PDA

View Full Version : Question about "The Judge"


Flying Sig
05-05-2012, 12:06 AM
I know it's perfectly legal to own high cap mag "parts kits", or an molested lower/upper if they aren't attached, etc... but what about this.... Can I own a Taurus Judge that is in pieces (cylinder removed, etc)? Would there be any constructive possession issues or would it still be considered a short barreled shotgun in the eyes of the CA DOJ?

Digital_Boy
05-05-2012, 12:13 AM
Not a lawyer, but since the Judge is a pistol, I'd think just removing the cylinder wouldn't cut it from a legal standpoint, any more than breaking a named "assault weapon" into separate upper and lower halves would protect you from being charged with possession of an unregistered "assault weapon". If you're in possession of the frame, you're in possession of the complete gun in the eyes of the law, thus you're in hot water.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
05-05-2012, 12:44 AM
No. Your answer is in this thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=405996), post #9. The code section numbers have changed (and I'm too lazy at this time of night to look them up for you), but CA still has constructive possession with respect to SBS.

Carnivore
05-05-2012, 2:00 AM
Since they don't sell a pistol as a "parts kit" you would have to buy and then DROS over a complete pistol first before you could make it into a "parts kit" anyway. Well unless you want to mill out a frame on your own.

Quiet
05-05-2012, 2:36 AM
No. Your answer is in this thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=405996), post #9. The code section numbers have changed (and I'm too lazy at this time of night to look them up for you), but CA still has constructive possession with respect to SBS.

For those that are too lazy to click on the link, here's a quick summary with the updated penal codes...

The Taurus Judge, and similar .410/.45LC pistols, are classified as SBS under CA's SBS laws.
This is because it is a firearm that fires a shotgun shell and has:
1. a barrel length less than 18" [PC 17180(a)]
2. an overall length less than 26" [PC 17180(b)]

Because it is considered a SBS, CA's constructive possession laws concerning SBS apply. [PC 17180(e)]

Therefore, possessing a Taurus Judge dissassembled into pieces would result in an unregistered SBS charge (state felony). [PC 33210]


Penal Code 17180
As used in Sections 16530 and 16640, Sections 17720 to 17730, inclusive, Section 17740, Article 1 (commencing with Section 27500) of Chapter 4 of Division 6 of Title 4, and Article 1 (commencing with Section 33210) of Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title 4, "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(a) A firearm that is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(b) A firearm that has an overall length of less than 26 inches and that is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(c) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(d) Any device that may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive.
(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

Penal Code 33210
Except as expressly provided in Sections 33215 to 33225, inclusive, and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, and solely in accordance with those provisions, no person may manufacture, import into this state, keep for sale, offer for sale, give, lend, or possess any short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun. Nothing else in any provision listed in Section 16580 shall be construed as authorizing the manufacture, importation into the state, keeping for sale, offering for sale, or giving, lending, or possession of any short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun.

Capybara
05-05-2012, 9:03 AM
Why not just get the NFA trust and jump through all of the hoops if you are intent on owning a Judge in California? It has been done and there are Californians who legally own the Judge.

G60
05-05-2012, 9:21 AM
In this case, CA law is actually doing us a favor :P

QQQ
05-05-2012, 9:36 AM
Yup. I know that in my neck of the woods, OC Armory carries the Judge with an extra grip on the front and can sell it to you as an NFA AOW or something like that. I'm sure there are other shops that do the same.

Capybara
05-05-2012, 9:39 AM
Yup. It is a PITA but I would do it if I really wanted one bad enough, the peace of mind that the tax stamp will give you is worth it.

ENVYGREEN
05-05-2012, 10:49 AM
If you're going to all that work at least make it a governor. :thumbsup:

Calm Down
05-05-2012, 1:30 PM
Has there been any case law regarding the Judge's legality in California or has it just been presumed that it's a SBS under California law? I seem to recall every AR style lower being considered an assault weapon in California until people took a closer look at the statute and determined them not to be assault weapons. Case law later confirmed their legality based on features or models.

Quiet
05-05-2012, 9:54 PM
Has there been any case law regarding the Judge's legality in California or has it just been presumed that it's a SBS under California law? I seem to recall every AR style lower being considered an assault weapon in California until people took a closer look at the statute and determined them not to be assault weapons. Case law later confirmed their legality based on features or models.

