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CarZone
05-05-2012, 2:49 PM
I recently purchased a sks from a calguns member and meet at turners in chino hills. Turners called me today and notified me that the Dept of Justice contacted them and put my purchase on hold until they spoke to me. They gave Turners no further info just a ref #. He informed me that it wasnt a denial yet and it can still be approved. Has anyone had this happen to them? I had a DUI over 2 years ago and has since been completed. Also have a pending misdemeanor. Any info would be great.

skyscraper
05-05-2012, 2:57 PM
Pending misdemeanor would be my guess. The dros paperwork asks about certain misdemeanors.

GOEX FFF
05-05-2012, 2:58 PM
Here is the DOJ list which also shows prohibiting misdemeanors. Maybe take a look and see if your case is related in someway to any shown that may have perhaps caused the hold.

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/prohibcatmisd.pdf

CarZone
05-05-2012, 3:01 PM
Ya the misdemeanors it asked where either domestic violence or drug use. My charge was misdemeanor assault that is getting dropped but has not been finalized.

Smokeybehr
05-05-2012, 3:10 PM
Until things are finalized, and you have the paperwork that clears you, you won't be able to complete the transaction. The DROS will have to be redone if it's more than 30 days from the initial DROS.

CarZone
05-05-2012, 3:51 PM
ok now next question. Since i have purchased the rifle from a private seller can i transfer the rifle to someone else now if i am unable to recieve the gun?

PixelBender
05-05-2012, 4:16 PM
This happend to me via Turners.

I came in on the 10th or 11th day, and they gave me a paper with a number to call. Said the DOJ put a "hold on release" or something like that. I called and they asked to see dispositions(proper term?) on two cases... I called my lawyer and spoke with him about getting the proper paper work. He was surprised to hear that anything came up in the first place, considering they where cases from when I was 12, and 14 years of age. Long story. He put a request in for the papers and I got a call about 2 weeks later saying the DOJ had released the hold but my DROS would expire the following day. Turners never called me to tell me that the DOJ on the 13th day released the hold. I called the DOJ to confirm and that was that. I asked why they did that in the first place, and they had nothing else to say regarding the hold. Beats the hell out of me. It was my first purchase though, a few years ago. I have not had a problem since. I've pulled files from the archives for the Navy before and since then they misplaced the documents. It took them 3-4 months before they got the paperwork to my lawyer. One department said "we cant find them" the other said "we have half the documents" the whole thing was a giant cluster f*ck.

Chaos47
05-05-2012, 4:28 PM
I know it doesn't help you now but for people looking at this that might be in the same boat, or for you in the future if you get your charge cleared up..

IMO anyone that has anything in their history should first request the Department of Justice to conduct a firearms eligibility background check...
http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/pfecapp.pdf?

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#2
http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pfecfaqs

Edit:
To your question about what happens to the gun if you are fully denied
This might help:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=283114
Sounds like it goes back to the original owner (no dros no wait) and you are out the fee's as well

mrdd
05-05-2012, 4:35 PM
ok now next question. Since i have purchased the rifle from a private seller can i transfer the rifle to someone else now if i am unable to recieve the gun?

You cannot do anything with the item until you resolve the issue. If you cannot resolve it within 30 days of the DROS, the DROS fails and the CA DOJ will run a check on the seller. If the seller passes the check, the item goes back to the seller. If the check on the seller fails, the FFL must turn the item over to the local LEA for disposition.

If the seller gets the item back, they can sell it to someone else. Be careful, though. If you are involved in a subsequent sale, it could be considered a straw sale. That could land you, the seller, and other buyer in trouble.

paul0660
05-05-2012, 4:46 PM
it could be considered a straw sale.

LOL. Those are usually a lot slicker than this, and depend on the qualifications of the eventual owner.

mrdd
05-05-2012, 4:49 PM
LOL. Those are usually a lot slicker than this, and depend on the qualifications of the eventual owner.

