvest game off my ranch but 99% even in other states can not say they hunt to supply their family, food for the winter because its economical. Its not just California!

Meplat
05-14-2012, 3:04 PM
PLEEEZ!!! Unless you can harvest game from your back yard, most hunters probably pay close to $300 per pound of edible meat when they go hunting!

license, tags, ammo, gear and clothing, GASOLINE!, lodging or equipment. Hunting is NOT a poor mans sport.

Unless your back yard is in the wild. One of the glitches of this forum is the huge number of metro people who have no understanding of life beyond the sidewalks. I do not have to now, but I once had to hunt to provide for my family. It was at the same time one of the most impoverished and happiest times of my life. I might not have had to do it if I had wanted to accept public assistance, but I refused to do that.

I concede that your point is the norm. But subsistence hunting is practiced by a significant number of rural people. My original post was not about subsistence hunting. Hunting does not have to be for survival to be moral or ethical.

Meplat
05-14-2012, 3:07 PM
I like the OPs first paragraph. Most of that is lost on non-hunters.

Thank you.

taperxz
05-14-2012, 3:11 PM
Unless your back yard is in the wild. One of the glitches of this forum is the huge number of metro people who have no understanding of life beyond the sidewalks. I do not have to now, but I once had to hunt to provide for my family. It was at the same time one of the most impoverished and happiest times of my life. I might not have had to do it if I had wanted to accept public assistance, but I refused to do that.

I concede that your point is the norm. But subsistence hunting is practiced by a significant number of rural people. My original post was not about subsistence hunting. Hunting does not have to be for survival to be moral or ethical.

I am fortunate! I hunt my own place. I loved your first paragraph but disagree with the kindness we have in death. Bow hunting can be pretty brutal, Shot guns are not stun guns. Well, sometimes you stone em any way:D Not all shots are perfect. I HATE when they're not!!! It sucks!

I do agree that true hunters have a higher degree of ethics and sportsmanship than most. I have also mentioned to some of the gun world that we are really the only group of gun owners that actually use our guns to actually take a life as opposed to waiting for the zombies:TFH:

451040
05-14-2012, 3:11 PM
I don't currently hunt but I do believe that citizens should have access to sustainable hunting opportunities whatever their motivation.



Hunting is NOT a poor mans sport.

True, it is mostly reserved for holier-than-thou elitists.

taperxz
05-14-2012, 3:14 PM
I don't currently hunt but I do believe that citizens should have access to sustainable hunting opportunities whatever their motivation.





True, it is mostly reserved for holier-than-thou elitists.

LOL! Calguns, one extreme to the other:rolleyes:

Thats not true either. If you can pull a hundred dollar bill out of your wallet you can hunt big game. $50 for birds. Traveling cost all depend on the hunters motivation to go places and find the game.

451040
05-14-2012, 3:23 PM
Thats not true either. If you can pull a hundred dollar bill out of your wallet you can hunt big game. $50 for birds. Traveling cost all depend on the hunters motivation to go places and find the game.

My post wasn't referring to the financial considerations. BTW, you are the one who posted:

... most hunters probably pay close to $300 per pound of edible meat when they go hunting!

license, tags, ammo, gear and clothing, GASOLINE!, lodging or equipment. Hunting is NOT a poor mans sport.

LOL! Calguns, one extreme to the other:rolleyes:

njineermike
05-14-2012, 3:24 PM
AND i continue to harvest game off my ranch but 99% even in other states can not say they hunt to supply their family, food for the winter because its economical. Its not just California!

Pulling an inaccurrate number from it's rectal impaction aside, the vast majority of hunters in those "other states" you seem to feel you are superior to can hunt within a few minutes drive of home, often on state or federally owned land that encourages hunting, have low cost for game tags, and environment that does not discourage the taking of game, as is the case here. When beef is over $4 a pound, and a deer tag I can fill half an hour from my house costs under $25, you do the math.

taperxz
05-14-2012, 3:30 PM
Pulling an inaccurrate number from it's rectal impaction aside, the vast majority of hunters in those "other states" you seem to feel you are superior to can hunt within a few minutes drive of home, often on state or federally owned land that encourages hunting, have low cost for game tags, and environment that does not discourage the taking of game, as is the case here. When beef is over $4 a pound, and a deer tag I can fill half an hour from my house costs under $25, you do the math.

