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oldrifle
05-10-2012, 7:11 PM
I saw a couple promos for some kind of investigation they did into illegal sales at gun shows. More info here:

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/crime-law/state-home-some-illegal-firearm-purchases-despite-/nN2kj/

knerona
05-10-2012, 7:15 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=570629

oldrifle
05-10-2012, 7:31 PM
Meh.

chiselchst
05-10-2012, 7:31 PM
I saw a couple promos for some kind of investigation they did into illegal sales at gun shows. More info here:

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/crime-law/state-home-some-illegal-firearm-purchases-despite-/nN2kj/

Wow, just from reading that KTVU article, it appears to me this will be another sloppy case of reporting, and VERY bias...

We'll have to provide "our input" to KTVU if it is a shoddy case of reporting like the BB report done recently by KPIX 5 News...

Sunday
05-10-2012, 7:48 PM
The news is pretty much B.S.

BigDogatPlay
05-10-2012, 8:10 PM
I find it mildly interesting that now two different stations in the Bay Area have seen fit to do stories on "problems" with California's gun laws or the gun trade in the past couple of weeks. Stories like these:

** Further the hysteria around firearms and ownership of them.
** Do nothing to address the true causes of violent crime.
** Continue to paint the picture of law abiding citizens choosing to own firearms as somehow being out of step with society as a whole.

RRangel
05-10-2012, 8:17 PM
Are they going to play with MagMagnets?

lilro
05-10-2012, 8:44 PM
CBS5/KPIX is also doing a story tonight on guard cards and using "the same guns cops use" with a lack of training or something like that @ 11. I'd make a thread but I don't remember the details.

4DMASTR
05-10-2012, 9:30 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10150776228207061

REH
05-10-2012, 9:41 PM
So what is the problem? There is a law against a straw purchase. There is already a law requiring a PPT to go through a dealer. Maybe the headline should read..............No matter how many tough laws California passes someone will break them.

G60
05-10-2012, 9:54 PM
Sounds like they found a guy who genuinely didn't know all sales had to go through FFL and walked past a booth selling mag rebuild kits. oogie boogie.

I'd laugh if they tried to 'bust' someone selling C&R long guns cash & carry.

luckystrike
05-10-2012, 10:21 PM
did anyone tell them that the atf knowingly sent thousands of guns into mexico? true story.

lilro
05-10-2012, 10:22 PM
LOL I just saw the commercial, and just like CBS, they went "undercover" with a hidden camera to a gun show. Why aren't these people being charged with anything?

eville
05-10-2012, 10:34 PM
Fairly benign.

Liberty Customs
05-10-2012, 10:37 PM
How do we know that guy with a gun in his backpack wouldn't have went to a FFL dealer to do the transaction? That story was milk-toast.

oldrifle
05-10-2012, 10:37 PM
Hey I have a question... who the heck made Brian Normandy the expert on gun laws? The Bullet Button report from a few weeks ago also featured Mr. Normandy as the official spokesman of the California firearm enthusiast. No offense to him but wouldn't we be better represented by someone like Bill Wiese or Gene Hoffman in these types of stories? These guys can actually articulate the position of the CA gun owner and explain the details of all the laws and what we're doing to comply with them.

oldrifle
05-10-2012, 10:39 PM
How do we know that guy with a gun in his backpack wouldn't have went to a FFL dealer to do the transaction? That story was milk-toast.

From what I saw he was trying to sell the Beretta to dealers. If the seller legally owns the firearm, it would be a totally legal transaction. If he was breaking the law, why didn't KTVU call the cops and show him getting arrested? Obviously he was not breaking the law and this was just sensationalist journalism and nothing more. Truly sad.

CBruce
05-10-2012, 10:46 PM
More concerned with the guy selling fully assembled high-capacity magazines. Actual high-capacity ones too, not the normal capacity ones that are wedged into that category for being able to hold more than 10 rounds.

All in all, didn't see much to get too worked up about. Criminals getting guns from illegal 'straw' purchases, people running the gun shows are stickler for the laws, Normandy stumbled a bit when posed the question about high-capacity "loopholes".

Most upsetting thing I saw was someone trying to sell a Beretta. Blasphemy!

mag360
05-10-2012, 10:59 PM
what is an "actual high capacity" magazine?

CBruce
05-10-2012, 11:01 PM
I find it mildly interesting that now two different stations in the Bay Area have seen fit to do stories on "problems" with California's gun laws or the gun trade in the past couple of weeks. Stories like these:

** Further the hysteria around firearms and ownership of them.
** Do nothing to address the true causes of violent crime.
** Continue to paint the picture of law abiding citizens choosing to own firearms as somehow being out of step with society as a whole.

Don't we have multiple threads on these very forums talking about scarcity of ammo, long backorders, not being able to get ahold of certain guns, the increase in gun sales in CA right now, and general increase in people buying guns and ammo leading up into the 2012 elections just like they did in 2008?

You think the news media is blind to this stuff as well? There's an increase in demand right now, that's newsworthy in a state with the amount of gun laws on the books that CA has.

mud99
05-10-2012, 11:08 PM
Not as bad as some of the other "news" stories out there.

We are winning.

monk
05-10-2012, 11:15 PM
Not as bad as some of the other "news" stories out there.

We are winning.

Not necessarily. Fear can make people do stupid things and support actions that a normal rational mind would not.

livefire
05-11-2012, 12:15 AM
Thanks for posting Oldrifle.

The use of the "hidden camera" says they were trying to make this a BIG story. fail.

"one man was tying to sell a gun out of his backpack" Do you think he would be rolling around a gunsafe. LOL

Someone was selling 40rd magazines? Uh. That doesn't pass the smell test for a Crossroads show. FUDDLY

:yawn:

chiselchst
05-11-2012, 9:48 AM
Not as "bad" as KPIX's piece (of crap reporting)...not nearly as sensationalized also.