The .410/.45LC = CA SBS was in effect years before the Taurus Judge was created. I believe it started in the 1980s, was defintely in effect by 1992.
Over the Thompson Center Contender pistol and the 10" .410/.45LC barrel.
Then later on with the MIL Inc Thunder Five, which was in production from 1992-1998.

Gunsmith Dan
05-05-2012, 11:08 PM
I agree with Calm Down:

Has ANYONE really checked if this is really illegal.

The term shotgun is defined as a "Long Gun" in California law and I do not remember ever seeing or hearing about a normal shotgun built to shoot like a revolver. Try shooting a .45 LC in a regular shotgun chambered for .410 ...... not gonna work to well ... in fact might go BOOM in the wrong place!!

Pump action - Yes

Lever action - Yes

Bolt action - Yes

Double barrel - Yes

Semi Auto - yes

Full Auto - Yes

but never heard of anyone ever making a revolver type shotgun into mass production. Street sweepers and the such with drum magazines do not count as they are actually semi auto shotguns.

Then you have Glaser safety slugs that are shotgun pellets glued together for pistols and legal in California....... does shooting them in your handgun make it a SBS too?!?!?

Quiet
05-05-2012, 11:42 PM
I agree with Calm Down:

Has ANYONE really checked if this is really illegal.

The term shotgun is defined as a "Long Gun" in California law and I do not remember ever seeing or hearing about a normal shotgun built to shoot like a revolver. Try shooting a .45 LC in a regular shotgun chambered for .410 ...... not gonna work to well ... in fact might go BOOM in the wrong place!!

Pump action - Yes

Lever action - Yes

Bolt action - Yes

Double barrel - Yes

Semi Auto - yes

Full Auto - Yes

but never heard of anyone ever making a revolver type shotgun into mass production. Street sweepers and the such with drum magazines do not count as they are actually semi auto shotguns.

Then you have Glaser safety slugs that are shotgun pellets glued together for pistols and legal in California....... does shooting them in your handgun make it a SBS too?!?!?

Per CA laws, a firearm that is defined as a SBS does not have to meet the definition of a shotgun and handguns can also be classified as SBR/SBS.

The key is if it fires a shotgun shell and has a barrel length less than 18" and/or an overall length less than 26", then under CA laws it is a SBS.
Shotshells and Glaser safety slugs are not shotgun shells.

The Armstel Stryker-12/SWD Streetsweeper shotguns are not semi-auto, they function like DAO revolvers.

Calm Down
05-06-2012, 9:13 AM
Per CA laws, a firearm that is defined as a SBS does not have to meet the definition of a shotgun and handguns can also be classified as SBR/SBS.

The key is if it fires a shotgun shell and has a barrel length less than 18" and/or an overall length less than 26", then under CA laws it is a SBS.
Shotshells and Glaser safety slugs are not shotgun shells.

The Armstel Stryker-12/SWD Streetsweeper shotguns are not semi-auto, they function like DAO revolvers.

Please define shotgun shell.

In my opinion, the most valid argument in support of the Judge being legal revolves around the definition of “shotgun shell”. The CCI shot shells would in essence turn and handgun into a SBS. What is the difference between a .410 shot shell with #9 shot and a .45lc shot shell with #9 shot?

http://www.armscor.thegunsource.com/DisplayPic.aspx?PIC=491952 http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/images_thumbs/rioc3665.jpg


(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:

(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.

(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.

(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.


When we look at U.S.C. Title 26 Section 5845, we see the definition:

(d) Shotgun
The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell.

On its face, one would say I’ve just proven that the Judge is illegal. That’s why we must examine the definition a bit more. A destructive device is defined as:

(f) Destructive device
The term “destructive device” means
(1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas
(A) bomb,
(B) grenade,
(C) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces,
(D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce,
(E) mine, or
(F) similar device;
(2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;
and
(3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684 (2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.


By specifically identifying shotguns and shotgun shells in The California Penal Code and in federal code as having a diameter in excess of ½ inch, but allowing an exemption to be made if they are suitable for sporting purposes; only firearms or shot shells with a diameter in excess of ½ inch are applicable.

