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wireless
05-13-2012, 1:07 PM
I live in unincorporated redwood city right off edgewood road. We have developed a cougar problem. It's been spotted on our street twice and last night I listened to it kill a raccoon about 5-6 feet from my window. I've never heard anything like that except in a zoo.


There are young children next door ages 4 and 5, plus there is a young child in my house.


If I encounter this cougar in my backyard again and I've determined it's a threat to a young child, can I shoot it? Or is this illegal in san mateo county:rolleyes:?


I also come home from school late at night and have to park on the other side of the street. It's about 40-50 yard walk to the front door and I get home between 11pm-1am about three-four nights a week. I really don't like the idea that I cannot be armed.


Any understanding of the legal code here would really help. I was hoping this wouldn't be an issue, but after listening to the cougar rip apart it's prey not even ten feet away...I realized it's going to be an issue.

wash
05-13-2012, 1:17 PM
A mountain lion will probably not attack a full grown human.

That's about all the good news I have for you.

There may be a way to legally shoot it if it is attacking livestock but in real rural areas with livestock concerns, shoot, shovel and shut up is the rule of thumb.

There must be some kind of animal control agency in the city or county, that's probably your best chance of resolution.

For reference, a friend of mine has pictures of a huge mountain lion from the game camera on his large, heavily wooded yard and he's not worried about it because he has no livestock.

dantodd
05-13-2012, 1:18 PM
Keep a gun in your car (in a locked container) then you can be armed on your own property going in from the car.

As for shooting the cougar, you might have difficulty claiming it was a threat to others at 11 pm.


I thought SOMEONE, who shall remain nameless, had all the emerald hills cougars taken ca of.

Lugiahua
05-13-2012, 1:22 PM
encounter dangerous animals is a good cause in many counties, you should try to apply a CCW.

wireless
05-13-2012, 1:25 PM
I am only 21 with tattoos. I have a feeling san mateo county sheriff will deny me. I'd really like one though.


I was considering keeping my five-seven unloaded in my trunk. Then grabbing it and walking the 40 yards to my house and then putting it back in it's container at night. I am on a gated street so I'm not too worried about being illegal for the 20feet i cross the street.

Lugiahua
05-13-2012, 1:27 PM
You mentioned that you are in school, be careful that it is illegal to possess firearms on a college campus without a CCW, even locked.

The worst thing they can say to your application is no, so I still think you should try it.

Mr. Gillious
05-13-2012, 1:29 PM
I thought this thread was gonna be about a desperate milf

wireless
05-13-2012, 1:29 PM
I think I am going to try.

I did not know that, thank you for that very important piece of information.

A CCW would make this all much simpler.

CSACANNONEER
05-13-2012, 1:33 PM
encounter dangerous animals is a good cause in many counties, you should try to apply a CCW.

LMFAO. You obviously do not know San Mateo County. They told my dad not to waste his time applying even though he's a +31 year retired federal office and the MUST issue one to him. A little kitty in a backyard isn't going to be GC there.

wireless
05-13-2012, 1:36 PM
Ya that's what I figured.


Ugh, the new sheriff sucks.

wildhawker
05-13-2012, 1:42 PM
http://www.allmotivated.com/pictures/Demotivational-pictures-cougar_Hunting.jpg

-Brandon

wireless
05-13-2012, 1:47 PM
I'm going to apply either way. The worst they can say is no.

BKinzey
05-13-2012, 1:54 PM
First you need to contact the authorities. You could start by calling the local police and asking who else you should contact. Your taxes pays for someone to take care of this and if they do it will be much easier. Should you find yourself in a situation where you take action it will look much better that you have established a history of the problem and sought other solutions.

glockman19
05-13-2012, 1:57 PM
S...S...S

Squid
05-13-2012, 2:01 PM
at Del Valle at dusk.

I was looking right at till about 15 yards away as I got out to take a leak and it sprang up and headed up the hill.

I still can't believe I didn't see it before. Spent next 6 weeks looking under my bed and in the closet for cougars.

IIRC, cougar is consider to have magic powers of invisibly by the Indians. I'd have to agree.


And the way it moved up the mountain was more like a coiling and uncoiling rather than 4 legged animal. And precious little to shoot at when head on(or tail on). Small head, narrow body and thin legs and all bouncing around in fast random fashion. If it had gone for me instead of up the mountain I think I could have had a submachine gun on my lap, cocked, safety off and it would've been iffy at best.


I'd be very worried about kids that age as they are just old enough to be exploring outdoors near their house real good, and totally helpless prey as far as a cougar is concerned.

I'd consider getting a good decent sized protective dog like German Shepard. He wont be able to beat the cougar but his alerting will most likely drive off the cougar AND any random game like 'coons or deer the cougar will be interested in. Train him to chase off deer and rabbits.

Habid
05-13-2012, 2:15 PM
Get a kangal breed dog. It's should take care of prob, but I'd contact local animal control to solve this prob,

taperxz
05-13-2012, 2:39 PM
Right now Edgewood park is packed with people. While generally its not fun having a cat in the area, there are plenty of deer in Emerald Hills for them to feast on. During the day don't look around for them, look up in the trees. At night flashlights are a good option to use.

wireless
05-13-2012, 2:43 PM
I live about 2 miles from clifford school. The idea of a cougar being in a neighborhood hood does not make me happy.

Drivedabizness
05-13-2012, 3:01 PM
shoot a cougar in CA and expect to be arrested, weapon confiscated, etc.

You can try the "I was afraid for the children" defense after the fact but you will be considered guilty until proven innocent or maybe you;ll get lucky and your jury will nulify.

Seriously, call animal control but I would not hold out much hope.

Bruce
05-13-2012, 3:01 PM
Keep a gun in your car (in a locked container) then you can be armed on your own property going in from the car.

As for shooting the cougar, you might have difficulty claiming it was a threat to others at 11 pm.
I thought SOMEONE, who shall remain nameless, had all the emerald hills cougars taken ca of.