But why don't they cover the "laws broken" when a terrible shooting occurs? Like the long rifle multiple Cop shootings in Oakland. I never heard any reporting on how many laws that guy broke to do what he did. I think that would help demonstrate how (the majority) of gun laws do not stop terrible crimes by criminals.

And the ATF bust in '08? WOW! That's all they have, and out of state at that?

I agree they should have mentioned F&F but I know that's dreaming.

NoJoke
05-11-2012, 10:28 AM
Usually, the opposite of what the news reports is reality.

sidenote: rain predicted and its sunny here! anyway.......

The fact that these stories are running, does that mean calguns is getting closer to the goal of "shall issue"?

I would suspect - YES.

IPSICK
05-11-2012, 12:59 PM
Not as bad as KPIX's trash reporting.

unusedusername
05-11-2012, 2:08 PM
Hey I have a question... who the heck made Brian Normandy the expert on gun laws? The Bullet Button report from a few weeks ago also featured Mr. Normandy as the official spokesman of the California firearm enthusiast. No offense to him but wouldn't we be better represented by someone like Bill Wiese or Gene Hoffman in these types of stories? These guys can actually articulate the position of the CA gun owner and explain the details of all the laws and what we're doing to comply with them.

Bill Wiese and Gene Hoffman are smart enough to not do interviews with the media. If media interaction is needed then a press release is the right way of doing it.

The media outlets have to find someone that does not know any better for their interviews.

rickb
05-11-2012, 2:29 PM
I saw the report last night at 10pm. Totally lame. They claim some guy offered to sell them a handgun from a backpack at the cow palace show then changed his mind. Next they covered high capacity magazines then they interviewed an ATF person about an old case where people purchased in another state and shipped handguns into California that were then used in crimes. Totally unrelated vignettes that don't add up to one decent story.

Paul S
05-11-2012, 3:12 PM
Usually, the opposite of what the news reports is reality.

sidenote: rain predicted and its sunny here! anyway.......

The fact that these stories are running, does that mean calguns is getting closer to the goal of "shall issue"?

I would suspect - YES.

I respectfully disagree. It is much more about the April/May ratings sweeps
thany any movement closer to "shall issue."
That's I how view it with 20 years broadcast experience behind me. YMMV. :D

oaklander
05-11-2012, 7:16 PM
I respectfully disagree. It is much more about the April/May ratings sweeps
thany any movement closer to "shall issue."
That's I how view it with 20 years broadcast experience behind me. YMMV. :D

I tend to agree with this. I also think that there is a local push by certain three letter national LE agencies to do some education around straw sales. I ALMOST support the concept. . . of education on this issue.

I will have to reach out to my contact at ATF and see what is up. I know he is reading this (please call me, the BBQ offer still stands!!!). . .

:)

That being said, the whole standard cap mag thing was dumb. There is simply no connection between magazine size and public safety.

General rules, do not talk to media. Do not talk to media. Do not talk to media. Do not talk to media.

Ah yes, there was another one, and it is DO NOT TALK TO MEDIA!!!

:D

wjc
05-11-2012, 7:19 PM
Don't forget there are a whole bunch of anti-gun bills in the CA Legislature up for vote.

It would be very convenient for the MSM networks to try and sway public opinion toward passage of those bills.

oaklander
05-11-2012, 7:24 PM
Don't forget there are a whole bunch of anti-gun bills in the CA Legislature up for vote.

It would be very convenient for the MSM networks to try and sway public opinion toward passage of those bills.

ya!!!

Let me explain something, so that people understand the dynamics of media.

You all know the Myth of Sisyphus? That is the one where the guy keeps having to roll the rock to the top of the hill, then it keeps rolling back down?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus

The ROCK is media, and we are Sisyphus.

OK - you all got that part?

NOW - what if the hill was not a hill, but was a valley, and the rock just rolled to the bottom and stayed there?

THAT IS WHAT MEDIA DOES!!!!!!

MEDIA IS THE "THING" THAT CREATES THE POLITICAL LANDSCAPE ("HILLS") THAT REQUIRES US TO ROLL ROCKS AROUND.

IF YOU CHANGE MEDIA, THERE IS NO MORE ROCK ROLLING.

ETA: that is why our opposition is mostly small, fairly well-funded, PR machines, and nothing else. They do NOT represent the will of the people, just media that is funded by several large groups, most of which trace their money back to one person (Soros). I am not making this up. Just like how Occupy was started by a single guy in Canada (google occupy adbusters.org), MOST of our opposition comes from a small subset of wealthy people who do not like our rights. This, in turn, shifts national debate in the wrong directions.

I am saying this as a former PR person who has actually BEEN IN THE OFFICES of one of the PR firms that works AGAINST us. That is all most of this is, simply media and PR. And we have to use the COURTS, to cut through the BS.

Liberty Customs
05-11-2012, 7:26 PM
From what I saw he was trying to sell the Beretta to dealers. If the seller legally owns the firearm, it would be a totally legal transaction. If he was breaking the law, why didn't KTVU call the cops and show him getting arrested? Obviously he was not breaking the law and this was just sensationalist journalism and nothing more. Truly sad.

I see. I didn't quite catch that. Overall it was a pretty weak story.

wjc
05-11-2012, 7:35 PM
ya!!!

Let me explain something, so that people understand the dynamics of media.

You all know the Myth of Sisyphus? That is the one where the guy keeps having to roll the rock to the top of the hill, then it keeps rolling back down?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus

The ROCK is media, and we are Sisyphus.

OK - you all got that part?

NOW - what if the hill was not a hill, but was a valley, and the rock just rolled to the bottom and stayed there?

THAT IS WHAT MEDIA DOES!!!!!!

MEDIA IS THE "THING" THAT CREATES THE POLITICAL LANDSCAPE ("HILLS") THAT REQUIRES US TO ROLL ROCKS AROUND.

IF YOU CHANGE MEDIA, THERE IS NO MORE ROCK ROLLING.