My opinion is this: A .410 shot shell fired from a pistol/ handgun is not a short-barreled shotgun because the diameter of the bore is not in excess of ½ inch.

CSACANNONEER
05-06-2012, 9:22 AM
Has there been any case law regarding the Judge's legality in California or has it just been presumed that it's a SBS under California law? I seem to recall every AR style lower being considered an assault weapon in California until people took a closer look at the statute and determined them not to be assault weapons. Case law later confirmed their legality based on features or models.

No presumption needed when it is CLEARLY defined in the law.

Please define shotgun shell.


"A shell designed to be fired from a shotgun."

A "shotshell" is designed to be fired from a gun chambered in a round primarily used in rifled firearm. Yea, I have a .22lr smoothbore and there are 9mm Flobert smoothbores but, they are not the norm.

Quiet
05-06-2012, 12:13 PM
"A shell designed to be fired from a shotgun."

A "shotshell" is designed to be fired from a gun chambered in a round primarily used in rifled firearm. Yea, I have a .22lr smoothbore and there are 9mm Flobert smoothbores but, they are not the norm.

What he said.

Root66
05-06-2012, 1:56 PM
Why not just get the NFA trust and jump through all of the hoops if you are intent on owning a Judge in California? It has been done and there are Californians who legally own the Judge.

Please elaborate for a newbie.

Quiet
05-06-2012, 2:14 PM
Please elaborate for a newbie.
BATFE approved AOW (except for pen guns) are CA legal and exempt from CA's SBR/SBS laws.

What Capybra is talking about is establishing a NFA trust and acquiring a Taurus Judge that has been made into an AOW.

Capybara
05-06-2012, 4:36 PM
Thanks for answering that Quiet, have not been on much today.

Pretty much the only way to acquire an AOW in California is to start an NFA Trust as I can't think of or have heard of many CLEOs in the state signing off on an AOW. AOWs are pretty much the only NFA weapons that an average person can acquire in this state.

If you supply weapons as an armorer to the Hollywood studios, you can get your hands on almost anything here, I have been to Angeles with an armorer and he brought a Glock 18, a AK-47 and an M-16, all full auto of course. But for us mere mortals, an AOW is it in California, pretty much a pistol gripped short barrel shotgun or a modified Judge. There are a few other possibilities such as C&R SBSs or SBRs but they are nearly impossible to find for sale. I toyed with the idea of a flashlight gun but it would have to be SSE'd and nobody is setup to SSE a flashlight gun and I would need a CCW to make it even halfway worthwhile and I don't have a CCW.

So the bottom line is, if you want to do enough paperwork, start an NFA trust, http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/ can find an FFL qualified and willing, you can legally own a Judge in California. But it is going to be a hassle and it is going to cost you a good chunk of change. I like the idea of the Judge but after watching Hickok45's clip on it on YouTube, I am not enamored of a Judge to actually jump through all of the hoops. It's a pistol that shoots .410 shells, big deal. YMMV.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
05-06-2012, 11:14 PM
Quiet, thanks for doing the legwork. You da man! Guess I'm just as obsolete now as those old timers when I first got started who still referred to DUIces as "502s". :D

Calm Down
05-06-2012, 11:44 PM
No presumption needed when it is CLEARLY defined in the law.



"A shell designed to be fired from a shotgun."

A "shotshell" is designed to be fired from a gun chambered in a round primarily used in rifled firearm. Yea, I have a .22lr smoothbore and there are 9mm Flobert smoothbores but, they are not the norm.

By you own 'clear' definition; a Judge is not a SBS. It has a rifled bore and it is not a shotgun. The only definition found in the California Penal Code describes a shotgun shell as being greater than 1/2 in diameter and exempt from the category of destructive device. All rounds of ammo that expel shot are shotshells.

My opinion is that only shotshells greater than 1/2 inch have been deemed "shotgun shells" thus the judge does not fire a shotgun shell; it fires a .410 dia. shotshell.

I understand that my interpretation would make any pistol a SBS under California law since a shotshell can be made in almost all calibers. That is the point of my posts. The law is too vague.

I'm still looking for case law and not mere opinion to show that .410 is a shotgun shell.

I know of one arrest for possession of a Judge. The case has not gone to trial yet, but when it does; I'll be anxiously awaiting for the verdict.