How about 10:30 PM? Would that be better? ;)

Mike's Custom
05-13-2012, 3:05 PM
Mountain lions are not afraid of humans. A couple months ago I met 4 mountain lions in a 3 day period and they were all different lions. One was walking about 12 ft from the house on a friends ranch I was staying at and stopped to look in the window at me. One was 40 yards from me sitting under a tree on a deer trail and and besides turning to face me if didn't move and certainly didn't run away. One was about 10025 yards from my wife and I and trotting away. It stopped and looked back over its shoulder at us then continued trotting away and over a fence to the neighboring property. The last one I startled as I came over a ridge in a Polaris Ranger and it ran about 8ft in front of me and disappeared into a heavlly overgrown area 10 yards away. This is also a deer trail to water. This same weekend I found 3 different sets of lion tracks at the pond and one of the sets was the same lion entering over his own previous days tracks. The other 2 sets were different sizes and come in from different directions. I know at least sets of prints were from different lions then I had seen because 2 of the other places were deer trails with their own sources of water. A state trapper told me that one lion will kill a deer every 2 to 3 days and does not eat dead it doesn't kill. It will not eat rotting meat and that is why they eat on a carcuss for only 2 or 3 days depending on the weather.

nick
05-13-2012, 3:12 PM
http://www.allmotivated.com/pictures/Demotivational-pictures-cougar_Hunting.jpg

-Brandon

Looks like the woman who used to live across the street from me.

taperxz
05-13-2012, 3:35 PM
shoot a cougar in CA and expect to be arrested, weapon confiscated, etc.

You can try the "I was afraid for the children" defense after the fact but you will be considered guilty until proven innocent or maybe you;ll get lucky and your jury will nulify.

Seriously, call animal control but I would not hold out much hope.

This is not true. However upon reporting the kill you can expect LE/F&G to open up an investigation into the matter. You will be asked questions about the mannerisms of the cat coming at you ect. Wrong answers can result in an arrest correct answers will help you tremendously when there are no witnesses. Shooting a lion to prevent loss of livestock, domestic pets or human life are the requirements. Identifying the cats mannerisms is important. Cats are a curious animal!

If you happen to see a cat generally it's not interested in you. It's the ones you don't see are the problem. If you fear for your life shoot the cat!

wireless
05-13-2012, 3:37 PM
I figured shooting the cat would be similar to home invader type issue. I should be required to "retreat" first or see what my other options are.


Too bad CA sets these standards for defense.

nick
05-13-2012, 3:42 PM
I figured shooting the cat would be similar to home invader type issue. I should be required to "retreat" first or see what my other options are.


Too bad CA sets these standards for defense.

CA has no requirement to retreat.

taperxz
05-13-2012, 3:44 PM
I figured shooting the cat would be similar to home invader type issue. I should be required to "retreat" first or see what my other options are.


Too bad CA sets these standards for defense.

LOL! Running is the LAST thing you do with a lion!!! They like to chase their prey! Hold your ground, make lots of noise challenge it, and if all else fails shoot it! Do not chase it to kill it, you'll have a legal problem then!

wireless
05-13-2012, 3:46 PM
As for shooting the cougar, you might have difficulty claiming it was a threat to others at 11 pm.


.



Cougars hunt mostly at night, and considering I come home late...


LOL! Running is the LAST thing you do with a lion!!! They like to chase their prey! Hold your ground, make lots of noise challenge it, and if all else fails shoot it! Do not chase it to kill it, you'll have a legal problem then!


I am aware I do not run from a mountain lion. I am simply saying it's too bad I can't just shoot the thing in my backyard and the law has gray areas.


CA has no requirement to retreat.


Really? I thought CA law said I can't shoot a home invader unless death or serious injury is a threat. EG: I come down stairs and someone is stealing my TV, I can't shoot him/her unless my life is threatened.

JB-Norcal
05-13-2012, 3:49 PM
Don't retreat by running or cowering, make yourself big by raising arms with a booming voice. Cats chase things that run. I have no personal knowledge, this is 2nd hand from FG. I'm curious to what the mannerisms are just before an attack in a stand off.

taperxz
05-13-2012, 3:50 PM
Do you have any links to to reports about a cat in emerald hills? I can't seem to find any.

The War Wagon
05-13-2012, 3:51 PM
Have you contacted your local Chinese restaurant?

THEY'LL know what to do... :shifty:








http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/The_War_Wagon/NotChicken.jpg

nick
05-13-2012, 3:54 PM
Really? I thought CA law said I can't shoot a home invader unless death or serious injury is a threat. EG: I come down stairs and someone is stealing my TV, I can't shoot him/her unless my life is threatened.

Which isn't the same as retreating. And yes, you can only employ deadly force (shooting someone is considered such) when you, or others, are presented with a threat of death or great bodily injury. You have no legal duty to retreat either way.

wireless
05-13-2012, 3:54 PM
Do you have any links to to reports about a cat in emerald hills? I can't seem to find any.


I don't, but I am going to report this cougar. My neighbors down the street had warned me twice that they've seen it, and then I listened to it attack/rip apart some animal right outside my window last night.


I imagine it comes from edgewood park or in the hills above my house.

HighLander51
05-13-2012, 5:17 PM
Hear is some real data from the DFG, not internet dribble.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/lion/attacks.html

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/lion/trends.html

The greatest lion populations are in Calveraras, Modoc, El Dorado, and Mendicino county, where I have a summer camp and have encountered lions on a regular basis over the last 35 years. The population exploded in the mid 80's thru early 2000. Even though I carry a gun, I have never, not once, ever,felt the need to even put the sights on one. The closest encounter was after I shot a nice deer, during season, and it was near sunset, a good size female decided to investigate the kill when I was gutting it. Just walked slowly towards it, yelling loud, waving arms. It jumped into the tree line. Cougars are very mindful of getting injured, even a minor injury,and they will starve to death in a hurry. A good kill to stalk ratio is 1 in 10. They are most active at dusk and dawn on moonlight nites. They cannot see in complete darkness

By the way, that cougar in the picture IS NOT a lion from California, not even up north. A big male may reach 150lbs in the wild here. If it's not photo shopped, most likely from Western Canada.

Shoot a lion in an urban area, because you felt scared? You are going to learn alot about the justice system in this state.

Don't call the local PD/Sheriff. If you see a lion, report it to Dept Fish and Game.They will make every effort to capture and relocate.

Coyotes are responsible for hundreds of times more kills than lions, there are just not that many left.