ETA: that is why our opposition is mostly small, fairly well-funded, PR machines, and nothing else. They do NOT represent the will of the people, just media that is funded by several large groups, most of which trace their money back to one person (Soros). I am not making this up. Just like how Occupy was started by a single guy in Canada (google occupy adbusters.org), MOST of our opposition comes from a small subset of wealthy people who do not like our rights. This, in turn, shifts national debate in the wrong directions.

I am saying this as a former PR person who has actually BEEN IN THE OFFICES of one of the PR firms that works AGAINST us. That is all most of this is, simply media and PR. And we have to use the COURTS, to cut through the BS.

yup, that's kinda what I was getting at....media being used as a tool, by whomever as I don't know all the players, to sway public opinion against
a topic.

The topic at the moment, and of immediate importance to us, are the seven or so bills going through the legislature at this time.

The timing of these TV "exposes" are really suspicious for me. I'll bet the ultimate goal is to get the TV viewers to get enraged and inundate the Legislators with emails/letters to sway THEM.

Hitler was also great, and the first to use, the media to further his agenda...think on that awhile.

oops! Did I just invoke Godwin's Law here?

advocatusdiaboli
05-11-2012, 8:53 PM
I'll just wait to watch their 'fair and balanced' expose. Not. I have better things to do.

advocatusdiaboli
05-11-2012, 8:58 PM
The timing of these TV "exposes" are really suspicious for me. I'll bet the ultimate goal is to get the TV viewers to get enraged and inundate the Legislators with emails/letters to sway THEM.oops! Did I just invoke Godwin's Law here?


Hitler was also great, and the first to use, the media to further his agenda...think on that awhile.
oops! Did I just invoke Godwin's Law here?
I doubt he was the first. i am sure the Roman Senators used the media of their time for the she as did the MedievalCatholic Church (in particular the Borgias). Certainly politics and persuasion have not changed, only implementation as technology has advanced. that said, as I have long predicted and branded a pessimist for it, CA is moving towards a firearm free state and while we'll fight all we can, I feel we are in the Alamo and taking our last stand.

gl0ckc0ma
05-11-2012, 9:13 PM
Wow are people in Norcal not tech savvy or what??

just like the CBS/KPIX (or whatever it was).

Socal had the KCal9 report on deck a few hours after.

Cmon guys WTF!

:shrug:

NSR500
05-11-2012, 9:14 PM
People need to learn not to talk to the media. <Cough>Normandy</Cough>

wjc
05-11-2012, 9:22 PM
I doubt he was the first. i am sure the Roman Senators used the media of their time for the she as did the MedievalCatholic Church (in particular the Borgias). Certainly politics and persuasion have not changed, only implementation as technology has advanced. that said, as I have long predicted and branded a pessimist for it, CA is moving towards a firearm free state and while we'll fight all we can, I feel we are in the Alamo and taking our last stand.

You are correct. I wasn't clear.

I meant the electronic media of radio.

I don't feel we are defending The Alamo yet. We are currently watching Santa Ana's troops march into position in San Antonio de Bejar.

SilverTauron
05-11-2012, 10:34 PM
You are correct. I wasn't clear.

I meant the electronic media of radio.

I don't feel we are defending The Alamo yet. We are currently watching Santa Ana's troops march into position in San Antonio de Bejar.

Much is said about gun registration leading to confiscation .which in turn precedes an act of government sanctioned mass murder.

The ingredient often overlooked is a corrupted media outlet. Tyranny cannot last long when the tyrants cant control the information. In Rwanda, the most dangerous weapon that caused the deaths of millions in that nation wasn't the gun, the blade, or the machete-but a radio station which encouraged everyone to jump on the genocide bandwagon.

In Australia and the UK, media manipulation on their respective shooting incidents led directly to those nations being disarmed. We're seeing it in America on a national scale regarding Fast and Furious:the situation has reached the stage of contempt charges and still not a peep from the standard media outlets.

For all intents and purposes, the 1st Amendment is dead in modern media.Free speech? "Free", in every definition of the word, is the last thing the network admins in MSNBC and Company want.

bohoki
05-12-2012, 12:40 AM
i figured it out
they just want to shut down any gunshow at the cow palace
that is their motivation

oaklander
05-12-2012, 2:04 AM
i figured it out
they just want to shut down any gunshow at the cow palace
that is their motivation

They don't like that it is near the projects. Like anything, the REALITY is that there are many hard working men and women who live in low income housing. I know, I am one of them. If it were not for some family help, I would be even more poor than I am.

And WE need self defense more than many. I need to remind folks that MILLIONS dollars of guns are sold through high end auction houses in SF every year. And that stuff never even raises a press eye brow. The reason is obvious.

Google julia auction gun frisco. I counted two others last time I checked. Their guns and bid prices are often listed.

This all relates to the attitudes of local politicians. And if you country people think that our state laws suck, you can blame the city politicians for that.

ALL of our main gun laws are ham-fisted "responses" to urban crime.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

advocatusdiaboli
05-12-2012, 7:10 AM
This all relates to the attitudes of local politicians. And if you country people think that our state laws suck, you can blame the city politicians for that.

ALL of our main gun laws are ham-fisted "responses" to urban crime.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As usual, Oaklander get's it right with his insight. The two major metropolitan areas in California are the epicenters of anti-gun and nanny state thinking. And due the the simple fact that they contain the majority of the state's population, they have significant urban crime issues and they hold the majority of the voting power. They pander to the anger and fear of firearms unique to city dwelling people largely unfamiliar with them that country folk laugh at with disbelief. I don't see that ever changing.

Madison, Jefferson, and others, visionaries as they were, worried about the rise of urban centers and the voting power they'd have to hold sway over farmers such as themselves which is why we have an electoral college and the senate composition is the same for all states regardless of population. Unfortunately no such checks and balances exist at the state level and California governance is an example of what transpires as a result. Rather than dismantle the CA nanny state, Brown is planning tax increases to keep it from bleeding red ink and imploding like its counter parts in the EU that also live and spend beyond their means (Spain, Italy, Greece, etc.). He'll also pander to the antis if it furthers his nanny state agenda.