Capybara
05-07-2012, 6:34 AM
Yikes, non of us want to be a test case. Do you know if the suspect had gone the AOW/NFA route or was it just that he bought in a Judge from out of state and got busted?


I know of one arrest for possession of a Judge. The case has not gone to trial yet, but when it does; I'll be anxiously awaiting for the verdict.

ke6guj
05-07-2012, 6:49 AM
By you own 'clear' definition; a Judge is not a SBS. It has a rifled bore and it is not a shotgun. The only definition found in the California Penal Code describes a shotgun shell as being greater than 1/2 in diameter and exempt from the category of destructive device. All rounds of ammo that expel shot are shotshells.

nothing in the PC says that an SBS must first be a shotgun in order to be an SBS. As long as it can fire a shotgun shell, it is considered an SBS if it is <18"/<"26. There is no requirement that meet the defintion of a shotgun first. whether or not it has a rifled bore is not a determining factor if it is an SBS.


Federal law is different. it must first be a shotgun before it can be an SBS. That is how we have the legal definition of AOWs, items that look like an SBS, but aren't since the host gun was never a shotgun in the first place.

DiscoBayJoe
05-07-2012, 6:49 AM
What would you need on a judge to make it an AOW?

ke6guj
05-07-2012, 6:51 AM
What would you need on a judge to make it an AOW?

A verticle forward grip, a smooth bore barrel, or a wallet holster would make it an AOW.

DiscoBayJoe
05-07-2012, 6:58 AM
I have a friend who wanted one. If you remove it from the wallet holster at the range did it become and illegal SBS or does it constructivly remain an AOW?

dantodd
05-07-2012, 7:13 AM
I have a friend who wanted one. If you remove it from the wallet holster at the range did it become and illegal SBS or does it constructivly remain an AOW?

The tax stamp makes it an AOW which makes it exempt from the CA SBS laws. The configuration can be temporarily changed without removing it from AOW status. Exactly how temporary the change can be is not clearly defined and since it is an ATF issue rather than a CA DOJ issue there is little incentive for temporary to be defined Ina manner detrimental to our purposes.

Quiet
05-07-2012, 7:54 AM
nothing in the PC says that an SBS must first be a shotgun in order to be an SBS. As long as it can fire a shotgun shell, it is considered an SBS if it is <18"/<"26. There is no requirement that meet the defintion of a shotgun first. whether or not it has a rifled bore is not a determining factor if it is an SBS.


Federal law is different. it must first be a shotgun before it can be an SBS. That is how we have the legal definition of AOWs, items that look like an SBS, but aren't since the host gun was never a shotgun in the first place.

CA law also states a "handgun" can also be defined as SBS/SBR. [PC 16640(b)]

Penal Code 16640
(a) As used in this part, "handgun" means any pistol, revolver, or firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(b) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun" from also being found to be a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun.

CSACANNONEER
05-07-2012, 7:56 AM
By you own 'clear' definition; a Judge is not a SBS. It has a rifled bore and it is not a shotgun. The only definition found in the California Penal Code describes a shotgun shell as being greater than 1/2 in diameter and exempt from the category of destructive device. All rounds of ammo that expel shot are shotshells.

My opinion is that only shotshells greater than 1/2 inch have been deemed "shotgun shells" thus the judge does not fire a shotgun shell; it fires a .410 dia. shotshell.

I understand that my interpretation would make any pistol a SBS under California law since a shotshell can be made in almost all calibers. That is the point of my posts. The law is too vague.

I'm still looking for case law and not mere opinion to show that .410 is a shotgun shell.

I know of one arrest for possession of a Judge. The case has not gone to trial yet, but when it does; I'll be anxiously awaiting for the verdict.

I think you're confusing California's clear definition of a SBS and my definition of a "shotgun shell". The Judge is chambered and marked in .410, which is a shotgun chambering. Now, if a Judge was only chambered in .45LC and could not chamber a 2 1/2" .410 round, it would not be a SBS under Ca law. You seem to be trying to use logic to understand Ca law. That is your mistake. You need to read the exact wording of the laws and NOT use any common sense or expert analysis when trying to understand them.