Just like in the wild, predators go for the young, and old/feeble/sick. Get a dog,or 2, keep your little kids in after dark, along with your old Grandma.

anthonyca
05-13-2012, 5:23 PM
I live in unincorporated redwood city right off edgewood road. We have developed a cougar problem. It's been spotted on our street twice and last night I listened to it kill a raccoon about 5-6 feet from my window. I've never heard anything like that except in a zoo.


There are young children next door ages 4 and 5, plus there is a young child in my house.


If I encounter this cougar in my backyard again and I've determined it's a threat to a young child, can I shoot it? Or is this illegal in san mateo county:rolleyes:?


I also come home from school late at night and have to park on the other side of the street. It's about 40-50 yard walk to the front door and I get home between 11pm-1am about three-four nights a week. I really don't like the idea that I cannot be armed.


Any understanding of the legal code here would really help. I was hoping this wouldn't be an issue, but after listening to the cougar rip apart it's prey not even ten feet away...I realized it's going to be an issue.

I have a coworker who lives right near that area. About a year ago he called the boss and said he would be late to work. He asked the boss if he wanted to hear his excuse and the boss said no, he had worked for him for 15 years and if he was going to be late it must be a good reason and he didn't need to know why.

My coworker insisted on telling him why and the boss said ok. Then the coworker said" there is a mountian lion in my back yard". The boss said $&:$!?@!

Someone called the cops and they locked down the neighborhood.

taperxz
05-13-2012, 5:25 PM
Don't call the local PD/Sheriff. If you see a lion, report it to Dept Fish and Game.They will make every effort to capture and relocate.

Ya sure, like there is a warden on every corner. Up here in san mateo county the sheriffs dept will do the job if there is a threat. They don't normally relocate nuisance cats.

wireless
05-13-2012, 5:39 PM
Too bad I don't have a suppressor:p



Living in the bay area is so bittersweet.

taperxz
05-13-2012, 6:03 PM
There's been lions in Emerald Hills forever. heck, Crystal Springs is right behind you.

HK4113
05-13-2012, 6:06 PM
Call DFG and tell them whats going on and let them take care of the animal. If you are worried about the neighborhood kids then go and tell their parents what is going on and to watch the kids when they are outside.

CSACANNONEER
05-13-2012, 6:17 PM
There's been lions in Emerald Hills forever. heck, Crystal Springs is right behind you.
Yep. The first cat I ever saw was up on Sweeny Ridge back in the early '80's.

wjc
05-13-2012, 6:37 PM
I would bet Redwood City (even the unincorporated part) has an ordinance against shooting within city limits.

If you were in a rural setting and had livestock in danger you might be able to get a depredation permit.

I'd call DFG and let them deal with it. Even if you were justified you'd probably get into some legal trouble if you took care of the cat yourself.

Thank the supporters of Prop 117 for this stupidity.

Drivedabizness
05-13-2012, 6:40 PM
This is not true. However upon reporting the kill you can expect LE/F&G to open up an investigation into the matter. You will be asked questions about the mannerisms of the cat coming at you ect. Wrong answers can result in an arrest correct answers will help you tremendously when there are no witnesses. Shooting a lion to prevent loss of livestock, domestic pets or human life are the requirements. Identifying the cats mannerisms is important. Cats are a curious animal!

If you happen to see a cat generally it's not interested in you. It's the ones you don't see are the problem. If you fear for your life shoot the cat!

If you are not a lawyer, refrain from giving bad legal advice.

IANAL - but what I said is dead on.

This guy is in an urban environment with the deck stacked against him.

Or would you rather underwrite and indemnify his defense?

Manolito
05-13-2012, 6:41 PM
I just went through the State and federal gammit on a Lion and I can tell you my experience. I have no advice just the experience I went through.

Like all things I would start building a folder today. Call fish and game, city police, and Sheriff. Explain what is happening and you are worried for your safety. Notify the parents next door so they can worry about the children. I collected a lot of photographic evidence of the cat and his tracks to take care of the oh it was probably not a lion. When the rear pad has three distinct indentations you have a lion. If you see nail marks it is not a lion.

If you loose a pet to this animal call for a predation permit it is good for ten days and can list you and the federal trapper as eligible to kill this cat. They can not deny you this permit it is in the law and they must produce the permit within 48 hours of you calling.

Some cats are like people to lazy to chase deer and start the easy life eating domestic animals and pets. We have one working our area right now that has taken a liking to cats and is yet to be caught or shot.

All experts will tell you they will not attack a adult I can give you examples of that not being true. Do not get between the lion and his prey or a previous kill this is very dangerous.

Good luck and my guess is you would never see an attack coming they are the master of amubush.

Just for your information California has outlawed you from trapping this animal or setting snares etc. There are a lot of people would love to see you go to jail for harming a lion. Look up the mountain lion society.

Good Luck
Bill

ElvenSoul
05-13-2012, 6:51 PM
It sure would be a shame if it ate some posioned meat ment for coyotes :(

wjc
05-13-2012, 6:51 PM
I just went through the State and federal gammit on a Lion and I can tell you my experience. I have no advice just the experience I went through.

Like all things I would start building a folder today. Call fish and game, city police, and Sheriff. Explain what is happening and you are worried for your safety. Notify the parents next door so they can worry about the children. I collected a lot of photographic evidence of the cat and his tracks to take care of the oh it was probably not a lion. When the rear pad has three distinct indentations you have a lion. If you see nail marks it is not a lion.

If you loose a pet to this animal call for a predation permit it is good for ten days and can list you and the federal trapper as eligible to kill this cat. They can not deny you this permit it is in the law and they must produce the permit within 48 hours of you calling.

Some cats are like people to lazy to chase deer and start the easy life eating domestic animals and pets. We have one working our area right now that has taken a liking to cats and is yet to be caught or shot.

All experts will tell you they will not attack a adult I can give you examples of that not being true. Do not get between the lion and his prey or a previous kill this is very dangerous.

Good luck and my guess is you would never see an attack coming they are the master of amubush.

Just for your information California has outlawed you from trapping this animal or setting snares etc. There are a lot of people would love to see you go to jail for harming a lion. Look up the mountain lion society.