Paul, I am glad you thought it was funny.

CarZone
05-05-2012, 5:00 PM
I cant believe it has come to this. I have already payed the seller and I know that it will not be resolved untill june 14th and the dros ends on may 30th. :(

Chaos47
05-05-2012, 5:13 PM
I cant believe it has come to this. I have already payed the seller and I know that it will not be resolved untill june 14th and the dros ends on may 30th. :(

Better contact the seller and pray they will play ball.
Hopefully you wont have to take them to small claims court...

Oceanbob
05-05-2012, 5:19 PM
Better contact the seller and pray they will play ball.
Hopefully you wont have to take them to small claims court...

Take who to small claims court?

Chaos47
05-05-2012, 9:44 PM
Take who to small claims court?

The seller.
The FFL is legally bound to give the seller back the rifle if OP does fail his DROS.
The seller really don't have a legal obligation to give a refund.
Besides moral, honor and ethical reasons.

It's a civil matter about giving OP a refund. And if they won't the only recourse would be small claims court.

Edit: Not saying I would keep the money, I would refund it. Just stating a possible outcome...

arsilva32
05-05-2012, 10:07 PM
why not just ask the seller if he would take possession of the gun until june 14th? if it was me i would gladly do it. you just have to re dros it .

ptoguy2002
05-05-2012, 10:09 PM
The seller.

It's a civil matter about giving OP a refund. And if they won't the only recourse would be small claims court.

Taking a person to court because the buyer didn't pass the back ground check is a load of BS. The seller has no obligation to give the buyer his money back. Private sale, no refunds after buyer inspection should be fully understood for a PPT. More often than not, a seller is selling to fund something else or because he needs the money, and after 10 days it is probably already gone. Buyer should have known he had or might have issues. Sure, I'd agree that ethics and honor would dictate that the seller shouldn't just keep it, and they should try and work something out (at the buyers $ loss), but lack of honor and ethics don't justify taking somebody to court.
You condoning this or suggesting this is sick.

ptoguy2002
05-05-2012, 10:15 PM
I would refund it.
Under most circumstances, I wouldn't. Private sale no refunds. Money is already gone anyway. Unless it was something I knew I could turn around and resell again fast, then maybe.
What I WOULD DO (because it is ethical), is tell the seller that he's got X number of days to find a new buyer himself, and that I would show up to re-do the PPT. If he doesn't find a buyer himself, I will fire sale it, and the guy gets the money from that at his loss.
Expecting a full refund is a load of crap.

Gunsmith Dan
05-05-2012, 10:37 PM
CarZone


Is the misdemeanor another DUI which could be inceased to a Felony?

The DUI you were conviced of have any bodily injury or resisting arrest?

Did you get conviced of a Felony and have it plea bargained to a misdemeanor or probation but mark the wrong answer on the 4473 form questions 11 (b) and (c)?

Did you check to see if you got any restraining orders against you?

Does the name on all the forms match exactly what in on your CA Drivers License/ID (including middle name if any)

Does the address on all the forms match the one on your CA Drivers License/ID and is the current place you are living at?

Just needed to ask you all the most common reason DROS get kicked back. If yes to any of the question above you have your answer.

havegonetooz
05-05-2012, 11:02 PM
Why can't the seller give the gun back to the buyer/FFL after 30 days because of the delay in the DROS expiring since he already received payment? Morally speaking of course. What am I missing here?

Chaos47
05-05-2012, 11:39 PM
Taking a person to court because the buyer didn't pass the back ground check is a load of BS. The seller has no obligation to give the buyer his money back. Private sale, no refunds after buyer inspection should be fully understood for a PPT. More often than not, a seller is selling to fund something else or because he needs the money, and after 10 days it is probably already gone. Buyer should have known he had or might have issues. Sure, I'd agree that ethics and honor would dictate that the seller shouldn't just keep it, and they should try and work something out (at the buyers $ loss), but lack of honor and ethics don't justify taking somebody to court.
You condoning this or suggesting this is sick.