I expect firearms woes for RKABA supporters in California to continue as these urban politicians with a prohibition mindset are aided by the federal government in their firearms prohibition efforts unless SCOTUS definitively forces the 2nd amendment unilaterally to all states. But I am not holding my breath given the acquiescence to state's right to regulate arms expressed in the McDonald decision.

When I retire, it will be to a free state, and firearms liberty will just be one of the reasons. Taxation (sales and property) is bleeding the middle class dry here and under Brown's largesse shows no sign of abating.

oaklander
05-12-2012, 6:40 PM
As usual, Oaklander get's it right with his insight. The two major metropolitan areas in California are the epicenters of anti-gun and nanny state thinking. And due the the simple fact that they contain the majority of the state's population, they have significant urban crime issues and they hold the majority of the voting power. They pander to the anger and fear of firearms unique to city dwelling people largely unfamiliar with them that country folk laugh at with disbelief. I don't see that ever changing.

Madison, Jefferson, and others, visionaries as they were, worried about the rise of urban centers and the voting power they'd have to hold sway over farmers such as themselves which is why we have an electoral college and the senate composition is the same for all states regardless of population. Unfortunately no such checks and balances exist at the state level and California governance is an example of what transpires as a result. Rather than dismantle the CA nanny state, Brown is planning tax increases to keep it from bleeding red ink and imploding like its counter parts in the EU that also live and spend beyond their means (Spain, Italy, Greece, etc.). He'll also pander to the antis if it furthers his nanny state agenda.

I expect firearms woes for RKABA supporters in California to continue as these urban politicians with a prohibition mindset are aided by the federal government in their firearms prohibition efforts unless SCOTUS definitively forces the 2nd amendment unilaterally to all states. But I am not holding my breath given the acquiescence to state's right to regulate arms expressed in the McDonald decision.

When I retire, it will be to a free state, and firearms liberty will just be one of the reasons. Taxation (sales and property) is bleeding the middle class dry here and under Brown's largesse shows no sign of abating.

Thank you!

Yes. . . I get to learn this stuff by watching it, and now, actually being PART of it.

I actually think the key in urban centers is to remind people how all of the gun laws ORIGINALLY got started. People need to wrap their minds around the concept of our civil rights being a progressive issue here, and a conservative issue in other parts of the state.

That is why the Winkler book is so powerful. I think that no matter who we talk to at this point, we can illustrate the issue in terms that people will understand. HERE, the original law, the MULFORD ACT, was passed to disarm the Panthers. What has happened is that the noose on them, is now tightened around the entire state.

THIS is why we must never be divided again over things. Opposition works by dividing us on race issues, and other issues. It is standard procedure ("divide and conquer.")

Brian S
05-14-2012, 1:48 AM
People need to learn not to talk to the media. <Cough>Normandy</Cough>

That's good advice for everyone. They mentioned Brian has been in law enforcement for 20 years but I believe he was terminated from the SF Police Department in '94 for charges that he had threatened, abused, stalked and falsely imprisoned his ex-girlfriend Nicole Velasquez, in his patrol car.

His father maintained his innocence and allegedly used his political influence to get him reinstated. Later he filed a $7.5 million libel and slander lawsuit against Mayor Jordan and his chief of staff.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/e/a/1995/10/19/NEWS14985.dtl#ixzz1upZWGqCd

Sutcliffe
05-14-2012, 6:28 AM
It does seem that KTVU was sure an active shooter would be trolling the aisles the way then conducted their hidden camera expose'.

Frankly, they ought to be embarrrassed.

oaklander
05-14-2012, 7:20 AM
It does seem that KTVU was sure an active shooter would be trolling the aisles the way then conducted their hidden camera expose'.

Frankly, they ought to be embarrrassed.

The REALITY about "gun-culture" is that about half of the people at the Cow Palace show are somehow connected to LE, and the other half are people who have concerns about the laws, and are trying to reform the laws.

The OTHER REALITY is that these are often the same people. (Many LE folks are part of our communities).

If someone wanted to look for criminal "culture" - a GUN SHOW is not where they would look.

oaklander
05-14-2012, 7:21 AM
That's good advice for everyone. They mentioned Brian has been in law enforcement for 20 years but I believe he was terminated from the SF Police Department in '94 for charges that he had threatened, abused, stalked and falsely imprisoned his ex-girlfriend Nicole Velasquez, in his patrol car.

His father maintained his innocence and allegedly used his political influence to get him reinstated. Later he filed a $7.5 million libel and slander lawsuit against Mayor Jordan and his chief of staff.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/e/a/1995/10/19/NEWS14985.dtl#ixzz1upZWGqCd

Interesting. . . I have never met that man, but I am certain that I have friends who know him. And THIS is why we do not talk to the press. Imagine if it got back to the station(s) that the person who is apparently now apparently our unofficial "spokesman" even had these ALLEGATIONS leveled at him. Again, the general rule is to stay out of press, and ALSO stay out of visible politics. If there is nothing "there" - there is nothing for opposition to oppose. Now, our own political opposition has a "hook" on which to investigate something.

"Self-Appointed Gun Rights Spokesman is Alleged Stalker"

WE know that this entire thing was probably political, but the mass of the readers do not. . .

I hate to break it to you guys, but the world is fairly corrupt, and it has been this way for OVER 3000 years:

"Both hands are skilled in doing evil; the ruler demands gifts, the judge accepts bribes, the powerful dictate what they desire-- they all conspire together."

http://www.biblestudytools.com/micah/7-3.html

But, nooooooooooo, people want their 15 minutes of fame.