Decoligny
05-07-2012, 8:32 AM
By you own 'clear' definition; a Judge is not a SBS. It has a rifled bore and it is not a shotgun. The only definition found in the California Penal Code describes a shotgun shell as being greater than 1/2 in diameter and exempt from the category of destructive device. All rounds of ammo that expel shot are shotshells.

My opinion is that only shotshells greater than 1/2 inch have been deemed "shotgun shells" thus the judge does not fire a shotgun shell; it fires a .410 dia. shotshell.

I understand that my interpretation would make any pistol a SBS under California law since a shotshell can be made in almost all calibers. That is the point of my posts. The law is too vague.

I'm still looking for case law and not mere opinion to show that .410 is a shotgun shell.

I know of one arrest for possession of a Judge. The case has not gone to trial yet, but when it does; I'll be anxiously awaiting for the verdict.

Under California law, a firearm does not have to meet the definition of a "shotgun" in order to be classified as a "short-barreled shotgun".

It is a title that is specific to itself. Just like a certain animal doesn't need to be a "Cat" in order to be called a "Catfish".

In CA law, "short-barreled shotgun" has its own distinct definition that is seperate and completely unrelated to any other definition containing the word "shotgun". It is not dependent on any other definition.

(a), (b), and (c) below are all "short-barreled shotguns". Only (c) needs to meet the legal definition of "shotgun".

Penal Code 17180
As used in Sections 16530 and 16640, Sections 17720 to 17730, inclusive, Section 17740, Article 1 (commencing with Section 27500) of Chapter 4 of Division 6 of Title 4, and Article 1 (commencing with Section 33210) of Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title 4, "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:

(a) A firearm that is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.

(b) A firearm that has an overall length of less than 26 inches and that is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.

(c) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.

(d) Any device that may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive.

(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

ke6guj
05-07-2012, 7:41 PM
Under California law, a firearm does not have to meet the definition of a "shotgun" in order to be classified as a "short-barreled shotgun".

It is a title that is specific to itself. Just like a certain animal doesn't need to be a "Cat" in order to be called a "Catfish".

In CA law, "short-barreled shotgun" has its own distinct definition that is seperate and completely unrelated to any other definition containing the word "shotgun". It is not dependent on any other definition.I've have been trying to come up with the right analogy for a while. That is almost perfect.

Calm Down
05-07-2012, 10:17 PM
CA law also states a "handgun" can also be defined as SBS/SBR. [PC 16640(b)]

Penal Code 16640
(a) As used in this part, "handgun" means any pistol, revolver, or firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(b) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun" from also being found to be a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun.

I fully understand that the definition of "shotgun" and "short barreled shotgun" are different and I understand that a "handgun" can be a "shotgun".

I understand this because I'm the proud owner of a Remington 12ga AOW. It is an AOW because it is, "...a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell."

Under California it is a short-barreled shotgun but allowed because of it's federal status as an AOW.

In 2000 we all wanted a definition of "detachable magazine"; we ultimately got one. We all wanted a definition of a "pistol grip"; we ultimately got one.

Every element of a law must be examined. If one element is not met; the crime can not have occurred. All I'm asking is that we place our preconceived ideas of what a "shotgun shell" is aside and examine what is codified in statute. As of right now, I have not read anything specific that defines a "shotgun shell". The only thing close to a definition of a "shotgun shell" is described under the definition of a "destructive device" in the California Penal Code and United States Code which describes a shotgun shell being exempt from the >.50cal. (fed)> .60 cal (state).

Just provide me a legal defination of a "shotgun shell" and; I promiss I will shut up. (provided it dosen't work in my favor.)

Yikes, non of us want to be a test case. Do you know if the suspect had gone the AOW/NFA route or was it just that he bought in a Judge from out of state and got busted?

In this case the gun was purchased out of state and the owner moved to California with the firearm. It was never an AOW.

johnny_22
05-08-2012, 6:59 AM
In this case, CA law is actually doing us a favor :P


Rossi Circuit Judge is more accurate and fun! After getting the Rossi, I lost my desire to get a Taurus Judge.

Root66
05-08-2012, 9:51 AM
What Capybra is talking about is establishing a NFA trust and acquiring a Taurus Judge that has been made into an AOW.

Sorry, I still don't get it....how is a Judge made into "any other weapon"?

