PDA

View Full Version : Unregistered guns and restraining order - how do they know?


Johnnykck
05-05-2012, 7:02 AM
sorry to hijack the thread, but since the LEO have no records of a rifle, if the situation arises where you are required to hand your guns over to the police (example restraining order) and you turned in your hand guns only, they would have no records or any idea that you still have a rifle or even several?

TreeHugger
05-05-2012, 7:14 AM
sorry to hijack the thread, but since the LEO have no records of a rifle, if the situation arises where you are required to hand your guns over to the police (example restraining order) and you turned in your hand guns only, they would have no records or any idea that you still have a rifle or even several?

The LEO cannot take what they cannot see. Now that you know that, don't get too close! (JK) :)

Librarian
05-05-2012, 12:15 PM
They may not.

Sometimes LEO search.

WTSGDYBBR
05-05-2012, 12:29 PM
I have a buddy who busted a bottle over a security guard head because he was choking out his father . Long story short he was a firearm owner. My buddy was arrested for assault. A week after he was charged and released the ATF showed up on his door with the local PD. They said he has to turn in all his weapons and ammo. My buddy had a Glock and a shotgun. The police only took the Glock they had no clue about the shot gun. Months after he had his dad get his Glock back from the local PD in his dads name. So you answer your question riffles are not on files.

sorry to hijack the thread, but since the LEO have no records of a rifle, if the situation arises where you are required to hand your guns over to the police (example restraining order) and you turned in your hand guns only, they would have no records or any idea that you still have a rifle or even several?

JohanD
05-05-2012, 12:30 PM
Guess you could keep them off property somewhere.

glockman19
05-05-2012, 1:23 PM
They don't know...just as they don't/won't know of any long guns.

GMG
05-05-2012, 1:44 PM
I have a pistol that I bought back in the late 70's, I wonder if it is in the system?

MudCamper
05-05-2012, 2:04 PM
I have a pistol that I bought back in the late 70's, I wonder if it is in the system?

Pre-1991 handguns were not registered. Only the dealer who sold it keeps a paper copy of the 4473, just like with rifle purchases.

Yugo
05-05-2012, 2:08 PM
what if you dont have the gun physically there when they come to take it? Lets say you lent it to a friend a couple days before? Will they make you go retrieve it?

Ron-Solo
05-05-2012, 2:41 PM
Pre-1991 handguns were not registered. Only the dealer who sold it keeps a paper copy of the 4473, just like with rifle purchases.

Not true. I have guns that I bought in the 70's and 80's that are in AFS as mine.

They may not know you have them, but if you get caught with them you are in felony type trouble.

Librarian
05-05-2012, 3:33 PM
Pre-1991 handguns were not registered. Only the dealer who sold it keeps a paper copy of the 4473, just like with rifle purchases.

No, dealers have submitted DROS since 1924. It was just in 1991 that using a dealer was made mandatory for almost all transfers.

Not all of the old paper DROS records have been entered; Ron-Solo's experience show they've entered at least some of the stuff from the 70's.

mrdd
05-05-2012, 5:52 PM
sorry to hijack the thread, but since the LEO have no records of a rifle, if the situation arises where you are required to hand your guns over to the police (example restraining order) and you turned in your hand guns only, they would have no records or any idea that you still have a rifle or even several?

I guess that depends on whether you want to lie to a judge.

blakdawg
05-05-2012, 6:10 PM
Often the person requesting the RO has personal knowledge of the unregistered guns and can describe them and where they're stored.

1859sharps
05-05-2012, 6:42 PM
Not true. I have guns that I bought in the 70's and 80's that are in AFS as mine.

They may not know you have them, but if you get caught with them you are in felony type trouble.

but as a LEO you had to declare your guns.

If long guns (as of now) do not have compulsory registration, and such registration did not start until 1991 for handguns...would your situation really be a indication of the typical situation for non LEO who bought guns through dealers prior to compulsory registration?

I would seem to me that there would need to be something other than a simple purchase to get your guns in the "system" if there is no law that requires registration at time of purchase.

TRICKSTER
05-05-2012, 6:51 PM
but as a LEO you had to declare your guns.

If long guns (as of now) do not have compulsory registration, and such registration did not start until 1991 for handguns...would your situation really be a indication of the typical situation for non LEO who bought guns through dealers prior to compulsory registration?

I would seem to me that there would need to be something other than a simple purchase to get your guns in the "system" if there is no law that requires registration at time of purchase.

Really, guess they screwed up when they hired me. My department could care less what guns I owned unless I planned on carrying them as part of the job on or off duty.