Mr. Gillious
05-14-2012, 7:30 AM
th053 50n5 0f 81t6es!

halifax
05-14-2012, 7:49 AM
...
"Self-Appointed Gun Rights Spokesman is Alleged Stalker"
...

If that was intended to be some kind of press headline, I'm incredulous. Why would "Self-Appointed" be an important fact to a reporter? :D

oaklander
05-14-2012, 7:52 AM
If that was intended to be some kind of press headline, I'm incredulous. Why would "Self-Appointed" be an important fact to a reporter? :D

That was MY dig. Brian seems like a nice guy, but he should not be talking to the press, IMHO. I know it's good for business on his end, but both of his quotes were taken out of context. And the reality is that he is really a "nobody," on the issues. He has little knowledge of what is happening on the issues, and the issue is that this makes him dangerous, for our media. . .

Especially now. With his background, he is damaged media goods, and should not speak in front of the media again. Why do you all think *I* do not speak in front of media? I am covered in tats, and I am simply not a good public spokesperson for us. Again, just my personal opinion, from having worked in media and PR for nearly 20 years.

AGAIN, he seems like a nice guy, and the kind of guy that it would be fun to have a beer with. BUT, he should not be using his "years of LE experience" as a hook to gain any sort of voice on things. He does not speak for the movement, and other than being associated with a firing range, has ZERO positive connection to anything that we are doing to restore our rights. The PROBLEM is that the media does not know this.

HERE is the exact dynamic. . .

You know how when there's a "race" issue, and the press will find a single black person to get a quote from? The twisted concept is that THIS person then becomes the voice for all black people, in the viewers' heads. That is what is happening here. Brian knows about running a gun range, and that is all he knows. And I know this from being on the inside of things. I generally know who is who, and what they know and don't know. It just is what it is. . .

AGAIN - just my personal opinion, and this is not press, and I am just speaking as Kevin.

ALSO - let me explain something.

There is a BIG split in our civil rights movement right now. . .

ONE GROUP wants rights only for people who look like them, and who kind of fit into a box of sorts. We call those people "limited rights" people. The folks who were distributing that recent petition to get LTC's fall into that group. They basically wanted only certain classes of law abiding citizens to be able to get licenses to carry. Generally, people who are more "rural," if you get my drift.

THE OTHER GROUP is OUR GROUP. We are called "universal rights," and we want all law-abiding citizens to be able to get LTC's, regardless of color, income, geographic location, history, political beliefs, etc. . .

The FIRST GROUP literally freaks out when I talk about doing urban inreach into cities like Oakland. The second group supports it. . .

The FIRST GROUP does NOT see gun rights as civil rights, despite the overwhelming scholarship and popular support for the concept. My intuition is that Normandy is in the first group.

IN ALL FAIRNESS, I think Brian IS a Calgunner, and I would like to see him come in here and just explain what he was thinking, with all of this. . . That would clear up some questions, given the latest lawsuit against state and local LE (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/news-blog/press/209-cgf-sues-san-francisco-oakland-police-departments-and-ca-doj-over-seized-firearms.html), by CGF (and that I am NOT directly connected to, BTW).

AND THAT would explain some of the timing on the press stories that have been cropping up. I do not think it is just because of sweeps, is another way to say it.

Too many things are lining up right now, and I am sensing opposition's hand, behind this recent press barrage. . . That would explain the tone of the stories, the subject matter, who was quoted, the timing, etc. . . AND, please note the file date on the CGF suit (it was 4/6 - NOT 5/6). In other words, that suit was filed BEFORE all of this press started coming down, and involves the VERY SAME agencies that are apparently connected to the recent press. . .

People seem to think that stuff just "happens." And that is a deluded way of thinking, especially around something as politically "hot" as self-defense, during an election year. And this last year has been fairly crazy, with respect to how much and how FAST, we are winning. Crazy for "them," I might add.

AND WINNING FOR US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In sum, my "take" is that you are seeing and feeling actual political backlash, with this recent press. Since I do not follow the litigation, I was just lacking that last little thing, in order to kind of form a theory that makes sense of all of this. But now I am about 90 percent certain that the recent press IS a part of a concerted media backlash against CGF's movements here. The "driver" behind this is people who have current or past connections with the agencies that are being sued.

oaklander
05-14-2012, 12:10 PM
Let me follow up with some more stuff. . .

Most reporters are not connected enough to a given issue to even know when they are being gamed, or pawned, or even pwned. What likely happened with this story, and the other two that I know about is this:

1) someone connected to LE pitched the story to the media, and;

2) the media did a story.

But the "slant" of the story is based on dozens of factors, most of which have to do with whoever pitched the story in the first place. I am telling people this as someone who used to do THIS EXACT THING.

MSM "media" does not work how you think. Everything you see is spin. Everything.

And when it comes to large TV outlets, which have only 30 minutes to sell advertising, the stories tend to get slanted in ways that (1) make their sources "happy," and (2) make their advertisers "happy."

Viewers will view pretty much anything that bleeds. If it bleeds, it leads.

If you all think that this stuff reeks of crap, you might want to start reaching out to this group: https://www.facebook.com/FirstAmendmentCoalition

The main guy is a FB friend, and he and I actually had lunch, back in the day - when I was involved more in things connected to media law.

kcbrown
05-14-2012, 1:59 PM
I hate to break it to you guys, but the world is fairly corrupt, and it has been this way for OVER 3000 years:

"Both hands are skilled in doing evil; the ruler demands gifts, the judge accepts bribes, the powerful dictate what they desire-- they all conspire together."


And people wonder why I'm so "optimistic".

No, I'm not "optimistic", I'm realistic. I have good reasons to believe that we're not going to win the fight for liberty in the end. There is a reason the world is so corrupt: because the very universe itself sides with the chaos of evil (see entropy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy)).


But, win or no, we must fight for liberty to our last breath. It is our duty as liberty-loving people.

oaklander
05-14-2012, 2:40 PM
And people wonder why I'm so "optimistic".