Your reading comprehension is terrible on this topic!

PLEEEZ!!! Unless you can harvest game from your back yard, most hunters probably pay close to $300 per pound of edible meat when they go hunting!

license, tags, ammo, gear and clothing, GASOLINE!, lodging or equipment. Hunting is NOT a poor mans sport.

njineermike
05-14-2012, 3:33 PM
Your reading comprehension is terrible on this topic!

Actually, it's quite good. Your math skills, however, are lacking. Do you read the nonsense you post?

taperxz
05-14-2012, 3:36 PM
Actually, it's quite good. Your math skills, however, are lacking. Do you read the nonsense you post?

Let me ask you this, If the cities have the most people living there, and they hunt, how do they do it? If you think its nonsense prove it!

Goosebrown
05-14-2012, 3:41 PM
"That's not always true..."
Obviously, but by far and large, it is.

The only thing quicker would them walking into a guillotine by accident... I hate when that happens...

taperxz
05-14-2012, 3:48 PM
Math skills OH OK.

The AVERAGE hunter success rate is 12.5% on deer. Zones fluctuate!

To make this easy. If a hunter kills one buck every five years, and buys one license and one tag a year, thats $350 in license and tag fees (5 years worth) Buys lets say 5 boxes of ammo for hunting and sighting in the rifle, $100, Hunts 4 times a year at 100 miles or so away in an average pick up, $300. Buys a couple thousand dollars in camping equipment, or stays in a lodge $250 x 4 stays for 3-4 days for 5 years $1250. And the list goes on!!!!

OH and BTW! Land in CA isn't exactly cheap you know! I have to pay for my land so in essence i probably pay more for my deer meat than someone who doesn't own land.

But i guess your fuzzy math doesn't account for the fact that life is expense either way you look at it. Even when i slaughter my own steer i lose money!

njineermike
05-14-2012, 3:58 PM
Let me ask you this, If the cities have the most people living there, and they hunt, how do they do it? If you think its nonsense prove it!

Are you really this dense or it it just an act?

They do it the same way everybody else does it, it's just a lot cheaper there. States I've lived and hunted in:

15 Indiana public hunting areas within 30-40 minutes of downtown Indianapolis: http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/5427.htm

Mississippi wildlife areas close to Jackson: http://home.mdwfp.com/WMA/WMADefault.aspx

Georgia: http://www.georgiaoutdoors.com/hunting/WMAmaps.asp

Arkansas: http://www.agfc.com/hunting/Pages/wmaList.aspx

Tennessee, some within half an hour to Nashville: http://www.tn.gov/twra/gis/WMA_Home.html

Colorado, some within an hours drive from Denver: http://ndismaps.nrel.colostate.edu/huntingatlas/

Wyoming: http://gf.state.wy.us/plpwhmprogram/frmHunterManagementHome.aspx

Illinois, within an hour of Chicago: http://dnr.state.il.us/lands/landmgt/hunter_fact_sheet/R2hfs/index.htm

I could go on and on....

taperxz
05-14-2012, 4:08 PM
Are you really this dense or it it just an act?

They do it the same way everybody else does it, it's just a lot cheaper there. States I've lived and hunted in:


I could go on and on....

Personal attacks ehh:rolleyes:

Your forgetting one thing. This is CA!! Why don't you post out of state prices and two, CA is a huge state, Someone wanting to get into real deer hunting from socal may have to drive 9 hours.

I hunt Canada! The license is cheap not the air fare, lodging, prep to bring the animal back. You leave to much stuff out.

Why won't you even acknowledge that land in CA is expensive?

taperxz
05-14-2012, 4:11 PM
Regardless of all the banter here by some. This should at least add to the fact the hunters are cough cough, passionate about hunting if not stupid crazy. I don't think i would give up my wife for hunting, but it would be close and some actually have.

njineermike
05-14-2012, 4:17 PM
Math skills OH OK.

The AVERAGE hunter success rate is 12.5% on deer. Zones fluctuate!

To make this easy. If a hunter kills one buck every five years, and buys one license and one tag a year, thats $350 in license and tag fees (5 years worth) Buys lets say 5 boxes of ammo for hunting and sighting in the rifle, $100, Hunts 4 times a year at 100 miles or so away in an average pick up, $300. Buys a couple thousand dollars in camping equipment, or stays in a lodge $250 x 4 stays for 3-4 days for 5 years $1250. And the list goes on!!!!