SilverTauron
05-05-2012, 6:51 PM
If the police suspect there are unrecovered weapons in the home,they'll just request a search warrant.You'll then have tuned a domestic problem into a very serious legal matter when you stand in front of the judge trying to explain the "cache" the five-oh found after being served .

RickD427
05-05-2012, 8:15 PM
but as a LEO you had to declare your guns.

If long guns (as of now) do not have compulsory registration, and such registration did not start until 1991 for handguns...would your situation really be a indication of the typical situation for non LEO who bought guns through dealers prior to compulsory registration?

I would seem to me that there would need to be something other than a simple purchase to get your guns in the "system" if there is no law that requires registration at time of purchase.

There is no state law requirement for LEO's to declare firearms owned by them.

None of the LE agencies that I've worked for have required any declaration of owned firearms. No agency that I know of requires such declaration.

About the closet that you'll find are some agencies that require identification of on-duty weapons.

frankm
05-05-2012, 8:29 PM
No, dealers have submitted DROS since 1924. It was just in 1991 that using a dealer was made mandatory for almost all transfers.

Not all of the old paper DROS records have been entered; Ron-Solo's experience show they've entered at least some of the stuff from the 70's.

True. A cop showed me my gun listing in the AFS back in about 1985. But it wasn't accurate. It said I'd owned about 20 guns. I had only bought, maybe 5 by then, I only actually owned one gun when he showed me. And they missed some guns. But, the only guns you can be SURE about not being known are PPT's done without a gun shop. Even your long guns can be listed, mine for instance showed I owned 3 M-1 Carbines. I did own one, so they were mistaken about two.

BigDogatPlay
05-05-2012, 8:30 PM
but as a LEO you had to declare your guns.

Declare to who? I was a LEO for a long time and the only handguns that my employer was aware I had were the ones I carried on duty and as a backup. I had a lot more they never knew anything about.

What I am getting in this thread is that some posters seem to be advocating the commission of a crime in the unlikely event of a restraining order. If you're served with an RO you have to transfer or turn in all your guns or risk a felony charge if you're found out.

It seems to me it would be a lot better to engage counsel and deal with the RO than to risk a lifetime prohibition.

glockman19
05-05-2012, 8:31 PM
No, dealers have submitted DROS since 1924. It was just in 1991 that using a dealer was made mandatory for almost all transfers.

Not all of the old paper DROS records have been entered; Ron-Solo's experience show they've entered at least some of the stuff from the 70's.

Here's a hypothetical, I have a revolver first purchased by my friends father, (deceased), inherited by him and sold to me all pre 1986 with no paperwork and no registration all legally transfered.

and...what about other firearms that may have been purchased out of state and kept there?

Needless to say there are many firearms out there that are not owned by the Individual that DROS'd it first prior to 1991 and have no record for anyone to follow up on.

frankm
05-05-2012, 8:32 PM
Pre-1991 handguns were not registered. Only the dealer who sold it keeps a paper copy of the 4473, just like with rifle purchases.

Another point to be aware of, if a gun shop closes or loses its FFL, it must turn over it's records to the ATF.

Librarian
05-05-2012, 8:48 PM
Here's a hypothetical, I have a revolver first purchased by my friends father, (deceased), inherited by him and sold to me all pre 1986 with no paperwork and no registration all legally transfered.

and...what about other firearms that may have been purchased out of state and kept there?

Needless to say there are many firearms out there that are not owned by the Individual that DROS'd it first prior to 1991 and have no record for anyone to follow up on.

True - see also the wiki on registration -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Firearms_registration

RandyD has already mentioned a case where his client had guns out of state, and the judge finally decided not to demand that those be surrendered.

However, PC 29825 (b) Every person who owns or possesses a firearm knowing that the person is prohibited from doing so by a temporary restraining order or injunction issued pursuant to Section 527.6, 527.8, or 527.85 of the Code of Civil Procedure, a protective order as defined in Section 6218 of the Family Code, a protective order issued pursuant to Section 136.2 or 646.91 of this code, or a protective order issued pursuant to Section 15657.03 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, is guilty of a public offense, which shall be punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine. It's going to be difficult to fight the order while in county, or with thousands of dollars used to pay fines instead of lawyers.

Ron-Solo
05-05-2012, 10:02 PM
but as a LEO you had to declare your guns.

Incorrect. I only had to notify them of personal firearms I wanted to carry on duty.