Good Luck
Bill

This is good advice. I'd also make plaster casts of any paw prints, if feasible, to add to your evidence. It would help them make a positive ID.

wjc
05-13-2012, 6:52 PM
It sure would be a shame if it ate some poisoned meat meat for coyotes :(

silly...you don't poison coyotes. You shoot 'em! :D

taperxz
05-13-2012, 6:58 PM
If you are not a lawyer, refrain from giving bad legal advice.

IANAL - but what I said is dead on.

This guy is in an urban environment with the deck stacked against him.

Or would you rather underwrite and indemnify his defense?

My parents live their, I know the area well, you can either call the sheriff who IS the authority there or shoot the animal if it is threatening you, your family, domestic pets or YES livestock in the area. Many people have horses there.

OH and it's not legal advice, it's protect you sheet advice as well as your life.

wjc
05-13-2012, 7:03 PM
My parents live their, I know the area well, you can either call the sheriff who IS the authority there or shoot the animal if it is threatening you, your family, domestic pets or YES livestock in the area. Many people have horses there.

OH and it's not legal advice, it's protect you sheet advice as well as your life.

I have a tangential question, taperxz, just out of curiosity.

Has anyone actually popped a cat in the area and where there any ramifications? I'm curious to hear how it might have been handled.

taperxz
05-13-2012, 7:41 PM
I have a tangential question, taperxz, just out of curiosity.

Has anyone actually popped a cat in the area and where there any ramifications? I'm curious to hear how it might have been handled.

Recently? No. Im not saying go seek out a cat and shoot it. I'm saying in an encounter that is life threatening you should shoot the cat. On the peninsula, we only have the Marine division of F&G, so that resource is limited. The sheriff dept does tons of stuff in those hills and Edgewood park.

My parents neighbor is 92 and hunted and killed lions, deer ect. In the same area as it was a very remote place until high tech CEOs moved in. It is a huge oak filled area with two small lakes.

-hanko
05-13-2012, 7:51 PM
There are young children next door ages 4 and 5, plus there is a young child in my house.

If I encounter this cougar in my backyard again and I've determined it's a threat to a young child, can I shoot it? Or is this illegal in san mateo county:rolleyes:?
I'm baffled you're even asking the question.

Are you saying if it IS illegal to shoot the animal and it's threatening kids you would not shoot it?:confused:

Hint...if you don't stop the attack, you end up with a mauled or a dead kid.

No cougars (feline) where I live, but I've terminated more than a few coyotes which I'd consider a threat to youngsters and domestic animals.

Unbelievable you're more freaked about being illegal than protecting the child...somewhat sad at the same time.:o

-hanko

dantodd
05-13-2012, 8:36 PM
My parents neighbor is 92 and hunted and killed lions, deer ect. In the same area as it was a very remote place until high tech CEOs moved in. It is a huge oak filled area with two small lakes.

Those damn high tech CEOs up in Emerald Hills.

One was killed in the area last year. http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/mountain-lion-killed-in-redwood-city-backyard/nKW2z/

taperxz
05-13-2012, 8:50 PM
Those damn high tech CEOs up in Emerald Hills.

One was killed in the area last year. http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/mountain-lion-killed-in-redwood-city-backyard/nKW2z/

Ya, I know! My folks have one of the oldest houses up there. Not an old shack, lol. It really grew in the last 15 years.

Thanks for the link. I never heard of that story. Where theres that many deer there's lions.

Patrick Aherne
05-13-2012, 9:03 PM
IR game camera: get photo evidence. Report it to both your local police agency, I assume that's SMCSO, AND the CA DFG. Start building the paper trail. There are a number of big cats in San Mateo County and the poster who said cats that weigh 150 lbs aren't from California is not correct. About ten years ago, 300 yards from my house, one was run over on 280 in SSF that weighed over 150 lbs and was a juvenile male. Cougars acting like cougars, i.e. hunting at night, should not be a problem. Cougars that you see in the daytime, or ones that kill domestic pets, etc. are a problem. These types of incidents will only continue to occur until we re-institute hunting and game management of cougars, instead of Disneyana-fantasy schemes that endanger the public.

mdwbbi
05-13-2012, 9:08 PM
Nah, mountain lions don't attack people....

http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks_ca.html

I wouldn't trust that first statement :30:

twinfin
05-13-2012, 9:45 PM
Here's a couple things I've learned about lions in California. Most of the lions you read about showing up in urban areas are almost always very young male lions less that 150 pounds.

The big males of up to about 180 pounds or so, will defend their large territories from any other males lions. Young male lions leave the protection of their mothers when they are up to around 100 pounds but they can't successfully fight for territory against adult males until they gain about 40 more pounds. This is the reason all these lions you hear about showing up in neighborhoods are almost always male lions between 100 and about 140 pounds. At this size, they will be killed if caught in the territory of a full size male lion.

The popular disinformation often spread by media is that the poor lion has run out of habitat due to humans building homes in the hills but this is not true. The lion population has greatly increased because Dept. of Fish and Game can no longer manage the lion population through hunting due to the ballot initiative banning them from doing so.

You can shoot a lion if you or your livestock are directly threatened but you must notify the Dept. of Fish and game within 72 hours, just enough time to get a lawyer to assist you in making this notification. I wouldn't dare make any statements without such legal counsel advising me. It would be way to easy for an overzealous warden to lead you into making incriminating statements. Why risk that?

As other have mentioned, you can get a depredation permit if circumstances warrant issuance of such.

You may have heard that lions have not attacked or killed many people in California in the last 100 years but the part the big media loves to drop from their report is that almost all such incidents have occurred since hunting lions has been banned.

I hope you found this informative.

Funtimes
05-13-2012, 10:39 PM
Whatever you do, just use protection!

hoffmang
05-13-2012, 10:44 PM
I've been 15 feet from this exact lion. He was annoyed that I'd interrupted his deer hunt. I added it to my GC, but it has nothing to do with getting granted here in San Mateo.

However, please call him in. The more reports of him in our back yards, the less risk of repercussion should he have to be shot in self defense.

-Gene

bpenn
05-13-2012, 11:40 PM
OP
Below is DFG personnel responding to quoted questions from a hunter. The basic point? You will not like the outcome of shooting a mt lion unless you have puncture marks and scratches. Courtesy of armchair biologists (aka voters) in urban population centers via prop 117.