Chill out Rob, I am not condoning or suggesting anything.

We don't know the outcome of this so it's a little early to be arguing and name calling about hypothetical situations. There's still a chance OP's DROS could clear and he gets it. If it doesn't who knows what the Seller will do.


IF the OP fails DROS and the seller gets the rifle back and IF the seller will not do anything for OP then OP is left with no rifle and no money.

Being a civil matter OP's only options will be to take it as a complete loss or sue the seller. That's a fact, again, I am not condoning or suggesting anything.

My main point is that the FFL or Police will not do anything in this case, because again it is a civil matter.

What I WOULD DO (because it is ethical), is tell the seller that he's got X number of days to find a new buyer himself, and that I would show up to re-do the PPT. If he doesn't find a buyer himself, I will fire sale it, and the guy gets the money from that at his loss.

I think you may be confused (unless by "tell the seller" you mean OP the buyer)

The seller retains ownership of the rifle through out the DROS until it is checked out of the FFL's books to the buyer.

The buyer can't find a new buyer. The buyer can't do the PPT as he is not the owner the original seller is.

If the seller has already used the money he can attempt to sell the rifle again to another person. If he then sells it then has 3 options as I see it, keep it all, refund the original buyer or refund the original buyer minus penalties for all the hassle.

Lets see how this plays out before we get up in arms..

mrdd
05-06-2012, 12:53 AM
The seller retains ownership of the rifle through out the DROS until it is checked out of the FFL's books to the buyer.

That is not really true. The PPT process is really just a transfer, the FFL is not involved in the exchange of funds or the change of ownership. The FFL is just a transfer agent. The whole process is neutral as to whether a change in ownership even takes place. You can PPT a firearm to another person as an indefinite loan and retain ownership. The fact that the item is returned to the "seller" by law when the DROS fails supports this interpretation of the process.

In the case of a sale, the change of ownership occurs when the money changes hands. Assuming this happens before the DROS completes, if the DROS fails, the buyer now owns a firearm they can not take possession of, and in fact is in hot water because by law they cannot even own a firearm. Legally, the seller does not owe any money back to the buyer.

Chaos47
05-06-2012, 1:12 AM
That is not really true. The PPT process is really just a transfer, the FFL is not involved in the exchange of funds or the change of ownership. The FFL is just a transfer agent. The whole process is neutral as to whether a change in ownership even takes place. You can PPT a firearm to another person as an indefinite loan and retain ownership. The fact that the item is returned to the "seller" by law when the DROS fails supports this interpretation of the process.

In the case of a sale, the change of ownership occurs when the money changes hands. Assuming this happens before the DROS completes, if the DROS fails, the buyer now owns a firearm they can not take possession of, and in fact is in hot water because by law they cannot even own a firearm. Legally, the seller does not owe any money back to the buyer.

No where did I state that the FFL is involved in the exchange of funds.
The gun is logged into the FFL's books when they take it in.
When a buyer fails their background DOJ does background on the seller.
If the seller passes the gun is given back to them no dros no wait
If the seller fails then the gun is given to the "the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or
city and county"

12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in
accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d)
of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the
firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain
possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm
to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the
firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c)
of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to
the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm,
the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the
waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the
firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the
firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or
transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would
constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the
dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller
or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith
deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of
police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or
city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner
provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or
person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay
a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee
may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable
fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 12076, 12076.5, and
12088.9 and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and the fees set
forth in Section 12805. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a
dealer from charging a smaller fee. The dealer may not charge any
additional fees.

mrdd
05-06-2012, 1:26 AM
No where did I state that the FFL is involved in the exchange of funds.
The gun is logged into the FFL's books when they take it in.

But you did say that in the case of a sale, the process dictates that the ownership does not change hands until the item is delivered to the buyer.