OH and BTW! Land in CA isn't exactly cheap you know! I have to pay for my land so in essence i probably pay more for my deer meat than someone who doesn't own land.

But i guess your fuzzy math doesn't account for the fact that life is expense either way you look at it. Even when i slaughter my own steer i lose money!

Tennessee had a [167,711 (https://hfwa.centraltechnology.net/TNHFInternetHarvest/app/harvestReportSearch.do) deer harvested last year and had nearly 80% kill rate (http://www.tn.gov/twra/deermain.html) on tags. This is situation normal in the entire rest of the country.

Indiana: http://www.gameandfishmag.com/2011/10/04/2011-indiana-deer-outlook-part-1-finding-your-deer/

Kentucky: http://fw.ky.gov/harvest/deerharvest.asp

Louisiana didn't even mandate TAGS until this year. The deer and game harvest rates in most other states outpaces the rates in this state by obscene margins.

Fjold
05-14-2012, 4:17 PM
PLEEEZ!!! Unless you can harvest game from your back yard, most hunters probably pay close to $300 per pound of edible meat when they go hunting!

license, tags, ammo, gear and clothing, GASOLINE!, lodging or equipment. Hunting is NOT a poor mans sport.

I paid close to $10,000 per pound for the meat that I ate on my cape buffalo. Of course the native villagers there got the other 1500 lbs or so for free.

taperxz
05-14-2012, 4:19 PM
I paid close to $10,000 per pound for the meat that I ate on my cape buffalo. Of course the native villagers there got the other 1500 lbs or so for free.

I bet you did!! LOL Again we do it cause "we ain't right" I sure as heck glad im not an avid golfer:rolleyes: They're all divorced and poor LOL

taperxz
05-14-2012, 4:26 PM
Tennessee had a [167,711 (https://hfwa.centraltechnology.net/TNHFInternetHarvest/app/harvestReportSearch.do) deer harvested last year and had nearly 80% kill rate (http://www.tn.gov/twra/deermain.html) on tags. This is situation normal in the entire rest of the country.

Indiana: http://www.gameandfishmag.com/2011/10/04/2011-indiana-deer-outlook-part-1-finding-your-deer/

Kentucky: http://fw.ky.gov/harvest/deerharvest.asp

Louisiana didn't even mandate TAGS until this year. The deer and game harvest rates in most other states outpaces the rates in this state by obscene margins.

REALLY? If you take CA as a whole state well, ya, sure, SOCAL is not a deer friendly environment. Thats why we are talking averages. I like to see a state that harvests more waterfowl? We are at the tops of the average for Turkey and ducks, quail, chuckar and dove. NORCAL has great deer hunting! I get two bucks almost every year. HMMMM I wonder how the Salmon fishing is in Kentucky??

Besides your argument has no bearing here. We are talking CA. Not Kentucky where the population is WHAT???? Which equals more rural area for more deer and big game.

I should also add that CA boasts one of the best bear populations in the country. This state takes between 1800 and 2000 bears annually. How many bears do they kill in the states you listed?

njineermike
05-14-2012, 4:32 PM
Personal attacks ehh:rolleyes:

Your forgetting one thing. This is CA!! Why don't you post out of state prices and two, CA is a huge state, Someone wanting to get into real deer hunting from socal may have to drive 9 hours.

I hunt Canada! The license is cheap not the air fare, lodging, prep to bring the animal back. You leave to much stuff out.

Why won't you even acknowledge that land in CA is expensive?

Our entire "discussion" has been about how OTHER STATES with urban areas have easy access to hunting land for game, and how it's easy to get a tag to hunt and SIGNIFICANTLY less expensive than California.

Iowa was $26 last year. Kansas: $32.50, Virginia: $16, Washington: $42.90, Wisconsin: $24, Pennsylvania: $20.70. These are the resident costs for hunting deer in these respective states. They also have huge amounts of land in which to hunt.

The entire point is that land in CA is not just expensive, it's absolutely insane. Also, the fact that game is hunted for food almost everywhere else with ease and low cost.