Edit: Make special note of the evidence of physical contact. That is the key. Fear is not sufficient. I think there was an instance of a turkey hunter who shot a lion after a physical incident, but was charged because he had no injuries.

---
QUOTE
Quote Originally Posted by xxx
Hi Mark & Eric,

The concern I have is in your statement: "However, according to our policy, there must be physical contact made for it to be classified as an attack (threatening behavior is a different category)." For a bow hunter walking in low light conditions in heavy brush, rim rock country or in a grove of tall trees, physical contact most likely would mean a pouncing ambush from an elevated position. Correct? (I base this description on video I have seen of lions attacking prey and accounts of lion attacks on humans.) In an attack where seconds count and the cat is attempting to latch onto the neck area, what would be the most effective method to defend oneself?
END QUOTE

RESPONSE
This classification scheme drives our policy, which directs the actions our field personnel take. In other words, our field staff respond to an attack in a different manner than a cat showing threatening behavior, which elicits a different response from our staff responding to a lion sighting. The term "physical contact" means simply that; you just need some evidence of it, such as a scratch, bite wound, etc.

I can't answer your question about the most effective method to defend yourself. It would depend on the circumstances and what equipment/materials you have at your disposal. We routinely say to fight back with everything you have.

QUOTE
Quote Originally Posted by xxx
1. Do you pursue lions when alone, at night (without operating portable lights), in a stealthy manner to a destination where the potential encounter doesn't involve a trap?
2. When pursuing lions, on any occasion did you or your companions carry a firearm or other type of defensive weapon? If so, what type of weapon and how often was the weapon present?
3. In the performance of your duties as an agent for the DFG, did you ever have a lion behave in a manner that required you to defend yourself. If so, please describe that situation(s)?
END QUOTE

RESPONSE
Depending on the type of operation, I will sometimes find myself on the ground, creeping through the woods on my hands an knees without a light. I might be following an animal, searching for a lost contact lens, purposefully trying to get closer to something in order to observe it (maybe with or without night-vision goggles).

DFG biologists are not allowed to carry firearms in the field. Sometimes our law enforcement division (aka wardens) will provide lethal backup. Biologists routinely work without law enforcement backup.

When I worked for another agency, I had a lion stalk me and one of my coworkers through a boulder field. My coworker was intent on running away, and I had to hold her belt to keep her close. I feared that if she ran, she'd put us both in danger. I noticed the cat at about 70 yds, its tail was twitching, crouched low in front, all the basic stalking behaviors. In the blink of an eye, the cat disappeared from my flashlight beam, only to reappear at 30 or so yards, exhibiting the same behavior. The cat followed us for about 1/2 mile back to the truck, cutting us off on the trail, then reappearing behind us. It never made contact, but bluff charged once, hissed and cackled (chattered its teeth) a couple times.

But, on another note, one other time I purposefully walked in on a den site where a female had some cubs. We wanted to take some measurements on the cubs. As we walked in, we noticed the signal from the female's collar getting stronger, meaning that she was getting closer. We weren't sure if she was coming back to the den or just following some prey, so we maintained our course to the den site. After a few minutes of measuring cubs, I noticed the female not but 15 feet away from us. I stood up and to let her know that I was bigger than her. Also, we handled the cubs in a delicate but deliberate manner, ensuring they did not squeak. The cubs remained silent and we put them back in the den. As we walked off (I was facing the female the entire time), she slowly approached the cubs in the den site. She then gathered the cubs up and took them to a new den site. NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER.

madjack956
05-13-2012, 11:55 PM
A mountain lion will probably not attack a full grown human.
That's about all the good news I have for you.

There may be a way to legally shoot it if it is attacking livestock but in real rural areas with livestock concerns, shoot, shovel and shut up is the rule of thumb.

There must be some kind of animal control agency in the city or county, that's probably your best chance of resolution.

For reference, a friend of mine has pictures of a huge mountain lion from the game camera on his large, heavily wooded yard and he's not worried about it because he has no livestock.

They had a mountain lion snacking on mountain bikers down here in So. Cal some years ago. Snagged one chick right off her bike as she rode down the trail if I recall correctly.

jimh
05-13-2012, 11:58 PM
I had a lion problem, dfg came out and set a trap and told me I could sho

jimh
05-14-2012, 12:00 AM
ot it, I am in the city limits. I believe this may be bad advice, but he was very clear, lion in the backyard/frontyard, bang bang bang... can dfg afterwards and they issue a permit. Still doesnt address discharging a firearm in city limits next to a house.

Decoligny
05-14-2012, 12:22 AM
I would bet Redwood City (even the unincorporated part) has an ordinance against shooting within city limits.

If you were in a rural setting and had livestock in danger you might be able to get a depredation permit.

I'd call DFG and let them deal with it. Even if you were justified you'd probably get into some legal trouble if you took care of the cat yourself.

Thank the supporters of Prop 117 for this stupidity.

OP said he lives in "unincorporated Redwood City".
No such place. "Unincorporated" means it is not within any incorporated city limits.
He lives just outside Redwood City in unincorporated San Mateo County. Redwood City ordinances do not apply outside of city limits. There may be county ordinances that prohibit discharge, but the city ones don't apply.

sharxbyte
05-14-2012, 12:35 AM
Could be one of the few good times to take advantage of the right to open carry long guns; Have it in your car, and carry it ready to load until you get on your property, then shove in the mag.

Wrangler John
05-14-2012, 2:44 AM
I remember receiving an automated phone call from the RCPD regarding a lion sighting in the Emerald Hills area a couple of years ago. We live within a few hundred feet of Upper Emerald Lake. The call was a warning notification. Since the area has been saturated with new homes we have had less wildlife sightings, except for skunks. A few years ago I had a rather large bobcat sitting at the far end of our swimming pool, cleaning himself nonchalantly. He ducked under the fence when I explained the way things are to him. Future visits were foiled by blocking gaps between the fence and ground, and an additional 6' chain link fence at the property line on the Emerald Lake side.