12voltguy
05-08-2012, 10:02 AM
Sorry, I still don't get it....how is a Judge made into "any other weapon"?

by adding a vertical forward pistol grip & paying the nfa tax
this grip can be takin off & on as wanted
it does not need to stay on all the time
so you could do this to get it & put it on your ccw if you wanted.

the CLEO signoff requirement is being dropped on new forms
so you won't have to get a nfa trust to go around that.
hoping they get that done within 12 months
I want a super shorty

http://www.serbu.com/top/super_shorty_870.jpg
don't think my county will let me put it on my ccw,lol
holding only 2+ 1 is a bit limited, but I can carry 4 guns on my permit, but it's a handgun permit so aow shotgun don't fit,lol

vincewarde
05-08-2012, 12:27 PM
...... buy a .44 mag or .45 Colt and load shotshells for it. Almost the same thing and a lot less hassle.

MudCamper
05-08-2012, 3:22 PM
In this case, CA law is actually doing us a favor :P

LOL. Agreed. I've never understood the appeal to the Judge. It's a 45 LC. OK. I like 45 LC. I own a Ruger Bisley in that caliber. But 410 shotgun? That's the last thing I'd ever want to use for self defense. A 22 LR is more lethal.

Glock22Fan
05-08-2012, 3:48 PM
IIRC, and I don't have the link here, but Chuck Michel's firm has done an analysis that said, again IIRC, that although the Judge is on the face of it illegal, there are some grounds for challenging that if it ever came to court.

I'm pretty sure it is on their website, but I'm busy supposedly doing something else (called work).

P.S. You can buy a Charter Arms Bulldog (may not be on the roster, but there are older ones available for PPT at reasonable prices) in .44spl, and you can buy .44 spl shotshells from CCI. They work great on rattlers, probably would on a two legged snake as well. Alternate with 44.spl hollowpoint.

Why not use this?

Calm Down
05-08-2012, 6:18 PM
IIRC, and I don't have the link here, but Chuck Michel's firm has done an analysis that said, again IIRC, that although the Judge is on the face of it illegal, there are some grounds for challenging that if it ever came to court.

I'm pretty sure it is on their website, but I'm busy supposedly doing something else (called work).

P.S. You can buy a Charter Arms Bulldog (may not be on the roster, but there are older ones available for PPT at reasonable prices) in .44spl, and you can buy .44 spl shotshells from CCI. They work great on rattlers, probably would on a two legged snake as well. Alternate with 44.spl hollowpoint.

Why not use this?

Here's the link. I think Mr. Michael did a disservice to the gun community by not thoroughly examining the language of the law. He would have better suited California residents by pointing out the ambiguity of the law rather than providing such an opinion. I'm not trying to insult the man or his firm; they have probably done more for us than any other law firm in the state.

http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/MEMO.pdf

dantodd
05-08-2012, 6:35 PM
http://www.serbu.com/top/super_shorty_870.jpg
don't think my county will let me put it on my ccw,lol
holding only 2+ 1 is a bit limited, but I can carry 4 guns on my permit, but it's a handgun permit so aow shotgun don't fit,lol

it is actually a license to carry a concealable and concealed firearm. An AOW is a concealable firearm. Good luck with your issuing authority though.

Librarian
05-08-2012, 8:38 PM
Every element of a law must be examined. If one element is not met; the crime can not have occurred. All I'm asking is that we place our preconceived ideas of what a "shotgun shell" is aside and examine what is codified in statute. As of right now, I have not read anything specific that defines a "shotgun shell". The only thing close to a definition of a "shotgun shell" is described under the definition of a "destructive device" in the California Penal Code and United States Code which describes a shotgun shell being exempt from the >.50cal. (fed)> .60 cal (state).



So, help me out here.

I see where you're going; I agree that re-examining the elements can be beneficial.

But it is not the case that every common term must also have a definition in statutory law.
County of Monterey v. Madolora , 171 Cal.App.2d 840 is an example where the court used a dictionary definition to decide what is a vine. People v. Valentine (2001) , Cal.App.4th notes "We recognize several courts of appeal have approved the Webster's dictionary of duress...". People v. Fischetti (2008) , Cal.App.4th Supp. has "The "dictionary" definition of the word "system" (see, e.g., {Slip Opn. Page 2} Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (10th ed. 1993) p. 1194) does not comport with the trial court's analysis and conclusion..."