Regardless of all the banter here by some. This should at least add to the fact the hunters are cough cough, passionate about hunting if not stupid crazy. I don't think i would give up my wife for hunting, but it would be close and some actually have.

To hunt in this state without being a landowner, you HAVE to be at least a little loose in the screws. It's also one of the major reasons I'm moving back east once my personal situations are resolved.

njineermike
05-14-2012, 4:34 PM
REALLY? If you take CA as a whole state well, ya, sure, SOCAL is not a deer friendly environment. Thats why we are talking averages. I like to see a state that harvests more waterfowl? We are at the tops of the average for Turkey and ducks, quail, chuckar and dove. NORCAL has great deer hunting! I get two bucks almost every year. HMMMM I wonder how the Salmon fishing is in Kentucky??

Besides your argument has no bearing here. We are talking CA. Not Kentucky where the population is WHAT???? Which equals more rural area for more deer and big game.

I should also add that CA boasts one of the best bear populations in the country. This state takes between 1800 and 2000 bears annually. How many bears do they kill in the states you listed?

The only person limiting this to California is you. You are the one pointing out nobody hunts for food, as it is too expensive. When the point that most other states have no issue with it was raised, I gladly pointed out which ones as you were the person requesting information.

taperxz
05-14-2012, 4:42 PM
Just because you can afford to buy food and hunt for the pleasure of it, saying others do not hunt for the food paints you as an opionated jerk.

PLEEEZ!!! Unless you can harvest game from your back yard, most hunters probably pay close to $300 per pound of edible meat when they go hunting!

license, tags, ammo, gear and clothing, GASOLINE!, lodging or equipment. Hunting is NOT a poor mans sport.

Where I was raised you DO hunt out of your back yard and a deer tag is available at the local gas station for $20. All of the meat in our freezers was either shot in the field or off the farm. It's only a rich mans game in this turd of a state.

AND i continue to harvest game off my ranch but 99% even in other states can not say they hunt to supply their family, food for the winter because its economical. Its not just California!

Our conversation started like this^^^ I was not state specific and you decided to hand pick states. You may be able to hand pick friendly states but i too can hand pick unfriendly hunting states. I was saying that CA is not alone you decided to pick states to pick and argument.

Not to mention you had a problem with another posters comments and decided to pick a debate with him and now me. If you want to leave CA after you fix your personal problems, dont let the door hit you in the rear. Some of us in CA have it just fine here for hunting.

Do you think any ole job in Kentucky will give you the funds to be able to do what FJOLD does every year in Africa? CA does have its advantages if you are smart enough to take advantage of them. Good luck with your hunting back east. Im sure you'll save a few bucks there on your license and tags:rolleyes:

taperxz
05-14-2012, 4:45 PM
The only person limiting this to California is you. You are the one pointing out nobody hunts for food, as it is too expensive. When the point that most other states have no issue with it was raised, I gladly pointed out which ones as you were the person requesting information.

Except for my one statement including other unfriendly states that do exist, only FJOLD talked about hunting anywhere but in CA.

This is a CA gun forum. Most here live in CA. To go to another state we would have to travel there, pay out of state license and tags and lodge there. Regardless how cheap it is there it would still be expensive for a CA resident to hunt there. I know i do it all the time.

taperxz
05-14-2012, 4:48 PM
Man is a natural predator, but he is the kindest predator. True ethics in hunting have little to do with how hard it is to make the kill. It is all about how humanely one can make the kill. Man is a part of nature not apart from it. Most human hunters, whether they can articulate it clearly or not, hunt to maintain their connection with the natural world. We do it to stay grounded in what we are. We do not hunt to kill. We kill to have hunted. It is actually a deep and sacred subject, and quite hard to articulate.

The antis distort hunting into something it is not. Just as they distort gun ownership into something it is not. They use and define the term sport hunting to depict killing for the sheer pleasure of the act; like they use and define the term assault rifle to mean a weapon only useful for committing assault. Nothing could be less truthful in both cases. Both are useful to deceive and persuade those who do not understand the true nature of the underlying subject matter.

These people are throwing a lot of causes against the wall and seeing what sticks the best; which is more likely to isolate a group so they can move in and crush them. There is actually also a movement to attack sport fishing. They already have crushed trappers and Lion hunters. They will pick off the low hanging fruit first, but make no mistake; they are coming for us all.