There is no support for this interpretation in the law.

When an FFL checks an item into their books, it does not mean that the FFL owns the item. They just have legal possession.

Chaos47
05-06-2012, 1:28 AM
You can keep grasping but I never said the FFL owns the item.

mrdd
05-06-2012, 1:44 AM
You can keep grasping but I never said the FFL owns the item.

And I never said that you said that the FFL ever owns the item. In fact, I stated that a PPT is completely neutral as to whether a change in ownership occurs.

You said:
The seller retains ownership of the rifle through out the DROS until it is checked out of the FFL's books to the buyer.

Where do you get this idea? There is nothing in the law which supports this.

In the case of a PPT sale, when the money changes hands between the buyer and the seller, the buyer owns the item, period. The seller is not under any legal obligation to refund any money to the buyer if the transfer goes wrong.

havegonetooz
05-06-2012, 6:08 AM
Where does it say the FFL dealer must return the gun back to the seller after 30 days? A delay in the DROS does not mean the dealer cannot deliver the gun ever, just that it will be delayed and if past 30 days, requires a new DROS (fee).

From P.C. 12071:

(E) "FEDERAL REGULATIONS PROVIDE THAT IF YOU DO NOT TAKE PHYSICAL POSSESSION OF THE FIREARM THAT YOU ARE ACQUIRING OWNERSHIP OF WITHIN 30 DAYS AFTER YOU COMPLETE THE INITIAL BACKGROUND CHECK PAPERWORK, THEN YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE BACKGROUND CHECK PROCESS A SECOND TIME IN ORDER TO TAKE PHYSICAL POSSESSION OF THAT FIREARM."

GOEX FFF
05-06-2012, 6:22 AM
^^ I believe this is right, since in the OP's case, there is only a delay/hold, the FFL wouldn't be required to give the seller back the item after the first DROS. However, if the buyer is flat out denied by DOJ in the end, THEN .12082 applies as the dealer obviously then cannot legally deliver the firearm to
the purchaser or transferee.....and it goes back to the seller.

OP hasn't been fully denied thus far.

HKMadness
05-06-2012, 9:23 AM
(failed) buyer should get most of his money back. Not a full refund, since he knew he had a couple issues on his record. A minimally wise person with this knowledge about himself would at the very least pay $20 for an eligibility check. I agree the seller probably sold because he needed the money, in which case the buyer should be patient about getting his partial refund.

littlejake
05-06-2012, 9:36 AM
I can tell from the opposing opinions that the next time I put a gun for sale ad in the private sales -- I'm going to have to add some language to the effect -- no refunds if you fail background check.

As far as I'm concerned you bought the gun and own it the moment the money exchanged hands, it you cannot take possession because of something in your background; I'm not going back to the dealer and recover the firearm.

Anyone who thinks the buyer in the OP scenario has any recourse in small claims court is wrong.

mrdd
05-06-2012, 11:45 AM
^^ I believe this is right, since in the OP's case, there is only a delay/hold, the FFL wouldn't be required to give the seller back the item after the first DROS. However, if the buyer is flat out denied by DOJ in the end, THEN .12082 applies as the dealer obviously then cannot legally deliver the firearm to
the purchaser or transferee.....and it goes back to the seller.

OP hasn't been fully denied thus far.

That's a good point. But, the OP has stated that there is an unresolved case of misdemeanor assault, which is prohibiting. I suspect once the DOJ learns more about that the DROS will get denied.

CenterX
05-06-2012, 12:07 PM
cut "I'm not going back to the dealer and recover the firearm."cut

Wouldn't it sort of depend on the overall value of the firearm? Reselling it may increase profit. Wouldn't like a fine Garand, Python, Wilson, or Ed Brown to end up in the scrap heap at county..... Would ya?

OP - good luck. Reading the fine print of the document and asking questions always helps.

mrdd
05-06-2012, 1:27 PM
Where does it say the FFL dealer must return the gun back to the seller after 30 days? A delay in the DROS does not mean the dealer cannot deliver the gun ever, just that it will be delayed and if past 30 days, requires a new DROS (fee).

From P.C. 12071:

(E) "FEDERAL REGULATIONS PROVIDE THAT IF YOU DO NOT TAKE PHYSICAL POSSESSION OF THE FIREARM THAT YOU ARE ACQUIRING OWNERSHIP OF WITHIN 30 DAYS AFTER YOU COMPLETE THE INITIAL BACKGROUND CHECK PAPERWORK, THEN YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE BACKGROUND CHECK PROCESS A SECOND TIME IN ORDER TO TAKE PHYSICAL POSSESSION OF THAT FIREARM."

I just thought I would point out that in the case of a PPT, the procedure is specified by statute in the CA Penal Code. See subsection (d) below.

CHAPTER 5. Procedure For a Private Party Firearms Transaction [28050. - 28070.] ( Chapter 5 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )
28050. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, in accordance with this chapter in order to comply with Section 27545.

(b) The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm.

(c) The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with Section 27540.

(d) If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 26815 and 27540, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of Section 27500, 27505, 27515, 27520, 27525, 27530, or 27535. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county, who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 18000, 18005, and 34000.

NYsteveZ
05-06-2012, 2:35 PM
Just my 2 cents-I have heard to myself and every customer at the gun shop the spiel about "the shop will charge a restocking fee of 25% or $200, whichever is less should you fail the DROS check..."
Would you take a gun shop to small claims court because YOU failed YOUR backround check? Imagine every thug suing gun shops because of this, discrimination, you name it. Now, MOST Calgunners will work with each other, but even before that-I really dont think an FFL will mind holding your SKS for a while longer while you sort this out. You will be out the DROS fees which is $25 if correct (you already paid the PPT fees) but, its only $25. ALSO...SKS is C&R exempt (cash and carry) depending on the make, why DROS it?

CarZone
05-09-2012, 12:53 PM
CarZone


Is the misdemeanor another DUI which could be inceased to a Felony?

The DUI you were conviced of have any bodily injury or resisting arrest?

Did you get conviced of a Felony and have it plea bargained to a misdemeanor or probation but mark the wrong answer on the 4473 form questions 11 (b) and (c)?

Did you check to see if you got any restraining orders against you?

Does the name on all the forms match exactly what in on your CA Drivers License/ID (including middle name if any)

Does the address on all the forms match the one on your CA Drivers License/ID and is the current place you are living at?

Just needed to ask you all the most common reason DROS get kicked back. If yes to any of the question above you have your answer.

Ok, finally got through to the dept of justice. According to them they put my purchase on hold due to my pending case. They stated that any pending misdemeanor will put your purchase on hold. Im not denied just have to wait until my case has been dropped. I have already spoke to the seller and he is fine with either waiting or selling it to my wife which the rifle is ultimately for. Not sure what the process would be to switch the purchaser to my wife.

Chaos47
05-09-2012, 6:21 PM
Ok, finally got through to the dept of justice. According to them they put my purchase on hold due to my pending case. They stated that any pending misdemeanor will put your purchase on hold. Im not denied just have to wait until my case has been dropped. I have already spoke to the seller and he is fine with either waiting or selling it to my wife which the rifle is ultimately for. Not sure what the process would be to switch the purchaser to my wife.

Glad you got some clarification and that the seller is being cool.

IMO do not try to have it DROS'd to your wife that would have the appearance of a straw purchase. Even if it really was for her in the first place that will look really bad.

Scout2Diesel
05-09-2012, 11:12 PM
Sounds like a Buyer would be wise to make up a purchase agreement/reciept... to address these issues (in their favor and acceptable to the seller). Because we know to err is human but it takes a computer to really foul things up... and they run everything now.

Anyone..?