Even a relatively well known case at Calguns, People v. Clark(1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147 , 53 Cal.Rptr.2d 99 says The term "loaded" has a commonly understood meaning: "to put a load
or charge in (a device or piece of equipment) a gun" or "to put a
load on or in a carrier, device, or container; esp: to insert the
charge or cartridge into the chamber of a firearm." (Webster's New
Collegiate Dict. (1976) p. 674.) Under the commonly understood
meaning of the term "loaded," a firearm is "loaded" when a shell
or cartridge has been placed into a position from which it can be
fired; the shotgun is not "loaded" if the shell or cartridge is
stored elsewhere and not yet placed in a firing position. That is, courts are entirely happy to go to dictionary usage when the Legislature has failed to provide any special definition for a term (or, in the case of Clark, to reason that the definition it did supply was not at all common usage and therefore must have been describing something different than the usual understanding). Attempting to rely on a lack of a statutory definition does not seem a very promising line of attack.

What else might be a 'fixed shotgun shell' besides the common usage items one might find at Big 5 or Midway?

12voltguy
05-08-2012, 10:12 PM
it is actually a license to carry a concealable and concealed firearm. An AOW is a concealable firearm. Good luck with your issuing authority though.

in az mine said weapon & I did not have to list any
just read mine here says
ltc concealed pistol,revolver or other firearm.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm:)
had it 6 years never noticed that,lol

12voltguy
05-08-2012, 10:21 PM
...... buy a .44 mag or .45 Colt and load shotshells for it. Almost the same thing and a lot less hassle.

not even close
I have a 44 mag
& the shot shells at 10feet are useless
I can drop birds with my 410 at 50'+ easy

I wouldn't want shot with a judge with those disc & shot shells they make harmless,lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwgTfqCSloE&feature=plcp

Calm Down
05-09-2012, 9:31 PM
That is, courts are entirely happy to go to dictionary usage when the Legislature has failed to provide any special definition for a term (or, in the case of Clark, to reason that the definition it did supply was not at all common usage and therefore must have been describing something different than the usual understanding). Attempting to rely on a lack of a statutory definition does not seem a very promising line of attack.

What else might be a 'fixed shotgun shell' besides the common usage items one might find at Big 5 or Midway?

Well, what it might be, may be just as confusing as what it is. The court acknowledged what Webster's had defined was the accepted definition.

If we choose to go that route, we run into the differing definitions of "shotgun" vs. "short barreled shotgun" in the California Penal Code. We all know a shotgun to be "shoulder fired" and we know that specific verbiage was not put in the definition of "short barreled shotgun" as far as the California Penal Code is concerned.

I see a couple of ways to attack it.

Shotgun shell= a shell designed to be fired from a shotgun. (sounds simple but it opens a can of worms about being shoulder fired)
Or
Shotgun shell= a shell fill with shot designed to be fired from a firearm. (that makes any gun a shotgun)

Or (my favorite)

We must isolate the only two sections of code that utilize the exact verbiage "shotgun shell". The only sections I am aware of are the the California Penal Code and the United States Code definitions of "destructive devices" Each code specifically mentions a "shotgun" or "shotgun shell" as being exempt from being destructive devices though they are greater than .50" (fed) and .60" (state). By specifically exempting a shotgun and shotgun shell under these sections; one could argue that only firearms with bores greater than .50" and .60" can be considered shotguns unless they have smooth bores.

A jury, yes a test case, must be shown that this firearm is completely legal under federal law. They must be shown that due to a lack of verbiage in California law that causes vagueness; the firearm has been incorrectly labeled illegal.

Quiet
05-09-2012, 10:08 PM
Actually, under Federal laws, shotgun/shotgun shells with a bore of more than .5" diameter are not automatically exempt from being a DD. The US Attorney General has to specifically exempt that shotgun or shotgun shell because that particular shotgun/shotgun shell is of sporting purpose.

Since this only affects shotguns/shotgun shells with a bore of more than .5" dimameter, shotguns under a .5" diameter are automatically not considered DDs.
Whereas, shotguns with a bore of more than .5" diameter have to be specifically exempted by the US Gov.


18 USC 921
(a) As used in this chapter—
(4) The term “destructive device” means—
(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter;