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Sander77
05-04-2007, 12:31 PM
Hi all,

I'm aware that every city/county has its own statutes regarding the sale/shipment of ammunition. And I also know that every online vendor has their own policy on whether they ship to SF or not.

But I can't seem to find any info on the current laws that govern a person buying ammuntion online and having it shipped to San Francisco. Unfortunately, Google searches usually just get me Prop H articles.

I've heard the SF laws regarding ammo are a bit obscure - does anyone have a link to them by any chance?

(BTW, I'm not looking for vendors that do sell to SF. I'm just looking for a link to the legal stuff...)

Thanks

1911_sfca
05-04-2007, 1:26 PM
Just look it up in the city ordinances -- they're online. There is no prohibition against receiving ammo via the mail (this would be governed by federal law and ORM-D).

I think there is a limit on the amount of bulk powder you can store in SF, but not ammo.. There's a line on it in the Fire Code in the ordinances.

sako
05-04-2007, 2:25 PM
I have searched the city/county online ordnances, myself and could not find anything. I remember seeing it posted on one of the gun forums by somebody, that San Francisco has a ordnance requiring the ammunition seller to check the ID of the buyer. What was unclear, is if the check is required in person or if the ID can be faxed, photo copy mailed, or e-mailed.
Below is a cut & paste from Buffalo Arms Website, regarding ammunition sales.
San Francisco is mentioned and they will ship to SF.

"No ammunition can be shipped to individuals in the state of Massachusetts or the city of Chicago, Illinois, City of Los Angeles, California or Washington DC. We can ship to FFL dealers in your area if we have their FFL license on file.

Illinois residents must provide a copy of your FOID card. No rifle or shotgun ammunition can be shipped to New York City without a copy of your Rifle and Shotgun permit and a certificate of registration showing the caliber of firearms. No handgun ammunition can be shipped to New York City. No ammunition can be shipped to San Fransisco without your DOB, drivers license number or other state issued ID number.

QuarterBoreGunner
05-04-2007, 2:41 PM
weird. I've never heard of ANY city ordinances regarding ammo. I've had Ammoman (http://www.ammoman.com/) ship me at least 3k of .223 to my business here in the City; also Georgia Arms (http://www.georgia-arms.com/index1.htm) has shipped to me in the past as well.

thedrickel
05-04-2007, 2:48 PM
QBG how recent was this? Last year Ammoman wouldn't even ship to me because I am in SOUTH San Francisco, and he didn't understand the "it's not even the same county, ya dip****!" argument.

QuarterBoreGunner
05-04-2007, 2:51 PM
really? damn, well yeah it's been at least a year and a half. Eric never had a problem before; maybe there's some new(ish) crackdown on internet ammo sales. That blows.

I guess everything will have to go to my home in Pacifica from now on... oh wait, dammit, that won't work either: no one to sign for it.

Sander77
05-04-2007, 2:56 PM
It's odd because some of the bigger sites/retailers seem to have no problem shipping here (like Natchez, for example) while others won't. Some smaller sites do, and some don't.

AIM Surplus actually said they won't ship here because they have to report all sales made to the city. That was a new one to me...

That's part of the reason I was hoping to find the actual statute - just for my own education.

I tried the city ordinances site to no avail. I may give it another go...

sako
05-04-2007, 3:02 PM
www.ammunitiontogo.com will ship to SF and I think JG Sales will also

peepshowal
05-04-2007, 3:03 PM
Just look it up in the city ordinances -- they're online. There is no prohibition against receiving ammo via the mail (this would be governed by federal law and ORM-D).

I think there is a limit on the amount of bulk powder you can store in SF, but not ammo.. There's a line on it in the Fire Code in the ordinances.
In talking with the SF Fire Dept, they said that they have no jurisdiction to regulate what one keeps in a private residence only in a commercial property. No one there was able to tell me the limit for commercial property either.
All I've been able to find in the fire codes is this:http://www.municode.com/Resources/gateway.asp?pid=14135&sid=5

Under the heading- Part VII Special Subjects Article 77-Explosive Materials

7701.7.1 [For SF] Manufacturing.
Explosive materials shall not be manufactured, assembled or tested within the City and County.

EXCEPTIONS:

1. Hand loading of small arms ammunition prepared for personal use and not for resale.

2. Mixing and loading of blasting agents (Explosives, Division 1.5--See Appendix VI-E) at blasting sites provided all necessary safety precautions are taken.

(Added by Ord. 287-99, File No. 991683, App. 11/5/99; amended by Ord. 172-02, File No. 021135, App. 8/8/2002)

Librarian
05-04-2007, 3:43 PM
I have searched the city/county online ordnances, myself and could not find anything. Me, too.

Nothing in there about requiring ID for ammunition purchases.

That -is- true for LA, and -would be- true state wide if AB 362 (ptui!) were to pass.

Lots of vendors seem gun shy, if I may use the term, about California laws, and seem not to find it worth their while to be up to date on specifics. It's not like California makes it easy for them ....

M. Sage
05-04-2007, 6:08 PM
Google is your friend.

SF Municipal Codes index, happy searching. http://www.municode.com/Resources/ClientCode_List.asp?cn=San%20Francisco&sid=5&cid=4201

Just so everybody knows, you can usually find your city/county ordinances on the home site for same.

ETA: It looks like what you're after is in article 36A of Police Codes, which also appears to be the infamous SF handgun ban. IIRC, the whole law was tossed into the toilet in court, not just the part about handguns. Wierd that it's still on the books.

dfletcher
05-04-2007, 7:29 PM
FWIW - in general I have no trouble getting reloading components in SF with the exception of the geniuses at Midway. Midway won't ship brass or bullets to SF nor will they ship loaded ammo to SF. If you try to order on line they won't ship ammo to SSF. But if you call & order they will ship.

Zebra
05-04-2007, 8:50 PM
The only ammunition related problem I've had was an order from Sportsman's Guide...but then again, never had a problem with ordering ammunition except for that order from Sportsman's Guide.

As a side note, the only real trouble with deliveries to SF occurred when ordering parts from Fulton Armory.

Frank

Mssr. Eleganté
05-04-2007, 9:02 PM
The sections of the San Francisco Municiple Code that out of town ammo sellers have a problem with are in the Police Code, Article 9, Sections 613.10(e) & (g) and Section 615. Section 615 is the main problem.

SEC. 613.10(e) The licensee shall not deliver any firearm, firearm ammunition, or firearm ammunition component to a purchaser, lessee or other transferee unless the purchaser, lessee or other transferee presents clear evidence of his or her identity and age to the seller. As used in this Section, "clear evidence of his or her identity and age" includes, but is not limited to, a motor vehicle operator's license, a State identification card, an armed forces identification card, an employment identification card which contains the bearer's signature and photograph, or any similar documentation which provides the seller reasonable assurance of the identity and age of the purchaser.

SEC. 613.10(g) The licensee shall not sell, lease or otherwise transfer to any person any ammunition that:
(1) Serves no sporting purpose;
(2) Is designed to expand upon impact and utilize the jacket, shot or materials embedded within the jacket or shot to project or disperse barbs or other objects that are intended to increase the damage to a human body or other target (including, but not limited to, Winchester Black Talon, Speer Gold Dot, Federal Hydra-Shok, Hornady XTP, Eldorado Starfire, Hollow Point Ammunition and Remington Golden Sabre ammunition; or
(3) Is designed to fragment upon impact (including, but not limited to, Black Rhino bullets and Glaser Safety Slugs).

SEC. 615. RECORDS OF AMMUNITION SALES.

(a) Definitions.

(1) "Firearm ammunition," as used in this Section, shall include any ammunition for use in any pistol or revolver, or semiautomatic rifle or assault weapon, but shall not include ammunition for shotguns that contains shot that is No. 4 or smaller.

(2) "Semiautomatic rifle," as used in this Section, shall mean any repeating rifle which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge.

(3) "Assault weapon," as used in this Section, shall mean any of the weapons designated in California Penal Code Section 12276 or 12276.1.

(4) "Vendor," as used in this Section, shall mean any person who is engaged in the sale of firearm ammunition, including any retail firearms dealer.

(b) No vendor shall sell or otherwise transfer ownership of any firearm ammunition without at the time of purchase recording the following information on a form to be prescribed by the Chief of Police: (1) the name of the vendor (including the name of the specific individual) transferring ownership to the transferee; (2) the place where the transfer occurred; (3) the date and time of the transfer; (4) the name, address and date of birth of the transferee; (5) the transferee's driver's license number, or other identification number, and the state in which it was issued; (6) the brand, type and amount of ammunition transferred; and (7) the transferee's signature.