No, I'm not "optimistic", I'm realistic. I have good reasons to believe that we're not going to win the fight for liberty in the end. There is a reason the world is so corrupt: because the very universe itself sides with the chaos of evil (see entropy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy)).


But, win or no, we must fight for liberty to our last breath. It is our duty as liberty-loving people.

Ha!!!

That is the difference. I see the universe siding with truth and love (http://www.biblestudytools.com/1-corinthians/13.html), over time. . . Our movement is aligned with the basic principles of truth, justice, and love. Self defense is the highest right. And I might be out of line, but I see this as being the most important fight of all.

Without the right, we have no other rights. And without the fight, we do not have the right.

LOL, and I DO NOT want to sound like Jesse Jackson when I make these rhymes!!! Too funny!!! I have lived in East Oakland for 10 years, and now I am starting to preach. But the point is valid. We are a civil rights movement, just like the ones that we align with. And rights movements DO work from a higher calling.

I am not saying that we are a Christian movement (or a Jewish movement, or a Daoist movement). BUT - the basic moral principles that drive the concepts of fairness and just "right" - MUST INHERE IN OUR MOVEMENT.

We must always be an aspirational, non-partisan, and moral, movement. We work out of love for our rights, our families, our communities, and our country. We do not work out of fear or hate. We aspire to win against the dysfunction that WAS winning. And I need not remind people that we ARE winning NOW (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/news-blog/press.html), and hence, you will start to see lame, desperate attempts at media "pushback."

We are WINNING, and they are "Baghdad Bob."

CXl1GkWWGmA

"They are not winning, this is silly!"

:D

kcbrown
05-14-2012, 3:35 PM
Ha!!!

That is the difference. I see the universe siding with truth and love (http://www.biblestudytools.com/1-corinthians/13.html), over time. . .


The physical evidence is entirely against you on this. Entropy isn't just an idea, it is an observable phenomenon. It has been so consistently observed that it is regarded as a physical law of nature.



Our movement is aligned with the basic principles of truth, justice, and love. Self defense is the highest right. And I might be out of line, but I see this as being the most important fight of all.

Without the right, we have no other rights. And without the fight, we do not have the right.


Exactly.

If you love liberty and truth, you must fight this fight, no matter what the universe thinks!




We must always be an aspirational, non-partisan, and moral, movement. We work out of love for our rights, our families, our communities, and our country. We do not work out of fear or hate. We aspire to win against the dysfunction that WAS winning. And I need not remind people that we ARE winning NOW (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/news-blog/press.html), and hence, you will start to see lame, desperate attempts at media "pushback."


I believe we are winning hearts and minds for sure.

But that is not the same thing as winning at all. If it were, the bank bailouts would never have happened, the PATRIOT Act would be dead and buried, etc.

No, winning is going to take a lot more than just winning hearts and minds.

oaklander
05-14-2012, 3:39 PM
The physical evidence is entirely against you on this. Entropy isn't just an idea, it is an observable phenomenon. It has been so consistently observed that it is regarded as a physical law of nature.




Exactly.

If you love liberty and truth, you must fight this fight, no matter what the universe thinks!





I believe we are winning hearts and minds for sure.

But that is not the same thing as winning at all. If it were, the bank bailouts would never have happened, the PATRIOT Act would be dead and buried, etc.

No, winning is going to take a lot more than just winning hearts and minds.

No, entropy is physics, and applies to objects that do not have self-will. People are not objects. If your theory of entropy actually described the way that people act, we would have no countries, no art, no music, no religion, no culture. We would still be living in caves and beating each other with mastodon bones!!!

Let me ask you this. Are you an engineer, by chance???

:)

People tend to like order in their lives, and we spend most of our lives fighting entropy. . . And, over time, we win. . .

ALSO - you still have the hearts and minds thing backwards. Read some history, and learn why we actually lost the Vietnam war. We lost because the NVA used an ancient tactic, based on Sun Tzu's teachings. They were LITERALLY able to use dumass American "progressives" to kill our will to win. This was done via media. General Giap studied in the best schools in France. You know, the place where a lot of media theory, and deconstructionalism, etc. . . originated. He combined what he learned THERE, with what he knew from studying other wars. . .

AND HE KNEW THAT THIS country generally only wins wars that the people support. . .

And the people support this battle. . .

The support drives everything. . . It is the basic driver. It is the qua that causes everything else to happen. That is how we LOST, for a while, in the period from about 1968 to about 2005. The opposition beat us in the media, and that led to what Gene calls "Battered Gun Owners Syndrome." Without the will to win, we lose. Simple as that.

http://calgunsfoundation.org/news-blog/blog/entry/battered-gun-owner-syndrome-and-the-fight-for-the-right-to-keep-and-bear-arms.html

And I am certain that you are an engineer. And again, people are not electronic circuits.

I am telling you these things as someone who is in the people industry.

kcbrown
05-14-2012, 3:48 PM
No, entropy is physics, and applies to objects that do not have self-will. People are not objects. If your theory of entropy actually described the way that people act, we would have no countries, no art, no music, no religion, no culture. We would still be living in caves and beating each other with mastodon bones!!!

Let me ask you this. Are you an engineer, by chance???


Yep, I am. :D


People are subject to the same laws of the universe as everything else. And the universe automatically steers towards chaos.

We spend energy fighting it, but that expended energy only adds to the chaos in the end. That is what entropy is all about.


So we may have temporary wins, but we will lose in the end. The universe guarantees it.


Fortunately, that can happen on time scales much larger than a human lifetime.



People tend to like order in their lives, and we spend most of our lives fighting entropy. . . And, over time, we win. . .

Life itself depends on order. Life itself fights against the universe. And life itself always loses in the end. Everything dies.

Has it ever occurred to you to ask why the worst possible thing that can happen to a person, death (where one loses everything they were, everything they are, and everything they can be), is the one thing that is guaranteed to happen?