If long guns (as of now) do not have compulsory registration, and such registration did not start until 1991 for handguns...would your situation really be a indication of the typical situation for non LEO who bought guns through dealers prior to compulsory registration?

DROS began in the 1920's and AFS (Automated Firearms System) was in place when I started law enforcement in 1977. I bought my first handgun when I turned 21 in 1977, a month before I started in LE. It is in AFS.

I would seem to me that there would need to be something other than a simple purchase to get your guns in the "system" if there is no law that requires registration at time of purchase.

There is....voluntary registration. It is the owners choice. There are pros and cons

If your I firearm is ever held by the police, you will have a hard time getting your gun back if there is no DROS record.



This section impacts the return of firearms. Do I like it? No, I think it is very flawed and needs to go away.

33855. No law enforcement agency or court that has taken custody of
any firearm may return the firearm to any individual unless the
following requirements are satisfied:
(a) The individual presents to the agency or court notification of
a determination by the department pursuant to Section 33865 that the
person is eligible to possess firearms.
(b) If the agency or court has direct access to the Automated
Firearms System, the agency or court has verified that the firearm is
not listed as stolen pursuant to Section 11108, and that the firearm
has been recorded in the Automated Firearms System in the name of
the individual who seeks its return.
(c) If the firearm has been reported lost or stolen pursuant to
Section 11108, a law enforcement agency shall notify the owner or
person entitled to possession pursuant to Section 11108.5. However,
that person shall provide proof of eligibility to possess a firearm
pursuant to Section 33865.

This headache is prevented by submission of the "voluntary registration" form, which generates a record in AFS.

This is a "pro" for the VolReg. Many have other opinions.


33875. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, no law
enforcement agency or court shall be required to retain a firearm for
more than 180 days after the owner of the firearm has been notified
by the court or law enforcement agency that the firearm has been made
available for return. An unclaimed firearm may be disposed of after
the 180-day period has expired.


People are always demanding that LE follow the law, and when they do in this case, they are quick to condem them for not returning someone's firearm.

Patrick Aherne
05-06-2012, 3:30 AM
Ron-Solo,

So Massad Ayoob was wrong in all those articles? <sarcasm>

RandyD
05-06-2012, 8:18 AM
When a person applies for or opposes a restraining order, the court requires the use of applicable Judicial Council Forms. The responsive forms for restraining orders contain a statement that you have either turned in your firearms as ordered or you declare that you do not own any firearms, and this declaration is made under the penalty of perjury. This response is a permanent record that is date time stamped. If you falsely state that you have no firearms, then you will have a difficult time explaining how you came into possession of a firearm that you currently own.

1859sharps
05-06-2012, 8:29 AM
must be a per department policy then. I know that Santa Cruz Sheriffs have it as a line item on their application process, and I believe LAPD also requires same.

Don't know about after your hired, and done with probation though.

ALSystems
05-06-2012, 8:30 AM
When a person applies for or opposes a restraining order, the court requires the use of applicable Judicial Council Forms. The responsive forms for restraining orders contain a statement that you have either turned in your firearms as ordered or you declare that you do not own any firearms, and this declaration is made under the penalty of perjury. This response is a permanent record that is date time stamped. If you falsely state that you have no firearms, then you will have a difficult time explaining how you came into possession of a firearm that you currently own.
Am I reading this right?
You can't apply for or oppose a restraining order unless you disarm yourself first.

TreeHugger
05-06-2012, 9:51 AM
They may not.

Sometimes LEO search.

And they usually do. They will only take what they can see, either in database or in person.

Pre-1991 handguns were not registered. Only the dealer who sold it keeps a paper copy of the 4473, just like with rifle purchases.

I bought a handgun back in 1987 and it showed up in an AFS from a few years ago.

what if you dont have the gun physically there when they come to take it? Lets say you lent it to a friend a couple days before? Will they make you go retrieve it?

Donít see why not, unless you claim stolen (if they ever finds out, itís felony time.)

This section impacts the return of firearms. Do I like it? No, I think it is very flawed and needs to go away.

33855. No law enforcement agency or court that has taken custody of
any firearm may return the firearm to any individual unless the
following requirements are satisfied:
(a) The individual presents to the agency or court notification of
a determination by the department pursuant to Section 33865 that the
person is eligible to possess firearms.
(b) If the agency or court has direct access to the Automated
Firearms System, the agency or court has verified that the firearm is
not listed as stolen pursuant to Section 11108, and that the firearm
has been recorded in the Automated Firearms System in the name of
the individual who seeks its return.
(c) If the firearm has been reported lost or stolen pursuant to
Section 11108, a law enforcement agency shall notify the owner or
person entitled to possession pursuant to Section 11108.5. However,
that person shall provide proof of eligibility to possess a firearm
pursuant to Section 33865.