I think this would be a more appropriate place to continue the conversation.

See what you did Meplat? LOL:p:D

njineermike
05-14-2012, 4:48 PM
Our conversation started like this^^^ I was not state specific and you decided to hand pick states. You may be able to hand pick friendly states but i too can hand pick unfriendly hunting states. I was saying that CA is not alone you decided to pick states to pick and argument.

Not to mention you had a problem with another posters comments and decided to pick a debate with him and now me. If you want to leave CA after you fix your personal problems, dont let the door hit you in the rear. Some of us in CA have it just fine here for hunting.

Do you think any ole job in Kentucky will give you the funds to be able to do what FJOLD does every year in Africa? CA does have its advantages if you are smart enough to take advantage of them. Good luck with your hunting back east. Im sure you'll save a few bucks there on your license and tags:rolleyes:

You really do have problems with this whole "thinking" concept. Then again, you manage to read into most peoples' posts what isn't actually there, so maybe it's the mechanics of reading that you have issue with. Either way, if moving means jerkwads like you are in my rear-view mirror, I'll galdly leave.

taperxz
05-14-2012, 4:50 PM
You really do have problems with this whole "thinking" concept. Then again, you manage to read into most peoples' posts what isn't actually there, so maybe it's the mechanics of reading that you have issue with. Either way, if moving means jerkwads like you are in my rear-view mirror, I'll galdly leave.

Good luck to you. Wish you nothing but the best.:)

njineermike
05-14-2012, 4:51 PM
Good luck to you. Wish you nothing but the best.:)

Wish I could say likewise, but I avoid lying.

taperxz
05-14-2012, 4:53 PM
Man is a natural predator, but he is the kindest predator. True ethics in hunting have little to do with how hard it is to make the kill. It is all about how humanely one can make the kill. Man is a part of nature not apart from it. Most human hunters, whether they can articulate it clearly or not, hunt to maintain their connection with the natural world. We do it to stay grounded in what we are. We do not hunt to kill. We kill to have hunted. It is actually a deep and sacred subject, and quite hard to articulate.

The antis distort hunting into something it is not. Just as they distort gun ownership into something it is not. They use and define the term sport hunting to depict killing for the sheer pleasure of the act; like they use and define the term assault rifle to mean a weapon only useful for committing assault. Nothing could be less truthful in both cases. Both are useful to deceive and persuade those who do not understand the true nature of the underlying subject matter.

These people are throwing a lot of causes against the wall and seeing what sticks the best; which is more likely to isolate a group so they can move in and crush them. There is actually also a movement to attack sport fishing. They already have crushed trappers and Lion hunters. They will pick off the low hanging fruit first, but make no mistake; they are coming for us all.

Lets start this again and give the OP some credit from here on out.:)

Meplat
05-14-2012, 5:14 PM
I loved your first paragraph but disagree with the kindness we have in death. Bow hunting can be pretty brutal, Shot guns are not stun guns. Well, sometimes you stone em any way:D Not all shots are perfect. I HATE when they're not!!! It sucks!

And therein lays the point! Sometimes it turns your stomach, not? That is because you are human and you are not crazy. Wild predators have no empathy, sane humans do. I did not say that death was straight up kind; I said that death by human hunter was the kindest to be expected in the wild.

To understand this we must understand the alternatives. The nature shows never or rarely addresses an animal dyeing in the wild, except by human hand. What we call death by natural causes never happens in the wild. Bambi does not expire while lying in a comfy bed, surrounded by loved ones, and with a morphine drip inserted into his front leg to stop the pain. He is eaten alive from the outside in by predators or from the inside out by parasites. Alternatively he may be slowly ravaged by disease or become old and crippled enough that he will slowly starve, but will probably be taken by a wild predator first. Accidents do claim a few, but only a few. An animal with a broken leg will have no one to set it or any medication to stop the pain and will eventually die due to dehydration, hunger, or infection. Compared to these I would just as soon be shot.

Less than one in a million wild animals will hit the harvest lottery and be taken by human hunters.

Also the way modern beef, pork, and poultry are processed at modern factory slaughter houses is a crueler end than most game animals meet. You are just paying someone to not have to experience it.