The answer is that the universe itself is anti-life. It's why the vast majority of the observable universe appears to be lifeless. In fact, the only life we've ever observed exists on this tiny little ball of rock that orbits around a nondescript star that is tucked away in the corner of a nondescript galaxy. We can see out for billions of light years, and yet this tiny ball of rock is the only place in the universe that we've observed life. Life is exceedingly rare. That is how anti-life the universe is.

oaklander
05-14-2012, 3:50 PM
Yep. :D

People are subject to the same laws of the universe as everything else. And the universe automatically steers towards chaos.

We spend energy fighting it, but that expended energy only adds to the chaos in the end. That is what entropy is all about.


So we may have temporary wins, but we will lose in the end. The universe guarantees it.


Fortunately, that can happen on time scales much larger than a human lifetime.




Life itself depends on order. Life itself fights against the universe. And life itself always loses in the end. Everything dies.

Has it ever occurred to you to ask why the worst possible thing that can happen to a person, death (where one loses everything they were, everything they are, and everything they can be), is the one thing that is guaranteed to happen?

The answer is that the universe itself abhors life.

Again, no - not everything dies. Nihilism has never worked for anything. We win because we understand that good does prevail.

CessnaDriver
05-14-2012, 3:51 PM
I find it mildly interesting that now two different stations in the Bay Area have seen fit to do stories on "problems" with California's gun laws or the gun trade in the past couple of weeks. Stories like these:

** Further the hysteria around firearms and ownership of them.
** Do nothing to address the true causes of violent crime.
** Continue to paint the picture of law abiding citizens choosing to own firearms as somehow being out of step with society as a whole.



Collusion with politicians.
I have no doubt they communicate with each other and orhestrate.
Though at this point the relelationship is so strong, it's probably just a wink and smile at the fundraisers.

oaklander
05-14-2012, 3:53 PM
Collusion with politicians.
I have no doubt they communicate with each other and orhestrate.
Though at this point the relelationship is so strong, it's probably just a wink and smile at the fundraisers.

^^^ that.

kcbrown
05-14-2012, 3:58 PM
Again, no - not everything dies. Nihilism has never worked for anything. We win because we understand that good does prevail.

What doesn't die? Even the stars themselves die.

And based on current observation and knowledge, it appears that even the universe itself will die, never to be reborn.

oaklander
05-14-2012, 4:02 PM
What doesn't die? Even the stars themselves die.

And based on current observation and knowledge, it appears that even the universe itself will die, never to be reborn.

Right, and that is how some people see it. . .

Others see things a different way. . .

The fight requires BOTH types of thinking, and that is why we are winning. We hit opposition with a diversity of tactics. . .

bwiese
05-14-2012, 4:07 PM
Please remember the Cow Palace issue is not really about guns & gun rights.

IT IS ABOUT MONEY: IT'S SITTING ON A VALUABLE PIECE OF LAND that various politicos have varying political uses for.

Attacking it for guns is an easy scare tactic because in turn that is an attack on profit and thus its raison d'etre.

All sides want the Cow Palace gone: at the state/local level the Dems have these special interests, plus at the state level the Republicans have wanted to get rid of it and get cash as 'surplus property'.

kcbrown
05-14-2012, 4:23 PM
Right, and that is how some people see it. . .

Others see things a different way. . .


Well, certainly many people believe in that which is not observable in any sort of repeatable fashion. Their beliefs could be right, or they could be wrong. There is simply no way to definitively tell. Some of those beliefs are internally consistent. Many are not.

Many/most of those same people would, however, immediately dismiss out of hand other claims on the basis of lack of observability. I find that to be most amusing.

In any case, I'm a realist. The real world is the sole measure of the truth or falsehood of any beliefs I may have, and I try hard to adjust my views to match reality (because most certainly, reality is not going to adjust itself to match my views!).

Real-world observation consistently shows that the universe is essentially anti-life, though clearly not entirely so (else life would not exist at all). One can insist on believing otherwise, but one would then be believing something that is contradicted by actual repeatable observation. And that's kind of like the antis' insistence on believing that their anti-gun policies have a positive effect on crime, when the opposite is what is consistently observed.


Anyone who truly holds truth to be dear cannot believe something that is contradicted by repeatable observation, for repeatable observation is the very foundation of truth.



The fight requires BOTH types of thinking, and that is why we are winning. We hit opposition with a diversity of tactics. . .

This is most definitely true.

kcbrown
05-14-2012, 4:58 PM
Nihilism has never worked for anything.


That's because nihilism fails to grasp that meaning and value are not externally observable things, they are internally assigned things. Furthermore, it fails to grasp that "right" and "wrong" are objective to the extent that they derive from our hardwired instincts and predispositions that the vast majority of us share.


We win because we understand that good does prevail.

We win hearts and minds because our message resonates with that which most people regard as right.

We have yet to win for real in any significant way (we're still building the foundation). I anticipate that such a win is coming, however, although I expect it will be a long time before we see it.


Good can and does prevail temporarily, but evil always wins in the end. The vast majority of history for the vast majority of people in it has been brutal and/or oppressive. There have been shining beacons of light here and there throughout history, but they are slivers of light separated by vast distances of blackness. The Dark Ages lasted much, much longer than did the Enlightenment, and Rome was a totalitarian state for much longer than it was a republic. It takes many hours to many years to build something, but only seconds to destroy it. Evil has enormously more power in this world than does good.

We exist during one of the "enlightenment" periods, and are, right now, nearing the end of it. What follows this is likely to be a thousand years of darkness and despair.

oaklander
05-14-2012, 7:43 PM
LOL, you lost me KC!

;-)

But yes, what we do does fall into the category of "very important."

We agree in that, I think!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

kcbrown
05-14-2012, 8:08 PM
LOL, you lost me KC!

;-)

But yes, what we do does fall into the category of "very important."

We agree in that, I think!


Oh, it's more than very important. It's crucial in a way that few things are. Our very survival as a free nation depends on it. Our very survival as individuals depends on it.