This headache is prevented by submission of the "voluntary registration" form, whih generates a record in AFS.

This is a "pro" for the VolReg. Many have other opinions.


33875. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, no law
enforcement agency or court shall be required to retain a firearm for
more than 180 days after the owner of the firearm has been notified
by the court or law enforcement agency that the firearm has been made
available for return. An unclaimed firearm may be disposed of after
the 180-day period has expired.

Totally agree.

This is BS to me:
Also, unless itís a court order, even though if a person has obtained an LEGR approval letter from the DOJ, sometimes the PD will still have the right to petition against the release of said firearms.

GMG
05-06-2012, 10:46 AM
Pre-1991 handguns were not registered. Only the dealer who sold it keeps a paper copy of the 4473, just like with rifle purchases.

Thank you for the info !

PanaDP
05-06-2012, 12:01 PM
True. A cop showed me my gun listing in the AFS back in about 1985. But it wasn't accurate. It said I'd owned about 20 guns. I had only bought, maybe 5 by then, I only actually owned one gun when he showed me. And they missed some guns. But, the only guns you can be SURE about not being known are PPT's done without a gun shop. Even your long guns can be listed, mine for instance showed I owned 3 M-1 Carbines. I did own one, so they were mistaken about two.

That's pretty off-putting. What if you had been required to turn in your firearms at that time? You turn in the 5 or so you actually own and they say, "Where's the other 2 M1 carbines and the other stuff?":confused::(

frankm
05-06-2012, 12:26 PM
That's pretty off-putting. What if you had been required to turn in your firearms at that time? You turn in the 5 or so you actually own and they say, "Where's the other 2 M1 carbines and the other stuff?":confused::(

This was before PPT's required a gun store, all I had to do was tell 'em I sold 'em.

PanaDP
05-06-2012, 12:44 PM
This was before PPT's required a gun store, all I had to do was tell 'em I sold 'em.

What if you hadn't caught their mistake until after PPTs became a requirement?

RandyD
05-06-2012, 1:24 PM
Am I reading this right?
You can't apply for or oppose a restraining order unless you disarm yourself first.

You are reading it incorrectly. Each sentence makes a specific statement.

Ron-Solo
05-06-2012, 2:20 PM
Ron-Solo,

So Massad Ayoob was wrong in all those articles? <sarcasm>

What are you referring to?

wash
05-06-2012, 4:42 PM
If you are ordered to surrender or dispose of your firearms and you don't do it, that is a crime. It doesn't matter if the courts/police know about it or not.

A more interesting question is if you surrender your collection but forget an old gun in your closet that is discovered in a search, are you going to get any sympathy from the courts?

Part of being a responsible gun owner is obeying the law and not doing anything (or associating with anyone) which will result in a restraining order or an arrest. If you do that, you never have to worry about any of this.

Oceanbob
05-06-2012, 4:56 PM
discovered in a search.

Hold on a minute..!....I don't care what NUTBALL filed a TRO against someone..that doesn't erase your 4th Amendment rights.!!! Simply refuse a SEARCH.

I suggest we learn to FLEX OUT RIGHTS.!

I also recommend EVERYBODY get one of these Doormats.

http://i51.tinypic.com/33vykbt.jpg

Here:

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=come+back+with+a+warrant+doormat&rlz=1R2ADBR_en&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1211&bih=665&wrapid=tlif133634838248110&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=10704299549338626422&sa=X&ei=5w6nT4HKL8nU2AXYv92mAg&ved=0CJYBEPMCMAE#

G60
05-06-2012, 5:25 PM
They don't, but that's why they want mandatory registration, so they can confiscate all your registered firearms in these types of situations.

Librarian
05-06-2012, 5:37 PM
Hold on a minute..!....I don't care what NUTBALL filed a TRO against someone..that doesn't erase your 4th Amendment rights.!!! Simply refuse a SEARCH.



You can certainly do that. Nothing at all wrong with getting everybody to follow all the rules.

But the judge who signed the TRO/RO would reasonably be inclined to sign a warrant, too, so all you buy is a delay.

Meplat
05-06-2012, 5:53 PM
Pre-1991 handguns were not registered. Only the dealer who sold it keeps a paper copy of the 4473, just like with rifle purchases.

They were not supposed to but DOJ started keeping records long before 91! I would not risk it with anything that was ever DROSed to you!