(c) The records required by this Section shall be maintained on the premises of the vendor for a period of not less than two years from the date of the recorded transfer. Said records shall be subject to inspection at any time during normal business hours.

(d) No person shall knowingly make a false entry in, or fail to make a required entry in, or fail to maintain in the required manner records prepared in accordance herewith. No person shall refuse to permit a police department employee to examine any record prepared in accordance with this Section during any inspection conducted pursuant to this Section.

Sander77
05-04-2007, 9:43 PM
Thanks! That's what I'd been looking for...

Librarian
05-04-2007, 10:12 PM
Burying it under "Miscellaneous Conduct Regulations"? Well, that's helpful. To be fair, the area does appear in a search for "ammunition", but the bits that apply in this case are not called out in the search return.

Good find, Amendment II.

Mssr. Eleganté
05-05-2007, 12:48 AM
Here's a better find, sections of the San Francisco Municipal Code that authorize payments to the National Rifle Association... :)

SEC. 1357. MEMBERSHIP IN NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION.

The Police Department of the City and County of San Francisco is hereby authorized to hold membership in the National Rifle Association and the cost of the said membership shall be paid from such funds as may be appropriated or set aside for that purpose.

(Added by Ord. 3263, Series of 1939, App. 5/15/45)

SEC. 1358. NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION FEES.

The Chief of Police is also authorized to collect and receive registration fees prescribed by the Rules and Regulations of the National Rifle Association and on behalf of said Association in connection with the holding of the firearms tournaments. The said fees shall be deposited in and paid from the "Police Range Fund."

(Added by Ord. 3263, Series of 1939, App. 5/15/45)

Ahh, San Francisco was so cool back in 1939. Sam Spade was still working here then. ;) And here's a section that could let us all use the police shooting range at Lake Merced if we ever get a pro-gun police chief...

SEC. 1351. USE.

The said pistol range may be used for the following purposes:

(a) To instruct, train and qualify regular members of the San Francisco Police Department, auxiliary civilian defense police in good standing, patrol special police officers, and such other law enforcement officers who, in the judgment of the Chief of Police, co-operate or may be called upon to co-operate with the San Francisco Police Department in the apprehension of criminals or the maintenance of peace in the City and County of San Francisco;

(b) To instruct and train individuals and members of clubs, organizations and associations not included in Subdivision (a) of this Section, who may be interested in the proficient use of firearms;

(c) To conduct firearms tournaments by the San Francisco Police Department.

Sander77
05-05-2007, 6:03 AM
LOL - well there's a gem.. I was a long-time member of the Pacific Rod & Gun club next door.

I'd get very jealous when you could hear what must have been fully automatic fire coming from the police range :)

hoffmang
05-05-2007, 9:52 AM
Of course, most of the ammo regs are pre-empted by Federal Law. Air and common carrier laws don't allow states or local regulations to interfere with Fedex/UPS/etc.

-Gene

Solidmch
05-05-2007, 11:13 AM
Councilman Chris Daly is insane he brought every anti gun issue into the city. Funny how gun violence has increased each year since the bans.

sako
05-05-2007, 7:08 PM
What is not entirely clear, is if it is acceptable to send the out of state vendor a photo copy of your ID and at the time of delivery, UPS gets your signature.

Creeping Incrementalism
05-06-2007, 12:19 AM
Of course, most of the ammo regs are pre-empted by Federal Law. Air and common carrier laws don't allow states or local regulations to interfere with Fedex/UPS/etc.

-Gene

Which ammo regs are not pre-empted by federal law? And do you know why the state firearms pre-emption law does not nullify the S.F. & L.A. ammo regs? I believe I read that T-M filed suit against L.A. for theirs, but it did not succeed.

Thanks Gene, & thanks to Amendment II for quoting the actual S.F. law. I have heard others reference them before on CalGuns, and once did a search for them but came up empty. You are the first to quote the actual law. Now I wonder when that law was put into affect. Sounds like early to mid 90s based on the ammo types mentioned.

Mssr. Eleganté
05-06-2007, 2:23 AM
Now I wonder when that law was put into affect. Sounds like early to mid 90s based on the ammo types mentioned.

Good call. The Municipal Code page says that section was added in 1994.

M. Sage
05-06-2007, 9:05 AM
What is not entirely clear, is if it is acceptable to send the out of state vendor a photo copy of your ID and at the time of delivery, UPS gets your signature.

IMO, the transaction isn't happening in SF, so SF's laws don't apply.