You may want to discuss the situation with DF&G and/or S.O. relative to trapping the cat for removal. My next door neighbor hired a trapper to remove skunks, then had his fences skunk proofed. Things are much less fragrant now. A professional trapper using a large cage trap, similar to those used for wild pig, may be a viable alternative if the lion poses enough of a threat.

YubaRiver
05-14-2012, 12:36 PM
Quietly ask around law enforcement people and find one sympathetic to
keeping kids safe from wildlife. They can help get a depredation permit.

Cats out after dark are less of a concern than the ones that are out in daylight
and have lost fear of humans.

If one came in my yard when my family or animals were out, I would keep
my family safe, whatever it took, and deal with any consequences later, however.

YubaRiver
05-14-2012, 1:00 PM
Here is a WA hunter who was stalked on two different occasions. Shot the 2nd
cat with an arrow.

"Ebel's starting to wonder if all those years working in the fish hatchery before he retired might have left a permanent odor that's irresistible to predators."

http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2011/sep/29/bowhunter-seems-lure-unwanted-predators/

and more cougar stories from the same paper.

http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/tags/cougars/

Kid Stanislaus
05-14-2012, 8:28 PM
A mountain lion will probably not attack a full grown human.

Now THERE'S a tidbit of information I'd never heard before. Is that just your opinion or do you have any facts to back it up?;)

Kid Stanislaus
05-14-2012, 8:43 PM
Really? I thought CA law said I can't shoot a home invader unless death or serious injury is a threat. EG: I come down stairs and someone is stealing my TV, I can't shoot him/her unless my life is threatened.

Look up CA Penal Code 198.5. Its been posted here many times.;)

dantodd
05-14-2012, 8:48 PM
Now THERE'S a tidbit of information I'd never heard before. Is that just your opinion or do you have any facts to back it up?;)

"Probably not" only means less than 50% of the time. I suspect that's true.

taperxz
05-14-2012, 8:51 PM
"Probably not" only means less than 50% of the time. I suspect that's true.

While your statistics are true. Who wants to play roulette with a mountain lion?

LOL? I sure as heck don't want to :D I know you don't want your chickens killed either;)

dantodd
05-14-2012, 8:57 PM
While your statistics are true. Who wants to play roulette with a mountain lion?

LOL? I sure as heck don't want to :D I know you don't want your chickens killed either;)

Lol. I doubt I'd kill a lion over a chicken, but of he decided my coop was a good place to go for a second meal he'd be in for a .30 caliber surprise. I suspect my neighbors would be a bit surprised too.

On second thought, I'd probably give him a 12 gauge surprise, less riccochet possibility in our rather tight quarters and if he's in our yard he's within lethal range for the shotgun.

taperxz
05-14-2012, 9:02 PM
Lol. I doubt I'd kill a lion over a chicken, but of he decided my coop was a good place to go for a second meal he'd be in for a .30 caliber surprise. I suspect my neighbors would be a bit surprised too.

On second thought, I'd probably give him a 12 gauge surprise, less riccochet possibility in our rather tight quarters and if he's in our yard he's within lethal range for the shotgun.

Buck shot works nicely, If i were a CEO and i saw a cat in those hills eating in my yard thats what i would use. (of course if my life was threatened) HMMM what numbers on the roulette table am i playing?

hoffmang
05-14-2012, 10:25 PM
Buck shot works nicely, If i were a CEO and i saw a cat in those hills eating in my yard thats what i would use. (of course if my life was threatened) HMMM what numbers on the roulette table am i playing?

You mean I should take the dead deer carcasses in my back yard seriously? (I kid.)

Anyone who is claiming that fear is not enough does not understand enough about the laws of self defense (even against a state "endangered species") well enough to take the shot if forced to. These days I worry a bit less as my old half sized dog succumbed to old age. My new 3 year old stratfordshire terrier... well, I worry about the lion's safety now.

-Gene

taperxz
05-14-2012, 10:33 PM
You mean I should take the dead deer carcasses in my back yard seriously? (I kid.)

Anyone who is claiming that fear is not enough does not understand enough about the laws of self defense (even against a state "endangered species") well enough to take the shot if forced to. These days I worry a bit less as my old half sized dog succumbed to old age. My new 3 year old stratfordshire terrier... well, I worry about the lion's safety now.

-Gene

Thats a kinda a false sense of security Gene. It would stop a cat from getting you or a loved one for sure!! I have a true guard dog to watch my sheep and who stays with the sheep like one of them. Even a Great Pyrenees would have a hard time with a cat that wants it. I know the area that this cat is in, well:D Keep the shotgun close by;)

Ive learned this from the local federal trapper with my experiences with lions.

Quiet
05-15-2012, 12:15 AM
CA law...

CA Fish & Game Code 4800
(a) The mountain lion (genus Puma) is a specially protected mammal under the laws of this state.
(b)(1) It is unlawful to take, injure, possess, transport, import, or sell any mountain lion or any part or product thereof, except as specifically provided in this chapter or in Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 2116) of Division 3.
(2) This chapter does not prohibit the sale or possession of any mountain lion or any part or product thereof, when the owner can demonstrate that the mountain lion, or part or product thereof, was in the person's possession on June 6, 1990.
(3) This chapter does not prohibit the possession of a mountain lion carcass or any part or product of a mountain lion carcass, if all of the following requirements are met:
(A) The carcass or carcass part or product is prepared or being prepared for display, exhibition, or storage, for a bona fide scientific or educational purpose, at a nonprofit museum or government-owned facility generally open to the public or at an educational institution, including a public or private postsecondary institution.
(B) The mountain lion was taken in California consistent with the requirements of this chapter and any other applicable law.
(C) The department has authorized the possession of the carcass or carcass part or product for the purposes of this paragraph.
(c) Any violation of this section is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or a fine of not more than ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment. An individual is not guilty of a violation of this section if it is demonstrated that, in taking or injuring a mountain lion, the individual was acting in self-defense or in defense of others.
(d) Section 219 does not apply to this chapter. Neither the commission nor the department shall adopt any regulation that conflicts with or supersedes any of the provisions of this chapter.

haole_50
05-15-2012, 7:03 AM
I thought this thread was gonna be about a desperate milf

I was hoping for pix of her sun-bathing topless by the pool! DANG!