I do agree that true hunters have a higher degree of ethics and sportsmanship than most. I have also mentioned to some of the gun world that we are really the only group of gun owners that actually use our guns to actually take a life as opposed to waiting for the zombies:TFH:

I have long believed that every youngster should have the opportunity to go hunting for medium or large game at the youngest practicable age. And they should, with help and direction, be required to take care of their own kill. I have seen very few newbies who could accomplish their first field dressing and keep their breakfast on board.

Any youngster who has seen what a high powered hunting rifle bullet will do to a mammal, and still OK with doing that to a human being, unless absolutely necessary, needs professional help.

BTW: taperxz, I know that you probably know this stuff, but there are those here that have never really thought about it and have been exposed to a lot of negative propaganda. I just chose your post to discuss because it has some reasonable teachable points. My object is to create better understanding between hunting and non-hunting gun users for our mutual survival.

taperxz
05-14-2012, 5:19 PM
BTW: taperxz, I know that you probably know this stuff, but there are those here that have never really thought about it and have been exposed to a lot of negative propaganda. I just chose your post to discuss because it has a lot of reasonable teachable points. My object is to create better understanding between hunting and non-hunting gun users for our mutual survival.
__________________

Yes i am well aware of that! I think you already knew my "poor animals" remark was tongue in cheek ;) BTW i also slaughter my own lamb, beef not so much even though i raise my own, to large to do it properly and not waste meat.

Meplat
05-14-2012, 5:59 PM
Where I was raised you DO hunt out of your back yard and a deer tag is available at the local gas station for $20. All of the meat in our freezers was either shot in the field or off the farm. It's only a rich mans game in this turd of a state.

I am not and never have been rich. I have hunted in CA all my life. The cost of fuel, license, and tags has curtailed, but not stopped, my hunting in recent years. If I lived where the fuel was not such a consideration it would be a different story. The rest is reasonably affordable for lower middle class hunters who already have their guns, gear, loading equipment and so on.

Meplat
05-14-2012, 6:13 PM
Yes i am well aware of that! I think you already knew my "poor animals" remark was tongue in cheek ;) BTW i also slaughter my own lamb, beef not so much even though i raise my own, to large to do it properly and not waste meat.


Yes. I figured a lot of that out. I have done the same. A pig is about as big as I want to handle without purpose built equipment. The way domestic animals are slaughtered on the farm and by small custom meat processors is much prettier than todayís slaughtering factories.

Gryff
05-14-2012, 6:37 PM
I'll oppose gun-related hunting legislation, but I will be the first to stand up to say that trophy hunting disgusts me. As does killing anything just to see if you are a good shot, because it has a nice pelt, or because live doves/pigeons make more interesting targets than clay pigeons.

Want to kill because you are going to eat it? I'm totally cool with that. Because an actual predator is a legitimate risk? OK. But it's the other reasons that people hunt that causes me to only provide grudging support.

Meplat
05-14-2012, 7:11 PM
I think this would be a more appropriate place to continue the conversation.

See what you did Meplat? LOL:p:D

Honestly! I canít point you kids anywhere!:p

Meplat
05-14-2012, 7:13 PM
I think this would be a more appropriate place to continue the conversation.

See what you did Meplat? LOL:p:D

Honestly! I canít point you kids anywhere!

Meplat
05-14-2012, 7:31 PM
I'll oppose gun-related hunting legislation, but I will be the first to stand up to say that trophy hunting disgusts me. As does killing anything just to see if you are a good shot, because it has a nice pelt, or because live doves/pigeons make more interesting targets than clay pigeons.

Want to kill because you are going to eat it? I'm totally cool with that. Because an actual predator is a legitimate risk? OK. But it's the other reasons that people hunt that causes me to only provide grudging support.

That's great! I admire your honesty given that I perceive that most responders so far have been hunters. All I ask is that you read and really think about my first paragraph. If there is any of it you do not understand (due to my limited powers of articulation) please feel free to PM me.

May I respectively ask whether you see yourself a part of the natural world?

Also, consider that most hunters are vehement about eating what they kill. I learned that as a family value at my grandfather’s knee. You kill it, you dress it, you take care of it, and you eat it. It was not put on this earth just to be a challenging target.

taperxz
05-14-2012, 8:22 PM
I'll oppose gun-related hunting legislation, but I will be the first to stand up to say that trophy hunting disgusts me. As does killing anything just to see if you are a good shot, because it has a nice pelt, or because live doves/pigeons make more interesting targets than clay pigeons.