If we lose this then the bad guys of all types will be able to do what they want without opposition, we will have lost everything of real value, and the darkness I foresee will come much sooner and much more swiftly.

oaklander
05-15-2012, 12:52 AM
Oh, it's more than very important. It's crucial in a way that few things are. Our very survival as a free nation depends on it. Our very survival as individuals depends on it.

If we lose this then the bad guys of all types will be able to do what they want without opposition, we will have lost everything of real value, and the darkness I foresee will come much sooner and much more swiftly.

Yes, I actually agree on this. My opinion is that "the right" will forestall the darkness forever, and yours is that it will slow it.

Geez, we sure took this conversation in an esoteric direction!!!

But, as with most things, we agree on the substantial points. . .

:D

I guess my faith makes me see things differently than some. And what it kind of trippy for me was that I always thought along these lines (everything is connected, and is influenced by outside forces).

I know that you are likely not a person of faith, but there is a great passage that you might even agree with me on.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%206:11-15&version=NIV

Ephesians 6:11-15
New International Version (NIV)

11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace.

Even if you are not a God person, I think this might hold meaning for you. If nothing else, think about what Paul was up against. He was literally fighting oppression from the existing rulers. He was jailed, beaten, and eventually, killed for what he believed in.

We are blessed to live in a country that allows people to state their beliefs, and even organize around the issues. Yet, we still face the same challenges from entrenched power structures. Here, it is not the "Romans" - but it is a kind of "Empire of Dysfunction" that has permeated much of our society here.

And this is not "sky is falling" thinking. Just look at what happened to Great Britain since the 1960's. They were so destabilized by the civil unrest that hit ALL Western countries during that time period, that they simply chose to give up virtually every freedom, in order to claim temporary safety. Now, they have no safety, and no stability.

Unlike some movements, we do this work because we LOVE our country, and not because we HATE our country. Big difference.

advocatusdiaboli
05-15-2012, 5:54 AM
Collusion with politicians.
I have no doubt they communicate with each other and orhestrate.
Though at this point the relelationship is so strong, it's probably just a wink and smile at the fundraisers.

Absolutely they collaborate. If media don't collaborate with politicians then they lose access and therefore stories and news. That would be suicide for a news organization.

oaklander
05-15-2012, 5:57 AM
Absolutely they collaborate. If media don't collaborate with politicians then they lose access and therefore stories and news. That would be suicide for a news organization.

As you know, we enter WARS because of this dynamic.

William Randolph Hearst, is an example. . .

This is common knowledge, and I think that our schools just don't teach basic history anymore. The mainstream media is essentially an arm of the government. And that is why Social Media makes some people very nervous.

When I was in undergrad, I read a book entitled "Who's Running America?" The premise (that I agree with) is that it is really only about 5000 people total. This includes leaders of law, the media, universities, religious groups, corporations, etc. . . Real basic common sense, actually. Think about who shows up at community meetings? It is always the local busybodies. Well, folks - that happens on a national scale. too. . .

People think that their elected officials run things. And that is hogwash. . . How do you all think that someone actually GETS INTO OFFICE.

We really need to up our collective IQ by a few notches. It helps us understand why certain things happen. Our world IS fairly random, but there are patterns. And press being used to game an issue, is a known one.

advocatusdiaboli
05-15-2012, 6:07 AM
Sorry to be a downer, but some arguments are worth making anyway. While entropy is physics, humans have their own version. Evidence favors the idea that human culture devolves as much as it evolves, which I firmly believe (we've just been in a period of relative stagnation though there is evidence we are regressing in civility). I only need to point to the Black Plague (there were actually around 5 great plagues in early AD) which killed 1/3 of Europe. The Medieval regression lasted 1,500 years. The Napoleonic Wars devastated much of Europe. Famine, wars, disease, ignorance. Then there was WW2 which many nations took 30 years to recover from. Watching the Giro d'Italia shows many Italian towns the race runs through unrecovered from earthquakes half a decade earlier. EU economies are in dire straights. Spain's unemployment is greater than the US at the height of the Great Depression. Fertile ground for fascism again. Most local and municipal government are teetering on the edge of bankruptcy in California and elsewhere. Our true employment rate is (the way we counted it before Clinton changed it) is more like 13%. As a nation we've refused to wean our selves fro over use of petrol yet built little public transportation infrastructure and it's crushing any recovery. And H1N1 will strike globally one day, it is only a matter of time. Against that backdrop, I'd say we can be relatively sanguine about progress on firearms rights after all. Bet you didn't see that last sentence coming huh? ;-)

oaklander
05-15-2012, 9:54 AM
Sorry to be a downer, but some arguments are worth making anyway. While entropy is physics, humans have their own version. Evidence favors the idea that human culture devolves as much as it evolves, which I firmly believe (we've just been in a period of relative stagnation though there is evidence we are regressing in civility). I only need to point to the Black Plague (there were actually around 5 great plagues in early AD) which killed 1/3 of Europe. The Medieval regression lasted 1,500 years. The Napoleonic Wars devastated much of Europe. Famine, wars, disease, ignorance. Then there was WW2 which many nations took 30 years to recover from. Watching the Giro d'Italia shows many Italian towns the race runs through unrecovered from earthquakes half a decade earlier. EU economies are in dire straights. Spain's unemployment is greater than the US at the height of the Great Depression. Fertile ground for fascism again. Most local and municipal government are teetering on the edge of bankruptcy in California and elsewhere. Our true employment rate is (the way we counted it before Clinton changed it) is more like 13%. As a nation we've refused to wean our selves fro over use of petrol yet built little public transportation infrastructure and it's crushing any recovery. And H1N1 will strike globally one day, it is only a matter of time. Against that backdrop, I'd say we can be relatively sanguine about progress on firearms rights after all. Bet you didn't see that last sentence coming huh? ;-)

The force is strong with this one!!!

:D