Should say "PUMA", since cougar is now NOT PC (complaining ERA scags).

a1c
05-15-2012, 7:24 AM
Nah, mountain lions don't attack people....

http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks_ca.html

I wouldn't trust that first statement :30:

Let's just put things in perspective, which the data above allows us to do: mountain lions kill very, very, very few people. We probably have a better chance of dying in a plane crash.

edwardm
05-15-2012, 11:58 AM
Thats a kinda a false sense of security Gene. It would stop a cat from getting you or a loved one for sure!! I have a true guard dog to watch my sheep and who stays with the sheep like one of them. Even a Great Pyrenees would have a hard time with a cat that wants it. I know the area that this cat is in, well:D Keep the shotgun close by;)

Ive learned this from the local federal trapper with my experiences with lions.

I wish DFG would collar/tag more of these cats in the area. We had a big one transit my area a few weeks ago (from 42nd Ave in San Mateo, up to the ridge forming the border between Belmont/San Mateo, along the street on the top of the ridge, and then over towards Laurelwood Park.) I'm pretty sure that cat was moving in a loop, as the dog went batsh*t insane at 7pm, and then again around 9-9:30pm.

I'd love to know what the range and patterns are of this cat, and whether it's the female that left a carcass at Ralston Middle School last year.

Jack L
05-15-2012, 5:31 PM
I live in unincorporated redwood city right off edgewood road. We have developed a cougar problem. It's been spotted on our street twice and last night I listened to it kill a raccoon about 5-6 feet from my window. I've never heard anything like that except in a zoo.


There are young children next door ages 4 and 5, plus there is a young child in my house.


If I encounter this cougar in my backyard again and I've determined it's a threat to a young child, can I shoot it? Or is this illegal in san mateo county:rolleyes:?


I also come home from school late at night and have to park on the other side of the street. It's about 40-50 yard walk to the front door and I get home between 11pm-1am about three-four nights a week. I really don't like the idea that I cannot be armed.


Any understanding of the legal code here would really help. I was hoping this wouldn't be an issue, but after listening to the cougar rip apart it's prey not even ten feet away...I realized it's going to be an issue.

Contact the DFG. Maybe they can trap it and relocate it.

mbt
05-15-2012, 5:48 PM
Get a dog. He can smell intruders and wildlife before you can ever see them. Problem solved. No one gets hurt, including the cat in his territory.

Quit trying to find an excuse to kill things.

edwardm
05-15-2012, 6:56 PM
Get a dog. He can smell intruders and wildlife before you can ever see them. Problem solved. No one gets hurt, including the cat in his territory.

Quit trying to find an excuse to kill things.

The only excuse I need for killing them is their mere existence. I plan to remain at the top of the food chain for as long as possible, cats be damned.

You go to other places, even in this state, and locals don't hesitate to send them to the big litter box in the sky. Between livestock predation and the threat to humans, can't say I blame them one bit.

hoffmang
05-15-2012, 7:00 PM
Let's just put things in perspective, which the data above allows us to do: mountain lions kill very, very, very few people. We probably have a better chance of dying in a plane crash.

Don't forget that exposure matters. Folks who fly 250,000 miles a year and those of us in mountain lion hunting grounds are exposed to a surprisingly higher risk.

-Gene

PackingHeatInSDCA
05-15-2012, 7:56 PM
I don't want to kill any animal...not much of a hunter really. However, if I see any mountain lion setting sights on my child, I certainly am not going to give a moment of pause to think about legality before neutralizing the imminent threat.

If that means next step is find a shovel, so be it. I'll deal with that after.

wash
05-15-2012, 8:28 PM
I guess I have to defend my statement.

Probably was the operative word there.

Mountain lions have plenty of opportunity to attack fully grown humans but the number of attacks is very low.

If you see a lion once you probably don't have much to worry about. If you see it more than that or see lots of evidence of lions, then you have something to worry about.

In the OP's case, local outdoor pets and maybe small children are in more risk.

It's kind of like the Alaska wilderness guide that doesn't carry a gun but only because he knows he can run faster than the tourists he's guiding.

If the lion bothers you so much, SSS. Otherwise call the police and DFG.

It's pretty simple and not really anything to get upset about on the Internet.

hoffmang
05-15-2012, 9:18 PM
I'm at three personal sightings with the closest one at 10' to 15' and the spookiest one being when he walked out of my front yard onto my street while I was already 80' down the road...

-Gene

Lugiahua
05-15-2012, 9:26 PM
Get a dog. He can smell intruders and wildlife before you can ever see them. Problem solved. No one gets hurt, including the cat in his territory.

Quit trying to find an excuse to kill things.

How is OP suppose to bring his dog to school everyday?
Even if his school does not prohibit pets on campus, bring a large dog while attending class is still impractical.

southernsnowshoe
05-15-2012, 9:26 PM
I have never, not once, ever,felt the need to even put the sights on one.

Well first off, the only cougars I have encountered in eastern san diego county have been at 40 and over singles night.
Now, mountain lions thats a different story.
Up until the early 80's there were some decent size muleys in our mountains, I have a picture of my dad from the 60's with a 4x4 that dressed at 200 lbs. Nowadays I am lucky to see a spike or maybe a fork and horn. It sucks, I have come up on carcasses with the femur bone snapped, only one animal that is out here that can do that.
For some reason in this state I can call and shoot coyotes year round. But the cute, fuzzy and far more deadly mountain lion, shoot him and go to prison.
I have never seen one in my backyard, but if I did i would not advertise the fact. A compound bow is your best friend in that situation. nice and quiet.

Southwest Chuck
05-15-2012, 9:33 PM
I'm at three personal sightings with the closest one at 10' to 15' and the spookiest one being when he walked out of my front yard onto my street while I was already 80' down the road...

-Gene

I'm at three personal sightings with the closest one at 10' to 15' and the spookiest one being when he walked out of my front yard onto my street while I was already 80' down the road...