Want to kill because you are going to eat it? I'm totally cool with that. Because an actual predator is a legitimate risk? OK. But it's the other reasons that people hunt that causes me to only provide grudging support.

In over 30 years of hunting and meeting many many hunters. I have yet to run into one of the type of people you are referring to.

FWIW EVERYONE trophy hunts. What that means is that all hunters want to harvest the largest most mature deer they find. The whole idea is to let the littler one grow up and pass on the gene pool of strong animals.

As far as dove hunting is concerned, It obvious you have never been to a dove feed. Dove never goes to waste. Maybe if you surrounded yourself with hunters and got to know them you would not feel the way you do.

If you hear all this crap about trophy hunting and stuff more than likely its a younger crowd who are just showing a little testosterone. They were NOT taught that way.

Gryff
05-14-2012, 10:10 PM
May I respectively ask whether you see yourself a part of the natural world?

Not sure what that means. I don't commune with trees, but I love being in nature.

Also, consider that most hunters are vehement about eating what they kill. I learned that as a family value at my grandfatherís knee. You kill it, you dress it, you take care of it, and you eat it. It was not put on this earth just to be a challenging target.

Most generally do hunt for meet. But take a stroll through the CGN hunting sub-forums and enjoy the threads on people who drive 30 miles into the desert to kill coyotes because they are threats to people and pets. Or how they lust after popping that bobcat because the fur would look good on the wall. Or heck, just because you want to watch squirrels disintegrate:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=572200

As far as dove hunting is concerned, It obvious you have never been to a dove feed. Dove never goes to waste. Maybe if you surrounded yourself with hunters and got to know them you would not feel the way you do.

Actually, a) I'm talking about the people who think it is fun to use live birds for target shooting:

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=146738582043721
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Pigeon-shooting

and b) I've grown up around hunters ALL my life and have been a hunter myself. I eat meat. I wear leather. I have no problem with killing bambi as long as there is a purpose bigger than "because it's fun."

taperxz
05-14-2012, 10:47 PM
Most generally do hunt for meet. But take a stroll through the CGN hunting sub-forums and enjoy the threads on people who drive 30 miles into the desert to kill coyotes because they are threats to people and pets. Or how they lust after popping that bobcat because the fur would look good on the wall. Or heck, just because you want to watch squirrels disintegrate:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=572200





Ground squirrels are a pest to ranchers and also spread disease. You are doing the area a service by eliminating this pest. YES it is a pest and is not considered game. Same thing with coyotes. There are plenty of them and it also helps the deer population survive since we can't do any control with Mnt.Lions. Blame your state for that blunder!!! Shooting Bobcat is really helping the quail population. When a bobcat is around the quail are all over the ranch dead. Well at least the feathers are. Everything has a balance and bobcats are regulated, (you need a tag to harvest one)

I have no idea whats up with shooting domestic pigeons at all. If they belong to someone and they want to shoot em thats on them its not hunting.
Wild Pigeon has a short season in this state and people normally eat wild pigeon. Just because its on You Tube doesn't make it common:rolleyes:

IVC
05-15-2012, 3:15 AM
I'll oppose gun-related hunting legislation, but I will be the first to stand up to say that trophy hunting disgusts me. As does killing anything just to see if you are a good shot, because it has a nice pelt, or because live doves/pigeons make more interesting targets than clay pigeons.

Very emotional response, but short on specifics. What is it precisely that bothers you? I'm not advocating either side, just would like to see some justification for such a strong opinion.

Take any domestic cat and put it close to any small critter and you will see "trophy hunting," where the cat is not going to eat the kill. Is this also disgusting, or is it only when humans do it?

IVC
05-15-2012, 3:40 AM
Man is the kindest predator but also the most violent and unrelenting one. Not only will he kill you at your prime, but he wants to take your habitat too.

Predators kill, so to that extent all predators are both violent and unrelenting. Humans are probably the least violent since we are the only ones who are aware of life and death, thus we exercise self-imposed moral requirements of "clean kill." Even when you wound an animal, it's far less violent than most predators - compare it to dieing from a snake bite, or commodo dragon bite, or having leg caught by a crocodile and being dragged into the river, or being eaten alive by piranas, or being killed by wild bees, or being a mouse slowly killed by a cat while playing with its prey, etc.