Meplat
05-06-2012, 6:04 PM
but as a LEO you had to declare your guns.

If long guns (as of now) do not have compulsory registration, and such registration did not start until 1991 for handguns...would your situation really be a indication of the typical situation for non LEO who bought guns through dealers prior to compulsory registration?

I would seem to me that there would need to be something other than a simple purchase to get your guns in the "system" if there is no law that requires registration at time of purchase.

I have guns that I purchased in the 70’s and 80’s that were stolen and reported as such that come back as mine. I also have some that I still have that come back as mine. Don't ask me how I know. If it was ever DROSed consider it registered!

flyer898
05-06-2012, 6:15 PM
When a person applies for or opposes a restraining order, the court requires the use of applicable Judicial Council Forms. The responsive forms for restraining orders contain a statement that you have either turned in your firearms as ordered or you declare that you do not own any firearms, and this declaration is made under the penalty of perjury. This response is a permanent record that is date time stamped. If you falsely state that you have no firearms, then you will have a difficult time explaining how you came into possession of a firearm that you currently own.

What happens is that you may very well be charged with two felonies instead of one. Prosecutors, rightly, take unlawful possession of firearms very seriously and the court takes perjury very seriously. Also, while unlawful possession is a wobbler, perjury is a straight felony. My point is that unless you get very lucky you could wind up with a lifetime prohibition instead of one that lasts only as long as it takes to get the restraining order dissolved.

Meplat
05-06-2012, 6:29 PM
Here's a hypothetical, I have a revolver first purchased by my friends father, (deceased), inherited by him and sold to me all pre 1986 with no paperwork and no registration all legally transfered.

and...what about other firearms that may have been purchased out of state and kept there?

Needless to say there are many firearms out there that are not owned by the Individual that DROS'd it first prior to 1991 and have no record for anyone to follow up on.

Yes! I have guns that are inherited that are not on any list anywhere and there have to be literally millions like this.

However, if you are really worried about this, just prepare in advance. If you are going to hang out with bat s*** crazy women (not recommended), make out a bill of sale to your dad, brother, son, daughter, or other trusted person. Donít date it until you smell trouble coming. I think most people who find themselves with TRO problems could or should have seen it coming.

Why flirt with a felony?

Librarian
05-06-2012, 6:52 PM
They were not supposed to but DOJ started keeping records long before 91! I would not risk it with anything that was ever DROSed to you!

Sure they were required to - see the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Time_Line_of_California_Firearms_Laws#Dealer.27s_R ecord_of_Sale_.28DROS.29.2C_1924

What changed in 1991 was that most transactions were required to use an FFL, and thus be run through DROS.

TreeHugger
05-06-2012, 7:44 PM
I have guns that I purchased in the 70ís and 80ís that were stolen and reported as such that come back as mine. I also have some that I still have that come back as mine. Don't ask me how I know. If it was ever DROSed consider it registered!

From what I was told by the DOJ, stolen or sold, even after submitting the form such as "No longer in possession..." and you provided the person's name whom you sold the gun to, along with the S/N, there is still a history link, no matter how many times it's sold again afterward. But, it shouldn't show you as being the current owner.

Ron-Solo
05-06-2012, 8:20 PM
8531666]They were not supposed to but DOJ started keeping records long before 91[/B]! I would not risk it with anything that was ever DROSed to you!

I'm not sure where you draw this conclusion from, since AFS has been around since the 70's and in the 70's the DROS was filled out by the dealer and mailed to Sacramento where they did the background check, and mailed a response back to the dealer. In those days, the wait was 15 days because of the turnaround time. With today's communications, we should be like other states with an instant background check.

Like I said before, guns I bought in the 70's are still in the system, even ones I sold long before a PPT was required to use a dealer. DOJ requires specific info regarding the sale to remove them from your name.

Doheny
05-06-2012, 11:12 PM
Hold on a minute..!....I don't care what NUTBALL filed a TRO against someone..that doesn't erase your 4th Amendment rights.!!! Simply refuse a SEARCH.

I suggest we learn to FLEX OUT RIGHTS.!

I also recommend EVERYBODY get one of these Doormats.



So you gf files a TRO on you...a few days later she comes over and you guys get into a shouting match. She calls the cops, saying that you threated to shoot her...chances are your house is getting searched whether you agree to it or not.

My occupation takes me to a lotta people's houses under less than desirable circumstances. I've seen a handful of those doormats and they've all been at dirtbag's houses.

Just sayin'...