-Gene

Double post. Does that make it 6 sightings now? :p

:rofl:

hoffmang
05-15-2012, 9:50 PM
Double post. Does that make it 6 sightings now? :p

:rofl:

"I have two guns, one for each of ya."

http://cdn.fd.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Kilmer-ImYourHuckleberry.jpg

-Gene

wireless
05-15-2012, 10:56 PM
Update: I was able to spot the cat tonight. He appears to be a young male. I'd put him around 160lbs and 1-3 years old. I don't enough about cats to be exact. I flipped the lights on and he didn't even flinch. Clearly he is not too fearful because the lights and people don't bother him, and he's in my backyard.


I'm going to give fish and game another call tomorrow. My family was suppose to but didn't get around to it. My neighbor now sits outside on a lawn chair while his kids play. He has three children between 4 and 7.

taperxz
05-15-2012, 10:58 PM
Call the SO now if the cat is still there.

YubaRiver
05-16-2012, 8:55 AM
Good book on Mt Lion attacks. Reads very well.

http://www.beastinthegarden.com/Home.html

---

Seeing a lion several times doesn't sound good to me.

vincewarde
05-16-2012, 11:40 AM
A few years ago a Turkey hunter was sitting against a tree in the National Forest near Cool, attempting to call in a Turkey. He must have been doing a good job, because a Mountain Lion decided it must be a real Turkey and came running - directly at the hunter.

Since his shotgun was loaded with bird shot, he held his fire until the last minute. He killed that lion with one shot and its' head landed in his lap. It was big news in the Sacramento area. He called DFG immediately. No charges were filed.

Yemff
05-16-2012, 2:17 PM
Mountain lions are not afraid of humans. A couple months ago I met 4 mountain lions in a 3 day period and they were all different lions. One was walking about 12 ft from the house on a friends ranch I was staying at and stopped to look in the window at me. One was 40 yards from me sitting under a tree on a deer trail and and besides turning to face me if didn't move and certainly didn't run away. One was about 10025 yards from my wife and I and trotting away. It stopped and looked back over its shoulder at us then continued trotting away and over a fence to the neighboring property. The last one I startled as I came over a ridge in a Polaris Ranger and it ran about 8ft in front of me and disappeared into a heavlly overgrown area 10 yards away..

that's crazy

Wherryj
05-16-2012, 7:02 PM
Keep a gun in your car (in a locked container) then you can be armed on your own property going in from the car.

As for shooting the cougar, you might have difficulty claiming it was a threat to others at 11 pm.


I thought SOMEONE, who shall remain nameless, had all the emerald hills cougars taken ca of.

I would think that if the mountain lion is truly a threat to your child, it really doesn't matter what the authorities might think. I'd also think that they'd have a pretty hard time proving your intentions were anything other than protecting a child.

dantodd
05-16-2012, 7:16 PM
I would think that if the mountain lion is truly a threat to your child, it really doesn't matter what the authorities might think. I'd also think that they'd have a pretty hard time proving your intentions were anything other than protecting a child.

If the child is outside at 11pm I agree. I was referring to the time of day that he said he saw the cat and was assuming that the kids were probably not in the yard and in danger.

geeknow
05-16-2012, 7:48 PM
Oops, I thought this thread was about the Foxfire. Carry on.

anthonyca
05-16-2012, 8:14 PM
Update: I was able to spot the cat tonight. He appears to be a young male. I'd put him around 160lbs and 1-3 years old. I don't enough about cats to be exact. I flipped the lights on and he didn't even flinch. Clearly he is not too fearful because the lights and people don't bother him, and he's in my backyard.


I'm going to give fish and game another call tomorrow. My family was suppose to but didn't get around to it. My neighbor now sits outside on a lawn chair while his kids play. He has three children between 4 and 7.

A game camera or some video would be cool to see.

hoffmang
05-16-2012, 8:36 PM
Just because I do live really close by, would you mind sharing a street and block - aka 700 block of Sylvan Way would be me?

-Gene

Manolito
05-16-2012, 9:35 PM
Please understand you will probably not see the attack coming. Three sightings at my home would unsettle me.

DF&G will not relocate an animal I was told because of liability. For whatever reason they do not relocate Lions.

Good Luck Mr. Hoffman may your lick stay strong.

Respectfully,
Bill

taperxz
05-16-2012, 10:17 PM
Just because I do live really close by, would you mind sharing a street and block - aka 700 block of Sylvan Way would be me?

-Gene


In a previous post he said he was by a school. On the other side of Jefferson?

I don't think this is by you. Clifford School?

WDE91
05-16-2012, 10:20 PM
I thought this thread was gonna be about a desperate milf

Glad to see I wasnt the only one who thought this :43:

taperxz
05-16-2012, 10:24 PM
That's the other side of Alameda from emerald hills and in RDWC not SMCO

taperxz
05-16-2012, 10:28 PM
In fact after looking at the area and knowing it, and the OP being the only one seeing it, and the fact that no one else has reported it, I think the OP is mistaken or FOS.

dantodd
05-16-2012, 10:37 PM
Good Luck Mr. Hoffman may your lick stay strong.



That's what she said.....

Uxi
05-17-2012, 9:18 AM
Guess this thread isn't about the "package" after all.

Just remember. "You were in fear for your life." That means it shouldn't be in the animals back from 500 yds.

POLICESTATE
05-17-2012, 9:31 AM
It would seem to me if the cougar was attacking you are your family then you would be well within your rights to defend yourself or them, using deadly force if necessary and a gun if that's what you've got.

If it's your neighbors, hmmm... I suppose you'd be okay defending them to.

If it's your neighbors who drive a Prius with an Obama sticker on it...

Walk back inside, turn up the TV and crack a beer.

CnCFunFactory
05-17-2012, 2:36 PM
A crossbow, shovel and your silence is all that is needed to solve this problem...:43:

dantodd
05-17-2012, 2:49 PM
A crossbow, shovel and your silence is all that is needed to solve this problem...:43:

Are you suggesting he commit a felony?

Quinc
05-17-2012, 3:05 PM
I wonder if the Lions and Wolves will soon be enough to get an CCW or open carry again? So far my small town has had 7 lions "removed" since January 1st. And in a nearby town they have had multiple sightings of lions in the playground at the elementary school in the morning while the kids are being dropped off.

CnCFunFactory
05-17-2012, 5:58 PM
Are you suggesting he commit a felony?

Please note the evil smiley face at the end of my comment. That "emoticon" in and of itself should be indicative that it was a joke.