As for habitat, it's ours as much as any other species'. To what we can adapt, we can inhabit. No different than any other animal. Just because we understand our impact on the environment and exercise restraint before it's too late, doesn't mean it's somehow not our habitat. Any predator species does exactly the same, except they don't ever stop. Again, we are in that respect "better" than other predators.

So, I'll side with the OP on where we stand relative to the flora, fauna, life, the universe and everything.

24Sailor
05-15-2012, 7:58 AM
Very good topic Meplat. I saw the topic and then read through the posts. Although it got somewhat sidetracked you did do a good job of bringing the issue to the table. I kind of read the thread title this way: SOLIDARITY?; AND WHY WE HUNT.

I commend Gryff for giving his opinion: "I'll oppose gun-related hunting legislation, but I will be the first to stand up to say that trophy hunting disgusts me.". This statement is valid and gives me the impression you don't partake in hunting and that is fine. But, you will not allow yourself to be persuaded and conquered by that segment of the anti - gun crowd who seek to end the very reason many of us own firearms to begin with.

My safes are home to hunting rifles , military rifles and handguns. Here's the difference: The hunting rifles I shoot and hunt with, the military rifles date from the Revolutionary War to 1941 and were mostly inherited. The handguns I purchased as investments and on average have appreciated 300%. I have no use for a modern military knock off type of firearm, so I don't participate by not owning them. However I do think they're fun to shoot. So if I'm traveling through Las Vegas and have some money to burn I don't do it in a casino....I go rent and shoot machine guns for an hour (what a hoot).

That being said I eat what I hunt. I shoot pests and let the scavengers eat them. And yes I do get a kick out of vaporizing gophers (and would ground squirrels except none live near me). I don't "hunt" coyote or raccoon, but if I happen to see one on my property when I have a rifle handy I'll shoot it. Bobcats and foxes I don't shoot unless they're after my chickens even when I do see them and have my rifle with me. If the opportunity to shoot a trophy animal during hunting season arrises I'm not about to shy away. I also enjoy just watching wildlife without harming it with the exception of pests.

Meplat
05-15-2012, 10:22 PM
Not sure what that means. I don't commune with trees, but I love being in nature.

When you are in nature, do you feel as if you are a resident, or a visitor?

Most generally do hunt for meet. But take a stroll through the CGN hunting sub-forums and enjoy the threads on people who drive 30 miles into the desert to kill coyotes because they are threats to people and pets. Or how they lust after popping that bobcat because the fur would look good on the wall. Or heck, just because you want to watch squirrels disintegrate:

Coyotes are a danger to people and pets. Thirty miles is not that far for a medium sized predator to range. The problem with coyotes, and to an extent bobcats, is that the metro-centric population of CA has restricted the method of take to the point that they are suffering greatly from population pressure. That is why they move into the suburbs and start working the cat and poodle trade. If the population in the outlaying areas can be reduced there will not be as much pressure on the young animals, which need to establish a territory, to move into the burbs and create problems.

That bobcat is not going to live forever. The pelt has several ways it can go. It can lay in the wild where it will molder and disintegrate after being ripped asunder by another predator. It can also wind up in the feces of another predator or scavenger. All somewhat ignoble ends. On the other hand it could be mounted by a taxidermist, or made into any number of useful, beautiful, and valuable articles. A hat, or collar and trim for a lady’s coat. All testaments, showing respect and reverence for the animal its self, and with proper care it can out last many lifetimes of the original animal, and even outlast the hunter.

Ground squirrels do indeed carry the vector for bubonic plague. They are indeed a pest to farmers and ranchers. Some landholders will allow you to hunt their land for game animals if you help control the squirrel population. It is unadvisable to handle recently dead ground squirrels. So you are not going to dress and eat them. However in respect for the animal and hunting ethics one wants to make as quick and clean a kill as possible. The red mist thing insures that a gut shot animal is not going to disappear into its burro and suffer for hours or days. It is assurance that you have used enough gun, the proper ammunition, and made an effective shot.

Actually, a) I'm talking about the people who think it is fun to use live birds for target shooting:

“Live Trap” shooting has been illegal for over half a century.